Budgeting For Bribes

[imagineero]

Hi all,

Im coming to BKK next month for probably around 3 months to have dental work done (implants and crowns).  I wont be working.  I spent about 5 years living in south korea, where i got away just about, with murder.  The government, police, and people were so willing to bend every rule in the world for you that you start riding your unlicensed and unregistered 1000cc+sports bike to work drunk without a helmet in a bus lane at 250km/h without a helmet.  Then when they do catch up with you (after you fall off) the police help you to get home and pay for the damage on your bike, while apologising for the inconvenience.  

Japan was a similar experience, but spending 3 months in bali a few years ago was pretty much the exact opposite.  The people in power were desperate to recover their lost tourist revenue from bombings and what not and had really ramped up the shakedowns to previously unheard of proportions.  Spiking of drinks, robbings, 'fines' of all types, false imprisonment and planting of drugs in some cases.  It got to the point where i was spending more on bribes each day than i was spending on bike hire, accomodation and food combined.  And i was actually legitimate in bali with appropriate licenses, visas and insurance etc.  It got so bad that i made up a fake press pass and interrogated police on being stopped.  Even the customs guy in the airport tried to sting me for 'exporting culturally significant items' (they werent.  50c trinkets bought for family.  when i offered to surrender them he told me that if i didnt pay the 'export fee', he would have to detain me and i would miss my flight)

Where does thailand stand at the moment?  News in aus at the moment doesn't sound encouraging...  further to the recent case of the aus soccer mum getting hit for theft of a bar mat, a lot of people came forward with remarkably similar stories and related cash bribes of anywhere from $1000~$5,000 in discreet envelopes to pay for crimes as diverse as theft of a bar mat (at the exact same bar!?) to theft of a doughnut and other semi legitimate crimes.  The bribes involved were typically way higher than i would have guessed for a country where it's so cheap to live.  In many cases, imprisonment for up to 3 weeks came before the victims coughed up the cash, with no legal consultation or 'phone call'.

On this board I've read of 'stings' for littering, as well as shakedowns on bike riders for rego and licensing etc.  To me, a sting and a shakedown are 2 entirely different things.  In a sting, you're probably doing the wrong thing.  It might be a big no-no, or a little one, but the cops target you for cash.  In many cases they hit you for extra money, as a tourist, but there is usually some bargaining.  In all cases, the money goes into pockets.  In many cases, the 'fine' is less than what you really should have paid, which is not too bad of a deal if you know how to get to the right result.  A shakedown is similar to a sting, but you werent really doing anything wrong.  You get a 'fine' for something like "driving with your headlights on", or "not having written permits to be on this beach" etc, or it might even be a complete plant.  In some cases, these operations are elaborate; a staff member somewhere is paid to spike your drink, plant something on you and bring an allegation.  These tend to repeat at the same location.

I had planned on probably buying a bike and riding around the country a bit, and had looked into buying a long tail boat and going up the mekong to cambodia and laos (have since completely given up) or cruising round the islands on same (also completely given up).  A friend in BKK on a yacht has told me its very grey area with no titel on small boats, and likely to end up in prison with demands for money even with appropriate licenses. 

What Im wondering is, what to expect?  If Im riding round the country on a bike with registration, ownership and licensing, am i still likely to get stung?  If you're generally doing the right thing will you get away with a few months, or is it bad enough that you are going to get hit no matter what?  How much would you budget for bribes for various things for a 3 month period?

Thanks,

Shaun

[Texpat]

I drove from Pattaya to Nong Khai yesterday. I have a Thai license and my car is fully registered and insured.

I was pulled over four times and paid zero baht.

Thai police are snakes with legs. Obey the laws, stick to your convictions and pay them nothing.

Remember, the thing they fear most is work. I told one copper to take me to jail if he was convinced I broke a law. He wasn't and I drove off in five minutes. Each of the remaining encounters lasted only a few minutes.

Be polite but firm. You don't have to play their game. They're not interested in enforcing laws -- only in lining their pockets.

If you ride an unregistered bike, all bets are off. You can't hold any high ground, and deserve to be manhandled. Good luck.

[Maestro]

A nonsensical post and the reply to it have been deleted.

--

Maestro

[Jungian]

I have never paid anything and I don't recall ever being asked to pay anything, then again I tend to be a law abiding person. The only thing I ever got from a Thai police officer was a smile.

[jumnien]

I budget about 200 baht per six months for petty bribes here in Thailand. In your case, from the sounds of your attitude, I'd budget about 300,000 to get you through the three months.

[phetaroi]

I budget about 200 baht per six months for petty bribes here in Thailand. In your case, from the sounds of your attitude, I'd budget about 300,000 to get you through the three months.

Is the OP for real?????

I can only say this -- I've only just started to live here, but since 1987 I've visited on a yearly basis for 3-7 weeks (usually 7 weeks at a time). On each of those visits except the first I've rented a car for an upcountry trip of 3-10 days. Stopped once, legitimately, no fine except for a smile. I walk around Bangkok a lot. Never stopped for littering or any other reason. I'm not naive. Sooner or later something will happen. But it's not high on my worry list.

[imagineero]

This is actually a legitimate enquiry.....

If you couldnt read between the lines; I wasnt actually planning on breaking any laws while in thailand, simply hoping to get my teeth fixed up and possibly throw a semi adventurous holiday in the mix. Im staring down the barrel of about AU$15k worth of dental work if done in thailand, or another 10k on top of that if done in aus. I'd much rather enjoy the 3 months in another country where i can afford to live cheaply and can possibly enjoy some bike riding, travelling and sailing if possible. Its sort of in a delicate ballance though, and if huge amounts of bribes or jail time are part of the equation then that's likely to tip it in favour of not having the work done in thailand.

I really dont know what the media is showing in thailand, but o/s it isnt great. It started with the riots and closure of the airport, then the further riots and cancellation of international government meetings, further riots, some deaths, then the arrest and jailing of an aussie mother over the theft of a bar mat. after that a lot more stories came out.

I dont believe the media much, and after talking to thai friends who are living in BKK they have told me everything was way over stated and life is carrying on as usual. but then, the media probably understates things in thailand too. The aus media is reccomending not to travel in thailand at the moment, which sort of encourages me to go. I tend to think the truth is aways somewhere in the middle, but it's always good to know what you are walking into. Especially if you are going to be stuck there for some time unable to talk or eat well with half a mouth full of implants.

Ive had some time in eastern european countries where things were really tough, and some time on easy street. I know which one I'd rather be on.

Thanks for all advice,

Shaun

[MJo]

Sure, and are you sure you are not sporting one these tattoos in your forehead ?

And who knocked you teeths out, the coppers in Indo ?

Seriously, there is no need to "budget" anything for pribes in thailand if you behave yourself. While driving you might be hit with occasional 200 baht but then again you always have the option to decline and take the ticket which you obviously do not need to pay as you are short term visitor. Just make sure you do not give any aus licence etc to them.

[carriemai]

I used to just drive straight at them and when they saw I wasn't going to stop they'd just jump out of the way.

They don't ever try to stop me now.

[rayong09]

Everything is bigger in Texas even the bull shit.

[monkfish]

Can see you are getting a lot of good advice from the locals!

We often drive to Surin which is about a 6 hour drive, normally get stopped 2-4 times each way.

Can't imagine how some expats living here 20 years or whatever never get stopped? Eh even Thai's get stopped but they don't??

Anyhow My miss's tactic is to ask what she did wrong and then say nothing just leave the BIB standing there talking to himself, normally they wave you on after 5 minutes.

If you want to be on your way quick and not take any risks 200bt is normally accepted. So say average 3x 200bt per day = 600bt a day driving.

Don't let em know you are a tourist cos they'll know you waqnt to be on your way and may want more.

Try to look and sound like an expat biker and you should be fine. Great em with a quick sawadee crap etc. shave your head etc.

Another tip you may want to get a Thai DL to through at em which believe is possible on a 3 month visa.

[Texpat]

Another tip you may want to get a Thai DL to through at em which believe is possible on a 3 month visa.

I'd say that is bad advice.

They're more likely to decide to "keep" your Thai license with them as hostage. You can collect it from the local police station in three months, or you can pay a bribe now. This happened to me on the elevated tollway near Don Muang.

If you give them a foreign license, they're less likely to try to keep it.

I have 5-year car and moto licenses, but always offer them an expired California license.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Texpat

[CarlBkk]

I drove from Pattaya to Nong Khai yesterday. I have a Thai license and my car is fully registered and insured.

I was pulled over four times and paid zero baht.

Thai police are snakes with legs. Obey the laws, stick to your convictions and pay them nothing.

Remember, the thing they fear most is work. I told one copper to take me to jail if he was convinced I broke a law. He wasn't and I drove off in five minutes. Each of the remaining encounters lasted only a few minutes.

Be polite but firm. You don't have to play their game. They're not interested in enforcing laws -- only in lining their pockets.

If you ride an unregistered bike, all bets are off. You can't hold any high ground, and deserve to be manhandled. Good luck.

A great post and sound advice. Should be posted in every "should I or shouldn't I?" bribe thread.

Been living in Thailand 8 years, driving for 2. Paid a total of 700 baht in on the spot fines, my own mistakes.

[ballbreaker]

I drove from Pattaya to Nong Khai yesterday. I have a Thai license and my car is fully registered and insured.

I was pulled over four times and paid zero baht.

Thai police are snakes with legs. Obey the laws, stick to your convictions and pay them nothing.

Remember, the thing they fear most is work. I told one copper to take me to jail if he was convinced I broke a law. He wasn't and I drove off in five minutes. Each of the remaining encounters lasted only a few minutes.

Be polite but firm. You don't have to play their game. They're not interested in enforcing laws -- only in lining their pockets.

If you ride an unregistered bike, all bets are off. You can't hold any high ground, and deserve to be manhandled. Good luck.

A great post and sound advice. Should be posted in every "should I or shouldn't I?" bribe thread.

Been living in Thailand 8 years, driving for 2. Paid a total of 700 baht in on the spot fines, my own mistakes.

Agree with these post. I've been living here 6 years and driving for 6 and paid only one legit ticket, which I deserved.. All other times I politely refused to pay their bribe and was sent on my way.

[Jimjim]

In four years of living in Thailand, only had to pay 500 baht to the policeman to get out of a ticket (I had run a red light in Bangkok right when it turned red, I was in the wrong but thought I was gonna make it). Ticket should have been 300 baht at that time, and other drivers told me they gave only 100-200 baht to get out of a ticket, so I was way over-charged.

[bkkjames]

There is a pecking order when it comes to being stopped while driving.

Target 1, motorbikes and farangs on them in touristy places like samui and phuket

Target 2, old trucks that look like they will fall apart at any moment, bonus point for having blacked out windows

Target 3, taxi cabs, not really an issue unless you are thinking of supplementing your income while here

Target 4, farangs driving honda city or equivelent, let's face it, if that's all u can afford, chances are you are not that connected

Target 5, forturners, instantly says I have cash in pocket and prepared to pony up because of potentially missed t-times.

However, all is not lost. The key to being able to drive "bribe worry free" is to get yourself a 7 series or E class, preferably with ex soldier as a driver. Guaranteed to intimidate even the most jaded traffic cop. Additionally, the best parking spots in front of hotels, restaurants, curtain motels all magically open up-even comes with free salutes from rent a cops.

Forget the bike.

[mistersteven]

Hi all,

Im coming to BKK next month for probably around 3 months to have dental work done (implants and crowns). I wont be working. I spent about 5 years living in south korea, where i got away just about, with murder. The government, police, and people were so willing to bend every rule in the world for you that you start riding your unlicensed and unregistered 1000cc+sports bike to work drunk without a helmet in a bus lane at 250km/h without a helmet. Then when they do catch up with you (after you fall off) the police help you to get home and pay for the damage on your bike, while apologising for the inconvenience.

Japan was a similar experience, but spending 3 months in bali a few years ago was pretty much the exact opposite. The people in power were desperate to recover their lost tourist revenue from bombings and what not and had really ramped up the shakedowns to previously unheard of proportions. Spiking of drinks, robbings, 'fines' of all types, false imprisonment and planting of drugs in some cases. It got to the point where i was spending more on bribes each day than i was spending on bike hire, accomodation and food combined. And i was actually legitimate in bali with appropriate licenses, visas and insurance etc. It got so bad that i made up a fake press pass and interrogated police on being stopped. Even the customs guy in the airport tried to sting me for 'exporting culturally significant items' (they werent. 50c trinkets bought for family. when i offered to surrender them he told me that if i didnt pay the 'export fee', he would have to detain me and i would miss my flight)

Where does thailand stand at the moment? News in aus at the moment doesn't sound encouraging... further to the recent case of the aus soccer mum getting hit for theft of a bar mat, a lot of people came forward with remarkably similar stories and related cash bribes of anywhere from $1000~$5,000 in discreet envelopes to pay for crimes as diverse as theft of a bar mat (at the exact same bar!?) to theft of a doughnut and other semi legitimate crimes. The bribes involved were typically way higher than i would have guessed for a country where it's so cheap to live. In many cases, imprisonment for up to 3 weeks came before the victims coughed up the cash, with no legal consultation or 'phone call'.

On this board I've read of 'stings' for littering, as well as shakedowns on bike riders for rego and licensing etc. To me, a sting and a shakedown are 2 entirely different things. In a sting, you're probably doing the wrong thing. It might be a big no-no, or a little one, but the cops target you for cash. In many cases they hit you for extra money, as a tourist, but there is usually some bargaining. In all cases, the money goes into pockets. In many cases, the 'fine' is less than what you really should have paid, which is not too bad of a deal if you know how to get to the right result. A shakedown is similar to a sting, but you werent really doing anything wrong. You get a 'fine' for something like "driving with your headlights on", or "not having written permits to be on this beach" etc, or it might even be a complete plant. In some cases, these operations are elaborate; a staff member somewhere is paid to spike your drink, plant something on you and bring an allegation. These tend to repeat at the same location.

I had planned on probably buying a bike and riding around the country a bit, and had looked into buying a long tail boat and going up the mekong to cambodia and laos (have since completely given up) or cruising round the islands on same (also completely given up). A friend in BKK on a yacht has told me its very grey area with no titel on small boats, and likely to end up in prison with demands for money even with appropriate licenses.

What Im wondering is, what to expect? If Im riding round the country on a bike with registration, ownership and licensing, am i still likely to get stung? If you're generally doing the right thing will you get away with a few months, or is it bad enough that you are going to get hit no matter what? How much would you budget for bribes for various things for a 3 month period?

Thanks,

Shaun

and they said culture was dead .

[mistersteven]

There is a pecking order when it comes to being stopped while driving.

Target 1, motorbikes and farangs on them in touristy places like samui and phuket

Target 2, old trucks that look like they will fall apart at any moment, bonus point for having blacked out windows

Target 3, taxi cabs, not really an issue unless you are thinking of supplementing your income while here

Target 4, farangs driving honda city or equivelent, let's face it, if that's all u can afford, chances are you are not that connected

Target 5, forturners, instantly says I have cash in pocket and prepared to pony up because of potentially missed t-times.

However, all is not lost. The key to being able to drive "bribe worry free" is to get yourself a 7 series or E class, preferably with ex soldier as a driver. Guaranteed to intimidate even the most jaded traffic cop. Additionally, the best parking spots in front of hotels, restaurants, curtain motels all magically open up-even comes with free salutes from rent a cops.

Forget the bike.

comedian and bang on .

funny .

top banana .

[spysee]

Some amusing posts, but I have never been pulled over yet being in Thailand, I have only been here 6 months and on a international driver's license that expired. I got a honda CRV and have been told they never pull over CRV drivers. Well thats what a drunk farang told me.

[wayfarer108]

Budget for bribes? Thirty-plus years in Thailand, and have never once paid a bribe in Bangkok. Pure luck, I'm sure, but as another poster pointed out, it's not all that common as long as you obey the laws here.

If Im riding round the country on a bike with registration, ownership and licensing, am i still likely to get stung?

What, by angry bees? If you break the law and are caught, you'll most likely either pay a fine or be let off with a warning. Sounds to me like you're asking for it. Or else just plain bitter and paranoid ....

Edited June 7, 2009 by wayfarer108

[12DrinkMore]

And here's my experience

10 years plus in Thailand, 170,000 kms on various bikes of various sizes, covering pretty much all over Thailand except BKK, which I try to avoid.

200 Baht bribe for jumping a red light at a T-junction. I was going straight on across the top of the "T", as many do. But my fault.

200 Baht fine for passenger not wearing a helmet in Udon Thani. And she had warned me NOT to go down the main road at that time in the afternoon. My fault.

Otherwise stopped maybe 3/4 times year, but always have a smile, "sawatdee krap" and the Thai driving license at the ready.

If you always wear a helmet, then 95% of problems can be avoided. No helmet, and you will be stopped and fined all the time.

And if you want to do the long tailed boat trip, instead of buying, which, unless you intend to live here, means the problem of selling into a well oversupplied market, why not do a deal for a month with an owner/driver? Especially in the low season these guys are desperate for income.

[BigSnake]

I used to just drive straight at them and when they saw I wasn't going to stop they'd just jump out of the way.

They don't ever try to stop me now.

Be careful dude on day TRIGGER HAPPY Harry maybe on duty,:Headline"Farang Attempted Run down of Police, Police fire in self defense"

[carriemai]

I used to just drive straight at them and when they saw I wasn't going to stop they'd just jump out of the way.

They don't ever try to stop me now.

Be careful dude on day TRIGGER HAPPY Harry maybe on duty,:Headline"Farang Attempted Run down of Police, Police fire in self defense"

Wuss!

[dillman]

Just use common sense, don't make enemies, and be cautious. Its all good to get info off the message boards but i think some people have a natural gift in increasing chances of being a target or getting into trouble.

For example, if you are too drunk or too lame (or both) to stay on your motorcycle yet it still seems like a good idea to ride home without a helmet on your 1000+ sport bike, maybe its time to downgrade to a 150 with some training wheels, or even better yet you can hail a cab. It will be safer for you and everyone around you.

[mysterybkk]

the main reason you will get pulled over on a bike here is not wearing a helmet. the second one will be temptation to run red lights.

honestly, i dont think there should be a law for people to wear helmets. you're only risking your life by not wearing one, so why even take the chance? i've been on bikes for a few years and i have never left the moo baan without a lid. the one time i crashed i wasnt wearing a helmet. it was because i was driving to the shop 200 meters from my house and a cat ran in front of my bike and i swerved too far.

i have no idea how serious you are being with your post but i will assume that their is some truth in what you are saying because i do actually know people who are like that. remember, if you dont value your life, at least value that of others and try not to endanger them. i'd hate to get clipped by you.

that being said, riding a bike here as a foreigner is no problem at all. you are not a prime target at all, and i've actually experienced the opposite, being ignored by the cops even though i very blatantly was speeding. you will not be able to get a license on a tourist visa, you need to have a house rental contract of one year or more. however, what you can do in order not to risk your real license is to go to khaosan and buy one of those forged foreign licenses and use that as a throw away in case they wanna take it from you.

[Theyreallrubbish]

There is a pecking order when it comes to being stopped while driving.

Target 1, motorbikes and farangs on them in touristy places like samui and phuket

Target 2, old trucks that look like they will fall apart at any moment, bonus point for having blacked out windows

Target 3, taxi cabs, not really an issue unless you are thinking of supplementing your income while here

Target 4, farangs driving honda city or equivelent, let's face it, if that's all u can afford, chances are you are not that connected

Target 5, forturners, instantly says I have cash in pocket and prepared to pony up because of potentially missed t-times.

However, all is not lost. The key to being able to drive "bribe worry free" is to get yourself a 7 series or E class, preferably with ex soldier as a driver. Guaranteed to intimidate even the most jaded traffic cop. Additionally, the best parking spots in front of hotels, restaurants, curtain motels all magically open up-even comes with free salutes from rent a cops.

Forget the bike.

Very good and very true.

I had an S class for a while (company car) and drove it myself around Bangkok.

The traffic police used to stop the traffic to wave me through junctions and salute. Presumably they thought someone REALLY important was in the back if he had a farang driver

I now have a fortuner and do get stopped a lot, but I only pay a fine about 1 time in 4. 1 time in 4 they see a white face and wave at me to keep going. 2 times in 4 they chat for a bit and tell me not to do again what I'd just done wrong. (almost always speeding on a highway)

[bkkc1976]

They're more likely to decide to "keep" your Thai license with them as hostage. You can collect it from the local police station in three months, or you can pay a bribe now. This happened to me on the elevated tollway near Don Muang.

If you give them a foreign license, they're less likely to try to keep it.

This happened to me a few month ago also on elevated toll way at don mueang.him told me him take my driving license,i told him i not care. he told me i have to go to the police station and it will be more expensive,i told him i not care. he told me give me 200 baht for good luck,i told him if him give me 400 baht for my good luck first i would give him 200 baht for his good luck. after this he didnt know anymore games and just let me leave!

<deleted>..ing bastards!