Elephants Working In Downtown Chiang Mai

[mp413]

I have seen a couple of elephants in Chiang Mai since I moved to Thailand but always from a distance. Tonight I saw one very up close as I was in one of the red public "buses" (trucks) in the Night Bazaar area. Cars were honking and the poor thing was trying to maneuver itself in its slow, lumbering way to avoid the traffic. It was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever seen; elephants just do not belong here.

I can't stop thinking about it - is there anything one can do to try to put an end to the practice of walking elephants through the city for tourist change? I am kind of surprised the Thai govt. allows it given their claimed reverence for elephants. Should I write to the Tourism Authority?

thanks for thoughts - I am sure I'm not the first person to have these concerns.

mp413

Edited June 12, 2009 by mp413

[sassienie]

I have also seen young elephants in the town being used for begging and being made to walk long distances without food and water.

The whole business makes me very upset and would like to see this practice banned by law and enforced.

Problem is it would be extremely difficult to protest against this for ex pats living in Thailand for obvious reasons.

The best method would be from groups working for a ban operating from outside of Thailand.

Perhaps a Thai citizen of credibility could bring this matter to the Wests attention.

[IanForbes]

I pretty much agree with the above posts. But, there are enough tourists who don't understand the situation and still buy food from the mahouts to feed to the elephants. It is similar to the poor little children forced to sell flowers in the bars at night. They stay up so late they can't attend school.

However, I doubt if the city elephants are harmed other than emotionally. Elephants are very smart and long lived. Their life span is about the same as a humans. I just hate seeing them chained to a peg for hours and hours. What a terrible existance.

If you ever visit an elephant training center the handlers there will tell you to never support the elephant handlers in the city. Unfortunately, neither the majority of Thais nor the authorities who could actually do something about it really care about animals.

The old and the new form of transportation...

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It's not even just for tourists like everyone seems to immediately assume. Occasionally there are crackdowns on this, and the only thing that happens is that they walk elephants in the outskirts of town, (not anywhere near tourist areas).

However, I doubt if the city elephants are harmed other than emotionally.

Elephant's feet aren't designed to walk on tarmac all night. Also they're at extreme risk of being hit by traffic late at night. That will harm them physically as well as emotionally.

Keeping things in perspective though, the abuse and exploitation of hilltribe kids selling flowers all night is probably the most pressing issue.

[kjhbigv]

Being a regular evening visitor to central Chiang Mai in the evening (with my GF!) I too have noticed over the past few weeks the elephant back in town. Actually, the government does take it 'quite' seriously and they are banned from central Chiang Mai and it's quite common knowledge!

The problem....easy.....tourists wanting to have photo's taken with it, buying food to feed it etc etc. I have seen many tourists almost ecstatic seeing the poor thing and can't wait to have their photo with it and pay for the priviledge!

Personally, I try and ignore it completely, not even acknowledge it is even there!

Now, not being Einstein, but if everyone reacted in the same way, why would the owner want to bring it into town? The locals most certainly don't waste their money feeding it!

Same as the 'younger adults' in the bars and the 'younger adults' at the traffic lights....don't pay them/buy anything, they will go away and the 'older adults' would have to find an alternative way to feed the 'younger adults'!

Edited June 12, 2009 by kjhbigv

[garyh]

Isn't it illegal to bring Elephants into the city?

[CLASBYCLAN]

I think the only way to stop the owners from bringing the Elephants into town would be to start a campaign to educate tourists. Tourist need to be told not to give the owners money for food to feed the Elephants, and be encouaraged to see the Elephants in the conservation camp in Lampang or similar. Adverts and mentions in various tourist publications perhaps, maybe even a leaflet on the Aircrafts bringing the tourists here.

[Ulysses G.]

I agree with everyone, but it is like the beggars in Bangkok. You know that they are shipped in by someone who takes most of the money, but you still feel horrible for them - especially the children - and you want them to know that somebody cares.

I usually run and buy them something healthy to eat, but I don't know what you can do for the elephants as the owners profit from the food you buy for them.

[Shotime]

I'm not sure that all the beggars and elephant owners are not independent. If anyone is shipping them in, it's their families. Everybody has to eat, and there are far worse abuses. Saying that, I find it offensive.

It would be difficult to stop if someone is making a living using the elephants. Are they selling boot-leg stuff in Patpong again?

[tigerbalm]

I would like to see a total ban on Mr and Mrs Jumbo being paraded around the city streets,surely there are enough camps around to justify not having them in the city,

A recent post in the BKK regarding Elephants in BKK

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Project-Elep...mp;hl=elephants

[Johpa]

I would like to see a total ban on Mr and Mrs Jumbo being paraded around the city streets,surely there are enough camps around to justify not having them in the city

Actually, there are not really enough spots in the tourist camps and business even at the largest camps is down a bit. I am not surprised to hear of more elephant owners taking their animals into the streets. It is not good news for the remaining independent owners these days as the larger owners are in no need to incur the expenses of increasing their stables.

[elektrified]

Night before last I saw the youngest elephant I have ever seen inside a city anywhere in Thailand, right out front of the first bar on the corner of Kotchasarn and Loi Kroh. Poor thing looked frightened to death.

[IanForbes]

Most of the elephants I see are sitting on bar stools sucking up beer...

This was the biggest tusker I've ever seen in Thailand. That ivory was about 5 feet long or more. Not huge by African standards, but big just the same.

[kangeroo]

yes i have a problem with beggars i was i korat not long ago and asked one of them if they wanted something to eat or drink or something for the baby , but the reply was no money money . enough said i think .

[IanForbes]

yes i have a problem with beggars i was i korat not long ago and asked one of them if they wanted something to eat or drink or something for the baby , but the reply was no money money . enough said i think .

Some of them "rent" the baby and drug it with sleeping pills just so they can attract more sympathy.

[el jefe]

There used to be two elephants working the streets in the Nimanhaemin area. They weren't there just to separate tourists from their money. Mostly it was Thais feeding the elephants. They'd stop in front of DayLi for an hour at a time and I've rarely seen a farang in there. Around December 1, the govt said that the elephants were no longer allowed in the city and I haven't seen one since. Obviously that's changed now.

While the street elephants are all mistreated, the bigger question is what will they eat if people stop buying 10 baht's worth of food from their handlers? There's no need for elephants in Thailand. They can't legally be used in the forest, there isn't enough protected habitat for them to be returned to the wild, the elephant camps don't need more elephants and can breed their own (the babies are a big tourist draw), and the conservation groups don't have the funds or land to take them all in.

It's a much bigger issue than "Don't feed them." If you don't feed them, they probably don't eat. if you want to do something positive, contribute to the conservation groups so they can continue and expand their programs.

[getgoin]

I am getting tired of everyone calling me an elephant!

[Shotime]

", the bigger question is what will they eat if people stop buying 10 baht's worth of food from their handlers?"

You may be surprised.

Why would anyone sit in a bar full of elephants sucking up beer? Unless, of course, they're an elephant who likes beer?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Now, not being Einstein, but if everyone reacted in the same way, why would the owner want to bring it into town? The locals most certainly don't waste their money feeding it!

No, they do waste their money on feeding it.

That's why you also see them at other locations, places where there's no tourist in sight. ( Or maybe you don't spend that much time outside of the city area? )

Same applies to the 'deaf' people with the card going along the bars; people would think that's a tourist-only thing but you also see them in very Thai local hangouts such as the Santitham area. And you can see kids selling flowers in local pub/restaurant areas as well.

Keep in mind that buying food for an elephant = 'making merit'.

[tigerbalm]

Now, not being Einstein, but if everyone reacted in the same way, why would the owner want to bring it into town? The locals most certainly don't waste their money feeding it!

No, they do waste their money on feeding it.

That's why you also see them at other locations, places where there's no tourist in sight. ( Or maybe you don't spend that much time outside of the city area? )

Same applies to the 'deaf' people with the card going along the bars; people would think that's a tourist-only thing but you also see them in very Thai local hangouts such as the Santitham area. And you can see kids selling flowers in local pub/restaurant areas as well.

Keep in mind that buying food for an elephant = 'making merit'.

Yes the Elephant rounds are not only city based, i have seen them on numerous locations around the area i live which is 12 kms out side the city in little country lanes where there are karaoke bars and small Thai restaurants, also on the inner ring road where there are quite a few Thai reaturants, where 99.9% are Thais no tourists in site, and The Thais do feed them.

I just wonder where the city Elephants go to sleep/rest after there nights work?

[WaiWai]

Keep in mind that buying food for an elephant = 'making merit'.

Correct .

I posted a few stories about elephants in the News Forum recently. I will do whatever I can to help, but in truth I get too upset to be very useful .

[Ajarn]

It is similar to the poor little children forced to sell flowers in the bars at night. They stay up so late they can't attend school.

Why do you think they can't attend school? Because they stay up so late, or because they don't attend school due to not being Thai? I don't see them as being exploited at all, simply they are a part of the family making money. I don't believe that they are kidnapped or taken from their families either. I'm fairly sure it does happen, but nothing to the degree that most people believe. Why do they believe this? Do they ask the kids or talk to anybody at all? No, they are simply customers who make up stories they think will be believed by others, or listen to them...

It sounds great to say, 'don't buy flowers', but why? It only keeps that family poor, never getting enough money to do anything else. But it is easier to have a 'good' reason not to spend the 20 baht, doesn't it?

Until the families can make money in a different way, they will be out there trying to sell flowers. The best thing anyone can do is buy the flowers, or make a donation to a group out there helping kids and their families. The worst you can do is what many of you are doing now, not buying the flowers at all, or creating bullshit stories so you don't feel bad about it...

Edited June 14, 2009 by Ajarn

[elektrified]

It is similar to the poor little children forced to sell flowers in the bars at night. They stay up so late they can't attend school.

Why do you think they can't attend school? Because they stay up so late, or because they don't attend school due to not being Thai? I don't see them as being exploited at all, simply they are a part of the family making money. I don't believe that they are kidnapped or taken from their families either. I'm fairly sure it does happen, but nothing to the degree that most people believe. Why do they believe this? Do they ask the kids or talk to anybody at all? No, they are simply customers who make up stories they think will be believed by others, or listen to them...

It sounds great to say, 'don't buy flowers', but why? It only keeps that family poor, never getting enough money to do anything else. But it is easier to have a 'good' reason not to spend the 20 baht, doesn't it?

Until the families can make money in a different way, they will be out there trying to sell flowers. The best thing anyone can do is buy the flowers, or make a donation to a group out there helping kids and their families. The worst you can do is what many of you are doing now, not buying the flowers at all, or creating bullshit stories so you don't feel bad about it...

I usually give the children the 20 Baht and tell them to give the flowers to some lovely lady I see sitting nearby.

[Lordfoul]

A few years back I used to eat at a small Issarn restaurant near the Chang Klan. Often there would be a group of Thai adults there, sitting around having a good time, plenty of empty large bottles of beer.

Through out the evening the small flower selling children would come to the table give the adults money and hang around for a few minutes before being sent back to the streets.

It didn't look to me like the children were contributing to their family, it looked like they were contributing to their parents alcoholism. If those kids are going to school they are going to school tired and in poor condition to learn. They will become their parents, it is a sad and vicious circle.

The woman who put her son through university by selling fruit to university students, so her son can have a better life than her and take better care of her when she is old is contributing to her family and that is where I would rather put my 20 baht.

And while where on the subject of begging..

I was eating at an outdoor restaurant once, and was accosted by one of the old ladies carrying a baby. She started poking me with her bony finger, asking for money. upon seeing this the owner of the establishment came out and said to her 'if you need money, I have some dishes you can wash'. She promptly left.

These woman are also not looking to earn money, they want money to be given to them for doing nothing. I imagine there is an 'organization' behind them, but I don't really know.

The Deaf selling pencils is a bit less of a scam in that you are getting something at 'near' fair market value, even though it is something you probably don't want and you are only buying it because you feel bad.

A better way to support the deaf would be to use the car/bike wash across the street from the school for the deaf. All the kids that work there are deaf and are the most financially disadvantaged from the school.

I use them often, You can be charitable with supporting beggars.

To get this back on subject.

2 to 3 of the city walking elephants are dropped off next to where I live almost every night. I live in the Jed Yod / CMU area, definitely not a high density tourist area.

My understanding is that bringing them to the city is the only way the Mahouts can afford to care for them. I am not sure if this is true, and if it is I am not convinced it outweighs the 'cruelty' of walking through the polluted, poorly paved city all night.

It is similar to the poor little children forced to sell flowers in the bars at night. They stay up so late they can't attend school.

Why do you think they can't attend school? Because they stay up so late, or because they don't attend school due to not being Thai? I don't see them as being exploited at all, simply they are a part of the family making money. I don't believe that they are kidnapped or taken from their families either. I'm fairly sure it does happen, but nothing to the degree that most people believe. Why do they believe this? Do they ask the kids or talk to anybody at all? No, they are simply customers who make up stories they think will be believed by others, or listen to them...

It sounds great to say, 'don't buy flowers', but why? It only keeps that family poor, never getting enough money to do anything else. But it is easier to have a 'good' reason not to spend the 20 baht, doesn't it?

Until the families can make money in a different way, they will be out there trying to sell flowers. The best thing anyone can do is buy the flowers, or make a donation to a group out there helping kids and their families. The worst you can do is what many of you are doing now, not buying the flowers at all, or creating bullshit stories so you don't feel bad about it...

[IanForbes]

It is similar to the poor little children forced to sell flowers in the bars at night. They stay up so late they can't attend school.

Why do you think they can't attend school? Because they stay up so late, or because they don't attend school due to not being Thai? I don't see them as being exploited at all, simply they are a part of the family making money. I don't believe that they are kidnapped or taken from their families either. I'm fairly sure it does happen, but nothing to the degree that most people believe. Why do they believe this? Do they ask the kids or talk to anybody at all? No, they are simply customers who make up stories they think will be believed by others, or listen to them...

It sounds great to say, 'don't buy flowers', but why? It only keeps that family poor, never getting enough money to do anything else. But it is easier to have a 'good' reason not to spend the 20 baht, doesn't it?

Until the families can make money in a different way, they will be out there trying to sell flowers. The best thing anyone can do is buy the flowers, or make a donation to a group out there helping kids and their families. The worst you can do is what many of you are doing now, not buying the flowers at all, or creating bullshit stories so you don't feel bad about it...

Any kid staying up until 1:00 AM is not going to attend school whether it's hill tribe kid or not.

There are many ways to help people other than giving them 20 baht at a time. I personally decided to adopt a Thai family and help them start a business. It seems to be working as they are now almost self sufficient. It costs me about $250 a month, but it seems to be going to a good cause. I visit them once or twice a year to see how it's working out.

Beggers will continue to beg no matter how much is given them. It's the old parable... give a man a fish and he will eat for one day. Teach a man to fish and he'll survive for a lifetime.

I've also sponsored two young Thai flower girls and got them into school and paid for their tuition. They are now both over 18 years old and doing well. But, I'm on a limited pension and can only do so much.