Poll: Should Thai sex workers be legalized?

[george]

Prostitution in Thailand should be decriminalised to help reduce child trafficking and sexually transmitted diseases, a human rights advocate said yesterday.

PROSTITUTION: Sex workers ‘should be registered’

What is your opinion?

[Bud Zumwalt]

While I was stationed in South Korea in the late 80s, I was given the position of Liaison Officer for the Western Corridor, Soul to DMZ, the power to place any one of the 400 clubs or 12,000 Entertainers {Prostitutes} off limits to American GI's, if that happened for a month or more, the club(s) would go under. Prostitution was not legal in South Korea, but Entertainers were, so all Prostitutes were called Entertainers. By Korean law they were required to carry a health certificate, I called them STD Cards, it was the clubs responsibility to have their ladies see a medical clinic once a week and have the card stamped. The GI could ask to see the card before ST or LT. All cases of VD with GIs were reported by Army health officials to my office, thus I would follow up to the club with my team of Korean and US Army representatives, usually an interpreter, a Senior NCO, my driver, a representative of the health department and myself. Randomly we would visit clubs and check health cards to see if they were up to date. This worked very well, the VD rates were controlled, the ladies stayed healthy, the GI's were happy.

HIV was not a problem then as it is now. I think Thailand needs to do something, but the girls should not be penalized if they should seek a better life as a spouse outside of Thailand or within Thailand. I am available to set up a program for Thailand, if some Thailand Government Representative(s) just happened to read this post.

Bud

[wuggiman]

Based on other places in the world, where prostitution is controlled in a safety and health sense - yes i do believe it to be a positive thing, if motive is established because of taxation or other financial gains for the government - no i do not.

It should all be about safety and health. Obviously i do not agree with child prostitution, which in either case should be strictly controlled.

[MaiChai]

Very western views. Many ladies working the trade have dual lives and would not want to be registered; that is they would not want to admit that they do what they do. Some only work as prostitutes when they are short of money, some do it to finance their studies, some only do it when they are younger, or for a short period of time. Thais spend their lives not seeing things, never mind talking about things openly.

[LPCustom69]

If the government is going to make money off of it, and they are, then I don't believe they should have to register. I do believe in the health checks that Bud Z mentioned, but I don't feel that they should be locked into that profession forever. They would then really be treated like scum by the government. No visas, good jobs or any respect because they are prostitutes. It's even more degrading than the work itself. As MaiChai stated, a lot of the girls aren't full timers, so why should their lives and options be limited. In the States real Wild type of stuff goes on all the time in college and nobody wants to register them, and a lot of them are game for anything.  

:cool:

[francois]

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said he assigned the Justice Ministry to study the feasibility of legalising the flesh trade, but insisted that a more pressing problem would be to prevent women from becoming prostitutes in the first place.

the premier discover the problem of prostitution in his own country  

might have something to do here no?

after all, pataya is still open during the apec  

[francois]

sure a lot of these ladies are doing this for a short while,

but how many do this because they can't do naything else,

at least they might think this way, which is in a lot of case a real pity  

legalize or not, could be a good thing if this turns in the advantage of the workers, which I doubt very much  

healthcare is not enough to compensate the way Thai people will look at them once it will be public.

it's known, it's in the street, but nobody talk about it openly,

what if this becomes a real public thing ?

what about the private life of these people?

will they be able to have a "normal" life beside or after this job?

will Thai people let them in "normal" society without saying anything, like "second-class" citizen ...  

it's a problem and a worry ...

how is it going to be if the tourist number falls hardly?

we are talking about human being like us, don't forget it  ???

[wuggiman]

As it is now, they are not really accepted as equals by other thais, as in most countries.

i think the main issue is health and safety, for them and the punters.

i agree, they are humans like us and would never treat them as less. Many, when going back to their homes, say they do other things, although everyone knows what they really do, its a two face thing.

registration should not carry penalties in any case, but serve only as a health control or service if you want

[Butterfly]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!

Unless the government wants to become a pimp and make the life of these women more miserable by "professionalizing" their situation.

Ban it or leave it !!!!!

[wolf5370]

Ban it or leave it !!!!!

Er, legally its banned already. Hence, the 'decriminalising' issue. So, we can all see that doesn't work.

Leave it, well that should stop the price going up I suppose - no tax. Any other good points?

Why should being registered become public knowledge? The fact that you have a license means you can work in a licensed premises (brothel) - the cops will check the brothel's register from time to time with the odd sting to collect names and compare to the brothels and the agencies records; I doubt they're going to go around with a membership card taped to their foreheads.

If anything, the girls will be better hidden than sitting on bar stools in Soi Cowboy. Only punters will see them, and its doubtfull they will gosip too widely other than to other punters (not unless they want to wake up to their pieces floating in their Kao Tom if the Mrs comes to hear).

I still only see good points for the girls, the punters, the country's image, anti-graft and the government's coffers. If its being done just for the latter, who cares? As long as the outcome is good then fine. Its not even a case of the Ends justifying the Means, as the Means are acceptable too, simply the reason for the Ends may be indifferent.

The only down side to those of you who are punters is that the cost will go up as the girls have to pay for health checks, registration and tax - guess who's going to pay for that!

[Khun ?]

Just the ones that need a receptical change, you know, boy to boy. One of them have the wrong tool and need a default

sticker put on them.

[Down South]

It used to be many years ago all the Girls had to have a health check card to check for STD's once aweek and HIV once a month. Someone must have gotten lazy. TIT

 I think this would be the right thing to bring back.

[caughtintheact]

Either just l;eave it alone or get rid of the law that says adults working in the sex entertainment business are criminals.  Don't try to institutionalize it ... there is no need for anyone to have a stigma attached to their official records.  

Focus efforts on getting rid of child sex, forced sexual labor,  and arresting phedophiles.

It is a necessary part of a society with a poor education system and a system that offers very little in the way of options.

[george]

From today's Bangkok Post:

ANALYSIS / PROSTITUTION IN THAILAND

To legalise or not to legalise

A public forum by the Justice Ministry next month hopes to gather opinions on the country's stance on prostitution.

ANUCHA CHAROENPO

There is much debate at present about legalising prostitution in Thailand _ following the Justice Ministry's announcement that it will host a public forum to gather opinions on this issue next month.

Legalising prostitution is likely to be one of the most controversial issues in the country, engendering strong feelings from both supporters and opponents.

Supporters feel that legalisation would place many social security programmes within the reach of sex workers. They would also receive better health-care services and protection from exploitation or humiliation by their bosses and customers. Furthermore, the state would gain higher revenue through taxes paid by legalised prostitutes.

Opponents argue that legalisation would bring more people into the prostitution businesses, that it contradicts the country's Buddhist image and culture, and does not promote the family institution.

The public forum, the first of its kind in the country to discuss the pros and cons of legalising prostitution, will also seek solutions to the problem of prostitution.

Hundreds of concerned state law enforcers, university academics, non-government organisations' representatives working with sex workers, female organisations' representatives, human rights activists, sex workers, religious leaders and interested people will be invited to help come up with the best way to solve the problem of prostitution. Conclusions derived from the forum will be submitted to the Justice Ministry's law reform committee.

To be sure, some members of the public wonder whether the government's urgent attempt to legalise prostitution is not just the result of massage parlour proprietor Chuwit Kamolvisit's call for the registration of prostitutes, after his massage parlour business was badly affected after the arrest of his masseuses in a police sting operation, on charges of selling sex.

Justice Minister Pongthep Thepkanchana denied this, saying the move was part of the government's policy to bring such underground businesses into the legal sphere.

Charnchao Chaiyanukij, director-general of the Rights and Liberty Protection Department, who will play a leading role in hosting the forum, said legalising prostitution has been a very controversial issue in Thai society for a long time, but had never before been tabled by any state agency. As far as he knew, the issue had been discussed by only limited groups such as non-governmental organisations working with sex workers, but that was just the opinion of one side. So, a forum was crucial at this time to sound out public opinion on this matter.

``We want to know whether the majority of the people agree or disagree with legalising prostitution, so that we can find a proper solution to this matter, as this has long been illegal in the country and nowadays it is the largest underground business accounting for several billion baht a year,'' Mr Charnchao said.

Janthavipha Aphisuk, of Empower Foundation, who has worked with sex workers, said the government was ``too late'' to effectively deal with prostitution, which has already turned into a social problem.

She wanted the government to use social measures to solve prostitution problems rather than enforcing laws which would be a ``fruitless attempt''.

Ms Janthavipha said most women who entered the prostitution business were from poor and uneducated families. Such women needed to receive educational opportunities to find better jobs.

``Whether prostitution is against the law or not, if the women are still poor and uneducated, there is a high possibility that they would enter into the business,'' she said, adding there were currently about 200,000-250,000 prostitutes in the country.

However, she supported legalising the sex trade. ``If they were legalised and became taxpayers, they could enjoy all the rights that other taxpayers have, including health-care checks and other benefits provided by the government, as well as the right to sue if they were exploited by their employers or abused physically or verbally by their customers,'' she said.

Nam, a 28-year-old prostitute who has been working at a nightclub in Patpong area for two years, said it would be better for her and her colleagues if her career were legalised.

A native of Chiang Rai, Nam said nowadays she got received a salary of only 4,000 baht a month, which was inadequate to cover all expenses in Bangkok. The nightclub did not provide her or her colleagues with any social security programmes such as health checks and provident fund.

``I want to have the same government benefits that other working people have and I don't mind if the government collects taxes from me.

``Whenever I go out with a customer, I never feel secure as I have no chance of knowing my fate. I could be beaten up or gang raped but have no right to file a complaint with police, who instead would arrest me on a charge of prostitution,'' she said.

She said sometimes her customers refused to pay her for sexual services and she could not complain to police since prostitution was against the law.

Tee, a 32-year-old male prostitute who has worked in a gay bar in Patpong for seven years, said he wanted the government to legalise male prostitution as well, because many of them suffered an uneasy life and were often molested both sexually and physically by their bosses and customers.

He said two of his colleagues were forced to have sex with three foreign customers at the same time. One ``farang'' took the two from their gay bar in Bangkok to Pattaya beach without telling that he had his two friends waiting in a room. The farang men beat up the pair, had sex with them and video-taped the activity.

He said his friends dared not file a complaint with police.

``If the prostitution is legalised, I'm sure that the rights of sex workers will be protected by the law,'' he said.

But Phra Sri Bhariyattimolee, deputy rector of Maha Chulalongkorn Ratchawittayalai Buddhist University, argued that legalising prostitution was against Buddhist teachings and he knew of no Buddhist country in the world which accepted this as a legal business.

He said Buddhism taught people not to commit adultery. A spouse must be honest and respect one another. If the government insisted on the legalising prostitution, it could be interpreted as if the government itself was violating Buddhist teachings and failing to promote family ties.

``I know that no woman in the world wants to be a prostitute but what drives them to become one is poverty and illiteracy. So the government should try to solve such problems first to reduce the number of women in the sex trade,'' he said.

Rabiebrat Pongpanich, a Khon Kaen senator, who has launched a campaign against keeping mistresses, said the legalisation of prostitution would bring more women who lost her virginity into the sex trade and, in the long term, it would become a domestic problem in the family as husbands would not care enough for their families and wives.

Mrs Rabiebrat said the prostitution problem remained in the country because police normally turned a blind eye to the problem; they did not fully enforce laws involved, especially the Prostitution Prevention and Suppression Act 1996, which focussed on penalties for the manager, producer, supervisor, customer and owner of prostitution premises, if they forced children not over 18 years of age into prostitution.

Under the act, child prostitutes would receive protection and vocational development for a period not over two years.

``No matter what the outcome of the public forum will be, what we know is the government is taking a major step to solve the problem, which is the focus of attention,'' she said.

--Bangkok Post 2003-10-11

[george]

Two articles about the future of Patpong (from the Nation):

Part 1: Patpong stripped of business

Part 2: Patpong seeks night exemption

[Butterfly]

Two articles about the future of Patpong (from the Nation):

Part 1: Patpong stripped of business

Part 2: Patpong seeks night exemption

Nice stories. thanks.

Toxin policies: 1 step forward, 2 step back

[G W Bush Jnr]

Toxin policies: 1 step forward, 2 step back

Get off, Those are MY policies.

[Butterfly]

Toxin policies: 1 step forward, 2 step back

Get off, Those are MY policies.

No, your policies are no step forward, 2 steps back !!!

Did you see that new thing where Prince Bush is going to legalize sport killing of endangered Wild Life in the US ? couldn't he be more transparent ?

[george]

Entertainment zone bill set to go before Parliament

Published on Oct 23, 2003

The final draft of the zoning regulations for entertainment venues is ready for parliamentary approval, the secretary to the deputy interior minister told The Nation yesterday.

Arisman Phongruangrong said the joint-committee of senators and MPs finalised the draft last week after months of debate .

The final draft supports the creation of entertainment zones where activities banned under the social-order campaign can be hosted.

However, the zones will only be allowed if further studies find that they are not detrimental to surrounding communities.

"Further regulations would describe the areas, the allowed activities and all necessary details," said Arisman, who is also a member of Deputy Interior Minister Pracha Malee-nond's social-order team.

Since the campaign was launched in 2001, bars and nightspots have had to shut at 2am, there has been stricter enforcement of drug laws and sex shows have been banned. Nightspots in Patpong have seen their business shrivel.

Arisman told The Nation that there was no guarantee that Patpong would be designated an entertainment zone, despite pleas from bar owners that their businesses would not survive unless it was.

"No sites would be given special treatment. Impacts must be assessed before zones are declared. This includes areas like Phuket, Pattaya and other Bangkok entertainment areas," Arisman said.

Patpong would remain subject to social-order measures until the new zoning law is passed, despite calls for relief from businesses in the area. The draft would be submitted at the next meeting of Parliament.

"The zoning law will greatly improve Thai society. There will be no drugs and no children around night venues. But some businesses might suffer a little," he said.

If the draft wins approval, zoning would not be implemented until ministerial regulations are issued.

"Patpong will not die, as they claimed," Arisman said.

"Business there had already benefited from the weak enforcement of the law. Now is the time for sacrifice, to give back to society," he said.Arisman said society had to accept the fact that the social-order campaign scared off some tourists.

"We should care that some groups of tourists are 'unqualified' and 'undesired'. They come for sex and alcohol, not to enjoy our culture. Even Thai partygoers have to accept the social-order measures," he said.

Kamol Sukin

--THE NATION 2003-10-23

[mtnthai]

This subject, being a quagmire of double edged swords and opinion, has and always will be up for discussion even after the smoke has cleared and a decision, good or bad has been reached. I choose to address only one aspect of this debate as it was most recently brought to my attention by a Thai girlfriend of mine who works in the business. (Yup, she actually thinks about stuff that is of consequence, despite her third grade education.)

She was referencing the point that was put forward that education is the key. Well, in her small bar alone there are three girls employed who have university level educations. They state quite openly that the years of hard work and sacrifice that were required of them to achieve their degrees have seemingly been for naught. Fully graduated and diplomas in hand they have tried to find jobs in their chosen professions. They have all come to go-go bars to work because entry level jobs in their areas of expertise do not pay enough to help them to live on a daily basis, support their loved ones nor to help them repay the loans that afforded them their schooling in the first place. They have also come to conclude that despite all the detractors their current employers can be a bit more understanding and giving then in the mainstream of business. Needless to say they do feel cheated and abandoned by society, the system and government. They are angry that there are no other choices as they see it. They wish to be responsible and pay back their loans, maintain and build their credit for the future and surprisingly enough, pay their taxes. (Unlike some business people, Thai and Farang alike that do all that they can to default on loans – IMF was a result of this – and avoid paying their fare share of taxes and employee benefits.)

Further, in the time that I have lived in Thailand I have met an innumerable amount of girls who are financing their education by working in the bars and other venues for prostitution. Their families up-country are dirt poor and can not afford them the education that they so desire and that they perceive will get them out of their poverty and squalor.

There is no clear solution and what ever is decided will be both good and bad. The way I see it at this juncture though is this. It is time to take the burdens off of the employees of establishments and shift them to the proprietors who are exploiting them on every level. Granted the prices will increase but so they do with any other “product” that is improved and “manufactured” to standards of quality and safety. Such is progress.

To those of you who would tell me to keep this aspect to myself reflect upon your job and position and what you wish for and demand of your employers and give a bit more for a service that you wish to avail yourself of. Do not be willing to only pay for an old beat-up pickup truck and expect to be driving a new shinny Ferrari. You might actually have a better experience, get more value for your hard earned wages and help improve the lot of so many.

[toey22]

This is the most absurd thing the government can ever think of! I am pretty mad after first reading this.

ok, first of all, what would happen to the social values of the society? Do the government and society support women to sell sex? Imagine high school or college kids sell sex for part-time job, or even worse, quit school to sell their body to men. Do you support that? Can you be completely ok that when your daughter was asked "what do you want to be when you grow up?" and the answer was "I want to be a prostitute because it's such an easy job and I can have lots of money quickly!"

Second, how are women perceived in our society? Prostitution was the oldest job in history, yes, when that time women had no equal rights to men. in fact, no right at all. when, at that time, they were treated as an "object". It is both painful and pitiful that even in the 21st century the perception of women has not changed a bit! Will we women let that happen to us? There are still lots of sexual discrimination, assault, harrassment in the society that has yet to be brought up and resolved. If we support prostitution, that means we accept the fact that men can rule over women. What happens to the equal rights? You can just forget about it when the government let the whole society treat women as a sex object.

If men and women are to be truly equal, we must not allow legal prostitution.

Plus, do you think these prostitutes are currently happy psychologically? Do they want to be treated as a sex object if they had a better choice? Currently they DON'T KNOW how to have a better life. They are illiterate let alone the education! How can they be exposed to other choices? The objective of the government is to improve the quality of life for these unfortunated people. Solve the grass roots, solve the poverty! the social equality! the education! Of course, these are much harder to do than to just pass one law. But that is what the government is obligated to do, not to exploit the illegal business.

The government must help them develop thier skills hence their life. Not legalize an illegal work! or you might as well just legalize drugs and weapons trading too since these also contribute large amount of money!

 

There are other and more effective ways to tackle the problems related to prostitution whether it is STD, child trafficking, etc.. We must educate them about all the risks and diseases, self-respect, self-realization, potential psychological deconstruction, moral values, and so on AND at the same time providing them with other sources of jobs and skill development and help them secure a job, just as you would do for the homeless and the poor. I believe many of these women have the potential to be better if they receive good guidance and opportunity.

Moreover, what would happen to our country's image? Aren't we not enough labeled to be the major sex industry in the world? What kind and what class of tourists are we having right now? They are here for sex. Do Thailand want to attract more of these tourists? Why don't we UPGRADE the country's image by improving the good things, nature, and culture we have. Why don't we attract more higher class tourists to spend more Baht per person: e.g. instead of these cheap tourists being here for sex (and sometimes drugs admit it) who would spend 200 Baht a day for a motel, attract higher class tourists who spend 3000 Baht/day for a luxury hotel to experience our wonderful beaches or what have you. The objective is to bring in more money by spending power, not merely quantity. We have to screen our tourists. If efficiently managed, we can be an up-scale tourist attractions sites in a few years.

Last but not least, all the men out there, can't you even get a girl or a date who WILLINGLY wants to have sex with you, and not for the money? How can you be proud of yourself when to have to trade money for sex?

[Begs]

Well put Toey, it's a really difficult subject, but i agree that if prostitution is legalised, it may encourage many poorer families to actually encourage daughters into the trade, like i say , it is a very difficult subject.....should someone be a criminal for selling maybe the only thing they have to offer....

As far as asking men why they go with prostitutes, i guess the answer will be....Cos they can...      And lets face it, it is certainly not only tourists, the vast majority of Thai men visit or have visited prostitutes, sex will always be in demand, and there will always be a supply......

In the ideal world we would see things differently, there would be education and opportunity for all, alas it is not an ideal world, and people are people.

Nice post though, you have made some good points.

[ThaiAdventure]

it may encourage many poorer families to actually encourage daughters into the trade,.

Like they don't already?

[Begs]

No comment

[BudZumwalt]

Legalize those whores, make em clean up their HIV and get some medical treatments.

Bud

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You seem to be running lotsa IP's Buddy boy Up to no good ?

[sonthaya]

It's here why not leave alone

[Boon Mee]

<font color='#000000'>

Toxin policies: 1 step forward, 2 step back

Get off, Those are MY policies.</font>

<font color='#000000'>No, your policies are no step forward, 2 steps back !!!

Did you see that new thing where Prince Bush is going to legalize sport killing of endangered Wild Life in the US ? couldn't he be more transparent ?</font>

Since we're higher on the food chain it's "Kill it & Grill it"!

[chonabot]

Legalize those whores, make em clean up their HIV and get some medical treatments.

Bud

IMPOSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moving]

<font color='#000000'>

Toxin policies: 1 step forward, 2 step back

Get off, Those are MY policies.</font>

<font color='#000000'>No, your policies are no step forward, 2 steps back !!!

Did you see that new thing where Prince Bush is going to legalize sport killing of endangered Wild Life in the US ? couldn't he be more transparent ?</font>

Butterfly,

If you want a topic or post regarding President Bush than open it...otherwise, why not keep your comments to the original posting?