Cesar Millan

[Nienke]

Because I read this: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...lletter6-10.pdf

... Merial's executives may not be aware of the fact that the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT) have uniformly spoken out against the punishment-based techniques employed by Mr. Millan on his television show "The Dog Whisperer."

At best, the show is entertaining but misleading to pet owners. At worst, Mr. Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. As practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter. ...

... For reference, we have attached AVSAB’s position statements on the “Use of Punishment in Behavior Modification in Animals” and “Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification in Animals”. You will find that these statements are based in scientific research and do not support the techniques Mr. Millan promotes on his show. We would also be happy to provide you with additional peer-reviewed references indicating that the training methods televised on “The Dog Whisperer” often lead to increased aggression and human injury. ...

And a book review of his book "Cesar’s Way":

www.veterinarybehaviorclinic.com/downloads/Cesar's%20Way%20Definitely%20NOT%20a%20Whisper.doc

Edited June 16, 2009 by Nienke

[benthai98]

I enjoy watching Cesar's shows. While I'm sure most of it is a little over the top and editted, you can't deny that he does seem to have a certain knack with canines. Regarding the observation in that article about increased anxiety and accidents to both owner and dog; the beginning of everyone of his shows clearly states "Don't do this yourself"...

The argument of love & bribery methods versus innate fear & respect methods for animal training is an old one and one that I'm personally not game enough to enter into here. I try to use a stable mixture of both with my dogs.

[jhjd]

I am surprised about the Cesar Millan fever, which also have now arrived Thailand. During the dog fair in BKK on 19June the first books of "Cesar's Way" were promoted. Now in some of the Thai dog magazines some articles of how to train your dog Cesar's way are published every month.

I read the book a couple of month ago. And I was very dissappointed as there are no really good advices for a dog owner, except to show calm, assertive energy. "Energy" is actually a word he likes to use very much for every situation, but it didn´t help me at all. In fact, I did not know how to transmit my "calm, assertive" energy to my dog without giving a command. I tried to do some telepathy exercises with my dog for a couple of weeks!! But he never sat down, just because I was looking him deeply into his eyes and focused on thinking "SIT.. SIT.. SIT". Sure, you can communicate with your dogs without a word, but therefore you have to build up a relation in the first and the dog needs to learn which behavior is wanted and which not.

I think there is no reason why a dog should not been thaught some useful commands. Our dogs are eager to learn and would be bored to just have a "primal" relationship with us.

For a beginner it will be very difficult to understand main content of the book and to use Cesar Millans advices to educate a puppy to become a well-mannered dog. But I also believe that if you have some knowledge about canine psychology, there are some good things to catch between the lines.

The good side-affect about everybody getting crazy about the Cesar is, that many owners with "problems dogs" are not afraid anymore to admit that their dog has a behavior problem. They are not resignating anymore, some see a small light at the end of the tunnel and try to resolve the behavior by getting professional help. I appreciate that, because every dog owner who failed to educate, at least owe their dog a second chance to rehabilitate in human society.

[mdechgan]

The argument of love & bribery methods versus innate fear & respect methods for animal training is an old one and one that I'm personally not game enough to enter into here. I try to use a stable mixture of both with my dogs.

I think the same rule applies to kids and parents. However I tend to lean more towards the "pack leader" method. love and bribery only leads to laziness and corruption. In the end they will walk all over you and won't do anything unless a reward is offered. Innate fear is a little too much word. I prefer "the boss" is more subtle. Love is more like spending time and playing.

[doggie888888]

I never heard of Cesar Millan before last year and certainly with my previous dogs, there were "issues".

After I got my new puppy last year, my neighbour who has 2 very well behaved dogs, gave to me Cesar Millan's book and some of his videos. I read it and tried to apply some of his tecniques. I really believe had I not applied some of his tecniques, particularly those relating to rewarding calm behaviour, being the pack leader, the gentle claw nip on the neck and crate training, my little puppy (13 months old now) would not be as obedient, calm or well behaved. Of course, it does not work all the time and dogs will be dogs sometimes...but overall I really think his method helped me in minimising the incidences of bad behaviour and I am really happy. About 2 months ago I was on the beach, a total stranger who had been observing came up and asked me if I had heard of Cesar Millan and when I replied in the affirmative, he smiled and said that he suspected I did use CM's method!

Another example, I am no longer afraid of Soi dogs...they all just look up and ignore me now :-)

[F1fanatic]

Because I read this: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...lletter6-10.pdf

... Merial's executives may not be aware of the fact that the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB), the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) and the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT) have uniformly spoken out against the punishment-based techniques employed by Mr. Millan on his television show "The Dog Whisperer."

At best, the show is entertaining but misleading to pet owners. At worst, Mr. Millan's techniques and misinformation have contributed to increased aggression and anxiety or resulted in physical injury to the pet and/or pet owner. As practicing veterinarians, we all unfortunately have seen many cases of the latter. ...

... For reference, we have attached AVSAB’s position statements on the “Use of Punishment in Behavior Modification in Animals” and “Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification in Animals”. You will find that these statements are based in scientific research and do not support the techniques Mr. Millan promotes on his show. We would also be happy to provide you with additional peer-reviewed references indicating that the training methods televised on “The Dog Whisperer” often lead to increased aggression and human injury. ...

And a book review of his book "Cesar’s Way":

www.veterinarybehaviorclinic.com/downloads/Cesar's%20Way%20Definitely%20NOT%20a%20Whisper.doc

Neither his programmes or his books (as far as I can see) advocate "punishmen-based techniques"!!!

If anything, the opposite - as he insists that being frustrated or angry makes you weak in your dog's eyes.

His advice has helped me no end as I used to get v frustrated and anxious with my dogs when they behaved badly, or even in a situation where they could behave badly if I didn't take avoiding action (e.g. moving away from other dogs in case one of mine became aggressive towards them). After watching his programmes I tried v hard to remain calm and assertive and, (although it takes a long time before you can stop yourself becoming anxious in worrying situations), I found that eventually you can get there and my dogs behave a lot better.

They're paying more attention to me every day as I continue with his 'calm, assertive' advice.

Thank god for Cesar Millan!

[rixalex]

Thank god for Cesar Millan!

Agreed. Even though some of his techniques i've found hard to put into practice, i have learnt so much from his teachings - and what he has taught me makes me cringe almost daily when i see how the locals take care of their dogs!

[F1fanatic]

Thank god for Cesar Millan!

Agreed. Even though some of his techniques i've found hard to put into practice, i have learnt so much from his teachings - and what he has taught me makes me cringe almost daily when i see how the locals take care of their dogs!

I too, have learnt so much from him. I used to have a dog that was v aggressive and had no idea how to sort the problem out. Whenever children came round I'd put a muzzle on him (or keep him out of the room) to be on the safe side! He only bit twice (and neither time was serious - his teeth didn't break the skin), but obviously I couldn't take any chances!

Watching Cesar Milan, I now (belatedly) understand that he was anxious and nervous - leading to aggression. If only I'd seen his programmes earlier I know that I could have behaved in a way that would have made him a normal, non-aggressive dog. I feel so guilty.

The dogs I have now are far luckier! I've put his ideas into practice and see their (fortunately minor) behavioural problems improving every day. Better still, I've improved so much! Its taking time (and I never thought it would be possible as I'm not naturally a calm, assertive person -unfortunately I tend to get aggressive when frustrated or pushed), but I'm gradually learning not to become frustrated and anxious, and certainly not to try to discipline them when in the wrong frame of mind! As Cesar says, the dog knows this is punishment - not discipline, and just thinks you're weak - they will not learn anything positive from the experience. Best of all, its obvious that my dogs actually love me more now that I apply discipline (consistently! and only over behavioural issues), and not just 100% love and affection.

Cesar is absolutely right IMO when he says that behavioural problems are 99.9% of the time down to the behaviour of the owner not the dog, and its the owner that needs to change and become calm, assertive and 'pack leader'.

Because of this I get annoyed when people assert that Cesar employs 'punishment' techniques. Nothing could be further from the truth, and his methods (understanding dog behaviour and behaving in a similar way to a dog 'pack leader') actually work!

[rixalex]

Cesar is absolutely right IMO when he says that behavioural problems are 99.9% of the time down to the behaviour of the owner not the dog, and its the owner that needs to change and become calm, assertive and 'pack leader'.

Agreed. And for me the biggest problem i see here is dogs getting little if any exercise. Sometimes people keep them in their home 24/7. When these people see me out walking my dogs they think i'm the cruel one! They just have no idea how important it is for dogs to get out of their living space and burn off some energy.

[F1fanatic]

Cesar is absolutely right IMO when he says that behavioural problems are 99.9% of the time down to the behaviour of the owner not the dog, and its the owner that needs to change and become calm, assertive and 'pack leader'.

Agreed. And for me the biggest problem i see here is dogs getting little if any exercise. Sometimes people keep them in their home 24/7. When these people see me out walking my dogs they think i'm the cruel one! They just have no idea how important it is for dogs to get out of their living space and burn off some energy.

Couldn't agree more. Dogs are never happier than when out with their owners on a walk.

I'm v lucky in that I live in an isolated area with no neighbours, so my dogs have no walls to hold them in. Even so, they're sooo happy when we're all going out for a walk together! Its undoubtedly the highlight of their day.

[F1fanatic]

It would be interesting to hear the OP's comments on the response to her topic.

[Nienke]

I find it very interesting why so many dog behavior specialists, of which many belong to the world's best dog behaviorists, are not in favor of Cesar Millan's techniques.

Watching the following (promotional!) video clip from Mr. Millan (and some other episodes I have on a DVD at home) I can understand:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/seri...Videos/05198_00

Here is a dog first taken over his threshold ... why provoke the situation where the dog lunges and pulls towards the other dog and becomes totally unmanageable? Why not working under his threshold where the dog is still able to learn?

Then the dog is kicked and re-directs his aggression towards Mr. Millan. Why provoke this? It's totally not necessary.

And last but not least the dog is choked until his tongue turns blue. What this dog has learned is to stop reacting to another dog or he will be choked to death! He didn't learn that other dogs are okay, no need to react. I do not favor these highly abusive methods at all.

Many people say that Cesar Millan gets dogs that are on death row (kind off), the last chance dogs. But other (top-)behaviorists who use dog-friendly methods also get these kind of dogs and there are many successful cases. You only don't hear or see so much of them, because they don't have a tv show as Cesar Millan has.

I do not say that being an assertive and calm dog owner is nonsense, over the top or something. Of course not. I just do not like the techniques Mr. Millan uses with the choke and pinch collars, because there are other much more dog-friendly techniques out there. Methods and techniques that effectively and safely can handle dog-dog and other kind of aggressions and they are non-abusive.

And of course, he is absolutely right that owners need to be taught as well. However, there are many kind of aggressions in dogs and not all are about dominance. There are also many kind of dog owners with many different personalities out there and not all have the (gentle and strict) authority that is needed for dogs with dominant aggressive tendencies. It's just not in those people; there is no right or wrong about that, it's just the way a person is. But this kind of dog should not be with such a person, or chances are high that the dominance aggression that has carefully trained/rehabilated out of the dog will return within the shortest time, and that's dangerous not only for the owner but also for the dog's environment.

[F1fanatic]

I find it very interesting why so many dog behavior specialists, of which many belong to the world's best dog behaviorists, are not in favor of Cesar Millan's techniques.

Watching the following (promotional!) video clip from Mr. Millan (and some other episodes I have on a DVD at home) I can understand:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/seri...Videos/05198_00

Here is a dog first taken over his threshold ... why provoke the situation where the dog lunges and pulls towards the other dog and becomes totally unmanageable? Why not working under his threshold where the dog is still able to learn?

Then the dog is kicked and re-directs his aggression towards Mr. Millan. Why provoke this? It's totally not necessary.

And last but not least the dog is choked until his tongue turns blue. What this dog has learned is to stop reacting to another dog or he will be choked to death! He didn't learn that other dogs are okay, no need to react. I do not favor these highly abusive methods at all.

Many people say that Cesar Millan gets dogs that are on death row (kind off), the last chance dogs. But other (top-)behaviorists who use dog-friendly methods also get these kind of dogs and there are many successful cases. You only don't hear or see so much of them, because they don't have a tv show as Cesar Millan has.

I do not say that being an assertive and calm dog owner is nonsense, over the top or something. Of course not. I just do not like the techniques Mr. Millan uses with the choke and pinch collars, because there are other much more dog-friendly techniques out there. Methods and techniques that effectively and safely can handle dog-dog and other kind of aggressions and they are non-abusive.

And of course, he is absolutely right that owners need to be taught as well. However, there are many kind of aggressions in dogs and not all are about dominance. There are also many kind of dog owners with many different personalities out there and not all have the (gentle and strict) authority that is needed for dogs with dominant aggressive tendencies. It's just not in those people; there is no right or wrong about that, it's just the way a person is. But this kind of dog should not be with such a person, or chances are high that the dominance aggression that has carefully trained/rehabilated out of the dog will return within the shortest time, and that's dangerous not only for the owner but also for the dog's environment.

Tried the link twice, but both times it 'froze' my computer! So I can't comment on the video, but generally Cesar's 'kick' doesn't hurt the dog by any stretch of the immagination and is purely meant to take his attention away from an undesirable behaviour.

I think he's right in thinking that the only way to solve behavioural problems is by confronting, and then dealing with them. I have no doubt that in the video the dog's problem were solved.

I'm sure there are many other behaviourists 'out there' that are also v good at their job, but then again he often deals with dogs where dog trainers have advised the owners to put the dog down! Cesar shows that they have no idea what they're talking about. Its the owner who is causing the problem, not the dog.

As his programme shows, he tailors his treatment to the dog. Implying that he relies on choke chains etc. is far from the truth. On the contrary, he's always telling the dog owners that they shouldn't be pulling on the lead as it conveys an anxious attitude that will be reflected in the dog.

Unfortunately because I can't view the video, I still haven't seen anything to make me believe that he employs 'punishment' techniques. If I could view it, I somehow suspect that we would disagree over whether he was employing 'punishment' techniques.

IMO the only reason some trainers try to denigrate him is 'cos he's incredibly successful, where they're not!

Incidentally if his methods were in any way cruel, dog lovers wouldn't watch his programme and agree with everything he says!

Edited July 29, 2009 by F1fanatic

[rixalex]

IMO the only reason some trainers try to denigrate him is 'cos he's incredibly successful, where they're not!

Yep, victim of his own success. You can bet were he some unknown guy doing what he's doing, nobody would be questioning his techniques, but because he's done so well for himself, people try to find things to knock him down.

I love dogs but i'm never scared to use a little physical force to get my point across when it's appropriate - i'm not talking about hitting i hasten to add.

You don't need, nor should you ever hurt them, but neither should be you afraid to assert yourself, sometimes physically. The dog respects that and ultimately becomes calmer because of it.

[Nienke]

IMO the only reason some trainers try to denigrate him is 'cos he's incredibly successful, where they're not!

Very weak excuse considering that there are very sounding names between the many who oppose Cesar Millan's techniques.

I think he's right in thinking that the only way to solve behavioural problems is by confronting, and then dealing with them. I have no doubt that in the video the dog's problem were solved.

With this you only show that you haven't looked into the different techniques, especially the dog-friendly ones, available to modify a dog's undesirable behavior into a desirable one.

Yep, victim of his own success. You can bet were he some unknown guy doing what he's doing, nobody would be questioning his techniques, but because he's done so well for himself, people try to find things to knock him down.

I love dogs but i'm never scared to use a little physical force to get my point across when it's appropriate - i'm not talking about hitting i hasten to add.

You don't need, nor should you ever hurt them, but neither should be you afraid to assert yourself, sometimes physically. The dog respects that and ultimately becomes calmer because of it.

There is a BIG difference between (quickly) grabbing a dog by his collar or in the side of the neck and say in an angry voice with angry body language while saying 'enough' or 'finished' or any other cue-word, then choking a dog. Choking is abuse.

And of course, giving a quick corrective grab in the neck depends completely on the situation and the dog. I don't think it's smart to do that with an aggressive dog.

[elfe]

haven't heard of cesar millan, only on this board now, as i live without tv for the last 10 yrs. but will watch out for his book(s?) if i can grab one somewhere.

as many behaviorist's publications are very interesting reads, imo what really makes a good trainer is to find the right way and training/support/corrections of the specific dog in question. to be able to read it and its owner/surroundings right and find the suitable individual method which will be successful with this particular dog. this can vary a lot from dog to dog.

[F1fanatic]

IMO the only reason some trainers try to denigrate him is 'cos he's incredibly successful, where they're not!

They may welll be 'very sounding names', but are they anywhere near as successful as Cesar? Somehow I doubt it and that they are v unhappy that Cesar is receiving far more attention. The unfortunate thing is that Cesar never feels the need to put down other behaviourists, whereas the people to whom you are referring cannot stop themselves - despite the vast majority of dog lovers thinking his ideas are right and work.

I think he's right in thinking that the only way to solve behavioural problems is by confronting, and then dealing with them. I have no doubt that in the video the dog's problem were solved.

With this you only show that you haven't looked into the different techniques, especially the dog-friendly ones, available to modify a dog's undesirable behavior into a desirable one.

I think you fail to appreciate that Cesar only takes on the dogs that other behaviourists have been unable to deal with!! I (and most dog lovers) dispute your implication that his methods are not 'dog-friendly'.

Yep, victim of his own success. You can bet were he some unknown guy doing what he's doing, nobody would be questioning his techniques, but because he's done so well for himself, people try to find things to knock him down.

I love dogs but i'm never scared to use a little physical force to get my point across when it's appropriate - i'm not talking about hitting i hasten to add.

You don't need, nor should you ever hurt them, but neither should be you afraid to assert yourself, sometimes physically. The dog respects that and ultimately becomes calmer because of it.

There is a BIG difference between (quickly) grabbing a dog by his collar or in the side of the neck and say in an angry voice with angry body language while saying 'enough' or 'finished' or any other cue-word, then choking a dog. Choking is abuse.

And of course, giving a quick corrective grab in the neck depends completely on the situation and the dog. I don't think it's smart to do that with an aggressive dog.

Whenever I get angry with my dogs and use an angry voice, they look frightened - not understanding of my correction.

Rivalex is right IMO, asserting yourself is far better than using an angry voice and body language.

[bina]

i prefer karen pryor's methods for the most part: operative conditioning and behavior modelling and modifiction; but not every one is able to use these methods; they need a person who is very aware of tiny behavioral reactions... ceaser is more for people in general situations... he's a bit 'old school' in a way; although i think he does help train the owners very well (if u find that u are calmer and more secure with your dog, then it means that u have modified your behavior and this relfects in the attitude u give to your dog, and the dog picks up on that, meaning he may feel more calm and secure, and less anxious and therefore less aggressive (for instance)... anyway...

and as nienke points out rightly, some behaviors are breed ownly genetically programmed but training can shape /contain/or accent the behavior...

bina

israel

[santidreamer1]

Hi All

I am new at 'posting' on Thaivisa, so I don't know how all these things work. We have been avidly watching and reading Cesar Millan stuff ever since we moved to Thailand. We hadn't heard of him before then, but feel we have learnt a lot. My friend recently moved to Chiang Mai and recommended this forum to me. I am on Samui.

There is a very different psyche to Thai dogs, esepecially if they have had an unknown and maybe not consistent or affectionate past. We have 2 Thai dogs, both at about the same time, they were here before us and adopted us ! We have had them for over 2 and a half years and they are respectively 2 1/2 ( he came here as a puppy) and about 3 1/2 years old. Both boys, both neutered and the same physical size.

We have trained using what we knew before plus a lot of Cesar tips. They are still not particularly obedient and have had many issues with chasing chickens and pigs, especially together, so we do not let them run free together unless on very familiar ground. I know about Cesar preaching to take ownership of the animals they victimise, the problem is, they don't go for the ones near our home, precisely because they know the owners, but infuriatingly, chickens even seem to pop out of the hedges in Tesco's car park ! The dogs get plenty of company, one or other of us in a lot of the time and get proper walks/runs most days and ball activities in the garden, which is a decent size ( 500 sq metres) and trips out in the truck for walks. They have played together and slept together for years and share food and everything.

Now, for some reason, they have started fighting and I feel like I live in a war zone. It is very hard to tell who starts it, and impossible for us to fathom why. The younger dog has been ill, and we thought maybe the older dog sensed the illness and was picking on him because he was weak, but now we are not so sure. This has happened every 2 days for more than a week and I am now terrified. Even just before a walk when they knew the leads were out and we would have expected them to be excited and focussed on going out.

Despite the fact that I am sure the older dog starts the fights, and the younger dog is usually underneath him at the end of it, the older one seems to come off with more injuries and I cannot go on like this. I have scoured the internet but haven't found anything that applies.

Does anyone have any author/websites they could recommend to me please for advice ?

[F1fanatic]

Hi All

I am new at 'posting' on Thaivisa, so I don't know how all these things work. We have been avidly watching and reading Cesar Millan stuff ever since we moved to Thailand. We hadn't heard of him before then, but feel we have learnt a lot. My friend recently moved to Chiang Mai and recommended this forum to me. I am on Samui.

There is a very different psyche to Thai dogs, esepecially if they have had an unknown and maybe not consistent or affectionate past. We have 2 Thai dogs, both at about the same time, they were here before us and adopted us ! We have had them for over 2 and a half years and they are respectively 2 1/2 ( he came here as a puppy) and about 3 1/2 years old. Both boys, both neutered and the same physical size.

We have trained using what we knew before plus a lot of Cesar tips. They are still not particularly obedient and have had many issues with chasing chickens and pigs, especially together, so we do not let them run free together unless on very familiar ground. I know about Cesar preaching to take ownership of the animals they victimise, the problem is, they don't go for the ones near our home, precisely because they know the owners, but infuriatingly, chickens even seem to pop out of the hedges in Tesco's car park ! The dogs get plenty of company, one or other of us in a lot of the time and get proper walks/runs most days and ball activities in the garden, which is a decent size ( 500 sq metres) and trips out in the truck for walks. They have played together and slept together for years and share food and everything.

Now, for some reason, they have started fighting and I feel like I live in a war zone. It is very hard to tell who starts it, and impossible for us to fathom why. The younger dog has been ill, and we thought maybe the older dog sensed the illness and was picking on him because he was weak, but now we are not so sure. This has happened every 2 days for more than a week and I am now terrified. Even just before a walk when they knew the leads were out and we would have expected them to be excited and focussed on going out.

Despite the fact that I am sure the older dog starts the fights, and the younger dog is usually underneath him at the end of it, the older one seems to come off with more injuries and I cannot go on like this. I have scoured the internet but haven't found anything that applies.

Does anyone have any author/websites they could recommend to me please for advice ?

As nobody has stepped in with professional advice (or authors/websites), thought I'd let you know my experiences in an almost similar situation.

I had two dogs but then brought in an old, sick (cancer ridden) dog that I felt sorry for and adopted. One of my dogs hated him on sight (presumably reacting to the sick smell), and attacked him immediately (no physical harm, but it frightened the life out of both of us!). Obviously I stepped in as soon as it happened and grabbed the aggressive dog (without getting angry), gave her the Cesar 'bite' on the neck, and made it very clear that I was protecting the sick dog.

Incidentally the 'aggressive' dog was a soi dog that I'd adopted when she was about 3 years old, and had been let down by a couple of families.

It happened again and I repeated my behaviour.

After that my 'aggressive' dog would growl when the sick dog went near (each time this happened I gave my non-approval "no" shout), but she never attacked again.

After a while she only rarely even growled.

I think the trick is to make it entirely clear that you are not prepared to tolerate the situation, but of course - you have to be accepted as 'the pack leader' first! (I'm not quite there as I still have training problems! But even so, when it comes to behaviour they accept what I say.)

A friend of mine had a small, old dog that would attack her younger (far bigger) dog and, of course, always ended up the loser! Feeling sorry for the old, injured dog only made the situation worse.

Your situation is reversed but even so, I suspect the answer in your case is to make it clear to the older dog that his/her behaviour is unacceptable. If this doesn't work, you're going to have to shell out for a professional dog trainer!

[wilsongbrown]

Hi All

I am new at 'posting' on Thaivisa, so I don't know how all these things work. We have been avidly watching and reading Cesar Millan stuff ever since we moved to Thailand. We hadn't heard of him before then, but feel we have learnt a lot. My friend recently moved to Chiang Mai and recommended this forum to me. I am on Samui.

There is a very different psyche to Thai dogs, esepecially if they have had an unknown and maybe not consistent or affectionate past. We have 2 Thai dogs, both at about the same time, they were here before us and adopted us ! We have had them for over 2 and a half years and they are respectively 2 1/2 ( he came here as a puppy) and about 3 1/2 years old. Both boys, both neutered and the same physical size.

We have trained using what we knew before plus a lot of Cesar tips. They are still not particularly obedient and have had many issues with chasing chickens and pigs, especially together, so we do not let them run free together unless on very familiar ground. I know about Cesar preaching to take ownership of the animals they victimise, the problem is, they don't go for the ones near our home, precisely because they know the owners, but infuriatingly, chickens even seem to pop out of the hedges in Tesco's car park ! The dogs get plenty of company, one or other of us in a lot of the time and get proper walks/runs most days and ball activities in the garden, which is a decent size ( 500 sq metres) and trips out in the truck for walks. They have played together and slept together for years and share food and everything.

Now, for some reason, they have started fighting and I feel like I live in a war zone. It is very hard to tell who starts it, and impossible for us to fathom why. The younger dog has been ill, and we thought maybe the older dog sensed the illness and was picking on him because he was weak, but now we are not so sure. This has happened every 2 days for more than a week and I am now terrified. Even just before a walk when they knew the leads were out and we would have expected them to be excited and focussed on going out.

Despite the fact that I am sure the older dog starts the fights, and the younger dog is usually underneath him at the end of it, the older one seems to come off with more injuries and I cannot go on like this. I have scoured the internet but haven't found anything that applies.

Does anyone have any author/websites they could recommend to me please for advice ?

I have two mixed breed dogs, one taken in as a very young puppy, the other of a similar age who hung around outside our gate waiting for me to take our, then, lone dog for a walk twice a day, got territorial and so had to take him in too.

A few months ago a Thai dog (100% Ma Thai) joined us on a walk and wouldn't leave, and had to take him in. The difference between a Ma Thai and any other dog is exactly the same as a Siamese cat and any other cat. Of course they all have their individual personalities, but the Thai dog is extraordinarily clever and very jealous.

This dog will, given the chance, set upon the other two much larger dogs if he feels they are being given more affection (usually just that somewhat blood curdling growl they make). If you've been giving the sick dog more attention, then that will be it. Ma Thais are very sensitive and will quickly pick up on what they perceive as their ranking in the affection stakes being usurped.

As to the chasing other dogs and chicken thing, Ma Thais are ferocious, particularly for their size, and not at all cowards, they never back down. However, the upside is, their being very clever and loyal (they are known as 'the dog that stays by the cart), showing rapid disapproval, a sharp word is enough from their beloved owner, will pull the dog into line. However, good luck with two of them, and whatever you do, don't even think about biting one on the neck

Edited August 2, 2009 by wilsongbrown

[F1fanatic]

Hi All

I am new at 'posting' on Thaivisa, so I don't know how all these things work. We have been avidly watching and reading Cesar Millan stuff ever since we moved to Thailand. We hadn't heard of him before then, but feel we have learnt a lot. My friend recently moved to Chiang Mai and recommended this forum to me. I am on Samui.

There is a very different psyche to Thai dogs, esepecially if they have had an unknown and maybe not consistent or affectionate past. We have 2 Thai dogs, both at about the same time, they were here before us and adopted us ! We have had them for over 2 and a half years and they are respectively 2 1/2 ( he came here as a puppy) and about 3 1/2 years old. Both boys, both neutered and the same physical size.

We have trained using what we knew before plus a lot of Cesar tips. They are still not particularly obedient and have had many issues with chasing chickens and pigs, especially together, so we do not let them run free together unless on very familiar ground. I know about Cesar preaching to take ownership of the animals they victimise, the problem is, they don't go for the ones near our home, precisely because they know the owners, but infuriatingly, chickens even seem to pop out of the hedges in Tesco's car park ! The dogs get plenty of company, one or other of us in a lot of the time and get proper walks/runs most days and ball activities in the garden, which is a decent size ( 500 sq metres) and trips out in the truck for walks. They have played together and slept together for years and share food and everything.

Now, for some reason, they have started fighting and I feel like I live in a war zone. It is very hard to tell who starts it, and impossible for us to fathom why. The younger dog has been ill, and we thought maybe the older dog sensed the illness and was picking on him because he was weak, but now we are not so sure. This has happened every 2 days for more than a week and I am now terrified. Even just before a walk when they knew the leads were out and we would have expected them to be excited and focussed on going out.

Despite the fact that I am sure the older dog starts the fights, and the younger dog is usually underneath him at the end of it, the older one seems to come off with more injuries and I cannot go on like this. I have scoured the internet but haven't found anything that applies.

Does anyone have any author/websites they could recommend to me please for advice ?

I have two mixed breed dogs, one taken in as a very young puppy, the other of a similar age who hung around outside our gate waiting for me to take our, then, lone dog for a walk twice a day, got territorial and so had to take him in too.

A few months ago a Thai dog (100% Ma Thai) joined us on a walk and wouldn't leave, and had to take him in. The difference between a Ma Thai and any other dog is exactly the same as a Siamese cat and any other cat. Of course they all have their individual personalities, but the Thai dog is extraordinarily clever and very jealous.

This dog will, given the chance, set upon the other two much larger dogs if he feels they are being given more affection (usually just that somewhat blood curdling growl they make). If you've been giving the sick dog more attention, then that will be it. Ma Thais are very sensitive and will quickly pick up on what they perceive as their ranking in the affection stakes being usurped.

As to the chasing other dogs and chicken thing, Ma Thais are ferocious, particularly for their size, and not at all cowards, they never back down. However, the upside is, their being very clever and loyal (they are known as 'the dog that stays by the cart), showing rapid disapproval, a sharp word is enough from their beloved owner, will pull the dog into line. However, good luck with two of them, and whatever you do, don't even think about biting one on the neck

Sorry, what is a Ma Thai dog?

[bina]

ma thai = thai dog (ma is thai for dog in impolite/issaan lingo) so he has a thai dog dog/ probably means a ridgeback /mix...

sounds like the younger dog has reached maturity (three years is a naughty year for horses and larger dogs- when they become 'full' adults, and therefore start with the domination problems. balls or not wont help... u will have to become the big master and put both in their places. they arent puppies anymore. make both sit or down before putting on their leads. figure out which one is the real dominant (age doesnt always matter, nor does size), and deal with him first. first in, AFTER you of course, FIRST out, after you... first to be fed, petted and dealt with.

oops just reread other posts... but basically what i am saying also. also, a bit of boot camp i.e. u should show a bit more control over both dogs, more sitting/staying/down, up, commands... aught to smooth things over.

we just inherited a small jack rat (jack russel rat terrier mix ) ; neutered male. about three yrs old also... a bit of a dominant, with tail always up except with people that he knows... had a few skirmishes these past weeks; the food thing quickly resolved as they all eat out of one bowl, constantly filled... first the lhasa male, then lilee, as she asks permission from the lhasa, then benji as he waits until he gets permission from the lhasa.

the next skirmishes were about sleeping areas. anon is the dominant male (ha ha thai dominant husband does his job) so he just throws all the dogs off the sofa, chair, beanbag, out of the bed room, off the bath mat, etc. that quickly stopped most of the territory skirmishes. the going outside skirmishes also resolved by making them all wait, then letting foofoo the male out first, the jackrat second and lilee follows the jackrat out and all over anyway...

finally, one month of full time (the jackrat was part time for a while as owner was homeless and in a job taking him away for days at a time) benji and the lhasas, and we have industrial peace in the house. there were few blood drawing bites and large amounts of lhasa fluff flying around for a while but now its like this: lilee and benji are a pair. she adores him. she follows him. cries for him. waits for him. foofoo is still the lone male (he is also the one with balls). he is attached to us. and the kibbutz thinks i am a nutcase for adding an other crazy dog to the family (replacing my kids as each one goes off to the army and stuff-- empty nest and all that)....

bina

israel

[santidreamer1]

We are really grateful for everyone's advice and experiences. Thank you.

The house has been fight-free since Friday, though they are definitely NOT friends again. They avoid one another and growl when passing too close ! We have sharply clapped our hands and said NO and , so far, no more blood.

Sickly younger dog (Tiger) got himself lost on Sunday's walk, I wonder if he feels he wants to get away from the older bully ? Though they happily sat side-by-side in the truck on the way.

We found him late in the evening, more or less exactly where we lost him, though only 2 KM away from home, this dog never won any prizes in the hunt the thimble and doesn't have a sense of direction! He is unable even to successfully play hide and seek within the grounds of the house.

Something I am wondering more and more is..... the older dog is more 'attached' to me, stays by my side, frets when I am out... and the younger one, to my husband, which probably means Big (silly name I know ) thinks I am the pack leader and Tiger thinks my husband is ?

We have taken on board everything you have all said and will keep you posted.

[F1fanatic]

We are really grateful for everyone's advice and experiences. Thank you.

The house has been fight-free since Friday, though they are definitely NOT friends again. They avoid one another and growl when passing too close ! We have sharply clapped our hands and said NO and , so far, no more blood.

Sickly younger dog (Tiger) got himself lost on Sunday's walk, I wonder if he feels he wants to get away from the older bully ? Though they happily sat side-by-side in the truck on the way.

We found him late in the evening, more or less exactly where we lost him, though only 2 KM away from home, this dog never won any prizes in the hunt the thimble and doesn't have a sense of direction! He is unable even to successfully play hide and seek within the grounds of the house.

Something I am wondering more and more is..... the older dog is more 'attached' to me, stays by my side, frets when I am out... and the younger one, to my husband, which probably means Big (silly name I know ) thinks I am the pack leader and Tiger thinks my husband is ?

We have taken on board everything you have all said and will keep you posted.

I doubt that your dogs have different ideas about who is pack leader. Could it just be that they know they will get more affection from the partner they're being more affectionate with?