Thailand: Like The Usa In The 50s?

[JR Texas]

The more I think about it, the more Thailand is starting to feel like the conservative 50s in the USA.

For those too young to remember, the dominant cultural ethos/pattern in the 50s in the USA was characterized (in large part) by extreme conservatism (in dress and thought), conformists ideology, xenophobia, and very bad music (e.g., How Much is that Doggy in the Window).

I see those same traits in Thailand today.......especially the music.......having to hear it is the equivalent of Chinese water torture......seeing it on TV is even worse.....like a bad nightmare or LSD trip in Las Vegas.

It was during the 50s that the country started becoming more liberal......and the boring music started to change to "rock and roll"........Elvis came on the scene......many others like Buddy Holly.

(Yes, I know the roots of rock and roll but no need to go there.)

Towards the end of the 50s, young people really started changing.........there was a rejection of conservatism.......liberal thought started to flourish.....music started becoming great......fashion changed.

By the early 60s, a full-fledged cultural revolution started to unfold........Dylan and Hendrix started to surface. Finally a total rejection of the past took place.......JFK, RFK, MLK.......some good politicians and activists took the stage.

Is Thailand passing through a similar historical phase?

Are young students waking up to the conservatism that is smothering their freedom of expression?

Will they eventually start their own "cultural revolution?"

[jumnien]

There are some similarities. However, the average Thai still sees, quite correctly, their political choices as being between several mafias. In the US, the majority of folks never saw that they were choosing between political mafias or gangs and instead, incorrectly, saw their choice as between good and evil. The US electorate will one day progress to the level of sophistication found in the Thai populace. Until then they will vote consistently for the Demo-Republican mafia and elect candidates like Bush-Obama where the choice is very very subtle. Do you vote to bomb innocent Iraqis or would you prefer to bomb Afghani wedding parties.

[Orac]

When does the war with Vietnam start ??

[JohnGotti]

The more I think about it, the more Thailand is starting to feel like the conservative 50s in the USA.

i stopped reading here.

[barrybankruad]

The 'social revolution' has already started. Take the issue of young women wearing skimpy shorts (I love them). 10 years ago especially in rural areas where I live the wearing of such apparel was taboo, and although still frowned on by the older generation has become the norm.

We can of course thank television and the internet, and as time goes by we will see more and more 'liberal' changes. This will of course eventually permeate into all aspects of society, politics, religion etc. Whether this will be for the better remains to be seen..

[lannarebirth]

I take the OP's meaning and at times feel the same way. That said, Kent State shocked a nation. One feels a similar event here in Thailand could happen countless times with no affect. Really, the youth need to turn on their parents, and that's probably not going to happen. But something else might.

[lannarebirth]

The 'social revolution' has already started. Take the issue of young women wearing skimpy shorts (I love them). 10 years ago especially in rural areas where I live the wearing of such apparel was taboo, and although still frowned on by the older generation has become the norm.

We can of course thank television and the internet, and as time goes by we will see more and more 'liberal' changes. This will of course eventually permeate into all aspects of society, politics, religion etc. Whether this will be for the better remains to be seen..

One shouldn't confuse liberalism with libertine.

[JR Texas]

The 'social revolution' has already started. Take the issue of young women wearing skimpy shorts (I love them). 10 years ago especially in rural areas where I live the wearing of such apparel was taboo, and although still frowned on by the older generation has become the norm.

We can of course thank television and the internet, and as time goes by we will see more and more 'liberal' changes. This will of course eventually permeate into all aspects of society, politics, religion etc. Whether this will be for the better remains to be seen..

One shouldn't confuse liberalism with libertine.

Already some very good posts here.......please continue.

I was just at a local university and there were signs plastered all over the place warning "girls" to stop wearing skirts that are "provocative and tight." Personally, I like what they are doing The girls, that is.

Jumnien said something interesting about American politics and how there really is no choice between democrats and republicans........but the idea that Thais are any better is up for debate.

Reds vs yellows.........no real choice........the ruling elites win either way. Corruption.......I think part of the rejection by the youth is America was about corruption at all levels.

The main thing is that the right questions were starting to be asked........are they being asked in Thailand? Is there a Bob Dylan in Thailand who is causing the youth to THINK about something other than surface issues?

I wonder what Lannarebirth meant by "something else" will perhaps happen.

[mackayae]

I liked "How much is that doggie in the window" by Patti Page. It was one of my favorites in '53.

[bungy007]

I take the OP's meaning and at times feel the same way. That said, Kent State shocked a nation. One feels a similar event here in Thailand could happen countless times with no affect. Really, the youth need to turn on their parents, and that's probably not going to happen. But something else might.

Being British and born in 1960 I have no idea what America in the fifties was really like other than old black and white news reels/films/tv shows and concerts. I definitely feel that once I had changed from tourist mode to expat, I saw another side to Thailand. I felt in a time capsule - it seemed that Thailand was experiencing its first generation of teens with their own fashions/music. Conventional wisdom has it that any cultural changes in American life take a decade to make their presence felt in the UK. Consequently, it could be argued that America in its fifties was like the UK in the 60s - a time of great cultural change and similarly a new voice found for teens through the beatles/rolling stones/Led Zep etc.

It did and does seem to me that as a fully paid up member of the first generation of true teenagers from the uk(those who naturally grew up around a teen scene and found their way through their own version) I am experiencing the same questions and frustrations from Thai teens as I went through myself. conversley, from the parents/Thai teachers/moral crusaders/political pundits I hear the same expasperations and despair as I witnessed first hand from my own parents and the such. It's like playing a roll in a bad sci-fi drama and I'm some kind of profit from the future - It's strange but I feel a strong afinity to both sides as that was the world that I grew up in. Tex - you have a good point

Edited June 20, 2009 by bungy007

[PeaceBlondie]

Some Ivy League iconoclast professor made the point that the Beatniks and Hippies were the final conservatives, who made the older folks realize their hypocrisy. I doubt that a Thai Bob Dylan has a ready audience here. Conservative forces have too much to lose. But hey, the Thai nephew just showed up with late-Lennon length long hair, so maybe there's hope...unless it's only a fashion statement.

[bungy007]

The 'social revolution' has already started. Take the issue of young women wearing skimpy shorts (I love them). 10 years ago especially in rural areas where I live the wearing of such apparel was taboo, and although still frowned on by the older generation has become the norm.

We can of course thank television and the internet, and as time goes by we will see more and more 'liberal' changes. This will of course eventually permeate into all aspects of society, politics, religion etc. Whether this will be for the better remains to be seen..

Yes, we are witnessing the first decade of a youth culture in Thailand. Most of that is due to the influence of mass media and tourism which is generally the realm of the young at heart. I think that this was part of Shinawatra's platform in creating empathy with the older generations and those left behind in the villages. He vowed to protect 'Thai culture' from the evils of 'Farang' (though he found no duplicity in purchasing houses and businesses in the UK - indeed making my country his second home until he received the regal boot). However, just as King Canute discovered, Purachai and his ilk (see the Thai Ministry of Culture) couldn't hold back the tide of change that is washing over the realm.

However, having witnessed the pendulum swinging too far the other way in the UK, we do need to make sure that the baby isn't thrown out with the bath water. Thailand really needs to identify what is worth keeping - could be respect but not complete obediance to elders, compassion over competition, time/freedom to enjoy being young (indicative of the school uniform) rather than being forced to follow/create a fashion statement before children really know who they are and what they like/dislike/agree/disagree with. Just some ideas and I'm sure many will disagree which I have no problem with. Feel free to rebutt or add your own to the list of what to preserve and what to discard

Edited June 20, 2009 by bungy007

[a2396]

Yes, many women in Thailand over 35 (or thereabouts) are like the 1950's American women.

[EnhancePlus]

Didn't students try to make a change back in 1992, but ended up being shot dead in the streets. Until the military is under a government control (that is all active political parties involved) change is going to be suppressed. The elite will have to be brought down.

I like your optimism, though.

[JR Texas]

I liked "How much is that doggie in the window" by Patti Page. It was one of my favorites in '53.

OK......to each his/her own.........truth be told, I stole that from an interview with Bob Dylan who talked about the music his generation was moving away from........he mentioned that song.

[Lancelot]

Hmmmmmmmm, I remembe the 50s and I really don't see the similarities.

One example-ladyboys walking around openly and no one reacting or taking notice. No way that would have happened in the USA in the 50s, 555+

[bungy007]

Hmmmmmmmm, I remembe the 50s and I really don't see the similarities.

One example-ladyboys walking around openly and no one reacting or taking notice. No way that would have happened in the USA in the 50s, 555+

Well, I imagine that was because Uncle SAM was/is extremely homophobic whereas Thailand is fairly tolerant in the respect of a third gender. I think the paranoia over race can be paralled. The USA really didn't consider black Americans/immigrants of colour as equal and Thais don't view anyone Non-Thai as equal either. So there is at least one similarity.

[BigSnake]

Six years old in the mid 50's and I can remember a few good things during that era, and you are right some things are indeed alike.

[Garry9999]

I've away thought Thailand is much like Australia in the '50s, but with 2000's technology. And herein lays the problem that so many here complain about.

Bullock wagons to turbo charged 4WDs in the space of a generation, is it any wonder Thais drive like they do?

'50s style education system, where pupils are taught to memorize, but not to question.

'50s style Government/police corruption.

'50's style hospitals.

'50's style road infrastructure.

'50's style rail infrastructure.

'50s style censorship

etc etc

Edited June 20, 2009 by Garry9999

[JR Texas]

Hmmmmmmmm, I remembe the 50s and I really don't see the similarities.

One example-ladyboys walking around openly and no one reacting or taking notice. No way that would have happened in the USA in the 50s, 555+

Well, I imagine that was because Uncle SAM was/is extremely homophobic whereas Thailand is fairly tolerant in the respect of a third gender. I think the paranoia over race can be paralled. The USA really didn't consider black Americans/immigrants of colour as equal and Thais don't view anyone Non-Thai as equal either. So there is at least one similarity.

The racial thing is interesting..........this happened in the 50s:

1952 - The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952 removes racial and ethnic barriers to becoming a U.S. citizen.

But we know that "Blacks" were not considered equal by most Americans at that time (unless you were into great guitar music).

In Thailand people from Lao, Myanmar, and Cambodia are considered way beneath Thais (in terms of how the average Thai looks at the world).

The acceptance of homosexuality and "lady boys" is different........that would likely have gotten you bashed back in the 50s by the good ole boys. It is seems odd because we tend to associate that type of acceptance with liberal thinking.

But then you see the posters on campuses today telling the girls not to reveal anything.....the message is like the American 50s idea that "sex is bad." Please don't listen to them girls!

[waza]

The more I think about it, the more Thailand is starting to feel like the conservative 50s in the USA.

For those too young to remember, the dominant cultural ethos/pattern in the 50s in the USA was characterized (in large part) by extreme conservatism (in dress and thought), conformists ideology, xenophobia, and very bad music (e.g., How Much is that Doggy in the Window).

I see those same traits in Thailand today.......especially the music.......having to hear it is the equivalent of Chinese water torture......seeing it on TV is even worse.....like a bad nightmare or LSD trip in Las Vegas.

It was during the 50s that the country started becoming more liberal......and the boring music started to change to "rock and roll"........Elvis came on the scene......many others like Buddy Holly.

(Yes, I know the roots of rock and roll but no need to go there.)

Towards the end of the 50s, young people really started changing.........there was a rejection of conservatism.......liberal thought started to flourish.....music started becoming great......fashion changed.

By the early 60s, a full-fledged cultural revolution started to unfold........Dylan and Hendrix started to surface. Finally a total rejection of the past took place.......JFK, RFK, MLK.......some good politicians and activists took the stage.

Is Thailand passing through a similar historical phase?

Are young students waking up to the conservatism that is smothering their freedom of expression?

Will they eventually start their own "cultural revolution?"

Yer and Thaskin is Malcom X

[Lancelot]

The acceptance of homosexuality and "lady boys" is different........that would likely have gotten you bashed back in the 50s by the good ole boys. It is seems odd because we tend to associate that type of acceptance with liberal thinking.

But then you see the posters on campuses today telling the girls not to reveal anything.....the message is like the American 50s idea that "sex is bad." Please don't listen to them girls!

Could probably still get you bashed in many areas (ladyboy reference.)

Maybe there are some Thai "Modesty/Culture" police around but the babes are still revealing plenty. For me, Laos seems more like 50s USA. Just my take, but interesting topic for sure

[barrybankruad]

Liberalism or libertine. One of the definitions of libertine is one who does not conform to to prevailing religious/moral standards at that time. It of course also means promiscuous, adulterous etc etc. but that was not what I had in mind.

[bungy007]

I've away thought Thailand is much like Australia in the '50s, but with 2000's technology. And herein lays the problem that so many here complain about.

Bullock wagons to turbo charged 4WDs in the space of a generation, is it any wonder Thais drive like they do?

'50s style education system, where pupils are taught to memorize, but not to question.

'50s style Government/police corruption.

'50's style hospitals.

'50's style road infrastructure.

'50's style rail infrastructure.

'50s style censorship

etc etc

I largely agree with you on the length of the leap from one generation to the next. the technology gap is phenomenal and I'm sure a huge contribution to problems between Thais and Westerners. A lot of these technical advances are solutions/improvements on solutions to problems. we understand the basic rational behind the hardware whereas Khun Thai has no idea of the original problem/need for improvement. Consequently the implementation goes right over there heads. We stare in disbelief and state 'Don't you get it? Machines kill unless treated with respected and caution'. Thais can't understand the fuss as they are working on thought processes common to pre-50s America (before all the labour saving devices and mechanisation).

Of course, the advantage is that they still know how to tinker with things to get them working where as we have largely lost that ability. Many complain that the West doesn't have any decent car mechanics anymore and that they are all just fitters. Though the old part away and fit a new bit. I really hope the Thais keep this part of their culture

[Garry9999]

I've away thought Thailand is much like Australia in the '50s, but with 2000's technology. And herein lays the problem that so many here complain about.

Bullock wagons to turbo charged 4WDs in the space of a generation, is it any wonder Thais drive like they do?

'50s style education system, where pupils are taught to memorize, but not to question.

'50s style Government/police corruption.

'50's style hospitals.

'50's style road infrastructure.

'50's style rail infrastructure.

'50s style censorship

etc etc

I largely agree with you on the length of the leap from one generation to the next. the technology gap is phenomenal and I'm sure a huge contribution to problems between Thais and Westerners. A lot of these technical advances are solutions/improvements on solutions to problems. we understand the basic rational behind the hardware whereas Khun Thai has no idea of the original problem/need for improvement. Consequently the implementation goes right over there heads. We stare in disbelief and state 'Don't you get it? Machines kill unless treated with respected and caution'. Thais can't understand the fuss as they are working on thought processes common to pre-50s America (before all the labour saving devices and mechanisation).

Of course, the advantage is that they still know how to tinker with things to get them working where as we have largely lost that ability. Many complain that the West doesn't have any decent car mechanics anymore and that they are all just fitters. Though the old part away and fit a new bit. I really hope the Thais keep this part of their culture

Well said, I couldn't agree with you more.

[IanForbes]

Interesting discussion and I agree that there are some similarities. I grew up in the 1950s and know what it was like. We were far more innocent then and everything we learned was through the newspapers or radio. Only a few people had television and the early shows were very trite.

But today is an entirely different world wherever the internet and unsensored television is available. Thais all have cel phones and play with them constantly. Nothing is secret anymore and there is an almost instant recognition of anything phony everywhere. It's like the old saying ..."How do you keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree (Paris)".

Although it was a simpler life back in the 1950s I prefer the way it is today.

[bungy007]

Interesting discussion and I agree that there are some similarities. I grew up in the 1950s and know what it was like. We were far more innocent then and everything we learned was through the newspapers or radio. Only a few people had television and the early shows were very trite.

But today is an entirely different world wherever the internet and unsensored television is available. Thais all have cel phones and play with them constantly. Nothing is secret anymore and there is an almost instant recognition of anything phony everywhere. It's like the old saying ..."How do you keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree (Paris)".

Although it was a simpler life back in the 1950s I prefer the way it is today.

Very fair point. Your 50s in America were my 60s in the UK. Again radio and tv along with newspapers were the main souce of news/entertainment. Tv didn't really start until 16:30 with a programming on all channels dictated by family routines - kids shows until 18:00 followed by national and then local news until 19:00. A light comedy or variety/quizz show for the next hour. Followed by a drama with a little more substance/current affairs programme. Half an hour for the news again followed by adult entertainment until close of play at mid-night. There was a sense of structure there. Nowadays we can turn on the tv at 06:00 and straight into an adult film. We have lost that sense of family routine which governed the airwaves and our daily drive to seek entertainment.

I too have fond memories of the past but prefer today. However, I do see that the 24 hour programming is an advancement whereas Khun Thai can't appreciate appropriate viewing for the time of day or audience. Hence they are unable to screen adult films in cinemas as they just don't get informed censorship. They base all films on the fact that Thais do and will bring young kids to watch anything regardless of its content. This attitude to censorship is also 1950s America. Go ask Lenny Bruce

[seri thai]

Didn't students try to make a change back in 1992, but ended up being shot dead in the streets. Until the military is under a government control (that is all active political parties involved) change is going to be suppressed. The elite will have to be brought down.

I like your optimism, though.

I think if you tap the Thai socio-political clock you'll find it stopped in 1932, around the time of Al Capone and Bonnie and Clyde.........This was when the military ushered in the new age, prior to that it was stuck at 1357.

The powers that be are currently torn between the traditional money wanting to drag it back to 17** or the Chaozhou money dragging it back to 1884.

Plus ca change....

p.s. don't forget to add the 543 years for B.S.T.

That said I'd rather be in Thailand at any point in it's history (other than '41-'45) than in the US of A.

I withold my right to complain about everything, interminably wherever I am. It's all that keeps me sane

Anyhoo it looks like we're all being dragged back to 1929 at the very earliest courtesy of world banking.

"Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it" - "The first time as tragedy, the second as farce"

Edited June 20, 2009 by seri thai

[stevehaigh]

50's was a bit before my time, but i can't really imagine it anything like Thailand now!

anyhow, about Thai music, i think Thai pop music is pretty good, certainly infinitely better than all that Rap and R&B crap in the US and UK. i love chunladaa takaten, great songs and beautiful girl, and many other Thai pop artists. i also like some of the more traditional Thai artists like Tai Oratai. at least Thai songs have good melodies and are quite catchy

steve

[Plus]

I think in some ways Thais are more advanced than Americans/Westerners. They are a lot more cynical about politics and democracy while 200 million Americans go ga ga over Obama like they've never been duped before.

As for revolution led by Thai youth - this is the first time I see anyone having any hope in that area. They are as apolitical as humanly possible - the cynicism of their parents rubbed of on them really well.

Most of Thai music is produced according to modern production technics, it's entertainment, not art, you don't need talent, just a bit of training. That's another thing they picked up from the West.

>>

EnhancePlus, in 1992 popular uprising led to downfall of a coup maker who didn't want to relinquish power. It was led by the same people who led PAD protests for the past couple of years. This time they got rid of Thaksin - another victory for the people.