Thaksin Scores Over Newin In Sakon Nakhon By-election

[sriracha john]

A happy day for democracy in Thailand!

And one of its premier proponents:

Chalerm and sons...

Yes, They where the best. You wanna say Abhisit is changing anything? Gimme a laugh.

No I am not but as far as I know is that I see at least 3 people in one picture considered to be criminals.Yet none of them have served 1 day in jail.

Actually 4 if you consider that Mr. Happy Toilet (raising his hand to speak) held down the policeman while his older brother Duang (next to him) shot him in the head.

[Plus]

I'm simply pointing out the total inability of his detractors to accept the democratic will of the electors in Sakon Nakhon.

Can you point out exactly where people don't accept outcome of Sakhon Nakhon elections?

Fighting imaginary demons, are we?

[rixalex]

Nothing amazing about people hating a convicted criminal who flees like a coward, refuses to accept punishment handed down by the Thai courts and who continues to stir up trouble in the country - all in the interests of saving his own precious scrawny arse.

Punishment handed by a military appointed court following a military coup.

Thaksin was happy enough to abide by the court's decision when he was in power and able to influence their decision, so what right does he have to complain now? And even if he was wrongly found to be guilty as you seem to believe, don't you think that attempting to bribe the courts with the million baht lunch box should carry with it a hefty sentence in itself?

Let's make it clear. You feel like you belong to an elite that is above democracy, that your decision should not be contested by the "uneducated".

Nope. What i'm against is rich politicians manipulating and misleading the less fortunate and less informed, all under the phoney guise of it being democracy. Phoning around to a bunch of easily bought local village leaders and promising them something in return for the vote of the locals is not democracy and is not the will of the people - rather the will of one man with a fat wallet.

[rixalex]

Quite amazed at the at the sheer hatred and viciousness of the anti-Thaksin brigade here!

Nothing amazing about people hating a convicted criminal who flees like a coward, refuses to accept punishment handed down by the Thai courts and who continues to stir up trouble in the country - all in the interests of saving his own precious scrawny arse.

What is amazing however, is that there are people like you who continue to speak in his defence (although you'll no doubt deny that) and mention his name in the same breath as the word democracy.

Read my post again, and tell me where I'm speaking in his defence.

You said that you were amazed that people hate Thaksin. Well i'm amazed that you are amazed!

If you have lived in this country for the last ten years or so you would know that there is plenty about him to hate - and the same goes for the vast majority of politicians in this country. They are out for themselves, driven by greed. It so happens that Thaksin has done a better job than most of the rest in using democracy for his own personal gain. Some perversely admire this about him. I don't.

[phupaman]

Hi All.

Thaksin is a convicted criminal , How can the PTP be legal when their spokesman Chalerm openly tells the whole

Nation that Thaksin is the real leader, Banned from politics, Surely this party should go the same way as TRT PPP.

It seems it do not count when you lead by proxy. Phupaman

[animatic]

Sort of followed the run up to the by election and the next and was wondering what the policies of PTP were, what they would do to fix the economy, unrest in the south, bus deal, rice pledging, etc,etc. Dont seem to have heard any of that.

Do they actually have any policies or is bring back Taxin their only idea?

Also it seems to me that it is unrealistic to expect the present (elected) government to have fixed all the woes of the country and indeed the world in the short, less than 6 months, they have been in office particularly considering all the "help" they have had from many PM's who were elected by the people to assist in running (as in improving) the country only to attempt to tear it down for what would appear to be their own selfish ends.

It's basically the same situation as Myanmar. There is so much hatred of the coup-makers that most people are fixated on just returning to who was elected before the hideous generals took over and subsequently installed the present government. When they are defeated ultimately it will be time to seriously engage in policy origination.

You don't appear to know anything much about Myanmar or how it really is there.

The comparison between the two just doesn't fit the measure of reality.

Been there, seen it first hand, and you just don't get it. Nice try.

This grand hatred of the coup makers from 2 + years back is over blown except in the Northeast.

Most Thais just want to go on with their business after yet another coup, and same same.

They could careless, Thaksin or not, as long as their lives are not disrupted again.

What I hear more often is Thai complaints about Thaksin causing unrest and losing people business.

But hey you say you know how it is everywhere in Thailand,

how can dare I dispute such surety of mind?

[animatic]

Nope. What i'm against is rich politicians manipulating and misleading the less fortunate and less informed,

all under the phoney guise of it being democracy.

Phoning around to a bunch of easily bought local village leaders and promising them something

in return for the vote of the locals is not democracy and is not the will of the people -

rather the will of one man with a fat wallet.

Right to the point :

A banned politician on the run from a confirmed legal conviction,

deemed legal, valid and relavant by several other countries,

is calling local villages and promising their headmen cash and power

to deliver their villages votes, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY.

PTP is short of leaders because their under-leaders are about to hang them, yet again,

for more vote fraud, if investigations via EC charges get properly started up.

Using or allowing Thaksin to manipulate the vote for PTP and participate in any way

in the campaign is not likely legal in any sense.

[grandpops]

Hi All.

Thaksin is a convicted criminal , How can the PTP be legal when their spokesman Chalerm openly tells the whole

Nation that Thaksin is the real leader, Banned from politics, Surely this party should go the same way as TRT PPP.

It seems it do not count when you lead by proxy. Phupaman

Sorry to see you have such a dismal grasp on the situation.

Banned politicians here are banned by an Army Coup installed legal framework, courts and Constitution Courts. The sole purpose of these appointees was to disband TRT and convict Thaksin. How could Thaksin, in this situation ever NOT be a convicted criminal.

This is why nobody pays attention to the shenanigans. We are still governed by the same people that led the 2006 coup. Ask Abhisit where all the stabbing pains in his back are coming from and why he cannot govern the country. It's not Thaksin!

I see now that the appointees are rushing to try and annul the result as once again, their prefferred man got beat.

[Plus]

Banned politicians here are banned by an Army Coup installed legal framework, courts and Constitution Courts. The sole purpose of these appointees was to disband TRT and convict Thaksin.

Party dissolution and subsequent ban were recommended by the very first investigative panel, about half a year before the coup, according to the rules spelled in 1997 Constitution.

Don't blame the junta for TRT's run-ins with the law. They got exactly what they deserved, junta or not.

[HagenvonTronje]

calling local villages and promising their headmen cash and power

to deliver their villages votes, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY.

how do you know that cash handouts have been promised in these telephone conversations?

and what about the actually cash hand outs by the government? the 2000 baht for the low income earner, the 500 baht for the elderly, the 2000 baht for the blinds? wouldn't be other forms to provide social support more effective in the long run than simple cash handouts?

[Plus]

the 2000 baht for the low income earner, the 500 baht for the elderly, the 2000 baht for the blinds? wouldn't be other forms to provide social support more effective in the long run than simple cash handouts?

Not necessarily.

Republicans and libertarians would argue that even collecting taxes is ineffective in the long run.

>>>

Going shopping is the fastest way to spend this tax money, if that was the point - getting fastest returns, it worked.

[animatic]

Banned politicians here are banned by an Army Coup installed legal framework, courts and Constitution Courts.

The sole purpose of these appointees was to disband TRT and convict Thaksin.

Party dissolution and subsequent ban were recommended by the very first investigative panel, about half a year before the coup, according to the rules spelled in 1997 Constitution.

Don't blame the junta for TRT's run-ins with the law. They got exactly what they deserved, junta or not.

The legal frame work was in place well before the coup and the laws TRT and PPP went down under

were ALSO in place before the coup. Those two defunct parties didn't take them seriously.

The sole major difference was the will to ACT against Thaksin and his lackeys,

using existing laws for existing crimes in TRT's case. And those same laws

and similar crimes from a PPP that hadn't learned from TRT's mistakes.

The sole legal body added by the junta was the Assets Examination Committee.

which was purely an investigative body, not a prosecutorial body.

And had nothing to do with the PPP disbanding, nor the TRT disbanding.

The PRE-EXISTING Election Commision with the Attorney General

using existing laws was the mechanism, for their downfalls.

AEC 'findings' were then sent to pre-existing

National Counter Corruption body and pre-existing Attorny Generals office.

THOSE two bodies then determined in several cases to prosecute based on investigative findings.

The AEC never prosecuted anyone or anything.

The attn gen and NCC also dropped some charges as not enough evidence,

but went forward on many more.

The courts and constitutiuon courts were not installed post coup,

there were hardly any changes of judges over the same span.

So a "dismal grasp of the situation" is only to be had with hindsight

through Thaksin provided rose colored glasses.

[animatic]

calling local villages and promising their headmen cash and power

to deliver their villages votes, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY.

how do you know that cash handouts have been promised in these telephone conversations?

and what about the actually cash hand outs by the government? the 2000 baht for the low income earner, the 500 baht for the elderly, the 2000 baht for the blinds? wouldn't be other forms to provide social support more effective in the long run than simple cash handouts?

Cash handouts have been happening forever here,

It would be idiotic to assume cash WAS NOT being handed out.

Certainly favors and power were on the table,

since that is the Kow Tow way of control.

An no doubt some carrot and stick strategy was in play also.

Since Thaksin is not at the top of the food chain at the moment

CASH and potential punishments are the easiest things he CAN dispense.

I did not for a MINUTE think that those two pre-election bombs were

intended to cause actual harm to voters, but were a sympathy vote getter.

Makes PTP look more besieged by those bad government plotters...

The Gov. 2,000 baht hand outs were to jump start the long ignored economy

by injecting spendable cash into the economy. It was not to everyone,

but to those that could with some discretion spend it rather than need to save it.

It remains to be seen if that helped the greater economy, but as a confidence booster

it seemed to have benefits. It showed some action as opposed to the endemic inaction

of the previous governments.

This was done by the world acknowledged valid government.

It is disingenuous to compare this with a convicted criminal

'leveraging' local Kamnan's and puyais to deliver their village votes.

Leveraging would be the financial way of putting it, the business way of putting it.

As opposed to graft, chicanery and corruption within party politics.

Edited June 23, 2009 by animatic

[HagenvonTronje]

the 2000 baht for the low income earner, the 500 baht for the elderly, the 2000 baht for the blinds? wouldn't be other forms to provide social support more effective in the long run than simple cash handouts?

Not necessarily.

Republicans and libertarians would argue that even collecting taxes is ineffective in the long run.

>>>

Going shopping is the fastest way to spend this tax money, if that was the point - getting fastest returns, it worked.

a libertarian like Milton Friedman would argue that you can not do good with other peoples money (tax money). and he is right.

but what have this do to with the suspicion of a possible form of 'vote buying' with that cash handouts? providing education or somekind of infrastructure that makes people able to set up their own businesses would be smarter, than a simple cash hand out.

the cash handouts can be described as an blatant attempt to buy sympathy. a shopping of voters with tax money. but i didn't worked out.

and a photo of Newin shake hands with Abhisit was maybe partly responsible that the Sakon Nakhon citizen vote for the other side.

[catmac]

How can the PTP be legal when their spokesman Chalerm openly tells the whole

Nation that Thaksin is the real leader, Banned from politics, Surely this party should go the same way as TRT PPP.

It seems it do not count when you lead by proxy. Phupaman

Using your logic, shouldn't Bhum Jai Thai Party also be banned, as everyone knows that its leader is Newin - a banned politician?

[catmac]

Quite amazed at the at the sheer hatred and viciousness of the anti-Thaksin brigade here!

Nothing amazing about people hating a convicted criminal who flees like a coward, refuses to accept punishment handed down by the Thai courts and who continues to stir up trouble in the country - all in the interests of saving his own precious scrawny arse.

What is amazing however, is that there are people like you who continue to speak in his defence (although you'll no doubt deny that) and mention his name in the same breath as the word democracy.

Read my post again, and tell me where I'm speaking in his defence.

You said that you were amazed that people hate Thaksin. Well i'm amazed that you are amazed!

If you have lived in this country for the last ten years or so you would know that there is plenty about him to hate - and the same goes for the vast majority of politicians in this country. They are out for themselves, driven by greed. It so happens that Thaksin has done a better job than most of the rest in using democracy for his own personal gain. Some perversely admire this about him. I don't.

And, of course, he did rather push a lot of the old hi-so elite snouts out of the trough! So I can fully understand why they hate him!

By the way, I have lived in Thailand for over 10 years, so please don't be so presumptuous. Your reading of history is not the only one, neither, for that matter, is mine. We state here our opinions, none of us has divine judgment!

Edited June 23, 2009 by catmac

[HagenvonTronje]

calling local villages and promising their headmen cash and power

to deliver their villages votes, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY.

how do you know that cash handouts have been promised in these telephone conversations?

Cash handouts have been happening forever here,

It would be idiotic to assume cash WAS NOT being handed out.

...

I did not for a MINUTE think that those two pre-election bombs were

intended to cause actual harm to voters, but were a sympathy vote getter.

Makes PTP look more besieged by those bad government plotters...

so actually it's all just your fantasy and talks of hot air, not facts. typical A. BLAH.

but okay, look at the the friends of Newin gang? are the free of any suspicion of vote buying?

and the bombs, just placed to gain sympathy? any evidence for this assumption? just another BLAH by A., this time in bold.

would it realy to far out to assume that the Bhum Jai Thai didn't win for a lot of other reasons? and haven't both side the smell of a 'leader' who is banned from politics?

that fact that YOU can not accept that the Puea Thai won this by-election has nothing to do with democracy.

[Koo82]

Next is Si Sa Ket.

Who will win?

[Plus]

what have this do to with the suspicion of a possible form of 'vote buying' with that cash handouts?

What vote buying? There aren't any elections on the horizon.

providing education or somekind of infrastructure that makes people able to set up their own businesses would be smarter, than a simple cash hand out.

There's no point in setting up new businesses when the exisiting ones can't survive for the lack of consumers. That would be a recipe for a disaster.

Current unemployment rate is less than a half of the expected rate, and just a tad higher than it was during times of economic growth.

Dems spent good money on education already, and infrastructure investments are in the current 1.3bil stimulus package.

[Koo82]

Dems spent good money on education already, and infrastructure investments are in the current 1.3bil stimulus package.

"Spent good money"? What is the result? Did the study free 15 years program start yet?

[Plus]

They spent money on uniforms, text books, supplies - that kind of stuff. 15 year free program is on the way, I think. There's a thread for it on TV.

About a third of people in Sakhon Nakhon didn't vote for Thaksin - in his own backyard.

[animatic]

Oh they won it, in the same old ways.

And those ways were never part of democracy in any real sense.

So blah blah yourself.

My opinion is that those bombs were window dressing.

Just by placement and timing, they were purposely ineffective.

In the south people would be dead and maimed.

And Hagon, I could care less what you think.

Saying blah blah blah is not an effective rebuttal technique.

And that is not a flame, that is just truth.

Something far and few in between here far too often.

And yes, 1/3 didn't vote for Thaksin's proxies.

Edited June 23, 2009 by animatic

[Koo82]

They spent money on uniforms, text books, supplies - that kind of stuff. 15 year free program is on the way, I think. There's a thread for it on TV.

I don't know what they do, but the fee for my son cost 6,000 Baht more than last term. Some students protested at school.

What's the result for the 2,000 Baht stimulus package?

[sriracha john]

They spent money on uniforms, text books, supplies - that kind of stuff. 15 year free program is on the way, I think. There's a thread for it on TV.

I don't know what they do, but the fee for my son cost 6,000 Baht more than last term. Some students protested at school.

As said, there's a separate thread for that discussion, but it doesn't cover private schools (presuming that with your high income and talk about increasing fees, that you don't send your son to a government school).

You can find out more here and also find a place for your discussion:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/15-Years-Fre...La-t250555.html

15 Years Of Free Education Program Launched

Edited June 23, 2009 by sriracha john

[HagenvonTronje]

what have this do to with the suspicion of a possible form of 'vote buying' with that cash handouts?

What vote buying? There aren't any elections on the horizon.

...

Dems spent good money on education already,...

the connection came with context in the entry where i mentioned the cash handouts first in this thread. i juxtapose the actual fact of the governments cash handouts with the fantasy of A. that Thaksin promised money in some telephone calls.

and i would describe it as an attempt to buy sympathy. there is no question that this government lacks the overall support by the people and all parts of the society. it is some goodwill gesture by the government for the poorer. i don't believe that this cash handout worked as stimulus package and big boost for the economy. waste of tax money. other people can not do good with other peoples money, i share the Milton Friedman approach here. but anyway, if you want improve something with tax money, cash handouts for the poor is just the fastest way to waste tax money without much sucess of any improvement.

the good money for education? the government cut down the budget spend on education and one of their solution to "improve" the education is to hire more administrative officers. this is discussed on TVforum in this thread.

looks for me like fighting the unemployment rate with a blow up of the bureaucratic and administrative machine. (people working there are the same people that got send to the 'white shirt protests')

[HagenvonTronje]

And Hagon, I could care less what you think.

Saying blah blah blah is not an effective rebuttal technique.

And that is not a flame, that is just truth.

Something far and few in between here far too often.

my question was if you could prove your fiction with facts. you can not substantiate your statements and it turns out that this was just your fantasies. i call this BLAH. it doesn't require a detailed rebuttal.

[animatic]

Not having wire tapped their phones, doesn't invalidate logical supposition.

I don't need to give you facts. That's for the E.C. to discover.

Facts are for court trials and end in jail sentences...

oops he skips out on those.

If those phones could have been tapped in the right time frame,

there is only so much 'leverage' Thaksin can apply from his position.

If it's only his 'Legend" that he is selling, then no reason to call at all.

If there is patronage to guaruntee and / or threats of political isolation to deliver

then those are good reasons to call. Just because you can't be the fly on the wall

doesn't mean you can not UNDERSTAND what's going on.

Historically working models are repeated till they don't work.

Thaksin has nothing to lose by breaking election laws repeatedly to regain power.

Because regaining power is the goal, not staying within the law.

But some are too blinded to see what is blatant and gory in the extreme...

[Koo82]

As said, there's a separate thread for that discussion, but it doesn't cover private schools (presuming that with your high income and talk about increasing fees, that you don't send your son to a government school).

I didn't know 100,000 Baht a month is called "high income" You made me laugh so hard.

[Siripon]

People shouldn't read too much into a Newin- Thaksin confrontration. In constituency voting many will vote for the person they like and in this election Anurak Boonson was a well known and popular local figure. Her rival was up against it from the start.

Pumjaithai will learn from this.

[HagenvonTronje]

So a wife of a guy caught for buying votes wins an election, and Thaksin makes personal phone calls - what a day for democracy indeed!

Will these people ever learn anything?

Nope - all they want back to power and here seem to be a bundle

of people who support these de facto thieve clans!

just looking at some of the evidence, hard to imagine why!

What evidence for what?

Why not stay with the truth? The husband, Pongsak Boonson, of the winning candidate Anurak Boonson wasn't caught with vote buying. that is not true.

Pongsak was red-carded for "making defamatory remarks about the Puea Pandin Party during his campaign." Ohh, what a crime!

On a sidenote, Pongsak was also part of the so called 'Friends of Newin' faction in the PPP, until september last year.