Wsj article about swf in thailand

[dropout]

I have to admit after reading this article, I feel sorry for the SWF living in Thailand.  Hope it is of some help to those of you on this board.

BANGKOK, Thailand -- It's a dream job: a high-level position in Bangkok with an interesting company and an expatriate's salary. A beautiful company-subsidized apartment that takes up one floor of a luxury building. A maid, a car and a driver on call 24 hours a day.

But for Julie Sleva, a Canadian citizen who is an executive with L'Oreal, the French cosmetics firm, the dream becomes hollow when she leaves her office. Although young and by any definition attractive, Ms. Sleva has had to face the often lonely life of a Western female expat professional on a continent where men rule the roost -- a life with no serious relationships and rarely a date.

"Outside of the office, it's tough," says "thirty-something" Ms. Sleva.

This is a story that reinforces stereotypes that some people will reject, and other people, like Julie Sleva, will endorse wholeheartedly: For single Western men, Asia can be a paradise of exotic, beautiful women more than willing to pamper them and inflate their egos. The perks of an expat life -- low-priced maids, company-paid drivers and members-only clubs -- relieve married couples of many of life's daily hassles, including the chores of child-rearing.

But for single Western Caucasian women like Ms. Sleva, it's a different story. Accomplishments in the office are often overshadowed by solitary private lives, and even the most casual Saturday-night date with a man is a distant memory. Many such women feel that their chances of having relationships are negligible while they stay in Asia.

For Ms. Sleva, whose marriage to a Canadian man ended seven years ago, it is a constant frustration. Although she's happy to date both Thai men and foreigners, she says that "you never see Thai men with expat women, and expat men are either married, gay or have a young Thai girl hanging on to their arm. You sit in a car near Soi Nana [a popular night-entertainment district] and you can't believe what walks out of that place -- the ugliest, grossest men with beautiful Thai women. It's so easy for the Western man."

Ms. Sleva's experience in Asia as a single Western woman is far from unusual. Many other expatriate women I spoke to for this article echoed her sentiments. Yet the subject is taboo. Beyond the fact that it is a deeply personal, often painful element of life for women such as Ms. Sleva, discussing it opens up a minefield of sexual and racial stereotypes.

In many cases, the stereotypes are accurate. But not always. Some Western men in Asia meet and marry smart or high-powered Asian women -- or overseas-born Asian women who are far more interested in succeeding in their careers than in indulging their husbands' every whim. Some Western women are happy to be out of the dating game and in a world where they -- like their single-mindedly workaholic male counterparts -- can devote themselves to climbing the corporate ladder with more visibility than they might enjoy in the U.S. or Europe. Indeed, some don't feel they need to have a partner or a family to have a rewarding life outside the office and are offended at the suggestion that they would. There are other single Western women who either have a string of romances or meet their life partner while living in Asia. And single overseas-born Asian women living in Asia have their own set of experiences that in some cases may parallel those of single Western women and in other cases be totally different.

LEARNING TO LOVE BEING ALONE

Psychologists say that one of the most difficult things for single people both women and men -- is being alone. Hong Kong psychologist Melanie Bryan notes that "being alone, being comfortable with yourself, is actually very healthy." Personal Journal asked two experienced counselors in Asia -- David Bailey, a counselor for Psychological Services International in Bangkok, and Ms. Bryan -- for tips about how not just to cope, but to enjoy being single.

From Melanie Bryan:

• Maintain a healthy balance between your personal and professional life; target your priorities in both categories.

• Keep focused on your needs, because so many can be satisfied by yourself, independent of a relationship.

• Pursue cultural interests, such as going to films, the theater, art exhibitions and wine tastings. Don't stop yourself because you're not in a relationship.

• Maintain family contacts to give yourself a feeling of being connected.

From David Bailey:

• Take advantage of counseling services, which are available in most major urban areas.

• Join groups devoted to professional people or community service, charities or a foreign correspondents' club if you're interested in world affairs.

• Be proactive; create your life by going out and finding people, because they're not going to find you.

 

 

Still, the difficulties of many single Caucasian women in Asia offer a window into a little-acknowledged cultural phenomenon that is so widespread that counselors who cater to expatriates see it on a daily basis. "It takes a toll," says Melanie Bryan, a psychologist in Hong Kong. Ms. Bryan's client base alone is telling: 50% of her clients are single Western women. "People don't get a sense of self-worth from just one part of their lives," she notes. "Because a woman is a professional doesn't mean she lacks aspirations for a relationship as well, and quite often these aspirations have to be put on hold. I see women drink more. I definitely see them depressed. I had a new patient the other day just hammering away at herself. She felt washed up at age 36."

Ms. Bryan, who has herself been a single woman in Asia for the past 12 years, calls the problems of loneliness and lack of relationships "a major source of anguish" that can be reflected in other ways, including "gaining weight, feeling badly about themselves and feeling that they're unattractive to men."

Many of the women who agree with such views are willing to tell their stories only if their names aren't attached. Two women I spoke to, who have had various Asian postings for United Nations agencies, described their schizophrenic lives -- great accomplishments in their U.N. positions contrasted with great loneliness outside work. One of them, a U.S. citizen, said she had given up hope of a relationship or children, but the rewards of her work over more than a decade in Asia made the sacrifices worthwhile. While she wanted to use her name, she said that "this wouldn't go over well with the U.N." Another woman, an American who has worked in Asia for a consumer-products company for four years, says it didn't take her long to learn what awaited her. "Before they transferred me, my company sent me to Asia for a look-see," she says. "On the plane coming back I met a woman leaving Asia after eight years. After a few Jack Daniels, she told me, "Honey, Asia is single-man heaven and single-woman ####." "

"The dating scene is 'forget it,' " this feisty executive adds. "Most Western men are married, and if they're not married, they're playing around big-time. And I don't look anything like those sweet little Thai women."

Of course, Asia isn't the only place single women lament the lack of eligible partners. The phenomenon is so strongly rooted that it is enshrined in the annals of pop culture. English writer Helen Fielding documented the single woman's dilemma in her best-seller, "Bridget Jones's Diary," which was turned into the 2001 movie starring Hugh Grant and Renee Zellweger. In the U.S., the problem's resonance can be seen in the continuing success of the HBO series "Sex and the City," which looks at the lives of four single thirty-something women in New York.

But in Asia, the fact that the issue is rarely acknowledged means that such feelings are compounded by a lack of understanding and a sense of stigma that doesn't exist in the West to nearly the same degree. "Why do you not have a husband?" is a question that taxi drivers, maids, shop assistants and even the most casual Asian acquaintances don't hesitate to throw at women both Western and Asian -- whom they discover are single.

"It certainly is difficult for a single Western career woman anywhere in Asia to have a fulfilling life," says David Bailey, a counselor in Bangkok with Psychological Services International. "The cultural issues are difficult enough for male executives. Most companies don't adequately prepare their executives for living overseas, and they assume they have their personal lives sorted out."

For Ms. Sleva, the situation didn't come as a surprise when she moved from Montreal to Bangkok in January because she had already traveled extensively in Asia for business. But for others, particularly men, learning about the extent of the problems that a single Western woman in Asia faces might be startling. They reach far beyond the difficulty of finding a date and include humiliations that a man would never encounter.

Ms. Sleva made one of her initial visits to Asia while working for a Canadian cosmetics company in the 1980s. She flew to Tokyo to see a Japanese supplier who manufactured scissors. "They didn't know what to do with me, having a single woman to entertain," she recalls. "So they decided to do just what they'd do with a man they took me to a geisha bar. Immediately two beautiful women sat on either side of the supplier, on either side of the translator and on either side of me. The men were groping the women, and then the women who were next to me started stroking my legs. I didn't know what to do."

Ms. Sleva, who has long brown hair, strikingly large blue-green eyes and a ready smile, is general manager of L'Oreal's professional-products division in Thailand, which oversees placement of the company's goods in beauty salons. Speaking at L'Oreal's fashionable, stark-white suite of offices in a Bangkok central business district high-rise, she radiates the confidence of an executive who loves her work and knows she has mastered it. She looks upon bridging the cultural gaps between herself and her 59 Thai employees in the division's marketing, sales and finance departments as a challenge, not a problem.

But there's another Julie Sleva -- a woman who won't walk anywhere alone at night in Bangkok. When she walks to her fitness center in the early morning, "I just keep my head down." Bangkok is not an especially dangerous city, and Ms. Sleva herself would be the first to acknowledge that an assault against a foreign woman would be an unusual occurrence. But overwhelming that logic is the psychological impact of a life without a partner to know or care about your movements in a city where a Western woman walking alone is met by disparaging remarks and often hostile stares. "It's the staring," she says. "The lack of confidence being alone. The men would never stare if I were with a man. Security guards ask all the time, 'You look for boyfriend?' " While staring would be much less of a problem in Chinese societies such as Hong Kong, where people tend to avoid eye contact with strangers, in numerous other Asian countries including Thailand, Malaysia and India people stare unashamedly.

The other Julie Sleva is reluctant to leave her hotel room at night when she travels to other Asian cities -- even to eat dinner. Few men would think twice about venturing out at night in Asian cities, but women generally are constantly aware of their physical vulnerability. Ms. Sleva recounts an evening at a five-star hotel in Hong Kong when she decided that she was tired of ordering dinner from room service. "I told myself I'm going to go out and do something," she says. "I didn't leave the hotel, but at least I went to a restaurant, their sushi bar. I started speaking to a European man sitting with a Japanese woman; since he was with a woman, I thought it would be safe. He invited me to join them at a popular nightclub. But as soon as we arrived, he started to make a move on me. His plan was for me to join him and his girlfriend for the entire night. I took a taxi home alone.

"That," she concludes, "is what you run into in an effort to have some companionship."

Like many female Western professionals in Asia, Ms. Sleva tends to work 12-hour days -- not only out of dedication to her job, but because it means she can avoid facing the lack of a romantic life. While many affluent people living in Asia look forward to long weekends away in exotic destinations with their partners, Ms. Sleva's long weekends are often spent with expat couples "who are kind enough to let me tag along. You feel like a third wheel, but it's better than going alone." She takes longer vacations with a longtime gay male friend from Canada.

Eternally upbeat and cheerful, Ms. Sleva says she doesn't let the lack of a relationship get her down. "I'm delighted I moved here," she says. "Honestly, I'm so busy at work I don't have much time for reflection. But on the odd occasion when I see what looks to be an interesting relationship, on moments of reflection, it would be: 'Gee, I wish I could.' " As for the lack of a sex life in Thailand, she notes that "what you don't get, you don't crave. Besides, I have too much work."

The contrast between the lives of single expat men and women in Asia is strikingly illustrated by Ms. Sleva's friend and co-executive, Martin Mirmand, the general manager of L'Oreal's luxury division, which places products in boutiques and department stores. Both Mr. Mirmand and Ms. Sleva are young, attractive executives. But there the similarities end. Mr. Mirmand, a 32-year-old Frenchman who has lived most of his life abroad, finds his expat existence to be "very easy from a lifestyle point of view, the comforts of living, the opportunities to do things after work."

Thailand, he says, "is a very special place" -- so much so that he constantly has to remind himself that "easy stuff is not necessarily what you want the most. Things can't always be easy." He says he generally avoids sex districts and wants much more out of a relationship than a compliant wife. Still, when asked what he doesn't like about Thailand, he responds that "a downside is everything closes at 2 a.m." He notes that "it's very easy to be a man in Thailand, that is for sure."

By stark contrast, except for nights when she has a work function, life in the evenings for Ms. Sleva is far removed from bars and nightclubs. Sometimes there are social engagements with friends, mostly gay Western men (who also are often also categorized as leading an easy life in Asia). But frequently, she'll stay home and eat a spicy Thai salad that her maid has prepared. She occasionally dines out alone in neighborhood restaurants, taking a book, but problems can pop up. "There's a small family-run Indian restaurant nearby," she says. "I had friends here and we ate there. Then I went back on my own, and the teenage son stood near me through the entire meal and stared. It was so uncomfortable that now I get takeout there."

Marisa Vidaurre, director of St. John's Cathedral Counseling Services in Hong Kong, says that Ms. Sleva's story is one she has heard time and again from her clients. "What they relate to me is that expat men are not interested in women who are going to be challenging," she states. "A lot more Asian women culturally find it easier to make men feel better about everything they do. It's hard for a man to resist when every word out of your mouth is a pearl of wisdom and every joke is funny." Beyond dating, she points out, "if you're an expatriate woman, you find that a lot of the expat social life is geared toward families. Schools and sports become social forums."

Why, then, do many expat women not move back to the West? One reason, Ms. Vidaurre says, is that "your career track can be quite rewarding in Asia. When you go back, you are one among the many. It's harder to do special things."

Despite her issues living in Bangkok, Ms. Sleva wouldn't consider asking for a transfer back to Canada or the U.S. She counts as very strong assets a satisfying job and a chance to immerse herself in a new culture. She says she has accepted psychologically the liabilities of being in Asia: the absence both of a man in her life and the possibility of having children. "My friends assume I'm going to meet Mr. Right, and I answer, 'Never here,' " she says. "Many years ago I wanted children, but my career interfered with that, and I compensated by having dogs."

Still, the acceptance of reality doesn't stop a recurrent dream. "I'd like to meet somebody at least as worldly as I am," she says, "who also loves to experience exotic cultures. I'd like the one grand passion in life I've never had."

[Nat]

Dropout that's a brilliant article.

Think it is very hard for western women in asian countries. The roles of women in western society have undergone huge changes in the last few decades, whereas in asia it has been a bit slower. Western women now have to weigh up what's more important in life, a career or family. Some successfully have both, but it is very hard work. Many women emmerse themselves in their work and have great fulfillment in their achievements. However outside of work life can appear quite empty. As the psychologist in the article mentioned it can be quite healthy being on your own, as long as your life is balanced. It is hard for the western woman in asia, but guess it comes down to the reasons they are there and what they ultimately want out of life.

Nat  

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I agree...it is a brilliant article, and a sobering one for a male expat to read. Despite being worldly, I had no idea such difficulties existed for women here. I'll discuss this with friends.  Thank you.

[Boo]

Agreed, it is a very thought provoking article & one where I can relate to on some points...but...I think that as a western woman coming to Asia alone, you have to put yourself out there & make friends the hard way, by trying over & over again. Locking yourself in your apartment & being afraid of a few people staring at you is the worse thing you can do in a place like thailand, being stared at is a way of life for most farang women in most asia countries, being taller, having bigger boobs, having blond/red/curly or wavy hair makes us different from the bulk standard amount of asian women & when someone stares it is usually just blatent curisoity.

I for one just carry on regardless & after a while they usually look away, or if pushed & they stare for too long, just stare back until they feel suitably uncomfortable & look away first.

As a women coming to Thailand alone & staying, takes guts & if these women are still in the same predicament in 6 months after coming here then I don't think they should stay, their own happiness & mental health & having a satisfactory home life & good friends is more important than any job in my book anyway.

[samuisam]

This article describes how many of my American male friends feel living in America...

[mrentoul]

As the psychologist in the article mentioned it can be quite healthy being on your own, as long as your life is balanced.

It can be hard to find the balance, in your work life or your personal life. My life has seldom been ''balanced'' in that respect.

I have a Thai friend with whom I work. He has been at the same company for 30 years and seen western women come and go. They never stay long, he says, because Bangkok is a man's city, not a place for women.

I suspect western women are happiest here when they have already found a mate, often another westerner. It is unusual to see a western woman with a Thai man, but of course common to see western men with Thai women.

As for staring, I don't mind it, for the most part. I walked to ther mall the other day, less than 5mins from where I live, in an all-Thai part of town. I admit the stares made me feel uncomfortable, but for the most part I find the attention flattering. I do plenty of staring myself, if I like the look of someone, so I can hardly complain.

[Axel]

Sure it is not easy for a single woman. I have one friend, 35 years in Asia, the last 12 right here in Bangkok. She buries herself in work, has her occasional drink in some pubs, dreams of the past and talks at home to her cats.

To make friends is extremely difficult, many of the expats move in their own circle, have Asian wifes and/or (ooops) girlfriends, so the western Caucasian woman somehow has no place in the group.

An afterthought. Many expats arrive in Thailand with wife (from home), their work keeps them pretty busy until late into the night(s) incl. taking care of meetings, entertaining the overseas visitors and the wife from home stays home. So in my feeling it is not only the female expat, it is as well the wife of the male expat who suffers and sooner or later goes home, either alone or 'ruins' the husband's career.

[Boo]

JonCron, Thanks for the compliment & it's nice to know that there are some guys out there who still like & want to meet farang women in LOS but please remember that this is a site for all women & many nice thai women use it on a regular basis. Your personal feelings towrds them are your own but posting as above is a sure fire way to be flamed in a million different ways!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I agree Boo. With an attitude like that would ANY woman want to know him? Post removed without apology.

[mrentoul]

I bumped into the 'hard copy'' (ie a real newspaper) version of the article last night.

Julie Sleva, the woman mentioned in it, is attractive by anyone's yardstick, I imagine...but the funny thing is, she looks Asian, at least from my cursory glance at her pics.

Maybe Thai men assume she must have found someone already? I have no idea...on the other hand, she does look rather tall in the pictures, so maybe that is why she catches so many stares. She is pictured in the skytrain, and again at a flower market, and as I say, she looks terrific.

[Nat]

Julie Sleva, the woman mentioned in it, is attractive by anyone's yardstick, I imagine...but the funny thing is, she looks Asian, at least from my cursory glance at her pics.

Maybe Thai men assume she must have found someone already? I have no idea...on the other hand, she does look rather tall in the pictures, so maybe that is why she catches so many stares. She is pictured in the skytrain, and again at a flower market, and as I say, she looks terrific.

Maybe I'm just a bit naive but I would have thought she wouldn't have any problems meeting a guy if she was attractive. However it is a good point that maybe the thai men assume she's taken (but you know what they say about assumption.....)  

Another interesting point is that she looked asian. Quite a few thai guys I've spoken to have mentioned that they prefer western looking women, in particular fair skin - not sure how wide spread this view is, but could be another reason for her not meeting someone. Just a theory I'm throwing out there  ???

[Butterfly]

I think she is not looking hard or think she still in a western culture where men fight each other to have the "right" to pay for her dinner. Here, things are quite different. Thai or farang men are not in hurry to meet women, and when they are, they go to the bars.

Also, she is probably moving in circle where it is difficult to find available men. She should book a plane to Kho Samui, dress like a hippie and she will have a ton of young horny males (Thai and farangs) jumping on her. Pure heaven.

[samran]

I hope I don't incur the wrath of too many girls here, but these are just my observations....

I concur with what Samuisam wrote. Coming to Thailand makes tend to make the average SWF know what its like for the average single bloke back home. It not easy to meet members of the opposite sex!!

I've always been amazed by the amount of SWF's I've met in BKK, mainly through playing sports or by through getting to know my girlfriends friends.  These girls could have gotten as many dates as they wanted back home, but here they can't even get a stare, let alone some bloke to chat to the them.

This has been a dinner party topic of conversation amongst us for a long time. The major concensus is that most of them wouldn't go out with a thai guy (for various reasons), but would love to meet a single farang guy. This is mainly impossible cause most single farang guys here have what some of us like to call "bamboo fever", ie liking asian girls.

What happens here is the tables are really turned in the dating game...for better for for worse.

Trying to meet a girl back home is not easy. I've noticed that girls when back home are very defensive when a strange guy comes up to them (and justifiably so). But that outer defensivness usually disappears after a couple of months in LOS.  

As strange side effect of this is that farang girls here (from a my perspective at least) are a tonne more approachable than they would be back home. Either that, or I have become incrediably good looking since I moved to Thailand....NOT!!  

[JonChron]

What is ms Sleva's contact info? I wanna meet her cuz she sounds like my type.

[Nat]

Either that, or I have become incrediably good looking since I moved to Thailand....NOT!!

samran I'm sure you've always been a bit of a looker    it's just that the girls were to shy to approach you  

It does seem as though the tables are turned - esp if you're not attracted to thai men. There are many reasons why farang women move to thailand, but if it's in search of love than life may be a bit tricky but stranger things have happened   .

[mrentoul]

It does seem as though the tables are turned - esp if you're not attracted to thai men

I guess there are some who aren't, but I reckon Thai men (and women) look incredible.

[Nat]

but I reckon Thai men (and women) look incredible.

mmmm....so do I!  

[chonabot]

What is ms Sleva's contact info? I wanna meet her cuz she sounds like my type.

But she looks Asian , apparently , aren't you the plonker who only digs white women?        

[invex]

I like that article but have no clear view on it. Is it reality or just created in the brains of a drunk journalist?.....Where are they? Pls tell me. I never ever had the opportunity to get in touch with one of them.

I have never seen a website hosting them, I have never seen an ad in a newspaper or magazine. Where are they?.....Anyway, my dream comes closer to me now that I know they're out there with dozens.

Thanks for the info WSJ.

[email protected]

[sbk]

The article brought back all sorts of memories for me, when I left home I first lived in  a small town in Taiwan, teaching english. Other than the two mormon missionaries, I was the only westerner. Needless to say, we did not hang out together. However, altho I never found any of the Taiwanese men attractive (guys who could wrap their belts around their waist twice never appealed), I still had many friends and acquaintances (male and female). I think your social life in a city as large as Bangkok is what you make of it, I somehow think that if you really didn't want to be stuck at home, that you wouldn't  have to be. As far as Thai men being interested, I think most Thai men would be a little fearful of approaching a western woman, mainly not sure of how to deal, I suspect, not out of any lack of interest.