What's Wrong With Thaivisa.com And Many Of Its Forumers?

[eek]

A keyword on google produced this in its list of links. Its an opinion (on another forum) regarding some of the kinds of things written on ThaiVisa.com, from a Thai persons perspective:

What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?

** Rant warning **

Proceed with caution as my opinion may sound like a rant to you.

Ok, I have to get this off my chest. It never fails to amaze me how negative and cynical the expats community in Thailand can be. I know that I have to be fair about this, and I definitely hope to believe that most farangs in Thailand are nice and friendly and are willing to embrace the Thai culture since they have decided to settle or work here anyway. But every time I browse through their forum at thaivisa.com, especially threads concerning the Thai people, the new airport and Bangkok in general, I never fail to come across many sarcastic, cynical and harsh comments about anything and everything associated with Thailand. We all know that our country is imperfect in many ways and we ourselves aren't too happy with a lot of stuffs that are going on, but the level of negative-ness found at Thaivisa.com is unbelievably intense and I cannot help but feel a brimming sense of superiority complex among its members. While it is heartache to read some of the strong opinions and derisive words, I simply cannot help but think why would anyone be so sour over a country and still choose not to pack and leave (since most members there seem to have made it clear that countries like Singapore, Malaysia are so much better than here or that their country of origin (European countries / America / Australia) are so much greater than Thailand).

There are plenty of examples of degrading jokes directed at Thai women, ladyboys, and many are very keen at highlighting the general incompetence and laziness of the Thai people or to pass off "damned if you do and damned if you don't" or "this will never make it" kind of opinions. Whether these are intended as jokes or to what extend that their comments are true is not my main focus here (while I do admit that Thailand and the Thai people will have to pull our socks in many ways), it is my feeling that many farangs there simply loathe Thailand and still not finding themselves taking the next flight out. Can these people be those old pot-belly farangs in shorts and slippers strolling down the road of Pattaya with a beautiful Thai girl young enough to be his daughter? Or could they be those middle-age high-pay / high-bonus BTS warriors in suits from the wealthy West who firmly believe that 'farangs are always right or better'? Sometimes, based on some of the sweeping comments which are overwhelmingly negative littering the mentioned forum, it's hard to think about how these individuals could live a life without secretly looking down upon the locals. No matter who these people are, there seems to be a growing community of expats who migrate here simply to whine or become so full of themselves that they make sure that their acerbic opinions are either heard through 'letters to the editor' published in the local English dailies or at least made clear in an online 'farang forum'. Should this be taking place in Singapore, I believe that the locals would have responded furiously to counter many of their criticisms but it's always unfortunate that Thais are generally not as vocal or are not so confident in their command of English or it maybe a simple reality that Thais and the local expats use different forums as platforms of their online discussion.

One of the trends which I have observed at thaivisa.com is the level of ignorance exhibit by many members there on issues related to Thailand. When these ignorance are exchanged at the forum, if left uncorrected, sometimes evolve into an even more ridiculous ignorance or a wild misunderstanding of what is really going on in the country. Part of blame may be due to our lack of communication skills in English, hence the Thai media and the Thai people in general are not very good at explaining in-depth of what is really going on with regards to some issues. This means that these expats are often left on their own to interpret what they think might be happening -- sometimes based on facts mixed with Google journalism and sometimes based on prejudiced views brought with them from the West. If you regularly browse through some of the views at thaivisa.com, you'll be unpleasantly surprised to find how much misunderstanding there are from individuals who seem to have settled and lived in Thailand for a decade or so.

I must admit that most Thais don't fancy criticisms at all, be it one brimming with good intentions or remarks simply aimed at deflating one's ego, so it may be time that we learn to live with a bit of 'feedback' from the outsider point-of-view. However, I cannot see how such sheer cynicism, bitterness, pessimism, schadenfreude and superior complex that are often passed off as "jokes" can become something which can easily go down the throat of even the most liberal-minded Thais without stirring in him a feeling of disgust and distrust towards farangs? Don't the people at thaivisa.com ever remember that there might be many silent Thai audiences around who may find some of their comments bordering rude or even offensive? Or maybe they don't even care about feelings at all? Personally, I never expect online discussion boards to be politically correct or diplomatic, so while I welcome a regular dose of constructive criticisms, balanced views and objective debates, I feel that it shouldn't be too much to ask for more culturally sensitive comments from the majority of forumers there.

By sharing my views here I know that I am about to land myself in a hot seat. But before you shoot my opinions down, I'd urge those who take pleasures in seeing things not going right in Thailand to pause for a moment and think that regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, this could be the kind of reaction that a typical Thai person would have upon reading some of the dark and tasteless comments that have been cruelly crafted. There's this deep-rooted concept of 'kreng jai' in the Thai psyche, so when one shows restrain while being negative, respect would be earned and reciprocated in kind, and I believe that this will go a long way in making sure that a farang's stay in Thailand a pleasant one.

There were also some interesting replies.

I think its against tv rules to post a direct link, right? So just google "What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?" for the source if you wish to read more.

[MiG16]

valid points made eek

the reason i started to post on TV initially was to try and engage such farangs, to try and share some explanation about why things are done the way they are in thailand, but after many attempts i realised they were not looking for any understandig of the reasoning, but simply want to complain.

so I stopped bothering to engage in discussions. particularly the numerous remarks about thai women being after their money

[JohnGotti]

that guy has alot of time on his hands.

[jfchandler]

I voted with my feet... I used to live in the USA... I chose to move and live here in BKK...

If I didn't like it or want to be here, I'd go somewhere else... But, overall, I like it here.

I'm not one of the ones who is prone to posting negative or cynical comments about Thailand.

That said, there are a lot of things about society here that could be improved. Same can be said, of course, for USA and elsewhere.

[t.s]

A keyword on google produced this in its list of links. Its an opinion (on another forum) regarding some of the kinds of things written on ThaiVisa.com, from a Thai persons perspective:

What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?

** Rant warning **

Proceed with caution as my opinion may sound like a rant to you.

...post truncated...

There's this deep-rooted concept of 'kreng jai' in the Thai psyche, so when one shows restrain while being negative, respect would be earned and reciprocated in kind, and I believe that this will go a long way in making sure that a farang's stay in Thailand a pleasant one.

There were also some interesting replies. all 2 of them?

I think its against tv rules to post a direct link, right? So just google "What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?" for the source if you wish to read more.

while i agree with most of the posters opinions, i feel the need to point out that us westerners do not share this sense of kreng jai, nor do we really comprehend it.

while many here at tv could be a little more considered when expressing opinions, our treatment of each other is equally lacking in kreng jai.

myself, i see KJ as one of the the root causes of everything that makes thailand both wonderful and frustrating.

btw i just read the OP in context. it was posted in 2004.

Edited June 30, 2009 by t.s

[WaiWai]

That said, there are a lot of things about society here that could be improved. Same can be said, of course, for USA and elsewhere.

Precisely.

I think that is a point many Thais don't quite appreciate. Many of us come from countries where media and people generally are often very engaged in whatever maybe happening at a local, provincial or national level. Discussion is considered usual and a form of participation, and may often be critical. Being critical is not seen as a fault. In Australia, certainly, a degree of cynicism and anti-authoritarianism is considered the norm. [One political party's slogan was (is?) "Keep the b******s honest".]

If anything, I think many expats are highly aware of the sensitivity of the Thai national "face".

Amongst themselves, though, expats may tend to compensate for their daily efforts at face maintenance -- but that's the same with expats all around the world, too.

I think it's true that a certain sub-group of expats in Thailand are highly cynical, sometimes embittered people. I know of many such people and their outlook on life is often, in fact, understandable. Again, this would apply to sub-groups of expats around the world. Perhaps there are more such people here? I don't know.

Some expats become cynical and embittered after time/experiences here, too.

Perhaps Thailand and its people need to look at themselves more critically to understand why some expats react as they do? (Open question.)

Edited June 30, 2009 by WaiWai

[robblok]

valid points made eek

the reason i started to post on TV initially was to try and engage such farangs, to try and share some explanation about why things are done the way they are in thailand, but after many attempts i realised they were not looking for any understandig of the reasoning, but simply want to complain.

so I stopped bothering to engage in discussions. particularly the numerous remarks about thai women being after their money

I think you just have to accept your country isnt perfect, i accept mine isnt perfect and i complain just as much on a Dutch forum (even more) then here. Only on the Dutch forum i usually complain about the police and government.

Here i complain about the scams and crazy things that are done. I think Thais should just accept that its normal to criticize things. There are plenty of good things too in Thailand else i would not stay here.

As a guy it pays here to be careful with Thai girls, i made my mistake and i wish i had known what i do now. That doesn't mean all thai woman are bad there are enough good ones that i have met.

I think what i mean to say is that everyone always has problems with certain things and spits them out. But you should remember only ppl who really hate it here leave. So there must be enough keeping them here.

[Theyreallrubbish]

It used to be said there was a time cycle of a foreigner's relationship with Thailand with the first year or two them loving Thailand, then from the second year onwards they hate it and think Thai's are stupid (yet paradoxically simultaneously smart enough to rip off foreigners) then in years 3-5 onwards a more balanced view takes root seeing the positives in perspective with the negatives

The number of people with negative views of Thailand does certainly seem to have increased recently. I wonder if its due to a wave of foreigners arriving a few years ago as many people cashed out of Western housing markets with sufficient cash to stay long term in Thailand and that "bump" of arrivals is hitting the "hate Thailand" phase.

Although I also see here, people who have been here for decades who are changing their view of Thailand to become more negative and I wonder if its related to changes in Thailand itself and the behaviour of the Thai government and Thai people.

I certainly feel that the Thai people have lost something in the last ten years and they seem much more stressed and unhappy than they used to be, despite being materially better off.

And the actions of certain political parties in stoking Thai nationalism for political purposes hasn't helped.

Plus, the internet means that scams, ripoffs and mistreatment of foreigners is instantly communicated worldwide, whereas before only a tiny fraction of the incidents would have been known by anyone outside the immediate circle of participants.

I have to admit, I feel more paranoid and less comfortable in Thailand now than I used to and am more suspicious and defensive towards Thai people than I used to be. Perhaps its not paranoia though as I've been stolen from three times in the last year compared to zero times in the 15 years before that so maybe something real has changed and the forums are expressing (albeit bluntly) foreigner's reaction to these changes

[Old Croc]

I must admit that most Thais don't fancy criticisms at all, be it one brimming with good intentions or remarks simply aimed at deflating one's ego, so it may be time that we learn to live with a bit of 'feedback' from the outsider point-of-view. However, I cannot see how such sheer cynicism, bitterness, pessimism, schadenfreude and superior complex that are often passed off as "jokes" can become something which can easily go down the throat of even the most liberal-minded Thais without stirring in him a feeling of disgust and distrust towards farangs? Don't the people at thaivisa.com ever remember that there might be many silent Thai audiences around who may find some of their comments bordering rude or even offensive? Or maybe they don't even care about feelings at all? Personally, I never expect online discussion boards to be politically correct or diplomatic, so while I welcome a regular dose of constructive criticisms, balanced views and objective debates, I feel that it shouldn't be too much to ask for more culturally sensitive comments from the majority of forumers there.

By sharing my views here I know that I am about to land myself in a hot seat. But before you shoot my opinions down, I'd urge those who take pleasures in seeing things not going right in Thailand to pause for a moment and think that regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, this could be the kind of reaction that a typical Thai person would have upon reading some of the dark and tasteless comments that have been cruelly crafted. There's this deep-rooted concept of 'kreng jai' in the Thai psyche, so when one shows restrain while being negative, respect would be earned and reciprocated in kind, and I believe that this will go a long way in making sure that a farang's stay in Thailand a pleasant one.

Intersting sentiments and incrediably well written for someone for whom English is a second lanquage.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Old Croc

[robblok]

Intersting sentiments and incrediably well written for someone for whom English is a second lanquage.

Im really impressed with it too, was real nicely written.

[Lancelot]

Hi Eek, thanks for sharing a Thai perspective. Its interesting to hear a Thai opinion about foreigners in Thailand.

Sometimes we are a bit critical of Thailand, with some observations valid and others a bit petty. I believe part of the problem is simply a difference in cultures-westerners see something they disagree with and they speak out while most Thais pretend not to notice. Another problem is certain areas of Thailand are over touristed and familiarity breeds contempt.

Again, thanks for sharing

Edited June 30, 2009 by Lancelot

[BLUEEYEDTHAI]

Kun eek,This is my first post so please bear with me. What a thoughtful composition,and i could not agree more.We farangs in T'lnd are indeed stangers in a strange land,and should be ever mindful that it is not only we farangs who are reading what we post. T'lnd and it's people are not perfect,but then who is? I for one look forward to hearing more thai opinions,not only about politics,but how the actions and words of expats are perceived. Keep it coming brother!!! Don

[Tywais]

I believe the disparity between the negatives and the positives is simply it is much easier and more likely for some to complain about something as a catharsis then it is for those to post with their positive experiences. Those with positive experience, and I would venture a guess they would be in the majority, have no need to express themselves in public because they find it the norm for them. Not unlike the news, easier to get attention with negative news then positive ones and not because that is all there is.

[Samuian]

Well, the quote int the OP post is nothing else than a typical response,

I wouldn't have expected something more self critical, which does take some guts

and self esteem to look further then just in to the mirror after the make up has been applied!

"There is nothing wrong here, got to be something wrong with you!"

it's the same old song- repeated over and over and over - regards from

Chalerm and Mr.Thaksin and their likes!

regards from the Survey the 64% of this countries citizens think that there is "nothing wrong"

with corrupt procedures... "it's Thai, we are Thai people, understand?!"

well - never mind it is as is - not meant to offend - it's just as is....

[noahvail]

Intersting sentiments and incrediably well written for someone for whom English is a second lanquage.

I thought that initially too. On further reflection, there must be a fair number of Thais who grew up in multi-lingual households, therefore they could be considered native-English speakers of both Thai and English.

[barrybankruad]

Well said! I too am sick and tired of many (perhaps most) of the farangs I meet critising the Thai people, and their way of life. Why do they remain here? As far as I can see it's because its cheap, the weather is great and most of them have women much younger than they are the likes of which they could never in their wildest dfreams of having in their countries of origin. Sometimes I wish thay would all <deleted> of back to where they came from!!!

[Orac]

Though the sentiments expressed seem valid and I would have to agree that there are many very negative posters on here who believe that the rules/laws should be designed around the needs of expats rather than Thais, it is also interesting that this is very well written on an english language website which, on an admittedly brief check, is run by a farang and appears to be in competition with TV albeit with a more political bias. Also it was written on Oct 2007.

Despite this it should be recommended reading for posters on here to at least provoke a bit more thought before some posts are made.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Orac

[Geckos]

Funny that sounds just like in my country before I left 24 years ago !!! All the Foreigners coming to my country and bitching about this and that how my country wasn't respecting their religious believes or in their country they were aloud to this but can't do it here !!!! The first word they learnt in my country WHEN THEY ARRIVED was " DISCRIMINATION" because they new in my country that was AGAINST THE LAW AND YOU COULD GET ALOT OF MONEY FROM THAT WORD !!!!! Now just think if that word had as much power here as it does in my country !!!!!! WOW !!!!

[tominchaam]

The Thai person quoted by eek expressed his/her opinions in good English which I suppose should be well accepted by all readers as it makes it easy to understand.

I accept and respect the quoted opinions. There are various reasons many posters seem to be experts in complaining and I doubt this will change by time or with new members joining this forum. But at the same time I find plenty of posters showing good attitude to Thailand overall and it is easy to find a lot of good things written about Thailand and its people.

[Gerontion]

Well, the quote int the OP post is nothing else than a typical response,

I wouldn't have expected something more self critical, which does take some guts

and self esteem to look further then just in to the mirror after the make up has been applied!

Oh, if only people who made posts like this could appreciate the irony...

A good OP and one reason why I never really pay any attention to the General Topics section of this website (and if you're wondering, this thread was listed on the main index) - the special interest forums can be extremely informative but this section (like those of its competitors) seems to be almost exclusively populated by fools and fascists.

[submaniac]

I would throw out something that the American author William Faulkner said, that has always stuck with me. Faulkner, who wrote about the American South, was asked how he could have such a love for the region after the history of slavery, and segregation. His response is the you do not love because; you love despite. Meaning you do not love a person, or a place, because of any one particular attribute. You love the whole completely, despite the flaws. Thailand is not perfect, and I know this. But I love her. And I will continue to love her regardless of her flaws.

As I sit in the United States, I read how much everyone bitches and moans about Thailand. And all it does is make me wish I was there. I am not in Thailand right now because I can make more money elsewhere. But one day I will go, and I will not leave.

To all those who complain, and yet remain in the country, I would throw out two points you should consider. The first is, the Thais really don't care what you think. I see so many complaints that the Thais are backward, this country would be so much better if they'd only do such and such this way, and the Thais are really stupid because they are throwing away an opportunity to gain your valuable tourist money. The fact is the Thais are not stupid. They know exactly what they are doing. They just don't care.

You complaint that it's hard to stay in Thailand and they make you do your visa runs? It's because they don't want you to stay in the country, knucklehead. Thailand would love it if you came to visit, spent your money, and left. It's like your old college buddy that comes to stay at your place. For the first couple of days its cool. When he wants to start rearranging the furniture, it's time to go. The fact that he has got lots and lots of money really doesn't matter. Broke or not, you want to have your own space and you want to have things the way you want them and the fact that he will occasionally pay for dinner isn't really change that.

So many come to Thailand, and want to turn it into Falangland. Well, falangs already have falangland. It's called the USA, Britain, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, New Zealand, etc. The Thais are perfectly happy with the way they do things, and they will not change everything to make a small group of foreigners happy. If you don't like it, then you are perfectly able to return to the West and do things the Western way. But do not expect the Thai people to try and accommodate you. Don't complain about it either. Imagine a Thai coming to the States. The US doesn't want the Thais coming over. (If you complain about the visa runs, think about the Thai trying to get a U.S. visa.) And if the Thai person says 'geez the USA would be great if everybody just did things the Thai way', what do you think the opinion would be in the United States? This is THAIland, not FALANGland, and you will have to adjust to the Thai way, because the Thais ain't going to change their culture for you.

Sorry folks, but that's reality and that's how the rest of the world works too. If you want to immigrate to Germany, they will make you take a German language test. If you want to become a U.S. citizen, they're gonna test you on American history. If you want Thai citizenship, you best memorize the Thai national anthem. For anyone willing to jump through the hoops, you can go to any of these countries. But you must demonstrate a level of commitment. Obviously enough of you have jumped through the hoops that you are still in Thailand. Also keep in mind that if Thailand really wanted to, they could go 'North Korea' on you and make sure that nobody can stay.

The second thing I would point out to the complainers out there is that all the things you complain about are a direct consequence of the things that you like about the country. You want to complain about being asked for tea money by the BIB. Well in the U.S. it's $468 for running a red traffic light, on top of traffic school. How I wish I could just pay 200 baht in the U.S. and be on my way.

You want to complain that there are no standards for housing? That Thai electrician put your wiring together with duct tape? Well, have you ever tried to get a building permit from a city in the U.S.? You say you want Thailand to enforce the rule of law just like in your home country? Well then you better think that alot of your 'companions' aren't going to be around anymore. If you want 'enforcement of the law' better be expecting the 'vice squad' patrolling the streets and if your caught, your car gets impounded and sold at auction. (Really, they do that in San Bernardino California.)

If you want to use Thaivisa as your 'vent' to complain about Thailand, go ahead. It's really not going to change a thing. And besides, you love the place. Admit it.

[cpofc]

The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly.

It exists everywhere. My thai wife has lived in Australia for 24 years. I have seen what she has had to put up with. Perhaps it is the low level, non violent but very subtle racism that lies dormant under the surface that grates on her more than anything. Do you think that zenophobic red necks don't exist in my country. We may consider ourselves to be a multi cultural tolerant society but we do have some issues.

On the whole though, the majority are good, so she takes that bit of bad and lives with it and deals with it. She has had to make allowances and adjustments. Like we should have to do when living here.

Recently my mother In Law (whom I live a few doors from) informed me that my Thai owner wanted to increase my rent by a whopping 20%.

I said I thought that was a little too severe. i would be willing to go for 10%.

Khun Yai, said, Bullshit! You know why they are doing this? Because you're farang! That's all. They are trying you on. The going price for this area is X amount and you are not going to pay one baht more!

I said I was willing to be reasonable and go for the 10%.

Again she refused this and so as not to upset the status quo, being the only farang in the area, she told me she had already knocked them back on my behalf! The deal was done. No rent increase for the farang. My other neigbours were in total agreement.

you have to be happy with that.

[Ulysses G.]

Intersting sentiments and incrediably well written for someone for whom English is a second lanquage.

I thought that initially too. On further reflection, there must be a fair number of Thais who grew up in multi-lingual households, therefore they could be considered native-English speakers of both Thai and English.

I agreed with most of the OP, but I am 99.9% sure that it was written by a farang, rather than a Thai.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[MiG16]

As for Thai Visa itself I find it run by a bunch of Nazi like mods that if you disagree with them they will ban you. So watch your step. lol

and just to grant you the wish of MODs who are dictator-like, Im giving the poster a warning, and making it public knowledge, so that anyone who wants to follow in his step can be forewarned.

discussing moderation on a public thread is against forum rules.

if you have issues with specific or generic moderation action, you are more than welcome to contact the administrators of the site. you can do this by emailing:

support[at]thaivisa.com

replace [at] with @

I know every moderator give each poster a lot of levy before issuing a warning. I normally do too. but having said that, Im always happy to oblige and apply the rules strictly to those posters that seem to want moderators to be strict.

well, today Im your genie. wish granted

[Theyreallrubbish]

Intersting sentiments and incrediably well written for someone for whom English is a second lanquage.

I thought that initially too. On further reflection, there must be a fair number of Thais who grew up in multi-lingual households, therefore they could be considered native-English speakers of both Thai and English.

I agreed with most of the OP, but I am 99.9 sure that it was written by a farang, rather than a Thai.

I have many Thai friends who were sent to England or America at the age of 7 or even younger and only came back when they were 25 and had finished a Masters degree. For them English is their first language and they write Thai at little more than a school child's level.

So I can believe this was written by a Thai

[Lancelot]

To all those who complain, and yet remain in the country, I would throw out two points you should consider. The first is, the Thais really don't care what you think. I see so many complaints that the Thais are backward, this country would be so much better if they'd only do such and such this way, and the Thais are really stupid because they are throwing away an opportunity to gain your valuable tourist money. The fact is the Thais are not stupid. They know exactly what they are doing. They just don't care.

Submaniac, you seem like a reasonable person make some interesting points and I would agree that its Thailand's perogative to do as it pleases. At the end of the day no one is forcing us to stay.

As a Thai, what are your thoughts when you read stories such as the British couple being detained for shop lifting?

[Ulysses G.]

I agree that the OP could have been written by a Thai, but I would bet that it wasn't.

By the way colibra, calling the mods the N word is not the best way to gain their favor.

[Theyreallrubbish]

I would throw out something that the American author William Faulkner said, that has always stuck with me. Faulkner, who wrote about the American South, was asked how he could have such a love for the region after the history of slavery, and segregation. His response is the you do not love because; you love despite. Meaning you do not love a person, or a place, because of any one particular attribute. You love the whole completely, despite the flaws. Thailand is not perfect, and I know this. But I love her. And I will continue to love her regardless of her flaws.

As I sit in the United States, I read how much everyone bitches and moans about Thailand. And all it does is make me wish I was there. I am not in Thailand right now because I can make more money elsewhere. But one day I will go, and I will not leave.

To all those who complain, and yet remain in the country, I would throw out two points you should consider. The first is, the Thais really don't care what you think. I see so many complaints that the Thais are backward, this country would be so much better if they'd only do such and such this way, and the Thais are really stupid because they are throwing away an opportunity to gain your valuable tourist money. The fact is the Thais are not stupid. They know exactly what they are doing. They just don't care.

You complaint that it's hard to stay in Thailand and they make you do your visa runs? It's because they don't want you to stay in the country, knucklehead. Thailand would love it if you came to visit, spent your money, and left. It's like your old college buddy that comes to stay at your place. For the first couple of days its cool. When he wants to start rearranging the furniture, it's time to go. The fact that he has got lots and lots of money really doesn't matter. Broke or not, you want to have your own space and you want to have things the way you want them and the fact that he will occasionally pay for dinner isn't really change that.

So many come to Thailand, and want to turn it into Falangland. Well, falangs already have falangland. It's called the USA, Britain, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, New Zealand, etc. The Thais are perfectly happy with the way they do things, and they will not change everything to make a small group of foreigners happy. If you don't like it, then you are perfectly able to return to the West and do things the Western way. But do not expect the Thai people to try and accommodate you. Don't complain about it either. Imagine a Thai coming to the States. The US doesn't want the Thais coming over. (If you complain about the visa runs, think about the Thai trying to get a U.S. visa.) And if the Thai person says 'geez the USA would be great if everybody just did things the Thai way', what do you think the opinion would be in the United States? This is THAIland, not FALANGland, and you will have to adjust to the Thai way, because the Thais ain't going to change their culture for you.

Sorry folks, but that's reality and that's how the rest of the world works too. If you want to immigrate to Germany, they will make you take a German language test. If you want to become a U.S. citizen, they're gonna test you on American history. If you want Thai citizenship, you best memorize the Thai national anthem. For anyone willing to jump through the hoops, you can go to any of these countries. But you must demonstrate a level of commitment. Obviously enough of you have jumped through the hoops that you are still in Thailand. Also keep in mind that if Thailand really wanted to, they could go 'North Korea' on you and make sure that nobody can stay.

The second thing I would point out to the complainers out there is that all the things you complain about are a direct consequence of the things that you like about the country. You want to complain about being asked for tea money by the BIB. Well in the U.S. it's $468 for running a red traffic light, on top of traffic school. How I wish I could just pay 200 baht in the U.S. and be on my way.

You want to complain that there are no standards for housing? That Thai electrician put your wiring together with duct tape? Well, have you ever tried to get a building permit from a city in the U.S.? You say you want Thailand to enforce the rule of law just like in your home country? Well then you better think that alot of your 'companions' aren't going to be around anymore. If you want 'enforcement of the law' better be expecting the 'vice squad' patrolling the streets and if your caught, your car gets impounded and sold at auction. (Really, they do that in San Bernardino California.)

If you want to use Thaivisa as your 'vent' to complain about Thailand, go ahead. It's really not going to change a thing. And besides, you love the place. Admit it.

I understand your sentiment and agree with part of it, but frankly this total rolling over in favor of Thais is not doing you any favors.

It used to be that foreigners were avoided by the police in running their scams for the most part because it was known that we were much more likely to stick to our principles and kick up an enormous fuss, but with the rise in the number of apologists who want to bend over and do everything the Thai way, we are now treated exactly like the Thais and have to suffer the corruption that they do. Hardly a positive response.

Like the total idiots posting in the King Power thread that they should be glad they could pay to get out of the situation, completely avoiding the issue that it was a scam and if foreigners kicked up more of a fuss and didn't accommodate Thai corruption then we wouldn't be targeted in the first place!

There are many things about the west that ARE better (and many things worse of course) but this fawning desire to do everything the Thai way is supine and pathetic.

And to compare Thai visa conditions with those from developed countries with government welfare systems is simply amazing. Can you not see that there is a fundamental difference between a Brit coming to Thailand and leaving a country with cradle to grave welfare and health care and a Thai leaving a country with minimal welfare and going to the UK? Which direction of travel is more likely to lead to a drain on the accepting countries taxpayers? Its a simple fact that the more generous the welfare state the more restrictive visa regulations need to be.

[Thaddeus]

Sometimes I wish thay would all <deleted> of back to where they came from!!!

Anyone in particular Baz......... no it's Ok, I know.

[mellow1]

The OP has a valid argument. It would be better though if there were more Thai interaction on the forum, entering discussions or disputes. Giving us their point of view. If one reads , watches the news, or even just goes out, its apparent that they are not all shy. It would be interesting to know how they interpret the many situations. I discuss the various thing which happen with my wife, who quite often see's or understands the situations the same as I do. The only mystery here is why Thais don't discuss or debate these issues. Not every Farang is right, and a hateful or bitter attitude is not good for anyone. This doesn't mean that all these farangs are wrong either.