Thai Wife Scams My Blue Book

[katabeachbum]

The blue book as many have stated in this thread is just the tabian baan and means little in the scheme of things.

True

Should still get here deleted from Tabien baan or have a new tabien baan issued. As long as she is registered resident in the house, the police will if have problem assume she has the right to live there.

Previously i said its done in Amphur. Its not. Its in Tessabaan. And its still 20 baht

[Livinginexile]

What's the latest mate?

Is your home safe?

Did you check if the chanote is still in your company name?

[InterestedObserver]

Again, Blue book has nothing to do with ownership of the house. Neither does a building permit and the name which is on it. It is a permit to BUILD. If selling a house would it always belong to the builder?? Right !

The house belongs to the registered builder, the person whose name is on the building permit, unless and until there is a subsequent sales agreement registered at the land office. A sales agreement has to be registered at the land office, before there can be a new owner of the house. A house can be owned separate from the land (chanote), provided the alleged owner has documents proving it. There is no such thing as a title document for a house, you either built the house (building permit) or the previous owner sold it to you (sales agreement).

[thaiwanderer]

.........or the builder built it for you (construction contract)

Hence my previous post questioning whether the OP's company can easily establish ownership of the house to a prospective buyer (he's in a rush to sell).

If not will take at least more than 30 days and as he doesn't know what documents he signed he may have granted wife a 3 year lease.

[samILO]

Again, Blue book has nothing to do with ownership of the house. Neither does a building permit and the name which is on it. It is a permit to BUILD. If selling a house would it always belong to the builder?? Right !

The house belongs to the registered builder, the person whose name is on the building permit, unless and until there is a subsequent sales agreement registered at the land office. A sales agreement has to be registered at the land office, before there can be a new owner of the house. A house can be owned separate from the land (chanote), provided the alleged owner has documents proving it. There is no such thing as a title document for a house, you either built the house (building permit) or the previous owner sold it to you (sales agreement).

100% true, the Blue Book has nothing to do with the ownership of the house.

The Building Permit is the evidence of house ownership for the land department if requested to transfer ownership of house to a third party. If the building permit was applied on behalf of another person, such should have signed a Power of Attorney and showing such certified by Oar.Por.Tor or Tesabaan is evidence of different ownership. Trasnfer of building permit is possible as long the building permit is valid and not having issued the house register yet. And such can be in the name of the foreigner if the foreigner has an address where to send notice to (as of decision by the officer).

Ownership of house can be different form land ownership and either Building Permit ore by trasnfer of ownership by official registration of Purchase/Sales agreement for construction issued by the land department

So again I agree with above.

[YouYouYou]

I think all the previous posters are right Galowgala about the BLUE BOOK.

But as one poster recently indicated too: why don't you try going down to the 'Amphur', preferably with your lawyer, and try to get her name removed from the blue book as she no longer lives there. I don't quite know the in's and out's of this, but it's worth a try and distances her further from any monetary challenge she may be able to launch.

Won't take you long and the answer will be yes or no ..try it, and good luck.

[InterestedObserver]

.........or the builder built it for you (construction contract)

Hence my previous post questioning whether the OP's company can easily establish ownership of the house to a prospective buyer (he's in a rush to sell).

If not will take at least more than 30 days and as he doesn't know what documents he signed he may have granted wife a 3 year lease.

If you are having a house built for yourself, make sure that you get your name on the building permit. A construction contract between you and the builder is exactly that, it won't prove ownership in the future. Only the building permit or a sales agreement will do that. If the land is owned by a company, then you should secure a 30 year lease and then get the building permit in your name.

[Geekfreaklover]

You should have a yellow 'tabien ban' - house registration. Not a 'blue book'

I've had a yellow book for every house that I've rented. If your company bought the land then I guess that means the tabien ban has to be a Thai blue one?

I find it really hard to understand that your wife is trying to play you for the property. Most relationships between Thais and Farangs are built upon trust and love.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Geekfreaklover

[Heng]

[Vang2x]

I got married about 1 and a half years ago to a Thai lady, My house is owned by my company,

She noticed on my blue book for my house that the name in it was the German builders Thai wife's name was in the blue book, so she went to the Amphur office to change it for me, but unbeknown to me as i was signing the documents in Thai.

she was actually putting the house book in here name and not my company as i thought. now she has the house in her name she has made all efforts to split us up and tells me now that the house is hers and i cant have it back. I went to a Thai lawyer and he tells me that the chanute is still my company's name so i own the land but she owns the building now.

The lawyer tells me i can knock the house down as her house is on my company's land, that really is not going to help me as i need to sell it to try and retrieve some of the money she has creamed out of me, with all her stories, i don't want to bore you with all them stories and lies. but basically what can i do, if anything to get my house back, please can i have constructive and correct info, as i really don't need to be told what a " Stupid Farang " I am. Im distressed enough as it is.

just to validate your info and so my understanding on your post, do you mean you and your wife are splitting this time perhaps getting a divorce soon and then she told you that you can't have the house back as she owns it already?

[stgrhe]

Proof of ownership should not be confused with the house registration document (Ta Bian Baan), the blue book (Thor Ror 14) or the yellow book for foreigners (Thor Ror 13). The books, blue or yellow, is only a register of the house and its occupants at the district amphur.

The house registration book is under Thai law an official document identifying the house. It gives the full address of the house at the book's first page and the name of the owner in the house book, as well as all of the all house occupants on the preceding pages. However, for a foreigner a yellow book will be issued. The name of the owner is usually written on the first page.

If the OP and his wife have registered their marriage in Thailand both spouses own the house on equal basis as the house, not the land, as the house is regarded as Sin Somros under the Civil & Commercial Code, sections 1465 - 1493, irrespectively of who's name it is on the document; this provided the purchase of the property was made during marriage. Therefore, the OP's fear may be of academical interests only.

[InterestedObserver]

If the OP and his wife have registered their marriage in Thailand both spouses own the house on equal basis as the house, not the land, as the house is regarded as Sin Somros under the Civil & Commercial Code, sections 1465 - 1493, irrespectively of who's name it is on the document; this provided the purchase of the property was made during marriage. Therefore, the OP's fear may be of academical interests only.

The OP has stated that the house is owned by his company and that he has a prenuptial agreement. Provided the prenup was properly registered at the time of their marriage and based on the facts, as I understand them, the wife has little chance of claiming the house as Sin Somros during a divorce proceeding or of proving outright ownership.

[Svenn]

OP!

This is a serious situation involving lots of money, don't put your trust in internet forum posts... GET A LAWYER. Preferably, talk to 3 or 4 about your situation to make sure their advice is legitimate. All the BS on this topic about what the blue book "means" or what "Thai law says" is useless when you get in front of a judge... Thai law is about ENFORCEABILITY, not what's officially written in the code. It could be that the local judges pays full heed to the code in situations like your's, or he could ignore every law and just wait for bribes from the parties... so get solid advice first.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Svenn

[thaiwanderer]

.........or the builder built it for you (construction contract)

Hence my previous post questioning whether the OP's company can easily establish ownership of the house to a prospective buyer (he's in a rush to sell).

If not will take at least more than 30 days and as he doesn't know what documents he signed he may have granted wife a 3 year lease.

If you are having a house built for yourself, make sure that you get your name on the building permit. A construction contract between you and the builder is exactly that, it won't prove ownership in the future. Only the building permit or a sales agreement will do that. If the land is owned by a company, then you should secure a 30 year lease and then get the building permit in your name.

Yes, was merely adding an extra document that may be involved. Building Permit together with sale and purchase / construction contract is important but is not of itself registration of ownership of the house.

For the OP as the blue book was in the name of the builder imagine (but may well be wrong) the building permit was too. Given his reliance on his wife and inability to read Thai quite possible ownership of the house (regardless of the name on the building permit) has not been registered to his company (and he doesn't know what he signed anyway). The OP says his company owns the house but not at all clear its ownership of the house is registered (and he might of paid for the house but are all the documents even establishing 'non-registered' ownership in order?).

As stated earlier he wishes to sell and a prospective buyer may well be put off if he hasn't already got everything in order to show ownership of the land and house.

Given wife attempting to be difficult he should take legal advice and ensure everything solid as it can be.

[InterestedObserver]

The house in question is registered to somebody since a Thor Ror 14 (blue book) has been issued by the local Amphur. Therefore, non-registered ownership cannot be asserted. At this point I'd pay a good real estate lawyer to perform Due Diligence (title search) on the property, including the house.

[yabaaaa]

How much does a reasonable lwayer charge to do due diligence? Just curious as "my wife" will be "buying" land soon. Price of land 800000 baht.

We called the land dept or whatever its called who told us that the name on the copy of the Chanote was the owner etc.

Edited July 5, 2009 by yabaaaa

[thaiwanderer]

The house in question is registered to somebody since a Thor Ror 14 (blue book) has been issued by the local Amphur. Therefore, non-registered ownership cannot be asserted. At this point I'd pay a good real estate lawyer to perform Due Diligence (title search) on the property, including the house.

The 'registered' ownership I was referring to was of the house itself with the land office.

As I said earlier whilst the OP / his company may have paid for the house and land its not at all clear what if any documents he has and what is registered at the land office.

Whilst the OP was concerned about the wife's claims, the blue book and the advice he received they are really false leads and due dilligence (on house and land) as you say is essential. I suspect this will show the OP needs to take some action to tidy up the legalities ready for sale.

[stevehaigh]

If you are having a house built for yourself, make sure that you get your name on the building permit. A construction contract between you and the builder is exactly that, it won't prove ownership in the future. Only the building permit or a sales agreement will do that. If the land is owned by a company, then you should secure a 30 year lease and then get the building permit in your name.

land offices (at least in Ko Phangan so i assume its the rule everywhere) will not issue a building permit in the name of a foreigner. it must be a Thai person or Thai owned company.

[JimmyGreaves]

If you are having a house built for yourself, make sure that you get your name on the building permit. A construction contract between you and the builder is exactly that, it won't prove ownership in the future. Only the building permit or a sales agreement will do that. If the land is owned by a company, then you should secure a 30 year lease and then get the building permit in your name.

land offices (at least in Ko Phangan so i assume its the rule everywhere) will not issue a building permit in the name of a foreigner. it must be a Thai person or Thai owned company.

Seems to be the same here in Hua Hin Thai Person or Thai owned company can only get a Building Permit.

In the same boat as the OP and have the BP in the company name, however think I will go the superficies route to claim ownership of the property:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/superficies_thailand.html

What do you think?

Edited July 5, 2009 by jflundy

[InterestedObserver]

If you are having a house built for yourself, make sure that you get your name on the building permit. A construction contract between you and the builder is exactly that, it won't prove ownership in the future. Only the building permit or a sales agreement will do that. If the land is owned by a company, then you should secure a 30 year lease and then get the building permit in your name.

land offices (at least in Ko Phangan so i assume its the rule everywhere) will not issue a building permit in the name of a foreigner. it must be a Thai person or Thai owned company.

Seems to be the same here in Hua Hin Thai Person or Thai owned company can only get a Building Permit.

In the same boat as the OP and have the BP in the company name, however think I will go the superficies route to claim ownership of the property:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/superficies_thailand.html

What do you think?

Certainly you have to have real land rights in your name ( superficies, lease etc.) before you can get a building permit with your name on it. Whoever said that you can just throw up a building anywhere you wish, without the land owners permission.

[JimmyGreaves]

If you are having a house built for yourself, make sure that you get your name on the building permit. A construction contract between you and the builder is exactly that, it won't prove ownership in the future. Only the building permit or a sales agreement will do that. If the land is owned by a company, then you should secure a 30 year lease and then get the building permit in your name.

land offices (at least in Ko Phangan so i assume its the rule everywhere) will not issue a building permit in the name of a foreigner. it must be a Thai person or Thai owned company.

Seems to be the same here in Hua Hin Thai Person or Thai owned company can only get a Building Permit.

In the same boat as the OP and have the BP in the company name, however think I will go the superficies route to claim ownership of the property:

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/superficies_thailand.html

What do you think?

Certainly you have to have real land rights in your name ( superficies, lease etc.) before you can get a building permit with your name on it. Whoever said that you can just throw up a building anywhere you wish, without the land owners permission.

The Company who own the land gave me permission to build on the land, however only giving me written confirmation and not legal confirmation at the time the BP was applied for.

[Screws]

Your wife maybe did this with the best of intentions, so don’t judge her to soon about this.

Sure

http://www.gocomics.com/shoe/ (July 5th)

[bannerman]

From Experience first hand within the last 2 months -

my Thai Wife ( final divorce hearing is end of July !! ) also stole all my company Papers / documents / chanoot.

i was only a shareholder in the company holding my property .

this is what i did to get all the papers /Documents replaced AND sell the house afterwards !!

i used BSS business services in Pattaya on Soi 17 ,( a good thorough company ) ( who formed the company originally ) to replace all the documents / blue book .

the task was easy because they had copies of everything on file - cost just a few thousand baht and took about a week or two .

the hard part was replacing the chanoot -- ABC Lawyers on Dolphin Roundabout were dealing with my divorce case ( DONT USE THEM for yours ! ) they advised me to report the chanoot as stolen in the Police Station .. ( since found out a thai wife cant legally steal from her husband >? ) the reason to report as stolen was to prove a history of thefts committed by my wife against me , family and friends .

it turns out that if the chanoot is known to be stolen by the land registry ( we gave them the police report as reason to replace it ) , and the wife is known to have it , land registry cannot issue a new one because its where abouts is known and advised me to take civil action against my wife which could take years !!

bad legal advise given initially caused a LOT of problems ..

enter Magna Carta Law Firm =) i had a buyer ready to buy the property but no chanoot .

Magna Carta advised with the newly replaced company papers to change directors to the new owner . the new owner then files a police report that he is not in possession of the chanoot. this police report is taken to Land Registry and used to obtain a replacement chanoot -- legally and safely ... took about 7 weeks and 20k baht for Magna Carta s fees which was the best money i have spent so far in Thailand ... looking forward to going to court on 31st and showing the lease agreement for my newly RENTED property to the soon to be unhappy ex wife =)

you need to make sure the change in directors / shareholders is published - if there is any recourse by your wife that you have illegally removed her from the company , this published article acts under thai law as the chance for someone to object within a small time frame ... and protects you .

i may not have explained myself well but the main point is --saying the chanoot is lost or misplaced is better than saying the wife has stolen it .

depending on the share structure of your company that holds the property you probably have 49% with 2 or more thais holding 51%. if the share xfer documents have been signed you could probably xfer enough shares to your control to call a share holders meeting .. in this meeting you write ( minutes ) that the nominee shareholders have not fully paid up there shares and publish in the local to you thai newspaper that shareholders will be transferred in your company , citing non payment of shares . ( thus removing your wife as shareholder -- can she prove she paid up her shares ? )

good luck .. pm me if u need anymore info ..

keep your chin up.. i know how frustrating / painful it is when the greed comes into play !!!

[phil2]

Who has got the chanote of the place and on who`s name is it written out to??

That is what counts.

So you think you are scammed because of the blue book?? Something wrong in your relationship me thinks.

I still have the chanute and blue book in my safe at home and my wife has gone, she is now getting very nasty with all sorts of threats. it was a con from the 1st day she met me, she continuously gave me story's to extrude money from me, for her and her family.I told her from the start that i don't send money to her family they are not my responsability and she said not a problem. then we got married then it all changed, I gave in to some of the lies and gave money out. I then put a stop to it, as i could not financially afford to do it anymore.

Well, this is exactly what happened between me and my wife, but when the baby arrived three years ago, the able turned turned. I needed a maid, and the only maid she would have is her mother. I hope you can guess the rest.

I think the house is still yours. You have to match her threats with threats.

Good luck.

[DMasut]

Seems to me that if she owns the house but you own the land and there is no existing land lease arrangement with her to have the house on your company's land you could:

1. Have the company charge her a very high monthly land lease rate and when she can't make timely payments have the company put a lien on the house until the accruing lease payments are brought up to date or move to foreclose on her.

but you must do this reasonably soon because she may get squatter's rights on your land if you do nothing and she establishes this as her household for a long period of time.

2. Find a business developer interested in building a building on your company's land and get paid on that, have the house removed... but you may actually break even or a little profit.

Since it is not you, but the company's decision to do these things...you can't be the bad guy...right?

Edited July 6, 2009 by DMasut

[MrHammer]

From Experience first hand within the last 2 months -

my Thai Wife ( final divorce hearing is end of July !! ) also stole all my company Papers / documents / chanoot.

i was only a shareholder in the company holding my property .

this is what i did to get all the papers /Documents replaced AND sell the house afterwards !!

i used BSS business services in Pattaya on Soi 17 ,( a good thorough company ) ( who formed the company originally ) to replace all the documents / blue book .

the task was easy because they had copies of everything on file - cost just a few thousand baht and took about a week or two .

the hard part was replacing the chanoot -- ABC Lawyers on Dolphin Roundabout were dealing with my divorce case ( DONT USE THEM for yours ! ) they advised me to report the chanoot as stolen in the Police Station .. ( since found out a thai wife cant legally steal from her husband >? ) the reason to report as stolen was to prove a history of thefts committed by my wife against me , family and friends .

it turns out that if the chanoot is known to be stolen by the land registry ( we gave them the police report as reason to replace it ) , and the wife is known to have it , land registry cannot issue a new one because its where abouts is known and advised me to take civil action against my wife which could take years !!

bad legal advise given initially caused a LOT of problems ..

enter Magna Carta Law Firm =) i had a buyer ready to buy the property but no chanoot .

Magna Carta advised with the newly replaced company papers to change directors to the new owner . the new owner then files a police report that he is not in possession of the chanoot. this police report is taken to Land Registry and used to obtain a replacement chanoot -- legally and safely ... took about 7 weeks and 20k baht for Magna Carta s fees which was the best money i have spent so far in Thailand ... looking forward to going to court on 31st and showing the lease agreement for my newly RENTED property to the soon to be unhappy ex wife =)

you need to make sure the change in directors / shareholders is published - if there is any recourse by your wife that you have illegally removed her from the company , this published article acts under thai law as the chance for someone to object within a small time frame ... and protects you .

i may not have explained myself well but the main point is --saying the chanoot is lost or misplaced is better than saying the wife has stolen it .

depending on the share structure of your company that holds the property you probably have 49% with 2 or more thais holding 51%. if the share xfer documents have been signed you could probably xfer enough shares to your control to call a share holders meeting .. in this meeting you write ( minutes ) that the nominee shareholders have not fully paid up there shares and publish in the local to you thai newspaper that shareholders will be transferred in your company , citing non payment of shares . ( thus removing your wife as shareholder -- can she prove she paid up her shares ? )

good luck .. pm me if u need anymore info ..

keep your chin up.. i know how frustrating / painful it is when the greed comes into play !!!

Good for you, if more guys did what you did, maybe the scams would decrease.

But it doesnt seem like most guys caught in these bad marriages have neither brains nor balls to go trough with it.

[Igor]

Your best recourse is to find another lawyer. When you do find one, ask him if:

a) since she owns the house (if she indeed, does) can you charge her rent for having it on your property?

can you sell your property and let someone else worry about her house on it?

c) can you demand she remove the house from your property?

If any of those options exist, be prepared to offer her a low, but fair, price for the house.

[hhgz]

" it was a con from the 1st day she met me, she continuously gave me story's to extrude money from me, for her and her family."

"Extruded" money from you. I would pay to see that.

[thaihome]

I love this thread. It’s like two conversations going on at the same time. One is people saying you weren’t conned, she just put her name on the Blue book (Tambien Baan), has nothing do with ownership of land or house.

At the same time there is running conversation from people saying, sorry to hear you got your house stolen from you, my wife did the same thing, others saying talk to a lawyer, etc.

Actually kinda fun.

TH

[InterestedObserver]

I love this thread. It's like two conversations going on at the same time. One is people saying you weren't conned, she just put her name on the Blue book (Tambien Baan), has nothing do with ownership of land or house.

At the same time there is running conversation from people saying, sorry to hear you got your house stolen from you, my wife did the same thing, others saying talk to a lawyer, etc.

Actually kinda fun.

TH

The wife obviously thinks that she conned the OP and stole the house, both at the same time.