Caught Teaching On Retirement Visa

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Read sometime back that a farang was painting his house and was turned in for working without a permit. That's all I remember about it. Saw no followup. Can you shed some light? I'd hate to be left with shopping only.

I think that's more of a Thai urban legend than anything. I've heard of it but never have I seen it substantiated.

As I understand it the definition of 'work' in LOS, is 'expending energy'. It is left deliberately vague for 2 reasons:

1. The law drafters are incompetent (TiT).

2. Vague means it can mean whatever you want it to and use that as a lever either to bash foreigners with or to extort their money.

Let's be honest, 'expending energy' can be painting a house, drinking a beer, taking a piss or having a wank. It means whatever they want it to mean.

If you read a book with half of this stuff in it, you wouldn't believe it.

Kev

[Soutpeel]

Not sure what country your from but in the U.S.A. a foriener will need a green card with a right to work endorsement, not always an easy thing to get. What country do you come from where any foriegner can just walk in and go to work.

Rubbish....you can get a work visa (permit) for the US without a green card, I know I had one for over 2 years in the US....A green card is basically permanent residency, and with PR (green card) in the US you can work...so would suggest you get your facts right...

As to what country you can walk into and go to work..????....Cambodia, and strangley enough if your salary is below a cetain minimum..Vietnam..

[astral]

I am glad to hear that the school sorted the matter and the teachers were only deported.

I should imagine that the school paid a hefty fine, unless they are well connected.

The question about work permits comes up time and time again.

There are always those who say, "don't worry".

This story shows that you do need to worry.

[futureexpat10]

Usually, in most provinces, YOU DO NOT NEED A DEGREE.

I realize I'm reading a thread that's over a year old and laws, apparently, change frequently in Thailand, so your statement could easily have been true at the time but now simply outdated.

I read that a bachelor's degree is a national requirement for a work permit, not a regional one. If I'm mistaken can you provide a link or list of which provinces I (without a bachelor's degree) could obtain a WP and work legally, either in teaching English or technical writing/editing?

Thanks!

[Mario2008]

You will find more updated info here:

But the comment by Peace Blondie still stands, it is based on reports from members. Some get a WP without a degree, some don't. The only thing you can do is check with your local labor office, and then it might also depend on your employer. Some have more cloud as others.

[futureexpat10]

You will find more updated info here: http://www.thaivisa....qualifications/

But the comment by Peace Blondie still stands, it is based on reports from members. Some get a WP without a degree, some don't. The only thing you can do is check with your local labor office, and then it might also depend on your employer. Some have more cloud as others.

Thanks Mario, I'll check it out. Sounds like the laws in Thailand are VERY convoluted to say the least.

[bjhabal]

Let's try to keep things civil. Negotiating through Thai bureaucracy is far from easy. Also, how things are implemented in one region may be vastly different from another region. The other point is that most farangs teaching English are not taking jobs from Thais. It's a niche that is filled by farang teachers.

Most teachers, at least when they begin teaching, are technically illegal. They start work and the WP comes later, this is technically illegal. I don't exactly think working on a retirement visa and smuggling heroin are quite in the same category.

So...there but for the grace of God...

The one thing I could not understand here is why it is a niche that is filled with farang teachers? Teaching English or any other languages is not teaching pronunciation only, it means teaching grammars, words,verbs and phrases. When it comes to pronunciation, can you tell me which accent is the right one? The English, American or Australian and what about the Scottish or Irish? When you pronounce the words correctly, and everybody understand you then this what's really matters. These folks are learning English for their business, communications and pleasure, they are not planning to immigrate to your native country.

Thai people who studied English literature either in Thailand or abroad are much more qualified to teach English than most of the farang teaching English in Thailand and in this case the answer is yes faranf are taking some of Thai people jobs.

The case here that a person who is in a retirement visa and without a teaching license has broken 3 laws:

1. Retired means someone who is not working anymore.

2. Retirement visa means someone who has enough income and he is here to spend his retiring time.

3. without a license means someone who is not qualified to do a job that he is intended to do.

This honorably profession suddenly became a source of income to some people who are not qualified to do any other jobs and it is just because they born as a native of an English speaking country.

Let's face it..

I am sorry if i have offended some people but the truth has to come out, whether we liked it or not; and believe me not all Thai people can teach Thai language in USA or England even if they have been allowed to.

[TerryLH]

"The case here that a person who is in a retirement visa and without a teaching license has broken 3 laws:"

"1. Retired means someone who is not working anymore."

It's quite common for folks to continue working in another job after 'retirement'.

"2. Retirement visa means someone who has enough income and he is here to spend his retiring time."

That's true for many, but there are many others with income/savings that are marginal that want to work to keep busy, to have a better quality of life, or just feel like they're contributing to the community they've chosen to live in.

"3. without a license means someone who is not qualified to do a job that he is intended to do."

No, it simply means that they don't have a licence, for any number of reasons, including not being qualified.

[Utterlyuseful]

you got a deal..imagine if they cuaght you smoking as well...another 2000 baht on top of that

Does anyone have personal experience of this? I'll update their status but have been asked to give them urgent advice

Officers raided my place years ago and found my signature on a receipt pad. This was construed as work and after negotiating with a dodgy lawyer/travel agent (as go-between) I paid a hefty 40K fine and went home 2 hours later. The max one can be fined at the time was 10K, so I found out after. The immigration guy typed up a brief report which apparently admitted my guilt and was to be sent to Bangkok. This was in corruptsville Koh Samui by the way where fines are very quickly negotiated as 'get out of jail card'.

Anyway that was my experience. I wasn't a teacher but I imagine they will treat any occupation the same.

best of luck to the group of teachers, hopefully they can pay a fine alot less than I did.

Regards Bojo

[mizzi39]

Let's try to keep things civil. Negotiating through Thai bureaucracy is far from easy. Also, how things are implemented in one region may be vastly different from another region. The other point is that most farangs teaching English are not taking jobs from Thais. It's a niche that is filled by farang teachers.

Most teachers, at least when they begin teaching, are technically illegal. They start work and the WP comes later, this is technically illegal. I don't exactly think working on a retirement visa and smuggling heroin are quite in the same category.

So...there but for the grace of God...

The one thing I could not understand here is why it is a niche that is filled with farang teachers? Teaching English or any other languages is not teaching pronunciation only, it means teaching grammars, words,verbs and phrases. When it comes to pronunciation, can you tell me which accent is the right one? The English, American or Australian and what about the Scottish or Irish? When you pronounce the words correctly, and everybody understand you then this what's really matters. These folks are learning English for their business, communications and pleasure, they are not planning to immigrate to your native country.

Thai people who studied English literature either in Thailand or abroad are much more qualified to teach English than most of the farang teaching English in Thailand and in this case the answer is yes faranf are taking some of Thai people jobs.

The case here that a person who is in a retirement visa and without a teaching license has broken 3 laws:

1. Retired means someone who is not working anymore.

2. Retirement visa means someone who has enough income and he is here to spend his retiring time.

3. without a license means someone who is not qualified to do a job that he is intended to do.

This honorably profession suddenly became a source of income to some people who are not qualified to do any other jobs and it is just because they born as a native of an English speaking country.

Let's face it..

I am sorry if i have offended some people but the truth has to come out, whether we liked it or not; and believe me not all Thai people can teach Thai language in USA or England even if they have been allowed to.

I agree with you that Thais are learning English for business, communication, and maybe a small minority are learning for pleasure. Most learn to give them a competitive edge for their immediate future. Unlike in the west where a person can go back to school and change careers even at a midpoint in their life, this option is a non-option here in Thailand. In the west a persons high school grades have very little impact over his/her future. You can be a total screw up and still go on to community college and then University. Not so in the LOS.

By the time students reach M6 their future is pretty much mapped out for them, unless of course mom and dad are well off. When a student applies at Chula, Thammasat , Mahidol, or any of the top rated Universities their GPA has to be in the upper percentile and even then the governing body of said school will TELL the student what they can major in depending on the students GPA. Even if a student scores high in English, art, and social studies- if their scores are low in physical science and maths, coming out of M6 then said student can forget about gaining acceptance into a medical program. So with very high competition and very low opportunity, having English communicative skills is a must.

A good majority of Thai teachers who have studied English and have earned degrees in English have studied it here in Thailand and are ill prepared to teach English to Thai students- not because they don't understand how the English language works, but because the majority cannot convey English. Their Uni professors taught them mostly through translation and that is how they attempt to teach the subject to their students.

English does not translate into Thai anymore than Thai translates into English, so the Thai teacher who attempts to teach English through translation (and most do) find it impossible to teach a student anything.

Thais who have studied (for years) abroad have been immersed in the language and usually go on to cooperate careers upon returning to Thailand, since that is where the money is for a Thai that can speak an L2 (in this case English) with a level of fluency..

Believe me, if Thai English teachers could teach English at the level that the MOE expects, there would not be one farang at any Thai school-public or private. The simple reason is that they DON'T WANT YOU, but the reality is is that schools have no choice at this time of writing. The native speaking foreigner is about the only option they have. Bottom line:Thailand is way below par when it comes to their English skills compared to their neighbors.

Edited August 30, 2010 by mizzi39

[TerryLH]

"In the west a persons high school grades have very little impact over his/her future. You can be a total screw up and still go on to community college and then University. Not so in the LOS."

Actually, it is so. There are several options for students with lower GPA's.

University entrance is not based solely on GPA, but GAT PAT scores as well as some other stuff, based on the specific uni and faculty. I think GPA is a maximum of 30% of the score that determines where they go and what faculties are open to them.

"When a student applies at Chula, Thammasat , Mahidol, or any of the top rated Universities their GPA has to be in the upper percentile and even then the governing body of said school will TELL the student what they can major in depending on the students GPA."

See above answer.

Since the best uni's and faculties draw the best students, it's common sense that those with lower scores are at a disadvantage. There is only a limited number of places in each program. Is it different with the best uni's in the west?

"Even if a student scores high in English, art, and social studies- if their scores are low in physical science and maths, coming out of M6 then said student can forget about gaining acceptance into a medical program."

Are you saying you find fault with that?

"So with very high competition and very low opportunity, having English communicative skills is a must."

I wouldn't say it's a must, unless they want to study in English. Even than the qualifying score for English is a small percentage of the whole, and the test is mostly paper based.

Most faculties/departments offer programs that don't make English a priority.

"A good majority of Thai teachers who have studied English and have earned degrees in English have studied it here in Thailand and are ill prepared to teach English to Thai students..." "Their Uni professors taught them mostly through translation and that is how they attempt to teach the subject to their students."

Where is that info coming from?

I guess my experience here has been different than yours.

I've found that some foreign teachers have a higher opinion of their importance here than is deserved.

Best of luck to those teachers who get caught out, some probably through not much fault of their own.

[Ulysses G.]

One advice that I have been given by a Colonel at crime suppression is: Never ever sign anything. As long as there is no signed paperwork it can be made to disappear. Sign anything and helping you became a lot more difficult and expensive.

Waerth

That sounds like worthwhile advice, but I can't imagine that they would allow you to refuse to sign anything after you have been arrested. How do you get out of it, if you want to be released?

[mizzi39]

"In the west a persons high school grades have very little impact over his/her future. You can be a total screw up and still go on to community college and then University. Not so in the LOS."

Actually, it is so. There are several options for students with lower GPA's.

University entrance is not based solely on GPA, but GAT PAT scores as well as some other stuff, based on the specific uni and faculty. I think GPA is a maximum of 30% of the score that determines where they go and what faculties are open to them.

"When a student applies at Chula, Thammasat , Mahidol, or any of the top rated Universities their GPA has to be in the upper percentile and even then the governing body of said school will TELL the student what they can major in depending on the students GPA."

See above answer.

Since the best uni's and faculties draw the best students, it's common sense that those with lower scores are at a disadvantage. There is only a limited number of places in each program. Is it different with the best uni's in the west?

We have more choices in the west

"Even if a student scores high in English, art, and social studies- if their scores are low in physical science and maths, coming out of M6 then said student can forget about gaining acceptance into a medical program."

Are you saying you find fault with that?

"So with very high competition and very low opportunity, having English communicative skills is a must."

I wouldn't say it's a must, unless they want to study in English. Even than the qualifying score for English is a small percentage of the whole, and the test is mostly paper based.

Most faculties/departments offer programs that don't make English a priority.

"A good majority of Thai teachers who have studied English and have earned degrees in English have studied it here in Thailand and are ill prepared to teach English to Thai students..." "Their Uni professors taught them mostly through translation and that is how they attempt to teach the subject to their students."

Where is that info coming from?

I guess my experience here has been different than yours.

I've found that some foreign teachers have a higher opinion of their importance here than is deserved.

Best of luck to those teachers who get caught out, some probably through not much fault of their own.

[mizzi39]

Sorry, i must have struck a nerve TerryLH

quote:

I guess my experience here has been different than yours.

Yes it has. I choose not to make excuses for a flawed system. I guess we can agree to disagree.

I've found that some foreign teachers have a higher opinion of their importance here than is deserved.

I have found this too. Thai teachers included!!! May we also include the farangs who sit on their asses all day boasting about their irrelevant "achievements" to your anaylsis?

Best of luck to those teachers who get caught out, some probably through not much fault of their own.

Yes best of luck to them. As you can see from my earlier posts, I do advocate for teachers getting and keeping themselves legal. Cheers.

Edited August 31, 2010 by mizzi39

[TerryLH]

"I have found this too. Thai teachers included!!! May we also include the farangs who sit on their asses all day boasting about their irrelevant "achievements" to your anaylsis?"

Yes.

"Sorry, i must have struck a nerve..."

A little bit.

I just went through the uni entrance process, so think I have a halfway decent understanding of the process. Or not.

I tend to get a bit snippy when I don't feel good. It's one of those days.

Overall, I think we agree on most of that.