Work Permit Problem

[KevinBloodyWilson]

A couple of years ago I bought a 2mTHB company which came with a work permit. As luck would have it, I did not have to relinquish my retirement visa since in 2007 there was a short window during which the government was prepared to issue a work permit to someone with a retirement visa. I was told by Sunbelt that this happens from time to time, and the timing was lucky. I was further told (also by Sunbelt) that the WP. Once issued would not be refused extension or renewal on the basis of the retirement visa I had when it was first issued.

The WP was extended and then renewed since 2007, while I brought the company into modest profit, which was achieved last month.

My visa was renewed for 12 months last week but today I have been told that the government will not provide me any further extension or renewal of the WP because I have a retirement visa, reversing by 180 degrees the decision they made 2 years ago and continued last year. As a matter of coincidence, I had an argument last week with Sunbelt about their expectation that I should pay in advance for services that have been patchy in the past. Their email to me notifying me of the refusal to extend the WP had a certain edge to it. I can't help but wonder if the two things are linked in some way.

This seems very fickle and contrary behaviour. Anyone out there have any similar experiences or know what the options are? I don't want to convert to a B class visa and go on visa runs every 3 months... Anyone got a recent renewal of a WP with a retirement visa, is it just foreigner bashing or is it just down to the officer?

Kev

Edited August 3, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[Mario2008]

Don't you qualify for an extension based on the company?

[LivinLOS]

This seems very fickle and contrary behaviour.

Really ?? In Thailand ??

So you have a non OA visa.. Or an O extended on the basis of retirement ??

I personally understood that retirement made work impossible and it was either or.. Logically if retired your not working and if working your not retired. So assume you should be on a non B and extend on that basis.

Yes the Thai system put a lot of barrier in the way of extending a visa for work, but its the penalty of working here and why I refuse to start a biz.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

This seems very fickle and contrary behaviour.

Really ?? In Thailand ??

So you have a non OA visa.. Or an O extended on the basis of retirement ??

I personally understood that retirement made work impossible and it was either or.. Logically if retired your not working and if working your not retired. So assume you should be on a non B and extend on that basis.

Yes the Thai system put a lot of barrier in the way of extending a visa for work, but its the penalty of working here and why I refuse to start a biz.

I have a retirement visa, and have had since 2004. I wanted to work though because I got bored as hel_l, so I bought a shelf company and was given a WP even though on retirement visa (yes, I know it sounds odd, it sounded odd to me too, but they were the rules).

I could get a B visa but I am seriously tempted to give it away and go and live on a hill somewhere. or Cambodia, or Malaysia and give them the tax money instead of Thailand which seems to have something of a name for doing this kind f nonsensical thing, even before their economy numbers went down the toilet.

It is all a bit surreal really. better perhaps to jack it in.

Kev

[beano2274]

Kev

why with a non Imm B visa would you have to do runs every 90 days, why not get a single entry if your company is here in Thailand, then report to Suan Phlu or your nearest Immigration office, or even send someone to do it for you.

[Mario2008]

The question is do you qualify for an exension of stay based on working. Your income requirements would be 50,000 a month, nd the company would also need to qualify to certain criteria:

(1) The alien must have a temporary visa

(2) The alien must have an income consistent with that set out in the Income Table attached hereto; (exhibit a)

(3) The business concerned must have a registered capital of not less than Baht 2 million, fully paid-up;

(4) The business concerned must have duly submitted its financial statement as at the end of the two fiscal years and certified by an auditor or tax auditor, showing a sound financial condition and an on-going active business as attached order (exhibit

(5) The business needs to employ the aliens

(6) The business concerned must have a ratio of 1 alien to 4 Thai permanent employees.

(7) The following businesses are exempted from the requirements of clauses (3), (4) and (5), and the ratio of aliens to Thai employees under clause (6) shall be reduced to 1:1.

(a) International trade enterprise (Representative Office)

( Regional Office

© Multinational company (Branch Office)

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Thanks to Beano, Mario and the others. A big help getting your opinions.

I a told that if I a a significant shareholder but do not manage the business day-to-day, then I am entitled to do research and 'just looking after some stuff for the company" without a work permit. I was surprised to hear that, anyone know about this?

What am I entitled to do without getting into strife?

Kev

[Mario2008]

If you are purely the owner, then you don't need a work permit. But considered working is as much as signing documents etc. If you leave that to a manager, and just discuss the operations with him once in a while it shouldn't be a problem.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

If you are purely the owner, then you don't need a work permit. But considered working is as much as signing documents etc. If you leave that to a manager, and just discuss the operations with him once in a while it shouldn't be a problem.

Excellent, thus far, the advice I got seems to be corroborated by you Mario. And research/consulting (perhaps in order to advise the company or to establish product quality control or strategic direction)?

Kev

[Mario2008]

Not an expert in this, but research and consulting seems like working. The definition of working in the Thai alien labour law is very broad.

It would also depend on how much research and consulting you do and to what extend. An owner consulting with his manger would not be a problem. Research in developing a product yourself could be considered crossing the line. But this are the grey areas of the law, maybe better adressed by a lawyer.

Business people coming to Thailand to negotiate a deal also don't have a WP.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Not an expert in this, but research and consulting seems like working. The definition of working in the Thai alien labour law is very broad.

It would also depend on how much research and consulting you do and to what extend. An owner consulting with his manger would not be a problem. Research in developing a product yourself could be considered crossing the line. But this are the grey areas of the law, maybe better adressed by a lawyer.

Business people coming to Thailand to negotiate a deal also don't have a WP.

Many thanks again. I appreciate the help.

KJev

[KevinBloodyWilson]

Not an expert in this, but research and consulting seems like working. The definition of working in the Thai alien labour law is very broad.

It would also depend on how much research and consulting you do and to what extend. An owner consulting with his manger would not be a problem. Research in developing a product yourself could be considered crossing the line. But this are the grey areas of the law, maybe better adressed by a lawyer.

Business people coming to Thailand to negotiate a deal also don't have a WP.

Many thanks again. I appreciate the help.

KJev

Well, there we go. Confirmation yesterday that the WP has been summarily withdrawn.

Sooo... this is what happened.

2 years ago I enquired about buying a shelf company.

Labour dept informed that I could get a WP with a retirement visa, but not right away, they had certain times when they would issue. I would need to wait for the next one.

I took advice from Sunbelt that once issued, a WP would not be withdrawn provided I adhered to all rules and regulations. Not their fault, best advice.

I bought the company and mothballed it, waiting for such a window. Estimated total cost: 40,000THB

I applied for a WP when the next such 'window' came along. It was granted no problems. Estimated cost: 8,000THB

I have had the WP renewed/extended twice. Estimated cost: 14,000THB

This week the government announces it will not be renewed or extended, that I can no longer work, and that if I do I will be prosecuted and deported. No change in the law, no prior notice of a change in practice, no warning of any kind, and 3 weeks to wind it all up and pass the running of the company to a manager who (since I have a very particular skill set) cannot do what I do, nor can anyone else in Thailand and probably not in SE Asia.

Total cost of trying to do the right thing in Thailand 60,000THB (not a lot I know but...)

One thing I don't understand is why these people expect to be taken seriously when they do this kind of shit. I know I am in a very small group of people (retirees with a WP), but even so... they redefine the words 'capricious' and 'incompetent' for me. I can fully understand what appears to be the current exodus of foreigners from Thailand, I am pretty tempted myself right now. Cambodia and Malaysia seem like really good prospects in comparison with this rabble. I wonder how much money they have lost in the past year due to farangs just walking away.

Kev

Edited August 5, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[lopburi3]

But the fact is you are on a retirement extension of stay and general policy has been that does not allow for work. That some office bent the rule in your favor does not preclude a shift, as has happened. If you want to work you can do so with a visa and/or extension for that purpose. Although I understand that may not be an option for you; it puts you on the same playing field as most foreigners running a business here.

Why should 30 year old Joe have to abide by specific work/income rules to stay here and you not have to meet the same rules I believe is probably the rational.

[KevinBloodyWilson]

But the fact is you are on a retirement extension of stay and general policy has been that does not allow for work. That some office bent the rule in your favor does not preclude a shift, as has happened. If you want to work you can do so with a visa and/or extension for that purpose. Although I understand that may not be an option for you; it puts you on the same playing field as most foreigners running a business here.

Why should 30 year old Joe have to abide by specific work/income rules to stay here and you not have to meet the same rules I believe is probably the rational.

I sort of take your point, but the simple fact is that the government issued me with a WP. Nobody forced them, they do it from time to time. Nobody did me a favour, nobody bent the rules, nobody offered or took money. The rules were applied in the same way that they had been applied numerous times before. Then they took it away capriciously. No change in the law, no rationale, nothing. Caprice.

Unfortunately I have contractual obligations which I cannot now fulfill. And 30-year-old Joe doesn't figure in any way that I can see.

But thanks anyway.

Kev.

Edited August 5, 2009 by KevinBloodyWilson

[CWMcMurray]

I do agree with you that 3 weeks is not suffient notification that the rules that were previously advised will no longer be applicable.

That being said, does your company qualify to support you for a non-B visa? If so, wht not apply for non-B (or extension for work) rather than retirement and continue on?

[KevinBloodyWilson]

I do agree with you that 3 weeks is not suffient notification that the rules that were previously advised will no longer be applicable.

That being said, does your company qualify to support you for a non-B visa? If so, wht not apply for non-B (or extension for work) rather than retirement and continue on?

Hi CW. Yes it does and yes I could apply for a nom-Imm B visa. I feel some reluctance to do that to be honest and I am not sure I could tell you why. Nevertheless, I suppose it is a sensible option providing they aren't too bothered about profitability (I am a psychotherapist and it will never make me rich - I don't do it for the money anyway, but to keep my brain alive).

Kev

[hereforgood]

I had My WP renewed just a few months ago and I am here on a retirement extension. I was told by our company lawyer that no problem getting a already issued WP renewed on the retirement extension. So she took my PP and WP and 1 day later it was returned to me for another year

[Arkady]

The problem to me seems to be not that the Labour Ministry has refused to extend a WP issued on a retirement visa but that it ever issued one in the first place. There is or was obviously some kind of loophole but users should understand it is a loophole and have contingency plans for it to be closed as most of them are eventually. It is inconvenient but you have had a good run and now you face the same conditions as most other foreigners who run businesses here. They haven't said they will never issue another WP from what I can gather, just that you need to come back with a standard non-imm B visa or stop working and accept the standard conditions of a retirement visa.