Thai Birth Certificate Question

[KenWingJitsu]

I am having a difficult time, and hope someone here has some tips and suggestions to help or at least point me in the right direction.

Summary:

I was born in Bangkok, Thailand in 1970 (parents worked for the UN). I know this entitles me to Thai citizenship (if born there before 1971).

I'm in the US, and am trying to get the green card processed. However, they require an official thai birth certificate.

All I have are;

A birth certificate from the hospital I was born (Bangkok Nursing Home)

A thai document- which I just had translated which is basically a housing document or moving documment with my parents and my name on it.

The document shows we moved from Bangrak district (where I believe the hospital is/was) to Phayathai district (where I believe we lived till we left).

No official birth certificate.

Being in California, I went to the Thai consulate to see if I could get help in getting one processed, and was surprised to see how much they were unwilling to help - even going so far as to argue with me that about my not being a Thai citizen - I had to school them on their own laws - (they eventually admitted I was right after talking to the supervisor).

Anyway, long story short, i was told they couldn't help me get a birth certificate unless I travel to Thailand to get one, or send someone with power of attorney, or a family member who lives there.

I called the Royal Thai embassy in Washington and was basically told the same thing (after also trying to deny my right to Thai citizenship - (what is wrong with them???)

So. Question - has anyone succeeded in getting an official birth certificate form Thailand without having to go there in person? If so, how?

Otherwise what did you do? Anyone ever had someone do it for them?

[p_brownstone]

Are both your Parents Thai?

Or is one Thai and the other had Permanent Residence status here in Thailand when you were born?

Patrick

[Heng]

I think the OP doesn't have Thai parents, as the overseas consulates are usually MORE helpful than the amphur offices in Thailand in such cases. The issue here seems to be one of those 'never done before' (despite your have a right to do so) procedures, so no one seems to want to do it. I don't know where they'd expect you to go over here. Perhaps you can query BNH if they have intact records from 1970.

For my birth cert., Thai parents,... just took my local (US) hospital birth cert. to the Thai consulate in L.A. I didn't even have to go. Issued within a few days or on the spot, I don't recall, but I remember seeing it not long after that trip. With that, you can get into any house registry in Thailand and then get your Thai ID.

[p_brownstone]

I don't think that simply being born in Thailand - in the early '70's - automatically conferred Thai Citizenship (unless there are special regulations covering parents working for International Agencies such as the UN - which again I doubt).

Certainly in my case - daughter born in Bangkok in 1983 to a Thai mother and myself, British but with Permanent Residence in Thailand at the time of the birth; it was only that combination of circumstances which allowed my daughter to claim Thai Citizenship. Indeed the Hospital processed the documentation without reference to us as parents and assumed that I, as a Farang, was neither Thai nor a Permanent Resident in Thailand and the Birth Certificate they obtained had a notation "No right to Thai Citizenship".

At that time, even though one Parent was a Thai Citizen, if the other was neither Thai nor had Permanent Residence status in Thailand the child would not be entitled to Thai Citizenship.

We had to make a couple of trips to the local Amphur to get the notation removed from the Birth Certificate.

Hence my question as to the status / Citizenship of his Parents at the time of his birth.

Patrick

[lopburi3]

I believe he is right and that Thailand had the same right to nationality by birth as the US has at that time. But I also suspect the birth may not have been registered with the District Office and in that case it may be a non-starter. If parents living he should be checking with them as to if/where birth may have been registered. Believe any search will have to be done here in Bangkok.

[TerryLH]

"All I have are;

A birth certificate from the hospital I was born (Bangkok Nursing Home)"

That should be helpful.

Does anyone know if that could be taken to the MFA for processing?

----------------------------------------------

"I'm in the US, and am trying to get the green card processed. However, they require an official thai birth certificate."

US greencard?

Why was the birth certificate you have deemed unofficial?

What birth certificate did you use to get your passport?

[KenWingJitsu]

Neither one of my parents is Thai.

At the time, anyone born in Thailand (pre-1971) is granted citizenship, regardless whether the parents are Thai or not.

I found it funny that I had to argue this point to consulate workers before they verified it themselves and told me that yes, i am basically a citizen without papers but I'd have to go to Thailand to get the birth certificate and passport.

I'm more concerned with getting the birth certificate first though, as that is my main concern. Just trying to figure out how to begin without having to travel to Thailand

The Los Angeles consulate was simply less than helpful.

Edited August 14, 2009 by KenWingJitsu

[majorpacman]

A lot of the consulate workers are dumb@ss. Don;t even know their own basic laws. they are just there to be cool or got a job at embassy by corrupt connection. The city hall worker too, they are dumb@ss, but that another story....

If u really want it, you have to go to Thailand, unless u know some people in thailand

[p_brownstone]

A lot of the consulate workers are dumb@ss. Don;t even know their own basic laws. they are just there to be cool or got a job at embassy by corrupt connection. The city hall worker too, they are dumb@ss, but that another story....

If u really want it, you have to go to Thailand, unless u know some people in thailand

A most helpful contribution, I, and I am sure the OP, thank you!

Patrick

[samran]

Neither one of my parents is Thai.

At the time, anyone born in Thailand (pre-1971) is granted citizenship, regardless whether the parents are Thai or not.

I found it funny that I had to argue this point to consulate workers before they verified it themselves and told me that yes, i am basically a citizen without papers but I'd have to go to Thailand to get the birth certificate and passport.

I'm more concerned with getting the birth certificate first though, as that is my main concern. Just trying to figure out how to begin without having to travel to Thailand

The Los Angeles consulate was simply less than helpful.

Is your birth cerificate in Thai or English? Most Thai birth certificates will state your nationality. Does your BC say anything about that?

I'm a bit surprised that you are entiled though, given that if your parents were UN workers and would have had diplomatic immunity, therfore nullifying your right to Thai citizenship.

What about the housing document (called a tabieen baan). That should state nationality on it as well.

[p_brownstone]

Anyway.

You are obviously an adult now and have visited various Countries so - equally obviously - you have valid Documents to enable you to do so.

Why can you not use those documents to support your application for a "Green Card"?

Patrick

[KenWingJitsu]

Neither one of my parents is Thai.

At the time, anyone born in Thailand (pre-1971) is granted citizenship, regardless whether the parents are Thai or not.

I found it funny that I had to argue this point to consulate workers before they verified it themselves and told me that yes, i am basically a citizen without papers but I'd have to go to Thailand to get the birth certificate and passport.

I'm more concerned with getting the birth certificate first though, as that is my main concern. Just trying to figure out how to begin without having to travel to Thailand

The Los Angeles consulate was simply less than helpful.

Is your birth cerificate in Thai or English? Most Thai birth certificates will state your nationality. Does your BC say anything about that?

I'm a bit surprised that you are entiled though, given that if your parents were UN workers and would have had diplomatic immunity, therfore nullifying your right to Thai citizenship.

What about the housing document (called a tabieen baan). That should state nationality on it as well.

To be more accurate, only my father was contracted through the UN - he wasn't exactly a UN employee.

The Birth Certificate is in English, the housing document is in Thai. The birth certificate was from the private hospital where I was born, so it doesn't state nationality - only that I was born.

The housing document quotes my nationality as Thai. I just had it translated.

p_brownstone,

the reason is that the apllication process does not seem to consider the private birth certificate to be an "official" birth certificate, and that's why they have requested an official birth certificate issued by the Thai government.

[samran]

I don't think that simply being born in Thailand - in the early '70's - automatically conferred Thai Citizenship (unless there are special regulations covering parents working for International Agencies such as the UN - which again I doubt).

Certainly in my case - daughter born in Bangkok in 1983 to a Thai mother and myself, British but with Permanent Residence in Thailand at the time of the birth; it was only that combination of circumstances which allowed my daughter to claim Thai Citizenship. Indeed the Hospital processed the documentation without reference to us as parents and assumed that I, as a Farang, was neither Thai nor a Permanent Resident in Thailand and the Birth Certificate they obtained had a notation "No right to Thai Citizenship".

At that time, even though one Parent was a Thai Citizen, if the other was neither Thai nor had Permanent Residence status in Thailand the child would not be entitled to Thai Citizenship.

We had to make a couple of trips to the local Amphur to get the notation removed from the Birth Certificate.

Hence my question as to the status / Citizenship of his Parents at the time of his birth.

Patrick

Actually the OP is correct, before then being born on Thai soil conferred Thai citizenship. I personally know of one guy - british parents - who has a Thai PP.

This continued until a revolutionary decree (no 308?) was issued in the early 70's which stopped that right of automatic citizenship - mainly to prevent the children of Vietnamese war refugees being granted Thai nationality. However, the revolutionary decree automatically left some children subsequently born to mixed parents in a bit of a limbo with regards to gaining Thai nationality (your daughter, my good self).

It was only the 1992 Nationality Act which conferred as a matter of course thai nationality to anyone born to a Thai citizen (inside or outside the country) or where both parents had PR (if born in Thailand). Despite being born in the 1970's, my thai birth certificate is issued in 1992 from the Thai embassy in Canberra.

A subsequent ammendment was made in 2008 which opened the window for a time which allowed those born on Thai soil but without a Thai parent between 1971 and 1992 to claim Thai citizenship so long as they could prove an ongoing link to Thailand.

(Patrick, you should do a search for posts by Arkady, he/she is a bit of an authority on all of this).

Edited August 14, 2009 by samran

[NanLaew]

Maybe the OP is trying for the green card 'lottery' and his current nationality is 'blocked' like those born in UK (except Northen Ireland)?

Maybe the Thai Embassy need a certified sworn translation of that old Bangkok birth certificate (if it is in Thai) and I reckon only the MFA in Bangkok might do that. **

As for consular staff being ignorant of the laws as they were writ almost 50 years ago, ie, probably before they were born... well, you see where patience may be needed. In retrospect, even trying to get this certification done in Bangkok will probably meet the same, if not more, official obfuscation and ignorance.

** I read the subsequent post from the OP regarding the unofficial English text birth certificate. That doesn't sound too good as the way I understand it, the hospital (these days) are responsible as acting registrar for taking down the parental and birthing information and obtaining the full Thai text legal and binding birth certificate. Short of direct enquiries at the Bangrak Amphur and follow up with MFA, I don't this there's a fast fix for this one. Having a Tibian Bhan with your name and Thai nationality listed is about the only document you have to support your claim and only the Amphur or MFA may recognize that IMHO.

Edited August 14, 2009 by NanLaew

[samran]

suspect a trip back to BKK to get it may have to happen, with a good lawyer in tow to help deal with the paper work and the confused civil servants (though it is possible for you to sign a power of attoerney and they do the leg work for you).

[Heng]

Not sure where he would start -in Bangkok- as this is an extraordinary case. BNH would be a stop. Although if they don't have records... and if whatever district BNH is located in doesn't have a record of it... With any luck you'll still be on the hospital's tabien baan and you'll be able to start there.

[KenWingJitsu]

Weell Hello all,

Just thought I would return to update this thread for those interested.

Yes my case is and was an extraordinary one.

Simply put I went through all kinds of steps to achieve this quest,... and I did.

I contacted several law firms in THailand to try to get them to represent me.

Between asking for ridiculous amounts of money, of suspicious requests of sending original documents and of wiring money directly via Western Union to their personal accounts (lol), to being told point blank I couldn't be helped, I finally got lucky.

I contacted a translator in Los Angeles to help me translate my documents to Thai so I could "possibly" send the copies to one of the afore-mentioned law firms.

He was busy and referred me to another translator. I met wigth him and he casually mentioned he was going to Thailand shortly.

I proposed that he represent me in obtaining an official copy of my birth certificate.

We agreed on a price (yes it was "kind of" expensive, but fair), and off he went.

Back and forth I had to go to the hopeless peeps in the thai consulate in LA to get the right 'power of attorney' document.

Which I had to Fed _Ex to him because there is a deadline once the process is begun.

I had to pay for his flight to Bangkok Bangrak district so they could open the archives, and lo and behold, there was my birth certificate.

He got the copy officially stamped and sent it to me.

I had it translated to english.

And... I was granted Thai citizenship at birth. It says I'm Thai on the birth certificate (as it does on my housing/registration document).

So I have now sent this copy to US immigration since this was their last request.

~WHEW!~

If anyone is ever in the same boat, get the power of attorney form, id documents, sing the form for the person who'll represent you, give them copies of everything and hope for the best.

[siam99]

Weell Hello all,

Just thought I would return to update this thread for those interested.

Yes my case is and was an extraordinary one.

Simply put I went through all kinds of steps to achieve this quest,... and I did.

I contacted several law firms in THailand to try to get them to represent me.

Between asking for ridiculous amounts of money, of suspicious requests of sending original documents and of wiring money directly via Western Union to their personal accounts (lol), to being told point blank I couldn't be helped, I finally got lucky.

I contacted a translator in Los Angeles to help me translate my documents to Thai so I could "possibly" send the copies to one of the afore-mentioned law firms.

He was busy and referred me to another translator. I met wigth him and he casually mentioned he was going to Thailand shortly.

I proposed that he represent me in obtaining an official copy of my birth certificate.

We agreed on a price (yes it was "kind of" expensive, but fair), and off he went.

Back and forth I had to go to the hopeless peeps in the thai consulate in LA to get the right 'power of attorney' document.

Which I had to Fed _Ex to him because there is a deadline once the process is begun.

I had to pay for his flight to Bangkok Bangrak district so they could open the archives, and lo and behold, there was my birth certificate.

He got the copy officially stamped and sent it to me.

I had it translated to english.

And... I was granted Thai citizenship at birth. It says I'm Thai on the birth certificate (as it does on my housing/registration document).

So I have now sent this copy to US immigration since this was their last request.

~WHEW!~

If anyone is ever in the same boat, get the power of attorney form, id documents, sing the form for the person who'll represent you, give them copies of everything and hope for the best.

Interesting thread! Congrats on getting your Thai BC in the end! I posted earlier this week and was told that I too will have to somehow obtain my Thai BC. I am one of those cases with both parents Thai but I was born outside of Thailand. If I ever did have a Thai BC I don't know where it went. Somehow I had a Thai PP back in the late 90s but my mother was taking care of all those legal stuffs then. (Maybe back then it was not entirely requisite?) Now I have to do this all on my own more or less and it sounds like I MAY have to resort to some legal help myself, including giving POA and so forth, to get all the papers in order. Anyway good to know more about ALL these details!

[Mario2008]

You having (had) Thai passport indicates that you have a Thai birth certificate, as you won't get one without a Thai BC. You could ask the embasy where you could get a duplicate if it was lost.

[KenWingJitsu]

You having (had) Thai passport indicates that you have a Thai birth certificate, as you won't get one without a Thai BC. You could ask the embasy where you could get a duplicate if it was lost.

Good luck dealing with the embassy or consulate.

They flat out told me I can't be a Thai citizen just by looking at me. Now I can go show them my BC and tell them where to stick their opinions.

Mario or anyone; any idea on easiest way to get a Thai passport that doesn't involve the consulate? lol.

They are just so incompetent.

[samran]

Great work, you've joined a select club by the sounds of it!

Since I last posted I've met a couple more Thailand born Farangs all with Thai citizenship. I reckon there are quite a few out there, but people don't notice them as they are in plain sight. It is only when you sit down and have a chat with them do these things come out. Most of them have married farang spouses, so their kids, born in Thailand (mostly blond haired and blue eyed!) are all Thai citizens as well.

I guess you probably don't have any immediate plans to come to live in Thailand, but with the paperwork all lined up, I guess you can at anytime you please!

Edited January 27, 2010 by samran

[samran]

Interesting thread! Congrats on getting your Thai BC in the end! I posted earlier this week and was told that I too will have to somehow obtain my Thai BC. I am one of those cases with both parents Thai but I was born outside of Thailand. If I ever did have a Thai BC I don't know where it went. Somehow I had a Thai PP back in the late 90s but my mother was taking care of all those legal stuffs then. (Maybe back then it was not entirely requisite?) Now I have to do this all on my own more or less and it sounds like I MAY have to resort to some legal help myself, including giving POA and so forth, to get all the papers in order. Anyway good to know more about ALL these details!

The best place to start is the Thai embassy in the country where you were born. They would be the only Thai government body officially authorised to issue you with a Thai birth certificate.