Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[animatic]

So there you have your "struggle for democracy", people simply fell for the populism of 1 million per Moo Ban, 30 Baht Health care skeem (scam), aso. The main thing is the million, they want this million more than everything else, democracy, come on, who gives a dam_n?

Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant to realise that this money didn't come out of the pocket of their "beloved PM" but out of their own pockets. So all in all it's just populism, which the less educated

People talk about populism as if it's the devil incarnate.

I'd like to see a political party in any country get in with a "We're going to increase taxes by 50%, increase immigration at the expense of the taxpayer and cut healthcare" policy

If populism is used by the amoral and their purely evil henchmen,

to enslave the masses and entrain their minds to ONE thought pattern,

and control all others via fear and intimidation using those masses as a cudgel,

and endevour to make them all BELIEVE that they are getting a better deal,

then yes 'Populism' can be tool of the devil incarnate.

Oh see the black pearl in my hand,

it's yours if you say it's a white pearl.

Slowly now, it's white, remember it's white,

want the pearl, it's white. Again.

Edited August 30, 2009 by animatic

[Ricardo]

Sigh, sigh...........Impossible I guess..........impossible to discuss political conceptual thinking without reversion to Thaksin stuff as subsequent postings have shown..........Is that because there is a paucity of independent and in-depth political thought here, or is Thaksin an all-enveloping presence permeating every fibre of political life in Thailand?.... I dunno..........sigh, sigh.

Despite their protestations of being 'true democrats' and all that, I don't really believe you can have a thread about the Red-Shirts, without their leader/hero/paymaster being mentioned. Sorry if you don't like that ... it's just the way it is.

As long as they're a paid force campaigning primarily for his pardon/amnesty/cash, they can't become more than that, any more than the PAD can outgrow their anti-Thaksin-corruption alliance roots.

Much as some of us might wish them to.

[yeeowww]

Brilliant statement Scott... and you're a moderator?! I would call setting up the ISA for the next proposed riot, er I mean rally, of paramount importance and certainly some of the most "real work" needed right now to keep things from completely digressing to the levels of last April. Or perhaps you'd just prefer they ignore the pressing issues at hand and let the Reds pillage and burn to their hearts content. Jeez...

And now the gov't will be busy cancelling this ISA and getting a new one in place. Hope they have some time to get some real work done.

[webfact]

Anybody will be flogging a dead horse here.

<snip>

Thaksin comes back and gives Farangs land ownership rights and long term visas without all the hoops to jump through..................................... if you could, would you vote for him ?

NO

[baht&sold]

Some quotes from todays Bkk Post:

- Chatuporn Prompan, another UDD leader, brushed aside reports red shirt leaders postponed the protest because the number of demonstrators joining the rally was not large enough.

- "The government imposed the heightened security measure to maintain order and prevent violence, not to bar the rally or stop the protesting," said the prime minister.

- Pongthep Thepkanchana, Thaksin's adviser, said the government should revoke use of the ISA in Dusit district right away. The ISA should only be enforced when an irregular situation had already occurred, not when somebody planned to hold a rally, he added.

- "On Sept 19, the three-year anniversary of the coup which toppled the Thaksin Shinawatra government, we will not retreat again but will stand and fight" said Natthawut Saikua, another leader.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2293...-in-face-of-isa

------------------------------

Following the insanity of Yellow airport closures and Red-riots, another Songkran type upheaval splashed all over world news headlines would absolutely bury Thailand. Also destroy any hopes for even a modest high-season and derail Thailand's emergence from recession. The 'colour' of the 'winner' would hardly matter in that case, Thailand would ultimately lose.

[Plus]

I believe that one of the reasons for the reds escalating their actions was the uneven handed manner in which the PAD protests were handled. We aren't talking about something that is completely disconnected here.

It WAS on of their reasons back before Songkran.

Now it IS disconnected.

Very strange argument. As though the actions of the last 3 years have absolutely no bearing on the issues today or even less tomorrow.

Today's issue is reds starting another wave of protests for no reason.

After Songkran riots their leaders are walking around free, they can't complain about "double standards", and they don't, btw.

The point is no one understands what they want now, no matter what excuses you come up on their behalf.

[webfact]

Some quotes from todays Bkk Post:

- Chatuporn Prompan, another UDD leader, brushed aside reports red shirt leaders postponed the protest because the number of demonstrators joining the rally was not large enough.

- "The government imposed the heightened security measure to maintain order and prevent violence, not to bar the rally or stop the protesting," said the prime minister.

- Pongthep Thepkanchana, Thaksin's adviser, said the government should revoke use of the ISA in Dusit district right away. The ISA should only be enforced when an irregular situation had already occurred, not when somebody planned to hold a rally, he added.

- "On Sept 19, the three-year anniversary of the coup which toppled the Thaksin Shinawatra government, we will not retreat again but will stand and fight" said Natthawut Saikua, another leader.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2293...-in-face-of-isa

------------------------------

Following the insanity of Yellow airport closures and Red-riots, another Songkran type upheaval splashed all over world news headlines would absolutely bury Thailand. Also destroy any hopes for even a modest high-season and derail Thailand's emergence from recession. The 'colour' of the 'winner' would hardly matter in that case, Thailand would ultimately lose.

...the very little confidence some tourists still have in this country! If the "high season" fails it will turn into an economic earthquake with the magnitude of a thermonuclear bomb! And from that Thailand will not recover!

Edited August 30, 2009 by webfact

[frodo]

Some quotes from todays Bkk Post:

- Chatuporn Prompan, another UDD leader, brushed aside reports red shirt leaders postponed the protest because the number of demonstrators joining the rally was not large enough.

- "The government imposed the heightened security measure to maintain order and prevent violence, not to bar the rally or stop the protesting," said the prime minister.

- Pongthep Thepkanchana, Thaksin's adviser, said the government should revoke use of the ISA in Dusit district right away. The ISA should only be enforced when an irregular situation had already occurred, not when somebody planned to hold a rally, he added.

- "On Sept 19, the three-year anniversary of the coup which toppled the Thaksin Shinawatra government, we will not retreat again but will stand and fight" said Natthawut Saikua, another leader.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2293...-in-face-of-isa

------------------------------

Following the insanity of Yellow airport closures and Red-riots, another Songkran type upheaval splashed all over world news headlines would absolutely bury Thailand. Also destroy any hopes for even a modest high-season and derail Thailand's emergence from recession. The 'colour' of the 'winner' would hardly matter in that case, Thailand would ultimately lose.

Thanks Baht & Sold. To add another piece from today's BKK Post ABAC Poll:

The survey also indicated that 53.1 per cent supported the red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship's decision to postpone its anti-government rally from Sunday to next Saturday. 36.8 per cent disagreed with the postponement while 10.1 per cent refused to respond.

61.4 per cent said they would be happier if former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra stops his political activities, but 38.6 per cent disagreed.

47.4 per cent said the government should continue working, 34.5 per cent wanted a House dissolution so a new general election can take place, 11 per cent wanted a change of political polarity, 6.8 per cent wanted Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to resign and 0.3 per cent believed a coup would be the solution.

ABAC Poll-Thai's Happier

[Thai at Heart]

I believe that one of the reasons for the reds escalating their actions was the uneven handed manner in which the PAD protests were handled. We aren't talking about something that is completely disconnected here.

It WAS on of their reasons back before Songkran.

Now it IS disconnected.

Very strange argument. As though the actions of the last 3 years have absolutely no bearing on the issues today or even less tomorrow.

Today's issue is reds starting another wave of protests for no reason.

After Songkran riots their leaders are walking around free, they can't complain about "double standards", and they don't, btw.

The point is no one understands what they want now, no matter what excuses you come up on their behalf.

I am not excusing anything, the violent protests over Songkran were awful. The way the PAD was repeatedly allowed to persist in defiance of relevant authorities was ridiculous.

I am more concerned about where the country goes from here. Are we to see protest/marches announced and the repeated use of the Internal Security Act to quell all protest? No one knows so lets wait and see, but the precedent has been set.

As I mentioned in my earlier post the use of this act is a very serious issue and doesn't actually go anywhere to helping to solve the underlying issues at hand.

[Datsun240Z]

Not sure if this thread is still valid. It sure is long.

You indicate that 'Red' and 'yellow' are simplistic and shallow in defining the political divide, and then you tell me that I am committing the same error by defining the political divide as "pro-democracy' vs. 'anti-democracy'

At least Brahmburger, I place the two sides into a political context. You must agree that group affinity colors say nothing.

My point, that is exactly what the anti-democracy people want - to say nothing. They dont want the international community, or anyone else for that matter, to think there is a struggle for democracy in Thailand.

You will notice they have low-keyed the 70-30 concept completely. As long as people focus on colors, and not 70-30 vs. one-person-one-vote electoral politics, gives them the space to strategize toward their goals.

So Brahmburger, how would you, or others on this board identify this political divide......The elite vs. the egalitarian, the paternalistic vs. the electoral?

Any sincere attempt at defining the political divide into a political context would be great for future discussions. Anything to get away from hiding political realities behind simplistic and shallow color descriptors would be an improvement.

As long as one can avoid diverting into anti-Thaksin hatred diatribes that is the only political commentary many on this board are capable of, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus on defining terminology.

My contribution is the pro-democracy movement-PDM (in favor of one-person-one-vote elections) VS. the anti-democracy movement-ADM (the advocates of a paternalistic 70-30 concept). That may not be a perfect dichotomy, but I think it comes close.

Just to get this clear Maiya, if you ask any red-shirted farmer, (which most of them are) what is so great about Thaksin, you'll see the answer will mostly be something like : He cared about, us! How? He gave us money!

So there you have your "struggle for democracy", people simply fell for the populism of 1 million per Moo Ban, 30 Baht Health care skeem (scam), aso. The main thing is the million, they want this million more than everything else, democracy, come on, who gives a dam_n?

Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant to realise that this money didn't come out of the pocket of their "beloved PM" but out of their own pockets. So all in all it's just populism, which the less educated and political-economical knowlegeable people fall for so easy.

There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in such a hurry privatising the hel_l out of thailand. And there we come again to the point that some educated people around realised, that without stopping him at that point, half of the country would be in foreign hands. and I'm not talking about hotels in phuket, I'm talking about railways, TOT, electricity board, and many more.

I know some years have passed, but don't forget why people where digusted at the time. He was selling out his own country! (to make the poor farmers that wouldn't know what was going on in the first place, think he is throwing around millions out of generosity)

Get real! Most people in this whole pro-democracy movement, don't give much about democracy but they love their "elected PM" for the money, he seems to have so much of!

Maybe soon it will be "nung phet do moobaan" (one diamond per village) sounds good and would come cheaper!

Ow wait, isn't that in every " Democratic Modernized Country " the case? The get protection and safety, you need to pay TAX.

[Datsun240Z]

Some quotes from todays Bkk Post:

- Chatuporn Prompan, another UDD leader, brushed aside reports red shirt leaders postponed the protest because the number of demonstrators joining the rally was not large enough.

- "The government imposed the heightened security measure to maintain order and prevent violence, not to bar the rally or stop the protesting," said the prime minister.

- Pongthep Thepkanchana, Thaksin's adviser, said the government should revoke use of the ISA in Dusit district right away. The ISA should only be enforced when an irregular situation had already occurred, not when somebody planned to hold a rally, he added.

- "On Sept 19, the three-year anniversary of the coup which toppled the Thaksin Shinawatra government, we will not retreat again but will stand and fight" said Natthawut Saikua, another leader.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2293...-in-face-of-isa

------------------------------

Following the insanity of Yellow airport closures and Red-riots, another Songkran type upheaval splashed all over world news headlines would absolutely bury Thailand. Also destroy any hopes for even a modest high-season and derail Thailand's emergence from recession. The 'colour' of the 'winner' would hardly matter in that case, Thailand would ultimately lose.

...the very little confidence some tourists still have in this country! If the "high season" fails it will turn into an economic earthquake with the magnitude of a thermonuclear bomb! And from that Thailand will not recover!

Well we could say " let the Thais fix Thailand ", but would they really fix it or destroy it? Making it Burma with powerlines? A Thai is a Thai, they don't like outside critics.....

[Plus]

The Internal Security act doesn't outlaw red rallies, and it's not a reason people worry about red protests.

The reason is that they don't see justification for it and can't emphatise with red cause anymore. Certainly not to a point of putting up with street rallies and govt house blockades.

Apparently even red leaders understand this better that you. The perception is that reds are troublemakers and have no sympathy. The only difference is that reds say this perception was created and manipulated by the govt, while I say they have no one else to blame but themselves.

[Old Man River]

The Internal Security act doesn't outlaw red rallies, and it's not a reason people worry about red protests.

The reason is that they don't see justification for it and can't emphatise with red cause anymore. Certainly not to a point of putting up with street rallies and govt house blockades.

Apparently even red leaders understand this better that you. The perception is that reds are troublemakers and have no sympathy. The only difference is that reds say this perception was created and manipulated by the govt, while I say they have no one else to blame but themselves.

That is my take on it as well. The bottom line is that the leaders of the Reds were not able to draw the numbers they had hoped and instead of embarrassing themselves, they canceled the protest and blamed the government to save face.

[animatic]

The questions are:

Who pays the taxes and how much?

And who gets what services and how much?

Who is in charge of local disbursment?

And WHY they make their choices?

AND the penultimate question;

Which leadership cadre will be the most fair to ALL sides?

One side tries to share the load and largese some, and increasingly so across the board,

The other side shares with it's friends,

and a small percentage to creating appearances

and so into specifically keeping their base of power in line.

But Datson, that was not the argument being made.

[Jingthing]

Is it possible the DUD petition and the cancellation of the red rally (their choice, they were allowed to proceed PEACEFULLY) is the beginning of the END of the tedious Thaksin red movement? I certainly hope so.

[noithip]

Ow wait, isn't that in every "Democratic Modernized Country" the case? The get protection and safety, you need to pay TAX.

I think you missed my point. Protection and safety are certainly things to demand in a "Democratic Modernized Country". But making reforms like the 30 Baht health reform didn't bring much protection, they just made the private hospitals grow like shrooms because the public hospitals went from poor to pathetic. The point is that it's a smart thing to buy the goodwill of the mayors and villagers with a million for each village, if you want to get re-elected, just unfortunatly the state didn't really have enough money to finance it. So they had to sell out whatever stateowned to cover the big holes they were creating. So wouldn't people with some kind of clear thought in any other "Democratic Modernized Country" take to the streets to make an end to it? Just to remind you, the first to come out and protest where the railway workers, that fought against beeing sold out...

So now they are saying they will "stand and fight" and we all know what that means. Unfortunatly the red shirts learned to much of the PAD tactics (which they condemn) and know by hitting the tourism-economy they can most likely bring the government to a collapse. So another case of trying to help the people liberise themselfs by wrecking what is left of the country. The yellows were destroying half of the tourists confidence, now the reds can destroy the other half and here we go Banana Republic without bananas.

In the tuffest times there is always need for the strong man. Worked before and probably works again.

Too sad, that he has to come back "by all means".

You read what HM said about the future of this country if people don't start working together? It will fail! Unfortunately this is getting all too likley...

[Plus]

.. Note the budget bill just got voted through. This is huge as it the bureacrats can now start spending it which will help government. The PAD were always trying to thwart budget bills too.

I just remembered to check that out - no, PAD had nothing to do with budget bill last year. It was approved by parliament after three day deliberation in September, while Samak was still in power. It was passed with 275:122 margin with three abstentions - clearly not along party lines.

At that time PAD had occupied the govt house but not the parliament. Their first move on parliament was a month later, in October.

It's not correct to say that PAD tried to thwart the budget bill.

[Plus]

Just to remind you, the first to come out and protest where the railway workers, that fought against beeing sold out..

I think you mean EGAT (electricity) workers protesting against privatisation.

They asked people to put up yellow flags on their cars to show support.

[mca]

If it was so 'cut and dried' a return to power, then why oh why

did PPP feel such a need to CHEAT in the election???

Are you saying that the Democrats didn't cheat in the election? Guess the army officer I know who told me that his squaddies were told en masse to vote Democrat was a liar then.

Maybe he told you what you wanted to hear?

Well seeing as he raised the subject........

Is that truly the best you can come up with when you something comes along that puts a burst in your little bubble of how only Thaksin and his supporters could possibly be dishonest?

[mca]

People talk about populism as if it's the devil incarnate.

I'd like to see a political party in any country get in with a "We're going to increase taxes by 50%, increase immigration at the expense of the taxpayer and cut healthcare" policy

So you didn't really get it, did you? If you don't have any arguments then why not just pick out a word and try to ignore the actual content of the post. Just another proof how "simple minded" you guys are after all! I didn't say populism is bad, I said selling out his country is!

But the sctual point was stop talking so much pro democracy BS if it is not about democracy at all!

I know how bad Thaksin is. You're preaching to the converted here. Same as Samak who followed him. Utter turd. What's truly "simple minded" is the people on this forum who consider military coups, firing somebody for hosting a bloody cooking show and taking over an airport to be acceptable forms of democracy as opposed to the party actually voted in (you know, with a silly thing democratic thing by winning an election) being allowed to stay.

[noithip]

People talk about populism as if it's the devil incarnate.

I'd like to see a political party in any country get in with a "We're going to increase taxes by 50%, increase immigration at the expense of the taxpayer and cut healthcare" policy

So you didn't really get it, did you? If you don't have any arguments then why not just pick out a word and try to ignore the actual content of the post. Just another proof how "simple minded" you guys are after all! I didn't say populism is bad, I said selling out his country is!

But the sctual point was stop talking so much pro democracy BS if it is not about democracy at all!

I know how bad Thaksin is. You're preaching to the converted here. Same as Samak who followed him. Utter turd. What's truly "simple minded" is the people on this forum who consider military coups, firing somebody for hosting a bloody cooking show and taking over an airport to be acceptable forms of democracy as opposed to the party actually voted in (you know, with a silly thing democratic thing by winning an election) being allowed to stay.

Ok it was a tough time politically, many ugly episodes, but what about the future, is there any plan for a "national reconciliation" without Thaksin? Would the red shirts considering that by the PAD doing things undemocratically, do them in a more "democratic" way? If the PAD was wrong, why copy them? Phuea Thai is still the strongest Party in parliament they would be able to do something in a democratic way, or not? But bringing back a bunch of banned politicians just seems to be so much more democratic...

[animatic]

If it was so 'cut and dried' a return to power, then why oh why

did PPP feel such a need to CHEAT in the election???

Are you saying that the Democrats didn't cheat in the election? Guess the army officer I know who told me that his squaddies were told en masse to vote Democrat was a liar then.

Maybe he told you what you wanted to hear?

Well seeing as he raised the subject........

Is that truly the best you can come up with when you something comes along that puts a burst in your little bubble of how only Thaksin and his supporters could possibly be dishonest?

It never burst any bubble, because you only assume I don't think any Dems cheated.

If any did they were much more subtle and less arrogant about it.

And it wasn't as top down systematic as far as can be seen.

And more Dems when accused for other issues are quiting their jobs early

and showing a better example than ANY TRT PPP PTP that I have seen.

Sorry no bubble to burst,

but defending the indefensible is getting harder for you these days.

[Maiya]

Sigh, sigh...........Impossible I guess..........impossible to discuss political conceptual thinking without reversion to Thaksin stuff as subsequent postings have shown..........Is that because there is a paucity of independent and in-depth political thought here, or is Thaksin an all-enveloping presence permeating every fibre of political life in Thailand?.... I dunno..........sigh, sigh.

Despite their protestations of being 'true democrats' and all that, I don't really believe you can have a thread about the Red-Shirts, without their leader/hero/paymaster being mentioned. Sorry if you don't like that ... it's just the way it is.

As long as they're a paid force campaigning primarily for his pardon/amnesty/cash, they can't become more than that, any more than the PAD can outgrow their anti-Thaksin-corruption alliance roots.

Much as some of us might wish them to.

Well, that settles it.

That settles the question of calling the two sides on this political divide something other than the non-descriptive yellow/red, as opposed to describing them in a political context

The Farangs on this board don't #1...... have the knowledge or #2....... the courage or #3...... both,................................................... to rise above this simplistic color designation of a serious political divide:

#1...They don't have the necessary knowledge base to rise above this simplistic color thing. They don't have any idea what other terminology to use. So they stick to the simplistic yellow/red thing. But I can understand...it doesn't tax the brain near as much. Besides, everyone else is doing it, so why not.

#2...Even if some had and alternative POV to this color derivation, they dont have the courage to use it. Yellow/red is safe - everyone else is doing it!

#3...Or both...lack of knowledge and lack of courage to venture a new idea in this regard. Better to just go back to the tried and true - yellow, red, and dump on Thaksin.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Maiya

[mc2]

^ good post maiya. pretty much sums it up

[ThNiner]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup. it was only after the yellow shirts and so called "elites"/military expelled the elected governments of samak and somchai and orchestrated the current coalition that the reds saw the injustice and decided to make their voices heard.

Just a quick recap:

There were plenty of regular protests after the coup, it was so hated that sometimes even 300 people would show up. On the biggest Consitution day rally there were easily 5,000. There was no color designation at that time yet.

Red movement started with a massive rally at Sanam Luang in 2007, with Thaksin's first phone in. It wasn't long before when reds tried to storm Prem's residence leaving two hundred policemen injured. When PPP formed the government after teh elections they dissipated.

Then, in 2008, when PAD held their first seminar, indoor, I might add, red movement came back. They threw bottles and plastic bags with urine and excrements at PAD buses, and one proud red displayed his genitalia to express his outrage at other people holding their meetings.

As PAD protests grew pro-Thaksin forces realised that they need to counteract them with their own "mass-movement" to take control of the streets. People were mobilised from all over the country. That eventually led to a drunken red mob, armed with machetes and clubs, storming smaller and less protected PAD camp in the middle of the night. PAD guards quickly regrouped and beat them back. One attacker lost his life.

After that PAD rallies were attacked all throughout the country, most notably Udon Lovers mob severely beating about a dozen PAD members unconsicous while they were preparing their rally. The stage was completely destroyed, and they used Thai flagpoles, among other weapons. The leader was offering monetary rewards to anyone who could kill a PAD leader. He was on the PPP govt payroll at that time.

After a spate of such attacks PAD leadership was forced to concentrate in Bangkok and give up on holding any meetings upcountry. Red power was rising.

In Bangkok red leaders held training camps where they taught their foot soldiers to use weapons and throw grenades. Shortly after that PAD camps were bombed almost nightly. Our resident red, Koo, was saying that if PAD refused to obey by Red demands, bombing them into submission was the right thing to do.

Then late in 2008, Reds had an image makeover with highly publicised and peaceful rally at Hua Mark that featured Thaksin's video appearance (or phone in, I don't remember). From that point on reds started telling everyone how peaceful they were and that lasted until Songkran mayhem.

>>>

Please don't try to list all PAD examples of violence to change the subject - it's not PAD who is going to oust the government now and keep everyone worrying, it's reds.

[ThNiner]

We can argue about the scale of the violence and it is true that the reds over Songkran were awful. However, the PAD never had to face the army did they.

What the PAD faced on October 7 of last year was much worse than anything the army ever did to the reds druing Songkran. It's just really mindboggling and sad how the tragedy on Oct 7 can be so easilly dismissed and forgotten by some people.

[Datsun240Z]

The army and politics in Thailand, do NOT work together. Everybody goes his own way. Laughable.....

[Hardy99]

Not sure if this thread is still valid. It sure is long.

You indicate that 'Red' and 'yellow' are simplistic and shallow in defining the political divide, and then you tell me that I am committing the same error by defining the political divide as "pro-democracy' vs. 'anti-democracy'

At least Brahmburger, I place the two sides into a political context. You must agree that group affinity colors say nothing.

My point, that is exactly what the anti-democracy people want - to say nothing. They dont want the international community, or anyone else for that matter, to think there is a struggle for democracy in Thailand.

You will notice they have low-keyed the 70-30 concept completely. As long as people focus on colors, and not 70-30 vs. one-person-one-vote electoral politics, gives them the space to strategize toward their goals.

So Brahmburger, how would you, or others on this board identify this political divide......The elite vs. the egalitarian, the paternalistic vs. the electoral?

Any sincere attempt at defining the political divide into a political context would be great for future discussions. Anything to get away from hiding political realities behind simplistic and shallow color descriptors would be an improvement.

As long as one can avoid diverting into anti-Thaksin hatred diatribes that is the only political commentary many on this board are capable of, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus on defining terminology.

My contribution is the pro-democracy movement-PDM (in favor of one-person-one-vote elections) VS. the anti-democracy movement-ADM (the advocates of a paternalistic 70-30 concept). That may not be a perfect dichotomy, but I think it comes close.

Just to get this clear Maiya, if you ask any red-shirted farmer, (which most of them are) what is so great about Thaksin, you'll see the answer will mostly be something like : He cared about, us! How? He gave us money!

So there you have your "struggle for democracy", people simply fell for the populism of 1 million per Moo Ban, 30 Baht Health care skeem (scam), aso. The main thing is the million, they want this million more than everything else, democracy, come on, who gives a dam_n?

Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant to realise that this money didn't come out of the pocket of their "beloved PM" but out of their own pockets. So all in all it's just populism, which the less educated and political-economical knowlegeable people fall for so easy.

There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in such a hurry privatising the hel_l out of thailand. And there we come again to the point that some educated people around realised, that without stopping him at that point, half of the country would be in foreign hands. and I'm not talking about hotels in phuket, I'm talking about railways, TOT, electricity board, and many more.

I know some years have passed, but don't forget why people where digusted at the time. He was selling out his own country! (to make the poor farmers that wouldn't know what was going on in the first place, think he is throwing around millions out of generosity)

Get real! Most people in this whole pro-democracy movement, don't give much about democracy but they love their "elected PM" for the money, he seems to have so much of!

Maybe soon it will be "nung phet do moobaan" (one diamond per village) sounds good and would come cheaper!

So ... noithip

..:"He cared about, us! How? He gave us money..:" Whats wrong about that?? He gave many people HOPE and FOOD(and some future)! What you think if your grandmom lays on the street and gets no treatment.. because there is no one has a VISA Card..?? Ha.. to you. Medical help for the (poor&rich) people is important.. WHO gave before?? Do you know that daily about 28000 People die about hunger and no medical care?? Do you think it doesnt matter if there are some Thais too...???

... "Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant ..." I prefer thankfull and honest people.. why you gona go to write bad about people who did never get a chance for a better education? Do you think you are better just about your "better education"? What did you do for that education... ha... you just was lucky that your parents had enough money to pay for it - that NOT makes you a better human at all!! How can you know that all of them are ignorant... wasnt it ignorant to occupy Suvarnabhumi and let hundred thousands stranded (and the same amount Thai workers Jobless meanwhile..)

...There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there... very simple QUESTION to YOU... easy to answer and i wonder you are educated enough to do so: HOW many billions of bath open debt THAILAND had when Dr.Thaksin came to power?? Who was PM before k'Thaksin, and just give me 2-3 samples of what THEY did good for the country.. ok??

... He was selling out his own country! ... can you give some samples please???

and finally... if someone can write about "the uneducated (means dump) people" no need democratic rights it is a very sad story! I mean they need the right for better education and the right to vote as they are Thai people like the rich and the richest, thats democratic!

How high is the value, the farmers produce for Thailand, how high is the income out of farmers products? You know the main income is coming from Tourism Industry... do you know who works in that industry(and Car,Machine,fabrics etc..).. roommates, waitresses, bellboys, cookhelps, cleaning, mechanics, ..... again most of them are the children of the (poorer, less educated) country region people you like to discredit so much... yes may be you was one of the "nung pet for all rich elites a year" and under TRT that money has gone to the poor.. thats right

[Hardy99]

Some quotes from todays Bkk Post:

- Chatuporn Prompan, another UDD leader, brushed aside reports red shirt leaders postponed the protest because the number of demonstrators joining the rally was not large enough.

- "The government imposed the heightened security measure to maintain order and prevent violence, not to bar the rally or stop the protesting," said the prime minister.

- Pongthep Thepkanchana, Thaksin's adviser, said the government should revoke use of the ISA in Dusit district right away. The ISA should only be enforced when an irregular situation had already occurred, not when somebody planned to hold a rally, he added.

- "On Sept 19, the three-year anniversary of the coup which toppled the Thaksin Shinawatra government, we will not retreat again but will stand and fight" said Natthawut Saikua, another leader.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2293...-in-face-of-isa

------------------------------

Following the insanity of Yellow airport closures and Red-riots, another Songkran type upheaval splashed all over world news headlines would absolutely bury Thailand. Also destroy any hopes for even a modest high-season and derail Thailand's emergence from recession. The 'colour' of the 'winner' would hardly matter in that case, Thailand would ultimately lose.

OOOOOOOHhhhhhhhhhhhhh

If you believe that Bangkok Post is an independent newspaper... you make me laugh (i like laughing)

BK Post same as Nation just write what the richest of the rich's (Bangkok elite, Shareholders...)

censorship agrees too.. did you try to read other news same as reuters ..

[Maiya]

Not sure if this thread is still valid. It sure is long.

You indicate that 'Red' and 'yellow' are simplistic and shallow in defining the political divide, and then you tell me that I am committing the same error by defining the political divide as "pro-democracy' vs. 'anti-democracy'

At least Brahmburger, I place the two sides into a political context. You must agree that group affinity colors say nothing.

My point, that is exactly what the anti-democracy people want - to say nothing. They dont want the international community, or anyone else for that matter, to think there is a struggle for democracy in Thailand.

You will notice they have low-keyed the 70-30 concept completely. As long as people focus on colors, and not 70-30 vs. one-person-one-vote electoral politics, gives them the space to strategize toward their goals.

So Brahmburger, how would you, or others on this board identify this political divide......The elite vs. the egalitarian, the paternalistic vs. the electoral?

Any sincere attempt at defining the political divide into a political context would be great for future discussions. Anything to get away from hiding political realities behind simplistic and shallow color descriptors would be an improvement.

As long as one can avoid diverting into anti-Thaksin hatred diatribes that is the only political commentary many on this board are capable of, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus on defining terminology.

My contribution is the pro-democracy movement-PDM (in favor of one-person-one-vote elections) VS. the anti-democracy movement-ADM (the advocates of a paternalistic 70-30 concept). That may not be a perfect dichotomy, but I think it comes close.

Just to get this clear Maiya, if you ask any red-shirted farmer, (which most of them are) what is so great about Thaksin, you'll see the answer will mostly be something like : He cared about, us! How? He gave us money!

So there you have your "struggle for democracy", people simply fell for the populism of 1 million per Moo Ban, 30 Baht Health care skeem (scam), aso. The main thing is the million, they want this million more than everything else, democracy, come on, who gives a dam_n?

Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant to realise that this money didn't come out of the pocket of their "beloved PM" but out of their own pockets. So all in all it's just populism, which the less educated and political-economical knowlegeable people fall for so easy.

There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in such a hurry privatising the hel_l out of thailand. And there we come again to the point that some educated people around realised, that without stopping him at that point, half of the country would be in foreign hands. and I'm not talking about hotels in phuket, I'm talking about railways, TOT, electricity board, and many more.

I know some years have passed, but don't forget why people where digusted at the time. He was selling out his own country! (to make the poor farmers that wouldn't know what was going on in the first place, think he is throwing around millions out of generosity)

Get real! Most people in this whole pro-democracy movement, don't give much about democracy but they love their "elected PM" for the money, he seems to have so much of!

Maybe soon it will be "nung phet do moobaan" (one diamond per village) sounds good and would come cheaper!

So ... noithip

..:"He cared about, us! How? He gave us money..:" Whats wrong about that?? He gave many people HOPE and FOOD(and some future)! What you think if your grandmom lays on the street and gets no treatment.. because there is no one has a VISA Card..?? Ha.. to you. Medical help for the (poor&rich) people is important.. WHO gave before?? Do you know that daily about 28000 People die about hunger and no medical care?? Do you think it doesnt matter if there are some Thais too...???

... "Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant ..." I prefer thankfull and honest people.. why you gona go to write bad about people who did never get a chance for a better education? Do you think you are better just about your "better education"? What did you do for that education... ha... you just was lucky that your parents had enough money to pay for it - that NOT makes you a better human at all!! How can you know that all of them are ignorant... wasnt it ignorant to occupy Suvarnabhumi and let hundred thousands stranded (and the same amount Thai workers Jobless meanwhile..)

...There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there... very simple QUESTION to YOU... easy to answer and i wonder you are educated enough to do so: HOW many billions of bath open debt THAILAND had when Dr.Thaksin came to power?? Who was PM before k'Thaksin, and just give me 2-3 samples of what THEY did good for the country.. ok??

... He was selling out his own country! ... can you give some samples please???

and finally... if someone can write about "the uneducated (means dump) people" no need democratic rights it is a very sad story! I mean they need the right for better education and the right to vote as they are Thai people like the rich and the richest, thats democratic!

How high is the value, the farmers produce for Thailand, how high is the income out of farmers products? You know the main income is coming from Tourism Industry... do you know who works in that industry(and Car,Machine,fabrics etc..).. roommates, waitresses, bellboys, cookhelps, cleaning, mechanics, ..... again most of them are the children of the (poorer, less educated) country region people you like to discredit so much... yes may be you was one of the "nung pet for all rich elites a year" and under TRT that money has gone to the poor.. thats right

Thank you for providing some historical perspective Hardy99.

I wish there were more Thai people on this board who could provide similar pre-Thaksin, Thaksin and post-Thaksin data.

That would confuse the Farangs very much.

With no historical perspective beyond several years at most, they don't know, what they don't know!