Sunday Redshirt Rally Postponed

[animatic]

Ow wait, isn't that in every "Democratic Modernized Country" the case? The get protection and safety, you need to pay TAX.

I think you missed my point. Protection and safety are certainly things to demand in a "Democratic Modernized Country". But making reforms like the 30 Baht health reform didn't bring much protection, they just made the private hospitals grow like shrooms because the public hospitals went from poor to pathetic. The point is that it's a smart thing to buy the goodwill of the mayors and villagers with a million for each village, if you want to get re-elected, just unfortunatly the state didn't really have enough money to finance it. So they had to sell out whatever stateowned to cover the big holes they were creating. So wouldn't people with some kind of clear thought in any other "Democratic Modernized Country" take to the streets to make an end to it? Just to remind you, the first to come out and protest where the railway workers, that fought against beeing sold out...

So now they are saying they will "stand and fight" and we all know what that means. Unfortunatly the red shirts learned to much of the PAD tactics (which they condemn) and know by hitting the tourism-economy they can most likely bring the government to a collapse. So another case of trying to help the people liberise themselfs by wrecking what is left of the country. The yellows were destroying half of the tourists confidence, now the reds can destroy the other half and here we go Banana Republic without bananas.

In the tuffest times there is always need for the strong man. Worked before and probably works again.

Too sad, that he has to come back "by all means".

You read what HM said about the future of this country if people don't start working together? It will fail! Unfortunately this is getting all too likley...

There are a LOT of villages to give a million baht EACH to...

But lets not forget when Thaksin sold off lots of assets, who was buying?

Thaksin's TRT cronies got huge shares for sure.

[Ricardo]

Sigh, sigh...........Impossible I guess..........impossible to discuss political conceptual thinking without reversion to Thaksin stuff as subsequent postings have shown..........Is that because there is a paucity of independent and in-depth political thought here, or is Thaksin an all-enveloping presence permeating every fibre of political life in Thailand?.... I dunno..........sigh, sigh.

Despite their protestations of being 'true democrats' and all that, I don't really believe you can have a thread about the Red-Shirts, without their leader/hero/paymaster being mentioned. Sorry if you don't like that ... it's just the way it is.

As long as they're a paid force campaigning primarily for his pardon/amnesty/cash, they can't become more than that, any more than the PAD can outgrow their anti-Thaksin-corruption alliance roots.

Much as some of us might wish them to.

Well, that settles it.

That settles the question of calling the two sides on this political divide something other than the non-descriptive yellow/red, as opposed to describing them in a political context

The Farangs on this board don't #1...... have the knowledge or #2....... the courage or #3...... both,................................................... to rise above this simplistic color designation of a serious political divide:

#1...They don't have the necessary knowledge base to rise above this simplistic color thing. They don't have any idea what other terminology to use. So they stick to the simplistic yellow/red thing. But I can understand...it doesn't tax the brain near as much. Besides, everyone else is doing it, so why not.

#2...Even if some had and alternative POV to this color derivation, they dont have the courage to use it. Yellow/red is safe - everyone else is doing it!

#3...Or both...lack of knowledge and lack of courage to venture a new idea in this regard. Better to just go back to the tried and true - yellow, red, and dump on Thaksin.

Dear Maiya, you seem to have missed my point, and gone off at a tangent.

You were complaining that Thaksin gets dragged into everything. I politely pointed out that he is central to two of the pressure-groups concerned, this thread being about one of them. You now repeat that this means the farangs on TV can't rise above colour-designation of politics, because they lack courage or knowledge or your own extensive vocabulary.

I disagree. This is a complex situation, with many groups involved, it would indeed be simplistic to say that Thailand is divided solely into Reds or Yellows. Almost as simplistic as to try to argue that one group is pro-democracy, and the other anti-democracy, as some new posters suggest, or that Thaksin has nothing to do with the current situation..

[Hardy99]

You say it's so it's so shallow and simplistic to divvy the two factions in to colors (tho newspapers and commentators do it), yet you divvy them in to pro-dems and anti-dems. Look who's calling the kettle black.

Democracy isn't pretty, and even in some of the best functioning democracies, there are screw-ups (example: Gore losing to Bush in 2000, even though Gore had more votes). Democracy in Thailand, with its stratified social order and lack of democratic traditions, is more difficult. It's possible, but they're not quite there yet.

Because it's a small country, and the populace is used to being told what to think / how to vote (rote learning, do as you're told mentality) it's also relatively easy to pay for votes. Thaksin did win votes, but his legacy, as manifested by Red Shirt leaders, is twisting things in uglier directions. They're now a lot closer to mob rule than democratic principles.

Cool heads should prevail. All colored and non-colored shirt wearers should prepare for subsequent elections. Join a party they like, campaign hardily (and legally), and accept who wins, even if it's not their candidate of choice.

T was run out of office by a bloodless coup because too many Thais had gotten beyond their tolerance point regarding his many many illegal and harmful acts. The coup wasn't democratic but, like a body with cancer throughout, sometimes extreme surgery (outside of what's prescribed in medical manuals) is needed to save a patient.

Also, you'll notice that during and right after the coup, there were no complaints and no resistance. It was only months later, after T saw his ill-begotten assets getting frozen, that the Red Shirt movement got started. Between the coup and the asset freezing motion, T had repeatedly announced, "that's it, I'm out of politics." uh huh, that statement rings about as true as any of the other dozens of lies he's trotted out in the past 7 years.

Not sure if this thread is still valid. It sure is long.

You indicate that 'Red' and 'yellow' are simplistic and shallow in defining the political divide, and then you tell me that I am committing the same error by defining the political divide as "pro-democracy' vs. 'anti-democracy'

At least Brahmburger, I place the two sides into a political context. You must agree that group affinity colors say nothing.

My point, that is exactly what the anti-democracy people want - to say nothing. They dont want the international community, or anyone else for that matter, to think there is a struggle for democracy in Thailand.

You will notice they have low-keyed the 70-30 concept completely. As long as people focus on colors, and not 70-30 vs. one-person-one-vote electoral politics, gives them the space to strategize toward their goals.

So Brahmburger, how would you, or others on this board identify this political divide......The elite vs. the egalitarian, the paternalistic vs. the electoral?

Any sincere attempt at defining the political divide into a political context would be great for future discussions. Anything to get away from hiding political realities behind simplistic and shallow color descriptors would be an improvement.

As long as one can avoid diverting into anti-Thaksin hatred diatribes that is the only political commentary many on this board are capable of, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus on defining terminology.

My contribution is the pro-democracy movement-PDM (in favor of one-person-one-vote elections) VS. the anti-democracy movement-ADM (the advocates of a paternalistic 70-30 concept). That may not be a perfect dichotomy, but I think it comes close.

Sigh, sigh...........Impossible I guess..........impossible to discuss political conceptual thinking without reversion to Thaksin stuff as subsequent postings have shown..........Is that because there is a paucity of independent and in-depth political thought here, or is Thaksin an all-enveloping presence permeating every fibre of political life in Thailand?.... I dunno..........sigh, sigh.

Sigh triple sigh.

It is impossible to discuss current Thai politics sans Thaksin because he has made himself

central to the so far nascent civil war warming up. He IS the reason for most of todays issues,

and not the plight of the issan farmers, that is propagated and continued by there very puyais

who get them to vote for Dr' T and his political machine. The hypocrisies are trenchant.

"paucity of independent and in-depth political thought"

Glad you mentioned this... slip-up maybe?

It is Thaksins up country political machine that is the WORST perpetrator

and practitioner of creating this paucity of independent and in-depth political thought.

Thanks sometimes you make MY arguments for me.

70/30 was ONE proposal thrown out from the stage, one night and discussed,

and not a PLATFORM for the future. But only ONE of many ideas discussed,

to solve the issues of the day.

But it was a turning point for the Reds because they used THAT one speech,

as their ticket to become Democracy advocates. That was their hook to use.

Never mind that it was dropped by PAD very quickly. 'Look. look what they want to do,

they very bad elites people...', yada yada yada..

and Red propagandists have ridden than dead horse for a long time since.

See the discussion of basic ideas, short of seditions, is not looked on well here.

Say one thing and be branded for ever...

oops shouldn't have had an idea good bad or indifferent,

Only perfectly actualized ideas maybe discussed, righty O.

Talking basic politics MUST include the major players and how to reach

long term goals without short term dislocations of much of society.

Thaksin has short term goals that include him as Dear Leader, Godhead

and Profiterer in Chief. His Track record is not one of true innovation

for the betterment of all Thais. Since the present imborglio is central

to Thaksin's machinations, it is impossible to divorce the two.

Try as you might to heed the master's beck and call for an image scrub.

Can we fit the Square Head in the Polyform Hole?

@animatic

ooohh you seem to know everything... if i read your posts.. what you say to someone posted 7 times... ? Do you know that it is QUALITY whats counts, not quantity??

I post in a few other sites.. no need to post much, but write the truth! Who told you the reds want a REVOLUTION?? I wonder..!! (Answer please with a name.. not just YOUR hypothesis..) They clear want what AV(PM) told he will do.. new votes! Unfortunetly AV forget already what he promised.. or he bends it other way round... the circumstances dont allow him to do so at the moment.. haha

And all bad things happen and everyone get in jail or get's in conflict with the law is always red shirt and got order from K'Thaksin.. I just wonder what BKPost and Nation will write when the Thaksin Storys are over.. You forget to write that the YELLOW REVOLUTION just stopped when they reached ther goal ... How long did they occupy the Govermenthouse and Airport....

SORRY i forgot you told here is a treat about the reds..

[fxe1200]

Not sure if this thread is still valid. It sure is long.

You indicate that 'Red' and 'yellow' are simplistic and shallow in defining the political divide, and then you tell me that I am committing the same error by defining the political divide as "pro-democracy' vs. 'anti-democracy'

At least Brahmburger, I place the two sides into a political context. You must agree that group affinity colors say nothing.

My point, that is exactly what the anti-democracy people want - to say nothing. They dont want the international community, or anyone else for that matter, to think there is a struggle for democracy in Thailand.

You will notice they have low-keyed the 70-30 concept completely. As long as people focus on colors, and not 70-30 vs. one-person-one-vote electoral politics, gives them the space to strategize toward their goals.

So Brahmburger, how would you, or others on this board identify this political divide......The elite vs. the egalitarian, the paternalistic vs. the electoral?

Any sincere attempt at defining the political divide into a political context would be great for future discussions. Anything to get away from hiding political realities behind simplistic and shallow color descriptors would be an improvement.

As long as one can avoid diverting into anti-Thaksin hatred diatribes that is the only political commentary many on this board are capable of, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus on defining terminology.

My contribution is the pro-democracy movement-PDM (in favor of one-person-one-vote elections) VS. the anti-democracy movement-ADM (the advocates of a paternalistic 70-30 concept). That may not be a perfect dichotomy, but I think it comes close.

Just to get this clear Maiya, if you ask any red-shirted farmer, (which most of them are) what is so great about Thaksin, you'll see the answer will mostly be something like : He cared about, us! How? He gave us money!

So there you have your "struggle for democracy", people simply fell for the populism of 1 million per Moo Ban, 30 Baht Health care skeem (scam), aso. The main thing is the million, they want this million more than everything else, democracy, come on, who gives a dam_n?

Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant to realise that this money didn't come out of the pocket of their "beloved PM" but out of their own pockets. So all in all it's just populism, which the less educated and political-economical knowlegeable people fall for so easy.

There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in such a hurry privatising the hel_l out of thailand. And there we come again to the point that some educated people around realised, that without stopping him at that point, half of the country would be in foreign hands. and I'm not talking about hotels in phuket, I'm talking about railways, TOT, electricity board, and many more.

I know some years have passed, but don't forget why people where digusted at the time. He was selling out his own country! (to make the poor farmers that wouldn't know what was going on in the first place, think he is throwing around millions out of generosity)

Get real! Most people in this whole pro-democracy movement, don't give much about democracy but they love their "elected PM" for the money, he seems to have so much of!

Maybe soon it will be "nung phet do moobaan" (one diamond per village) sounds good and would come cheaper!

So ... noithip

..:"He cared about, us! How? He gave us money..:" Whats wrong about that?? He gave many people HOPE and FOOD(and some future)! What you think if your grandmom lays on the street and gets no treatment.. because there is no one has a VISA Card..?? Ha.. to you. Medical help for the (poor&rich) people is important.. WHO gave before?? Do you know that daily about 28000 People die about hunger and no medical care?? Do you think it doesnt matter if there are some Thais too...???

... "Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant ..." I prefer thankfull and honest people.. why you gona go to write bad about people who did never get a chance for a better education? Do you think you are better just about your "better education"? What did you do for that education... ha... you just was lucky that your parents had enough money to pay for it - that NOT makes you a better human at all!! How can you know that all of them are ignorant... wasnt it ignorant to occupy Suvarnabhumi and let hundred thousands stranded (and the same amount Thai workers Jobless meanwhile..)

...There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there... very simple QUESTION to YOU... easy to answer and i wonder you are educated enough to do so: HOW many billions of bath open debt THAILAND had when Dr.Thaksin came to power?? Who was PM before k'Thaksin, and just give me 2-3 samples of what THEY did good for the country.. ok??

... He was selling out his own country! ... can you give some samples please???

and finally... if someone can write about "the uneducated (means dump) people" no need democratic rights it is a very sad story! I mean they need the right for better education and the right to vote as they are Thai people like the rich and the richest, thats democratic!

How high is the value, the farmers produce for Thailand, how high is the income out of farmers products? You know the main income is coming from Tourism Industry... do you know who works in that industry(and Car,Machine,fabrics etc..).. roommates, waitresses, bellboys, cookhelps, cleaning, mechanics, ..... again most of them are the children of the (poorer, less educated) country region people you like to discredit so much... yes may be you was one of the "nung pet for all rich elites a year" and under TRT that money has gone to the poor.. thats right

...any body willing to give an answer to all these questions? I am not. The lack of information and some understanding of the functioning of the Thai society should not be made an issue for Thaivisa. I believe, that all those living inThailand for years, and ar able to give comprehensible comments are welcome. But starting from nil???? I'd rather have Thaivisa being a forum to address issues in a way and manner everybody can understand, provided there is some knowledge about the Thai history and present appearance and the acting of the governing bodies..

[Insight]

OOOOOOOHhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Did anybody else get much further than this?

[Moonrakers]

OOOOOOOHhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Did anybody else get much further than this?

I did, for my sins.

To summarise: He COMPLETELY missed the point. Nothing else top add really.

[animatic]

OOOOOOOHhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Did anybody else get much further than this?

Did seem rather orgasmic, bordering or ecstasy.. or maybe too much Extacy.

Another shoot the messenger tactician, not more reason to follow on.

Re-explaining the obvious repeatedly isn't so much a pleasure,

but occasionally a duty.

[Ricardo]

@animatic

ooohh you seem to know everything... if i read your posts.. what you say to someone posted 7 times... ? Do you know that it is QUALITY whats counts, not quantity??

I post in a few other sites.. no need to post much, but write the truth! Who told you the reds want a REVOLUTION?? I wonder..!! (Answer please with a name.. not just YOUR hypothesis..) They clear want what AV(PM) told he will do.. new votes! Unfortunetly AV forget already what he promised.. or he bends it other way round... the circumstances dont allow him to do so at the moment.. haha

And all bad things happen and everyone get in jail or get's in conflict with the law is always red shirt and got order from K'Thaksin.. I just wonder what BKPost and Nation will write when the Thaksin Storys are over.. You forget to write that the YELLOW REVOLUTION just stopped when they reached ther goal ... How long did they occupy the Govermenthouse and Airport....

SORRY i forgot you told here is a treat about the reds..

Does anyone have any idea, what this Newbie is trying to say, I find his/her English very hard to follow ?

[brahmburgers]

reds knew their government would be back in power after the coup.

BB's note: the Red Shirts didn't exist as a movement until many months after the coup.

Just a quick recap:

There were plenty of regular protests after the coup, it was so hated that sometimes even 300 people would show up. On the biggest Consitution day rally there were easily 5,000. There was no color designation at that time yet.

Red movement started with a massive rally at Sanam Luang in 2007, with Thaksin's first phone in. It wasn't long before when reds tried to storm Prem's residence leaving two hundred policemen injured. When PPP formed the government after teh elections they dissipated.

Then, in 2008, when PAD held their first seminar, indoor, I might add, red movement came back. They threw bottles and plastic bags with urine and excrements at PAD buses, and one proud red displayed his genitalia to express his outrage at other people holding their meetings.

As PAD protests grew pro-Thaksin forces realised that they need to counteract them with their own "mass-movement" to take control of the streets. People were mobilised from all over the country. That eventually led to a drunken red mob, armed with machetes and clubs, storming smaller and less protected PAD camp in the middle of the night. PAD guards quickly regrouped and beat them back. One attacker lost his life.

After that PAD rallies were attacked all throughout the country, most notably Udon Lovers mob severely beating about a dozen PAD members unconsicous while they were preparing their rally. The stage was completely destroyed, and they used Thai flagpoles, among other weapons. The leader was offering monetary rewards to anyone who could kill a PAD leader. He was on the PPP govt payroll at that time.

After a spate of such attacks PAD leadership was forced to concentrate in Bangkok and give up on holding any meetings upcountry. Red power was rising.

In Bangkok red leaders held training camps where they taught their foot soldiers to use weapons and throw grenades. Shortly after that PAD camps were bombed almost nightly. Our resident red, Koo, was saying that if PAD refused to obey by Red demands, bombing them into submission was the right thing to do.

Then late in 2008, Reds had an image makeover with highly publicized and peaceful rally at Hua Mark that featured Thaksin's video appearance (or phone in, I don't remember). From that point on reds started telling everyone how peaceful they were and that lasted until Songkran mayhem.

Thanks Plus, for the realistic historical recap. I mean that sincerely, not in jest. It helps for people who are commenting on Thailand's roller coaster political ride to have some sense of what's transpired in the past several years, regardless of their interpretations.

The Reds didn't start demonstrating until they saw how effective the Yellow Shirts were at their demonstrations (the Yellows were instrumental in driving out two PM's and one caretaker PM). Theoretically, T's second stand in, Somchai, would have been ousted regardless of whether the Yellows closed down the airport, as Somchai would still have been found guilty of being a party to election fraud.

The Internal Security act doesn't outlaw red rallies

BB adds .....if they're peaceful.

That is my take on it as well. The bottom line is that the leaders of the Reds were not able to draw the numbers they had hoped and instead of embarrassing themselves, they canceled the protest and blamed the government to save face.

In a nutshell. Well said.

Let's hope T fades away sooner rather than later, so Thais can bind again peaceably (get it? .....'the ties that bind') and not digress to becoming the Thaitanic hitting the iceberg of Red intransigence.

Seriously though, Red Shirt leaders appear to be getting more shrill and more vindictive with each passing week, as we approach the verdict for whether to deep freeze T's assets. It's no mystery who's paying them, and who's the main whiner who's whipping them up to pull out all the stops - including using dirty tricks (doctored audio) to try and topple the current PM.

Thais in general can breathe a collective sigh on relief when T finally fades from politics, as he's declared he would do months ago.

[Richard W]

I know how bad Thaksin is. You're preaching to the converted here. Same as Samak who followed him. Utter turd. What's truly "simple minded" is the people on this forum who consider military coups, firing somebody for hosting a bloody cooking show and taking over an airport to be acceptable forms of democracy as opposed to the party actually voted in (you know, with a silly thing democratic thing by winning an election) being allowed to stay.

I remember a lady explaining to me on the day of the election after Suchinda's coup, 'Today we have democracy'. That is one of the problems - there's more to (liberal) democracy than elections.

And in point of fact, no party won the 2007 election, and the largest but non-majority party has no right to be allowed to stay as part of the ruling coalition. Parliament also has the right to dismiss a prime minister, and does not need to establish just cause, unlike elective monarchies (e.g. the USA). Parliament could have made Samak's dismissal a mere formality - it chose not to. And, actually, a rump of the PPP has remained in the ruling coalition - the rump is now relabelled as Phum Jai Thai.

[Bukseeda]

Not sure if this thread is still valid. It sure is long.

You indicate that 'Red' and 'yellow' are simplistic and shallow in defining the political divide, and then you tell me that I am committing the same error by defining the political divide as "pro-democracy' vs. 'anti-democracy'

At least Brahmburger, I place the two sides into a political context. You must agree that group affinity colors say nothing.

My point, that is exactly what the anti-democracy people want - to say nothing. They dont want the international community, or anyone else for that matter, to think there is a struggle for democracy in Thailand.

You will notice they have low-keyed the 70-30 concept completely. As long as people focus on colors, and not 70-30 vs. one-person-one-vote electoral politics, gives them the space to strategize toward their goals.

So Brahmburger, how would you, or others on this board identify this political divide......The elite vs. the egalitarian, the paternalistic vs. the electoral?

Any sincere attempt at defining the political divide into a political context would be great for future discussions. Anything to get away from hiding political realities behind simplistic and shallow color descriptors would be an improvement.

As long as one can avoid diverting into anti-Thaksin hatred diatribes that is the only political commentary many on this board are capable of, it would be nice to reach some sort of consensus on defining terminology.

My contribution is the pro-democracy movement-PDM (in favor of one-person-one-vote elections) VS. the anti-democracy movement-ADM (the advocates of a paternalistic 70-30 concept). That may not be a perfect dichotomy, but I think it comes close.

Just to get this clear Maiya, if you ask any red-shirted farmer, (which most of them are) what is so great about Thaksin, you'll see the answer will mostly be something like : He cared about, us! How? He gave us money!

So there you have your "struggle for democracy", people simply fell for the populism of 1 million per Moo Ban, 30 Baht Health care skeem (scam), aso. The main thing is the million, they want this million more than everything else, democracy, come on, who gives a dam_n?

Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant to realise that this money didn't come out of the pocket of their "beloved PM" but out of their own pockets. So all in all it's just populism, which the less educated and political-economical knowlegeable people fall for so easy.

There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there. Otherwise he wouldn't have been in such a hurry privatising the hel_l out of thailand. And there we come again to the point that some educated people around realised, that without stopping him at that point, half of the country would be in foreign hands. and I'm not talking about hotels in phuket, I'm talking about railways, TOT, electricity board, and many more.

I know some years have passed, but don't forget why people where digusted at the time. He was selling out his own country! (to make the poor farmers that wouldn't know what was going on in the first place, think he is throwing around millions out of generosity)

Get real! Most people in this whole pro-democracy movement, don't give much about democracy but they love their "elected PM" for the money, he seems to have so much of!

Maybe soon it will be "nung phet do moobaan" (one diamond per village) sounds good and would come cheaper!

So ... noithip

..:"He cared about, us! How? He gave us money..:" Whats wrong about that?? He gave many people HOPE and FOOD(and some future)! What you think if your grandmom lays on the street and gets no treatment.. because there is no one has a VISA Card..?? Ha.. to you. Medical help for the (poor&rich) people is important.. WHO gave before?? Do you know that daily about 28000 People die about hunger and no medical care?? Do you think it doesnt matter if there are some Thais too...???

... "Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant ..." I prefer thankfull and honest people.. why you gona go to write bad about people who did never get a chance for a better education? Do you think you are better just about your "better education"? What did you do for that education... ha... you just was lucky that your parents had enough money to pay for it - that NOT makes you a better human at all!! How can you know that all of them are ignorant... wasnt it ignorant to occupy Suvarnabhumi and let hundred thousands stranded (and the same amount Thai workers Jobless meanwhile..)

...There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there... very simple QUESTION to YOU... easy to answer and i wonder you are educated enough to do so: HOW many billions of bath open debt THAILAND had when Dr.Thaksin came to power?? Who was PM before k'Thaksin, and just give me 2-3 samples of what THEY did good for the country.. ok??

... He was selling out his own country! ... can you give some samples please???

and finally... if someone can write about "the uneducated (means dump) people" no need democratic rights it is a very sad story! I mean they need the right for better education and the right to vote as they are Thai people like the rich and the richest, thats democratic!

How high is the value, the farmers produce for Thailand, how high is the income out of farmers products? You know the main income is coming from Tourism Industry... do you know who works in that industry(and Car,Machine,fabrics etc..).. roommates, waitresses, bellboys, cookhelps, cleaning, mechanics, ..... again most of them are the children of the (poorer, less educated) country region people you like to discredit so much... yes may be you was one of the "nung pet for all rich elites a year" and under TRT that money has gone to the poor.. thats right

Thank you for providing some historical perspective Hardy99.

I wish there were more Thai people on this board who could provide similar pre-Thaksin, Thaksin and post-Thaksin data.

That would confuse the Farangs very much.

With no historical perspective beyond several years at most, they don't know, what they don't know!

I'll invite my Thai fiancee to post here. I think you'll find she has an entirely different perspective than Hardy99. And before anyone asks, she's anti-PAD and anti-Thaksin.

[Datsun240Z]

I just hope Thailand will become a true democratic country in the near future, and foreigners have equal rights, as Thais.

[madi]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor, it is comical seeing so many of the posts here by Farang which appear to be in support of the filthy rich.

Here is what I seem to hear from many posts.

Thai poor in red shirts do not need democracy.

They are happy--after all we hear them singing.

If the red group wins an election it is of course because of bought votes.

Now a logical person seeing that the yellow side has most of the money might wonder about vote buying. I mean if the yellow has the huge money behind it and votes are so easy to buy, why is it they are losing the elections? is it because the yellow group does not offer to buy votes? HAAAA HAAAAA--That is so funny. of course they buy votes and still they lose elections.

So Not all people are so easy to buy as what is said by the yellow.

If Thai people were so happy with the ruling rich yellow--why is it they vote for red even after the leader is gone?

The poor people in Thailand are being raped by the rich and we have brain-dead farang here defending the yellow.

The Farang in Thailand must be from the uneducated of their nations.

No people with any reading would say the nonsense these dim-rads say her.

Oh well--it is a Thai problem.

Thai people will settle it.

But the stupidity I read here from right-wing morons is comical.

[brahmburgers]

I just hope Thailand will become a true democratic country in the near future, and foreigners have equal rights, as Thais.

Farang won't ever have equal rights with Thais, but it would be refreshing to see the laws adjusted so that farang have roughly the same rights in Thailand as Thais have in farang lands.

One of the big ironies with T is, though he tightened already restrictive farang rights in Thailand, ....now that he's prancing all over the world, he can enjoy much more freedoms in foreign countries than his mother country afford to farang. He can own property, buy and operate businesses, own vehicles, etc etc. Heck, he can even get passports from overseas countries, whereas a farang in Thailand have less chance than a moth in hel_l. And there's still a significant proportion of families who were born and raised in Thailand who have no citizenship nor hope for even a hill tribe ID card. They are the discarded masses, ignored by the elite, by the Reds, by the Yellows and nearly all other Thais. The selfishness and 'mai pen rai' attitude here knows no bounds, and T exacerbated that mindset by his ultra-selfish deeds.

[webfact]

PM may lift ISA deadline

By The Nation

Published on August 31, 2009

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said he will consider today whether to lift enforcement of the Internal Security Act (ISA) in Bangkok before its deadline tomorrow.

Speaking on his weekly TV programme, Abhisit said it would be clear today whether the ISA enforcement could be lifted a day earlier.

The government announced the enforcement of the ISA in Dusit district from Saturday to Tuesday after the red-shirt movement planned a mass rally outside Government House for yesterday.

But on Saturday, the movement announced the postponement of the rally to September 5 to avoid the ISA enforcement.

Pheu Thai Party spokesman Prompong Nopparit yesterday called on the government to lift the security restrictions now that the rally had been postponed.

He said the lifting of the enforcement would restore foreigners' and Thais' confidence and would bring about reconciliation.

Abhisit insisted yesterday the enforcement of the ISA would not affect people's rights.

Unlike an emergency decree, which is announced when the country is under an emergency situation, the ISA is enforced to prevent untoward incidents, Abhisit said.

The prime minister added he had assigned the national police chief to talk to red-shirt leaders to avoid doing anything that could lead to violence or clashes.

Abhisit said the government could not allow the protesters to besiege Government House.

Meanwhile, Suan Dusit Polls announced yesterday its survey had found most people saw the postponement of the rally as political manoeuvring aimed at countering the government following the ISA enforcement.

Suan Dusit posed an open question about how people felt towards the postponement of the rally, and each respondent could give more than one answer.

The poll found 52.48 per cent of respondents regarded the postponement as a countermeasure against ISA enforcement.

It said 31.40 per cent of respondents believed the rally was postponed because the reds shirts feared it would not be safe for the demonstrators.

It said 27.59 per cent of respondents were still worried, despite the postponement, while 23.28 per cent said they felt relieved.

Also yesterday, Assumption University's Abac Pollster found the Thais' Gross Domestic Happiness index this month had risen compared to earlier months.

Dr Noppadol Kannikar, director of the Abac Poll, said the GDH index in August rose to 7.18 from 5.92 in July.

The Abac Poll surveyed 1,292 families on Saturday in 17 provinces, including Bangkok, Uttaradit, Chiang Mai, Phetchaburi, Kanchanaburi, Si Sa Ket, Khon Kaen, Ranong and Surat Thani.

-- The Nation 2009/08/31

[Plus]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor..

For one thing, I believe the wealth gap in Thailand is far less than the numbers given here.

If a mature democracy like the US can't fix these things for their citizens, why expect that Thailand could? Especially if it follows the US economic model.

And about that other stuff - reds are poor, misguided folks fighting to return stolen fortune to the richest man in the land who probably widened the income gap when he was in power.

[laukra]

The red shirt party lost the Surat Thani by-election yesterday by a vote count of 122,032 votes to the winning Democrat and 24,624 for their man.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2297...urat-thani-seat

[madi]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor..

For one thing, I believe the wealth gap in Thailand is far less than the numbers given here.

If a mature democracy like the US can't fix these things for their citizens, why expect that Thailand could? Especially if it follows the US economic model.

And about that other stuff - reds are poor, misguided folks fighting to return stolen fortune to the richest man in the land who probably widened the income gap when he was in power.

You believe? HAAA HAAA

You know better than that.

Poor people in Thailand in the countrysides make 2000 baht a month or less. That is over 25% of the population living like that..

That is about 60 dollars or 45 Euros a month.

I know you KNOW the numbers. So why spew the nonsense? Are you afraid of this message board? HAAA HAAA

This place has no power. So let up on the propaganda. Or not--it is funny.

Here are the city people and what they make and they too are treated like dirt by the rich of Thailand.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/thailand.shtml

[animatic]

@animatic

ooohh you seem to know everything... if i read your posts.. what you say to someone posted 7 times... ? Do you know that it is QUALITY whats counts, not quantity??

I post in a few other sites.. no need to post much, but write the truth! Who told you the reds want a REVOLUTION?? I wonder..!! (Answer please with a name.. not just YOUR hypothesis..) They clear want what AV(PM) told he will do.. new votes! Unfortunetly AV forget already what he promised.. or he bends it other way round... the circumstances dont allow him to do so at the moment.. haha

And all bad things happen and everyone get in jail or get's in conflict with the law is always red shirt and got order from K'Thaksin.. I just wonder what BKPost and Nation will write when the Thaksin Storys are over.. You forget to write that the YELLOW REVOLUTION just stopped when they reached ther goal ... How long did they occupy the Govermenthouse and Airport....

SORRY i forgot you told here is a treat about the reds..

Does anyone have any idea, what this Newbie is trying to say, I find his/her English very hard to follow ?

My guess is he is angry with me for being clear and concise, and wrong in his view.

Of course he also seems to be mixing up several threads,

and misconstrues logical hypothesis, for actual stated fact...

And much I can't tease a meaning from...

At least he's reading them. Probably through gritted teeth, Oh well.

[webfact]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor..

For one thing, I believe the wealth gap in Thailand is far less than the numbers given here.

If a mature democracy like the US can't fix these things for their citizens, why expect that Thailand could? Especially if it follows the US economic model.

And about that other stuff - reds are poor, misguided folks fighting to return stolen fortune to the richest man in the land who probably widened the income gap when he was in power.

just a remark to the "richest" man, He was/is not the richest man in Thailand. There are others with a greater fortune!

[Insight]

Can we encourage all people to post in a style that puts them outside the adolescent age brackets (preferably older)?

Reading the sarcastic "ooohhhs" and "haaas" makes for seriously nauseating reading and completely devalues any argument the person is attempting to make.

Obviously this applies to both sides of the fence.

[madi]

@animatic

ooohh you seem to know everything... if i read your posts.. what you say to someone posted 7 times... ? Do you know that it is QUALITY whats counts, not quantity??

I post in a few other sites.. no need to post much, but write the truth! Who told you the reds want a REVOLUTION?? I wonder..!! (Answer please with a name.. not just YOUR hypothesis..) They clear want what AV(PM) told he will do.. new votes! Unfortunately AV forget already what he promised.. or he bends it other way round... the circumstances don't allow him to do so at the moment.. haha

And all bad things happen and everyone get in jail or get's in conflict with the law is always red shirt and got order from K'Thaksin.. I just wonder what BKPost and Nation will write when the Thaksin Storys are over.. You forget to write that the YELLOW REVOLUTION just stopped when they reached their goal ... How long did they occupy the Government house and Airport....

SORRY i forgot you told here is a treat about the reds..

Does anyone have any idea, what this Newbie is trying to say, I find his/her English very hard to follow ?

My guess is he is angry with me for being clear and concise, and wrong in his view.

Of course he also seems to be mixing up several threads,

and misconstrues logical hypothesis, for actual stated fact...

And much I can't tease a meaning from...

At least he's reading them. Probably through gritted teeth, Oh well.

My guess is that you do not want to argue his points and so are just attacking him with some childish remarks.

Did it ever occur to you that most people in Thailand are not born rich and therefore should not be expected to be even nearly as good with English as was he in his post.

By the way--I understood his point.

Anyone who could not understand it is certainly nearly illiterate with their English reading abilities.

These points I am about to make are irrefutable.

Thailand is NOT a democratic nation.

Why? Because the ruler is not elected.

End of story.

You agree?

If you do not you are in need of some education.

[Maiya]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor, it is comical seeing so many of the posts here by Farang which appear to be in support of the filthy rich.

Here is what I seem to hear from many posts.

Thai poor in red shirts do not need democracy.

They are happy--after all we hear them singing.

If the red group wins an election it is of course because of bought votes.

Now a logical person seeing that the yellow side has most of the money might wonder about vote buying. I mean if the yellow has the huge money behind it and votes are so easy to buy, why is it they are losing the elections? is it because the yellow group does not offer to buy votes? HAAAA HAAAAA--That is so funny. of course they buy votes and still they lose elections.

So Not all people are so easy to buy as what is said by the yellow.

If Thai people were so happy with the ruling rich yellow--why is it they vote for red even after the leader is gone?

The poor people in Thailand are being raped by the rich and we have brain-dead farang here defending the yellow.

The Farang in Thailand must be from the uneducated of their nations.

No people with any reading would say the nonsense these dim-rads say her.

Oh well--it is a Thai problem.

Thai people will settle it.

But the stupidity I read here from right-wing morons is comical.

Wow Madi....What an excellent post. The best I have seen on this board I think. A great summation!

Too bad it is at the end of such a long thread, that many Farangs may not be reading anymore.

Yet they need to read your post.

Continue your vein of thought and insight to other posts more often.

Unfortunately, their knee-jerk reaction to insightful posts like yours are to immediately avoid the lessons it provides them by launching into their comfort zone - anti-Thaksin diatribes. I truly believe those are avoidance techniques so they dont need to question the immutable opinions they have formed after being subjected to a steady stream of English Language media influence which has conditioned them. To leave them, and begin to discuss alternatives that have no depth of English media implantation, is uncomfortable....So the easiest thing is to revert into anti-Thaksin diatribes.

Watch the next few posts and see if I am correct.

Your focus on the politics of the whole thing is also refreshing, instead of personalities.

I have lately been trying to have readers consider getting away from the color focus of describing the political divide.

Even though this board is obviously filled with politically minded individuals, I have been unable to get them to discuss the two sides in a political context. Affinity clothing colors certainly are not politically contextual. It is also my contention, that by focusing exclusively on this color thing, it serves the purposes of one side of this political divide. The anti-democratic forces don't want it generally known that they exist. By using non-political descriptive terminology such as affinity clothing colors, gives them the necessary cover.

[Siripon]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor..

For one thing, I believe the wealth gap in Thailand is far less than the numbers given here.

If a mature democracy like the US can't fix these things for their citizens, why expect that Thailand could? Especially if it follows the US economic model.

And about that other stuff - reds are poor, misguided folks fighting to return stolen fortune to the richest man in the land who probably widened the income gap when he was in power.

You believe? HAAA HAAA

You know better than that.

Poor people in Thailand in the countrysides make 2000 baht a month or less. That is over 25% of the population living like that..

That is about 60 dollars or 45 Euros a month.

I know you KNOW the numbers. So why spew the nonsense? Are you afraid of this message board? HAAA HAAA

This place has no power. So let up on the propaganda. Or not--it is funny.

Here are the city people and what they make and they too are treated like dirt by the rich of Thailand.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/thailand.shtml

People upcountry make little because they are small farm holders and it's hard to make money farming, especially on a small scale.

But most families have members sending money home from the cities or abroad. Nearly all young people leave at some point as there's so little money to be made at home; but if you know upcountry you will know motorbikes are everywhere, as are TVs and DVDs, and in many ways people have a lot better life than in the cities with space and fresh air.

In addition they can live on less, no rent, free water, rice and vegetables. Fish, frogs, shells are all free also from June to December for the able bodied. The main expense is school children- money for reports, extra activities, boy scouts uniforms, etc.

Don't judge the happiness of people by only financial figures, there's a lot more to quality of life than that.

[Maiya]

@animatic

ooohh you seem to know everything... if i read your posts.. what you say to someone posted 7 times... ? Do you know that it is QUALITY whats counts, not quantity??

I post in a few other sites.. no need to post much, but write the truth! Who told you the reds want a REVOLUTION?? I wonder..!! (Answer please with a name.. not just YOUR hypothesis..) They clear want what AV(PM) told he will do.. new votes! Unfortunately AV forget already what he promised.. or he bends it other way round... the circumstances don't allow him to do so at the moment.. haha

And all bad things happen and everyone get in jail or get's in conflict with the law is always red shirt and got order from K'Thaksin.. I just wonder what BKPost and Nation will write when the Thaksin Storys are over.. You forget to write that the YELLOW REVOLUTION just stopped when they reached their goal ... How long did they occupy the Government house and Airport....

SORRY i forgot you told here is a treat about the reds..

Does anyone have any idea, what this Newbie is trying to say, I find his/her English very hard to follow ?

My guess is he is angry with me for being clear and concise, and wrong in his view.

Of course he also seems to be mixing up several threads,

and misconstrues logical hypothesis, for actual stated fact...

And much I can't tease a meaning from...

At least he's reading them. Probably through gritted teeth, Oh well.

My guess is that you do not want to argue his points and so are just attacking him with some childish remarks.

Did it ever occur to you that most people in Thailand are not born rich and therefore should not be expected to be even nearly as good with English as was he in his post.

By the way--I understood his point.

Anyone who could not understand it is certainly nearly illiterate with their English reading abilities.

These points I am about to make are irrefutable.

Thailand is NOT a democratic nation.

Why? Because the ruler is not elected.

End of story.

You agree?

If you do not you are in need of some education.

Good for you Madi.

Wow, I found a political soulmate

You have said it better than I could ever have

[Plus]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor..

For one thing, I believe the wealth gap in Thailand is far less than the numbers given here.

If a mature democracy like the US can't fix these things for their citizens, why expect that Thailand could? Especially if it follows the US economic model.

And about that other stuff - reds are poor, misguided folks fighting to return stolen fortune to the richest man in the land who probably widened the income gap when he was in power.

You believe? HAAA HAAA

You know better than that.

During Thaksin rule the rich got a lot richer, increasing their wealth at a faster speed than the poor. It's true that poor people benefited from his policies and that led to their increased spending, but much of it was financed by borrowing or various handouts like debt suspension etc.

Here is a link to old Bangkok Post article on growing income gap, from 2003, the best years of Thaksinomics:

http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/soc.cultu...i/msg00402.html

And here is a link analysing income growth among the poor:

http://reallifethailand.blogspot.com/2007/...ps-and-pad.html

It would take me some time to find income gap numbers expressed in way similar to what you offered about the US - ie how much wealth is concentrated in the hands of each segment of the population, but I believe that it's not as shocking as you expect.

Income gap has been closing in post-Thaksin years according to NESDB statistics, btw.

My main point - the popular argument about Thaksin closing income distribution is a myth.

>>>

Webfact, his family was the richest in Thailand at one point, but that is a bit of nitpicking, even if it was only in top five - it's still ironic that hordes of poor peasants are leaving their fields to save him his loot.

[hammered]

The Distribution of Wealth in America 2009

Data suggests that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%.

Now given that it is far worse in Thailand's for the poor..

For one thing, I believe the wealth gap in Thailand is far less than the numbers given here.

If a mature democracy like the US can't fix these things for their citizens, why expect that Thailand could? Especially if it follows the US economic model.

And about that other stuff - reds are poor, misguided folks fighting to return stolen fortune to the richest man in the land who probably widened the income gap when he was in power.

You believe? HAAA HAAA

You know better than that.

Poor people in Thailand in the countrysides make 2000 baht a month or less. That is over 25% of the population living like that..

That is about 60 dollars or 45 Euros a month.

I know you KNOW the numbers. So why spew the nonsense? Are you afraid of this message board? HAAA HAAA

This place has no power. So let up on the propaganda. Or not--it is funny.

Here are the city people and what they make and they too are treated like dirt by the rich of Thailand.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/thailand.shtml

People upcountry make little because they are small farm holders and it's hard to make money farming, especially on a small scale.

But most families have members sending money home from the cities or abroad. Nearly all young people leave at some point as there's so little money to be made at home; but if you know upcountry you will know motorbikes are everywhere, as are TVs and DVDs, and in many ways people have a lot better life than in the cities with space and fresh air.

In addition they can live on less, no rent, free water, rice and vegetables. Fish, frogs, shells are all free also from June to December for the able bodied. The main expense is school children- money for reports, extra activities, boy scouts uniforms, etc.

Don't judge the happiness of people by only financial figures, there's a lot more to quality of life than that.

I doubt many posters on here have any idea about how the upcountry people live or the poor urban workers for that matter. I doubt many have spent much time living in the villages in a modest farmers home. Unfortunatley the same can be siad of most polticians, media characters etc. For their perspective you need to talk to them and to appreaciate it at least spend some time in their communties and to get them to tell you what they really think you need their trust and that takes time effort. Unless of course you actually are from one of the areas and I understand that you are Siriporn so I always value your comments on these things.

Just my opinion.

[Wuffy]

People upcountry make little because they are small farm holders and it's hard to make money farming, especially on a small scale.

But most families have members sending money home from the cities or abroad. Nearly all young people leave at some point as there's so little money to be made at home; but if you know upcountry you will know motorbikes are everywhere, as are TVs and DVDs, and in many ways people have a lot better life than in the cities with space and fresh air.

In addition they can live on less, no rent, free water, rice and vegetables. Fish, frogs, shells are all free also from June to December for the able bodied. The main expense is school children- money for reports, extra activities, boy scouts uniforms, etc.

Don't judge the happiness of people by only financial figures, there's a lot more to quality of life than that.

I doubt many posters on here have any idea about how the upcountry people live or the poor urban workers for that matter. I doubt many have spent much time living in the villages in a modest farmers home. Unfortunatley the same can be siad of most polticians, media characters etc. For their perspective you need to talk to them and to appreaciate it at least spend some time in their communties and to get them to tell you what they really think you need their trust and that takes time effort. Unless of course you actually are from one of the areas and I understand that you are Siriporn so I always value your comments on these things.

Just my opinion.

That is a very good point.

It applies to all 'democratic' countries.

Many politicians or people in power have more availble to them and better ways and means then most.

How can you expect fair and jsut policy from people who can dictacte where most everything go.

In a country known for it's corruption every suspects anyone with an office or seat in most large bureaucracies to line their pockets at one stage or another.

You ask someone with much personal wealth a budget to fly around and an account to tag various things as expenses then ask them to dictate policies for those with nothing in their pockets. Then some act surprised when the response is "If they don't have enough for themselves in the first place no need to give them anyhing."

One thing I want to ask is why everyone MUST polarize their arguments.

There are more then just two sides.

If one dislikes Thaksin that doesn't mean he thinks the guys before or after him are any better.

Saying one side is bad is not saying the other side is better.

Too many posters seem to rebut arguments by saying "Oh and you think this guy was better?"

the world is not black and white there's more then just two sides at play in any conflict.

Trying to reduce anything, much less politics, to side A and side B is just as bad as the old physics joke.

Physisist Visits a farm, trying to find a way to help the farmer increase his efficiency.

"I have a solution." He declares. "But it only applies to spherical chickens in a vaccum."

In the world we have today, with the technology and ability we have, we could go beyond simply voting for who we want to represent us, but also what they should be concerned about.

Why we still rely on the old system of handing over all the reins of power to single person is beyond me.

Edit: Quote cleanup

Edited August 31, 2009 by Wuffy

[Plus]

According to these numbers from Wiki Thailand's richest to poorest ratios are better than in the US for top/bottom 10% and 20%, though overall inequality index is higher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...income_equality

[noithip]

So ... noithip

..:"He cared about, us! How? He gave us money..:" Whats wrong about that?? He gave many people HOPE and FOOD(and some future)! What you think if your grandmom lays on the street and gets no treatment.. because there is no one has a VISA Card..?? Ha.. to you. Medical help for the (poor&rich) people is important.. WHO gave before?? Do you know that daily about 28000 People die about hunger and no medical care?? Do you think it doesnt matter if there are some Thais too...???

... "Thankfully people are too uneducated, and ignorant ..." I prefer thankfull and honest people.. why you gona go to write bad about people who did never get a chance for a better education? Do you think you are better just about your "better education"? What did you do for that education... ha... you just was lucky that your parents had enough money to pay for it - that NOT makes you a better human at all!! How can you know that all of them are ignorant... wasnt it ignorant to occupy Suvarnabhumi and let hundred thousands stranded (and the same amount Thai workers Jobless meanwhile..)

...There are endless examples how he was acting smart to win over people by spending money, which was not there... very simple QUESTION to YOU... easy to answer and i wonder you are educated enough to do so: HOW many billions of bath open debt THAILAND had when Dr.Thaksin came to power?? Who was PM before k'Thaksin, and just give me 2-3 samples of what THEY did good for the country.. ok??

... He was selling out his own country! ... can you give some samples please???

and finally... if someone can write about "the uneducated (means dump) people" no need democratic rights it is a very sad story! I mean they need the right for better education and the right to vote as they are Thai people like the rich and the richest, thats democratic!

How high is the value, the farmers produce for Thailand, how high is the income out of farmers products? You know the main income is coming from Tourism Industry... do you know who works in that industry(and Car,Machine,fabrics etc..).. roommates, waitresses, bellboys, cookhelps, cleaning, mechanics, ..... again most of them are the children of the (poorer, less educated) country region people you like to discredit so much... yes may be you was one of the "nung pet for all rich elites a year" and under TRT that money has gone to the poor.. thats right

Sorry Hardy, I think you are barking up the wrong tree! You will not be able to tell me how close to the people thaksin was, because he was not. He actually thought that what he was doing will work, but it didn't. He tried to make Thailand from a developing country to a developed country in 6 years. He said he will get rid of poverty build a house for every poor family, so many illusions he sold the people that it was hard to even follow. Sure not everythig was only bad, there where some improvements, but to tell me he was close to his people? Yeah, sure! I found an article from page 290 of the news-clippings, maybe you should start reading the threads from 5-6 years ago to get a perspective. I just had a look for the first time and instantly this jumped to my eyes:

BANGKOK: Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has announced that Thailand will stop accepting foreign aid from next year, saying the money should instead go towards poorer neighbouring countries.

He says the foreign ministry will thank all the donor countries who have helped Thailand.

The Prime Minister says aid should be spent on programs in its neighbours, which include military-ruled Burma, Laos and Cambodia.

Bangkok Post follow up on this issue:

PM: No more begging bowl for us

Renounces foreign aid from next year

BANGKOK: Thailand will stop seeking foreign aid from next year, Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra announced yesterday.

"Thailand freed itself from the International Monetary Fund in 2003. From 2004, we must not take assistance from any country. All ministries must bear in mind that they must not seek donations or ask for loans from abroad,'' Mr Thaksin said at the opening of a mobile cabinet meeting in Hua Hin.

"We already have a lot of money. We can even generate more if what we have is not enough. The Finance Ministry must have a clear strategy on revenue-making, taxation and put added value to assets.''

So looks like he was little far from reality after all, right? I see no point arguing with you, it's a waste of my time. Just to say the least I'm living in a village with 200 people, all farmers, there is <removed> all that improved here after Thaksin came to power, else from every family is in depts, they can't pay back (and this only helps the banks and rich moneylenders). My children went to public school, and my whole familiy has to face "bat thong" medical-care madness whenever someone gets sick. Most roads (and other infrastructure including temples) here where build with money from foreign development funds. Without the "King-projects" there would be much poverty, otherwise farmers depend on their garlic harvest. I think it was 2004 or 5 that Thaksin decided to import garlic from China (after signing the FTA), and the price for 1kg of garlic was 3 Baht, people were broke, very broke.

BTW where do you live, and how much do you actually know about rural life? Did education improve, did healthcare improve, did life really improve?

All this "development" was based on hypotetical money, and that's why it never really happend. (Anyway you saw what happened in the US of A last year?)

Edited August 31, 2009 by noithip