Living In China After Thailand

[ferd54]

After more than a decade in Thailand I took a job in Beijing about three years ago. I actually like it better in China. I have written up some of the differences for those who might be curious. For those who are not, I apologize for the length and suggest you read another topic.

Some pros and cons:

Public Transport:

Beijing transport is now top-class, with a subway, bus and taxi system that can rank with any of the best in the world. Bus and subway so cheap they are almost free. Taxis are everywhere, well-regulated and very affordable. Motorcycles are banned from the city. Traffic cameras everywhere, so no one runs red lights. Traffic is very bad at certain times and places, but nowhere near that of many Thai cities. There is actual enforcement, so tickets are issued and they bite hard enough to really hurt. If you want a car, many affordable options because China makes so many cars (it's actually the largest car market in the world now).

Noise:

Beijing is much more quiet. Large dogs are banned, and the one little dog permitted per family is so beloved it is never thrown out onto the street, so there are no packs of feral dogs barking and snarling at night. And while the Chinese are extremely loud people, I have never been disturbed at my home by a neighbor’s noise. No two-stroke bikes. They do honk the car horn excessively, unlike Thailand. Construction noise can be a problem, but that too is well-regulated so it doesn’t last all night, etc.

Girlfriend:

China’s one-child policy has resulted a generation of little princesses that are so self-absorbed that studies say many could meet the definition of pathological narcissism; they will freely tell you how cute, lovely, clever, etc. (all at once) they are, when they might be nothing of the sort, but they truly believe it. They have been thoroughly spoiled by two sets of grandparents and their own parents. Until they learn by hard experience, they expect that other people are there to serve them.

I met a girl much younger than me and we began dating, and she didn’t seem to realize that there were two people involved. After enough of her selfish behavior, I broke it off. A few months later we started seeing each other again – with me far more wary – and she seems to have changed. Now we have something closer to a normal give-and-take relationship. It’s just no one ever set boundaries for her before. The one-child policy has had a huge negative social impact, but maybe there was no choice given the population and relative poverty of the nation, especially when it was enacted.

That said, she is in many ways very reliable and conscientious. After so many years in Thailand I thought she was lying to me about how she spent her time, but when it all played out, I was wrong, but luckily I hadn’t really accused her of seeing another guy. I still have a hard time trusting people here after my years in Thailand and all the disappointing experiences I had trying to find trustworthy mates/friends.

(Incidentally, she is beautiful, and there indeed are a lot of beautiful women here. As well, they seemed to be better educated and hard-working).

I also have a couple of Chinese guys who are my friends and I like and respect them. I never came remotely close to having a Thai guy as my true friend.

Cost of living

Beijing is quite a bit more expensive than Thailand, but the pay and quality of life are far superior. On balance, a better deal.

Food

Thailand has it hands down. North Chinese cooking is just loaded with oil – in fact they call it “edible oil” and it is a significant ingredient in many dishes. You see old people hauling five-gallon containers of the stuff home all the time. But Thai food beats about any cuisine. The fresh vegetables in China are far superior and the beef as good as the U.S. I’ve basically gone back to a beef diet. Because this is a temperate climate, vegetables and fruit grow more slowly and seem much richer as a result. As well, parts of China have natural black soil as good as Canada, U.S. and the Ukraine.

Housing

My apartment in Beijing has central heating, air conditioning and hot water. Broadband internet is available everywhere. All appliances, etc. work fine and there has never been a power cut.

Weather

The work they did for the Olympics really did improve things greatly. BKK and Chiang Mai are far more polluted in my opinion. We are now going into the autumn season with cool nights and clear skies. In winter it can get damned cold, especially the wind howling in from Mongolia and Siberia, but I have found that I have far more energy and enjoy wearing heavy clothes (at least as the cold weather begins). It can get brutal, however, and one is thankful to see the first buds of spring. On balance, I think I prefer four seasons. In Thailand it’s hot, rainy and hot, and killer hot.

Police

No drunk policemen with guns here. In fact, one rarely sees a uniformed policeman, but I understand there are undercover police everywhere. Extremely safe place. Women go about their business at all times without much concern for personal safety. I’m too old for such nonsense, but I have heard that expat vs Chinese fights do occasionally happen in the Sanlitun area – the only place I’ve seen here that reminds me of the kind of tourist ghettos one sees in Thailand – between drunks. It seems a similar tale: 10 Chinese guys come to the aid of their friend. Only here, the foreigner is quickly deported and that’s the end of the story.

Government

Visa: Once you receive a visa you do not have to keep checking in. In my case I have a one-year working visa which required a medical check on blood, TB, blood pressure and basic heart EKG. Then you have to register with the police in the city district, then you’re done. You can also leave and re-enter without needing a re-entry stamp.

Of course one is well aware of the Big Brother approach to government, but in my life, the only real impact so far is the annoying habit of blocking internet sites. But most users – expat and Chinese – are proficient in using a proxy server and simply go around the firewall. I decided I wouldn’t try to tell the Chinese how to run China, so the fact there is no democracy hasn’t ruined my life. You who live in Thailand live with a government dominated by godfathers, the elite and all the rest that I can’t go into. Is that better than the Chinese approach? All this red, yellow and whatever shirt stuff started as I was leaving Thailand and I was very ready to bid it farewell.

Biggest upsides in China:

Infrastructure is vastly superior and much more opportunity. More reliable relationships.

Biggest downsides:

Far too many people, far too many people who are extremely loud, and a period of very cold weather.

[BSJ]

Hi Ferd, I have always though cute Chinese girl's where some of the best in Asia, but if they come with the icy chill of winter I'll pass thanks!

Edited August 30, 2009 by BSJ

[JR Texas]

Hi Ferd, I have always though cute Chinese girl's where some of the best in Asia, but if they come with the icy chill of winter I'll pass thanks!

Hi......glad you like China. I have been living there on and off for several years (also have a place in Thailand where I am currently spending most of my time) and know it well--both the north and south.

Your impressions are right on target.....at least from my perspective. Here is my take:

Public Transport:

Better than Thailand in some large cities, but can get bad in the hinterlands (same as Thailand).

Noise:

On balance, I would say most places are not as noisy as Thailand.

Girlfriend:

Some stunningly beautiful girls in China..........and light years smarter than the girls in Thailand (can say the same for Chinese people in general).

Cost of living:

It is very cheap to live in China in some places and expensive in others..........hard to compare which is better.

Food:

Completely disagree with you about the food.........I think there is no question that Chinese food is infinitely better than Thai food, and the variety of food is immense (also inexpensive).

Housing:

I think housing is the same.......concrete coffins for the most part (can find nice houses), but like you said the infrastructure seems better with almost no black outs.

Weather:

I love the weather in the north in particular.........it is nice to have the seasons change and not have to suffer intolerable heat every month of the year. I also like the different plants, more similar to what you see in the USA (also the mountains, ocean, etc., can be stunning in China).

Police:

About 1 million times better than the police in Thailand......treat foreigners with respect and you don't get the feeling that the Gestapo is watching you.

Government:

I have a problem with extreme authority, but I have never really felt it in China. The govt. in Thailand seems far more oppressive to me.

Visa:

Agree with you, the visa system is simple and sane. Thailand's system must be the worst on the planet.......stupid beyond imagination.

Biggest upsides in China:

Better infrastructure, more opportunity, sane business rules (not easy, just sane), smart people, far less violence, great food, nice people

Biggest downsides:

Too many people and BIG BROTHER........but as stated, I have never really had a problem with the latter.

Aside:

For expats who are looking for an alternative to Thailand-Titanic, there is a place adjacent to Macau that is sort of a retirement destination for well-to-do Chinese. It even has a small "walking street." It is on the ocean, has malls, all the Western food place, and lots of parks.......it is also an extremely clean city.......well managed. Now it is not too big; not too small, but it is growing (unfortunately).

[venturalaw]

Ferd and JR - very very interesting posts. You have provided much food for thought should everything go south (politically, financially, or otherwise) here in the LOS. Thanks for the info.

[ferd54]

Better than Thailand in some large cities, but can get bad in the hinterlands (same as Thailand).

Ya, I was careful to say Beijing in all of this. I think outside of BJ, Shanghai and a few other places, things go downhill in a hurry. Have to remember that however well China as a country looks to be doing in sheer numbers, its per capita income is still VERY low. Many places still have African levels of poverty.

[tropo]

Not my cup of tea. Fortunately if I decided to leave Thailand I have a far better option than China - my home countries - Australia or New Zealand.

I get the feeling the OP is trying to make the best out of a bad situation - his work commitments in China. I could be wrong, but it seems that way.

[hardy1943]

Ferd and JR - very very interesting posts. You have provided much food for thought should everything go south (politically, financially, or otherwise) here in the LOS. Thanks for the info.

Thank you both for your exellent post. I been here since 2003 have an excellent Thai wife, if not for her

I be any place else. Let face it Thai love Thai and we are walking ATM machines for THE BOYS IN BKK

[Mario2008]

1 post commenting moderation deleted.

[jackspratt]

I lived and worked in China (Beijing) for nearly 4 years, before I retired and came to live in Thailand. I completely support the OP's comments and observations.

If my relationship here was to go tits up, Beijing would be first on my list of places to live for the foreseeable future.

[moe666]

A friend just returned from a year in Inner Mongolia (part of China) he was happy to return home. The winter was very cold and corruption on the local level equal to or higher than Thailand.

His girlfriend was teaching at a local University there were a few of the problems. She was on a one year contract of about 1000 USD a month but if there was missed days of teaching because of the school no pay for those days, no teaching aids, and the adminstration very unhelpfull. On the good side food in town cheap and good lots of dumplings and noodles, people friendly but very few spoke english.

There was a great deal of corruption from government officials, the girl friend decided to bring her dog back. She had taken care of every thing except one piece of paper work and this was to allow the dog on the train without it the dog is off the train. The vet had said he would do it but never did, as the story developed the vet. knew he would be refused the permit because he had no pull with the official who must sign the permit. It seems that only the well connected and those who can pay get special permits from the various government. To make a long story short the girl friend grabbed one of her chinese friends and went to the office of the official needed and payed to get the permit the friend told her this would not have happened for a chinese.

Keep looking for paradise, I think it really is a state of mind.

[pnustedt]

China is a very diverse country, I have traveled much of it. In my experience, Beijing is far from typical China and the comparatively efficient infrastructure there is an exception.

[LaoPo]

Aside:

For expats who are looking for an alternative to Thailand-Titanic, there is a place adjacent to Macau that is sort of a retirement destination for well-to-do Chinese. It even has a small "walking street." It is on the ocean, has malls, all the Western food place, and lots of parks.......it is also an extremely clean city.......well managed. Now it is not too big; not too small, but it is growing (unfortunately).

Are you talking about Zhuhai ?

Thanks for the OP's message and I basically agree with most points although Beijing isn't "China", the same as New York isn't the USA or Sidney isn't Australia.

It's such a huge country with such a huge population and variety of landscapes, cultures and "kitchens" that it's virtually impossible to compare with any other country.

However, it's difficult to feel the same holiday feeling as one can have in Thailand; Thailand is much more laid back and has only a limited part where one can enjoy the beaches; in the south on Hainan island but even than it misses the same beach experience and beach-life as in LOS.

Most Chinese tourists don't even go to the beach during daytime because it's too hot and they don't want to get sunburned....they want to stay as white as possible

But China is a fascinating country, no doubt about that.

note:

Whilst writing and posting I noticed others made some comments as well. I think it's very easy to make positive or negative comments about China; it all depends on one's own experiences.

I've been coming and going into China for more than 30 years so I've seen some changes in those years and most for the better. What China has accomplished in those 30 years is unbelievable.

In those same years (even longer) I've also traveled through many countries in Europe, US and Canada, apart from other Far Eastern countries but there's no other example where changes were so dramatic as in China.

The point is that the country and distances are so huge that speaking about "China" is a bit odd; If one speaks/talks about Finland or Portugal, many say : "Oh but that's different because they're so apart" but it's just 2-3 hours by plane....whilst in China there are quite a few distances of 4-5 hours and you're still in the same country. Same-same as in Canada or Russia but less people....and less different cultures and kitchens and...Chinese

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

LOL! I think you just said what many silent viewers of this thread were thinking. Commenting on the beautiful Chinese women? Well they must certainly never leave their country because I'm lucky to see 1 in 100. In terms of beauty, this is the premier league. China is 1st division, but then it depends on your taste.

Is "this" (premier league) Thailand you're speaking of ? Well, I suppose you have been in Thailand a lot longer -in time- than China, am I correct ? Maybe you haven't seen and met the classy, stylish and stunningly beautiful Chinese women and girls yet ? Go East and North and you will gasp

It's indeed a question of taste...I wouldn't want to exchange my China Lady for any other woman in the world, not even a Thai girl, and..let me tell you; she's is very, very beautiful on the outside, but...that's just an extra and not even her most important qualification.

I've seen thousands of beautiful and pretty girls in Thailand but.....holy moly.....having a discussion with them is a pain. Having a discussion about normal world issues is a no-no.

LaoPo

[CarlBkk]

Then I must go East and North to investigate

I do agree with you about the intelligent conversation thing...it takes a little while in Thailand to find a stunner with intellect and little interest in wealth.

I remember from a previous discussion expats who've been posted around Asia seemed to agree that Korean women were the best lookers - another surprise for me. I guess without spending much time in these other countries you don't get to see the best fruit. Certainly the ones I've come across studying abroad, working abroad or holidaying abroad haven't been worth forming a positive aesthetic experience on.

[LaoPo]

Then I must go East and North to investigate

.

You're late...!

"There's a Chinese saying that goes "shang you tian tang, xia you su hang" - up there is heaven, down here is Suzhou and Hangzhou. The first Westerner to visit Hangzhou, Marco Polo, marveled at its beauty. At the end of the 13th century, he described Hangzhou as "the City of Heaven, the most beautiful and magnificent in the world."

My wife is from Hangzhou*

Hangzhou had already 1 million people back then and was a very clean city with a perfect sewage system; in those days London and Paris had a mere 20-30,000 people.

LaoPo

[cdnvic]

Offensive posts and replies have been deleted, Suggest keeping bigoted and derogatory comments to yourself.

[sokal]

How long is winter ? how low does the temp go ?

[LaoPo]

How long is winter ? how low does the temp go ?

here's a link for China and the various climate zones:

http://www.climate-zone.com/climate/china/ China, with map

this one is for Harbin in the North East:...pretty cold!

http://www.climate-zone.com/climate/china/...heit/harbin.htm Fahrenheit

http://www.climate-zone.com/climate/china/celsius/harbin.htm Celcius

LaoPo

[bcboy5440]

I find this an interesting topic as I have never been to LOS but have been wanting to for a number of years. I was in China this year for two months mainly in Dalian, Beijing and north east to three corners (where Russia, China, North Korea meet).

Regarding food I refer to my time there as the Chinese weight loss plan. The edible oil was more than my stomach could take, I found I got this low grade nausea about two weeks after being there and found I needed to try and find food with less oil, less salt, and no MSG. I was found there were Korean restaurants and they had far less oil and that was great. I have eaten at Thai restaurants in Canada, USA and China and really enjoyed the cooking.

Regarding the ladies, I was mainly in North eastern China and from what I saw I would not be able to support the suggestion that the North east is full of beautiful women. Perhaps that is personal taste but just my opinion.

I was impressed with Beijing as the OP suggested they really did clean up the place for the Olympics and they seem to have been able to maintain a level of cleanliness that I did not witness in other areas of Northeast China. One of the things I found I had to get used to was the amount of rubble, and overall griminess in some of the other areas we visited. I may be jaded as I was used to Canada. The air pollution is going to be something they are going to eventually have to deal with in China. I am not sure how long they will be able to get away with burning coal to the extent they do. I recall having to cut walks short because of the burning eyes and stinging in the lungs from the air pollution.

I would have to agree about the undercover police. You may not be confronted by them but you get the sense they are there. We could not prove it but often when we were out we had the feeling we were being watched.

Having said that I found in many of the places we visited the locals were friendly and curious about us. I really enjoyed how so many of the Chinese would spend hours playing music in the parks. They are also very exercise conscious as you will often find large groups doing Tai Chi, dancing or kicking the hacky sack feather birds to among a group of 2 to 6 people.

Public transit was good, and taxis were very inexpensive. We were often able to to travel one way (over one half hour) for 22 to 28 quay which would equal around 2.80 US dollars. The bus was 1 quay which equaled about 16 cents US. The buses could get very crowded but they were cheap transportation. We were also able to hire a private bus to transport 20 of us for all day for about 60 US dollars.

Mandarin was very hard for me. I had much less difficulty with Spanish and French. The tones and dialects are different through the country. I did feel better the other day as a Chinese fellow, living in Canada for 10 years, laughed and said to me Mandarin was very hard to learn and he indicated they had difficulty understanding each other. I think he was referring to the difference between the different dialects in the provinces.

Just my 2 cents on China

[perousing]

where do most westeners choose to stay in china ie retired persons

[LaoPo]

where do most westeners choose to stay in china ie retired persons

I don't think many westerners do unless married and living with their spouse and child(ren). We know of several people/Westerners living in Qingdao* on the coast (opposite South Korea more or less) but I think it will depend which part of China the spouse is from.

Maybe also on Hainan (Sanya), a tropical island in the south.

* Qingdao has a German history (also from the breweries).

LaoPo

[EndofDays]

...and the fact that they are communist......

or that the site of the Olympics was once housing for people who were forced out and had to watch as their homes were destroyed.

or the fact that pollution goes unchecked...

not saying I wouldn't want to visit there, but to live? Nah.

[LaoPo]

...and the fact that they are communist......

or that the site of the Olympics was once housing for people who were forced out and had to watch as their homes were destroyed.

or the fact that pollution goes unchecked...

not saying I wouldn't want to visit there, but to live? Nah.

If we're going down the track of bashing upon a country...there are so many countries we could bash upon that it would fill an entire forum.

Maybe you can start such a forum ? Please leave this one for normal behaviour, instead bashing, if you please.

LaoPo

[EndofDays]

...and the fact that they are communist......

or that the site of the Olympics was once housing for people who were forced out and had to watch as their homes were destroyed.

or the fact that pollution goes unchecked...

not saying I wouldn't want to visit there, but to live? Nah.

I have to disagree with the above post (the one that starts with ...and the fact)...if you like it then stay there. Every place is screwed-up or perfect depending on one's perspective. I can have very intelligent conversations with my Thai wife as she makes it her business to know what is going on in the world. Is her English perfect? No, but neither is mine. Too much generalization and I believe that EndODays is out of his gourd.

[EndofDays]

...and the fact that they are communist......

or that the site of the Olympics was once housing for people who were forced out and had to watch as their homes were destroyed.

or the fact that pollution goes unchecked...

not saying I wouldn't want to visit there, but to live? Nah.

If we're going down the track of bashing upon a country...there are so many countries we could bash upon that it would fill an entire forum.

Maybe you can start such a forum ? Please leave this one for normal behaviour, instead bashing, if you please.

LaoPo

What bashing, just saying that I couldn't live in a communist country, sheesh. Meow, retract the claws and don't hit me with yuor little red book. You are the one bashing Thailnad. I am voting that Thai women are way hotter than Chinese women!!!

[cdnvic]

Chill out everyone.

[EndofDays]

Chill out everyone.

Hey, one of my dreams is to travel across China and take in all its history. But...even though Thailand is jacked-up somewhat at the moment it is still more free than China (for now). Thai women are still hotter because they say "ka" when they talk. That is two votes now for Thai women are hotter.

[perousing]

do chinese women regard " farangs" as ATM's as many thai's do

[JR Texas]

Aside:

For expats who are looking for an alternative to Thailand-Titanic, there is a place adjacent to Macau that is sort of a retirement destination for well-to-do Chinese. It even has a small "walking street." It is on the ocean, has malls, all the Western food place, and lots of parks.......it is also an extremely clean city.......well managed. Now it is not too big; not too small, but it is growing (unfortunately).

Are you talking about Zhuhai ?

Thanks for the OP's message and I basically agree with most points although Beijing isn't "China", the same as New York isn't the USA or Sidney isn't Australia.

It's such a huge country with such a huge population and variety of landscapes, cultures and "kitchens" that it's virtually impossible to compare with any other country.

However, it's difficult to feel the same holiday feeling as one can have in Thailand; Thailand is much more laid back and has only a limited part where one can enjoy the beaches; in the south on Hainan island but even than it misses the same beach experience and beach-life as in LOS.

Most Chinese tourists don't even go to the beach during daytime because it's too hot and they don't want to get sunburned....they want to stay as white as possible

But China is a fascinating country, no doubt about that.

note:

Whilst writing and posting I noticed others made some comments as well. I think it's very easy to make positive or negative comments about China; it all depends on one's own experiences.

I've been coming and going into China for more than 30 years so I've seen some changes in those years and most for the better. What China has accomplished in those 30 years is unbelievable.

In those same years (even longer) I've also traveled through many countries in Europe, US and Canada, apart from other Far Eastern countries but there's no other example where changes were so dramatic as in China.

The point is that the country and distances are so huge that speaking about "China" is a bit odd; If one speaks/talks about Finland or Portugal, many say : "Oh but that's different because they're so apart" but it's just 2-3 hours by plane....whilst in China there are quite a few distances of 4-5 hours and you're still in the same country. Same-same as in Canada or Russia but less people....and less different cultures and kitchens and...Chinese

LaoPo

Yes, Zhuhai......I like it for the reasons stated....it is also walking distance to Macau and a short boat ride to Hong Kong.

You are right about trying to "generalize" when talking about China.........there are gems of cities there, but you have to find them.

And you are also right about the development over the past few decades.........and changes..........really massive.

[sokal]

do chinese women regard " farangs" as ATM's as many thai's do

I think if your a pot bellied alcoholic then yeah.