Living In China After Thailand

[patklang]

China is one place i wanted to visit but now in Thailand in a great relationship and very happy.My thai gf tells me about the stocks and shares,currency exchange,gold prices and even football,so no too thick i suppose lol.

[thaihome]

JR and Thaihome if you two can't discuss without insulting each other I'm gonna send you both off for a bit.

Chill.

Uh, where was my insult? Is saying I don't think someone knows much about business in china is an insult? Otherwise please point it out so I can avoid it in the future.

Thank you,

TH

[ferd54]

New Year – Jan 1-3

Chinese New Year – Jan 25-31

Qingming Holiday – Apr 4-6

Labor’s Day – May 1-3

Duanwu Holiday – May 28-30

National Day – Oct 1-8

Note that though the Chinese New Year is listed as week, in reality many of the migrant workers take a full 2 weeks.

I just had my Chinese colleague look at this list. The ones noted are tacked onto weekends, so the original list was a bit misleading

New Year – Jan 1-3 (one day, not three)

Chinese New Year – Jan 25-31 (three days, not seven)

Qingming Holiday – Apr 4-6 (one day, not three)

Labor’s Day – May 1-3 (one day, not three)

Duanwu Holiday – May 28-30 (one day, not three)

National Day – Oct 1-8

[thaihome]

I just had my Chinese colleague look at this list. The ones noted are tacked onto weekends, so the original list was a bit misleading

New Year – Jan 1-3 (one day, not three)

Chinese New Year – Jan 25-31 (three days, not seven)

Qingming Holiday – Apr 4-6 (one day, not three)

Labor’s Day – May 1-3 (one day, not three)

Duanwu Holiday – May 28-30 (one day, not three)

National Day – Oct 1-8

If you go to the link I provided it would show that the way they do it is dividing it between holidays and “off days”. There are 10 holidays, with an associated 10 “off days”. You are required to pay employees the 10 holidays and give the “off days” as vacation/leave days if the employee wishes to take them. It is actually a pretty good system. You end up with basically 3 week long vacations in which you only have to use vacation/leave time for half of it to get the full amount off work.

TH

[ferd54]

You are required to pay employees the 10 holidays

So China has 10 paid holiday days per year. I believe that's what my contract says as well.

I started this thread as a clearly labeled comparison of my experiences in living in Beijing and in Thailand. You have hijacked it to southern China, to Vietnam, to US State Dept warnings and you just keep at it, trying to find any way you can to continue to split hairs. Your avatar shows your bias and your defensive posts certainly indicate your deep love of the nation, so you're in the right place.

But because you worked in some sh*thole in south China that isn't everyone's experience, so why don't you just give it a break?

[doggie888888]

Is saying I don't think someone knows much about business in china is an insult?

Yes it is an insult in the context of this thread. Especially when someone else was presenting his views, perspectives and impressions based on his own experience. Only becasue you asked, I decided to answer. I actually agreed with a lot of what you said and your statistics provided an alternate view and even moreso, an interesting insight on life outside of the major centers of Sh and BJ...but I did not enjoy the "one-upmanship" and your strident language when objecting to another person's posts. It's a forum to share info and views...to accuse someone of not knowing much about bla bla is not in the spirit of this forum, is it? Don't ask me for specific examples and don't flame me because I will not respond, let others say their piece. Besides I think deep inside you might already know the answer to your own question.

[harrry]

grain of salt; make that a few pots of salt

LaoPo

Especiallyif there is commission involved in salt trade.

[thaihome]

You are required to pay employees the 10 holidays

So China has 10 paid holiday days per year. I believe that's what my contract says as well.

I started this thread as a clearly labeled comparison of my experiences in living in Beijing and in Thailand. You have hijacked it to southern China, to Vietnam, to US State Dept warnings and you just keep at it, trying to find any way you can to continue to split hairs. Your avatar shows your bias and your defensive posts certainly indicate your deep love of the nation, so you're in the right place.

But because you worked in some sh*thole in south China that isn't everyone's experience, so why don't you just give it a break?

No, the clearly labeled title of the thread is CHINA after Thailand, so giving my experiences on living in southern china was not hijacking the thread, I have also told about Beijing as well. If you go back you will see it is your fellow China defender JR that brought up Vietnam and the state dept warnings was in response to his saying there was no crime against foreigners in China.

I never called where I worked a shithole, wouldn't think of doing so, I actually kinda liked it. All I have done is give my experiences there after living in Thailand, the subject of the thread, along with correcting some inaccurate information on Thailand and Vietnam given by some people. Why are you all so up in arms about this? Because I didn't go along with your romantic notion of China but instead gave real life experiences?

Like I said, you people are good at dishing it out, but shit at taking it when it is turned around.

TH

[Mercury]

Isn't China a place to work, as the OP states, whereas for many, Thailand is a place to retire to ?

Different life phase I think. Interesting article.

[littlebigboss]

Isn't China a place to work, as the OP states, whereas for many, Thailand is a place to retire to ?

Definitively ! Dealing with Thais is a nightmare, they are so slow ! And it's all about who you are, who you're connected with .... take ages to go anywhere. With Chinese it's much easier : what do you want ? how much ? deal !

On the other hand, life in China is so stressful, you can never let your guard down, everywhere it's competition, competition ..,starting first time in the morning in the queue for the elevator ... Unwinding from time to time in Thailand is a necessity if you want to keep your sanity, but for holidays, not for work

[sunnymarky]

You are required to pay employees the 10 holidays

So China has 10 paid holiday days per year. I believe that's what my contract says as well.

I started this thread as a clearly labeled comparison of my experiences in living in Beijing and in Thailand. You have hijacked it to southern China, to Vietnam, to US State Dept warnings and you just keep at it, trying to find any way you can to continue to split hairs. Your avatar shows your bias and your defensive posts certainly indicate your deep love of the nation, so you're in the right place.

But because you worked in some sh*thole in south China that isn't everyone's experience, so why don't you just give it a break?

Lived and work in China 2 years, Shanghai , Beijing, Hainan. I worked as I wanted (hours and days) . If you work as an employee then its s h i t. Holidays are infrequent. Of course the other negatives are Pollution, over population and lack of western food products ( even in the big cities) combined with the the lack of variety in Chinese food( although Thai diet is same) . Dont want to ever hear anyone telling me about blandness of British food ever again because it "aint" and never has been true. Adding chillies , spicies and oil to a food doesn't make it so wonderful.

Edited September 3, 2009 by sunnymarky

[think_too_mut]

Appalling treatment of returnees kids. Returnees are kids who have lived overseas for awhile. They come back with language skills, ideas and are usually shot down by their peers and teachers. Often they are ridiculed for their English language skills.

Chinese are even worse. They even have coined a name for the returnees: "Returning turtles".

People like Jerry Yang (the founder of Yahoo), upon their return to China are given to listen to phone conversations in call centers "for quality purposes".

[JR Texas]

Isn't China a place to work, as the OP states, whereas for many, Thailand is a place to retire to ?

Different life phase I think. Interesting article.

That is a very interesting point...........one which, I sort of agree with. Sort of because of the horrible weather in Thailand......it is like living in a hot house filled with mosquitoes..........for ten months out of twelve.

It is hard to disagree that China is for "workers" and Thailand is for "retirees" who want to wear shorts, drink beer, chase women, and burp.

A lot of people are drawn to what seems like a more relaxed way of life in Thailand (or at least the way it used to be..........changing so fast now and in the wrong direction).

The problem I am having with Thailand is that the govt. is becoming more Draconian..........more like China. And at the same time the culture is becoming more like the place I left decades ago, with all of its problems.

It will be interesting to see how all of these changes play out over the next 20 years. Who knows, maybe Cambodia or Vietnam will be the next expat place to be. Sihanoukville reminds me of Pattaya 20 years ago.

Maybe China will become a more relaxed place to live.......but the population problem in China is so challenging..........that might not ever happen.

Maybe Thailand will reverse its xenophobic attitudes and laws with regard to foreigners...........that might happen if the economy continues to decline and social unrest continues.

Who knows..........."may we live in interesting times."

[harrry]

Rather than the bickering about a country not even mentioned in the original post I wish some people would post some more real comparrisons between China and Thailand. For instance Thailand has just anounced that it will pay the university fees and school fees for people with disabilities but still has failed to apply measures to make the places physically accessible. Are places in China physically accessible to people with disabilities?

Edited September 3, 2009 by harrry

[LivinginKata]

I have removed a few off topic posts and the replies to those posts.

Please keep on the topic 'Living in China after Thailand' and let's not bash other countries.

Thank you.

[littlebigboss]

The problem I am having with Thailand is that the govt. is becoming more Draconian..........more like China.

I wish ! For the past 20 years tremendous efforts have been made in China to change a backward communist country in a thriving first world economy. Dealing with the administration in China could be time consuming but it's possible, and not that difficult, to be 99% legal. For the 1% where the Chinese law is not compatible with the current reality, the authority is usually flexible until the problem has been fixed, and there is a definitive will to fix all problems, but in harmony with the evolution of the general population. I'm talking both on a personal and a business point of view.

Compare to Thailand where there is an almost general agreement among the political class to avoid even the slightest consideration about a possible evolution of the Thai society ... We are world apart !

PS : Here I'm talking about the government, not the general population.

[ferd54]

Are places in China physically accessible to people with disabilities?

The subways in Beijing have mechanized lifts for wheelchairs that run parallel to escalators (I've seen them used); the newest buses have low doors that can accommodate wheelchairs; there are often ramps (not stairs) at pedestrian overpasses; wheelchairs also use the bike lanes that run along all streets. The sidewalks themselves are almost always wide enough for pedestrians and wheelchairs.

That's all I've seen. I don't know about the schools.

[JR Texas]

Rather than the bickering about a country not even mentioned in the original post I wish some people would post some more real comparisons between China and Thailand. For instance Thailand has just anounced that it will pay the university fees and school fees for people with disabilities but still has failed to apply measures to make the places physically accessible. Are places in China physically accessible to people with disabilities?

I have seen special ramps for people w/ wheelchairs in the big cities........at large skyscrapers and hospitals and education institutions. I think this is the same for Thailand (the small cities do not have special access areas for people w/ disabilities).

Both China and Thailand are certainly way behind the USA in this regard.

I have no knowledge about China's policy in terms of university fees for people w/ disabilities.

Given that I have taught in both places, I can compare the quality of higher education in China to Thailand.........almost no comparison..........China wins big on this one. This is especially true for the top universities in China. They draw prominent scholars worldwide.

Many of the best Chinese scholars have migrated to some of the top universities in Taiwan. I think universities in Taiwan are better than most in China. But that is a bit off topic.

It just seems to me that higher education in Thailand is a "game." The corruption is also massive and blatant.

Most students, and there are exceptions, don't seem to take advantage of the opportunity given them.

Chinese students, in comparison are, for the most part, very serious about their education..........the results speak for themselves.

Thailand does do a good job at training nurses and dentists.

[bonobo]

Rather than the bickering about a country not even mentioned in the original post I wish some people would post some more real comparisons between China and Thailand. For instance Thailand has just anounced that it will pay the university fees and school fees for people with disabilities but still has failed to apply measures to make the places physically accessible. Are places in China physically accessible to people with disabilities?

I have seen special ramps for people w/ wheelchairs in the big cities........at large skyscrapers and hospitals and education institutions. I think this is the same for Thailand (the small cities do not have special access areas for people w/ disabilities).

Both China and Thailand are certainly way behind the USA in this regard.

I have no knowledge about China's policy in terms of university fees for people w/ disabilities.

Given that I have taught in both places, I can compare the quality of higher education in China to Thailand.........almost no comparison..........China wins big on this one. This is especially true for the top universities in China. They draw prominent scholars worldwide.

Many of the best Chinese scholars have migrated to some of the top universities in Taiwan. I think universities in Taiwan are better than most in China. But that is a bit off topic.

It just seems to me that higher education in Thailand is a "game." The corruption is also massive and blatant.

Most students, and there are exceptions, don't seem to take advantage of the opportunity given them.

Chinese students, in comparison are, for the most part, very serious about their education..........the results speak for themselves.

Thailand does do a good job at training nurses and dentists.

I have hesitated about posting this at the risk of ethnic stereotyping, but I tend to disagree with JR Texas on his opinions of Thai vs. Chinese students.  He has his teaching experiences, of course, but as a former business school professor where we had a large number of both Chinese and Thai students, I have my observations as well.

Basically, the Thai students were led by one or two influential students who organized study groups, homework sessions, and paper-writing conclaves.  I never had a problem with cheating, per se, but I realize that the papers tended to be a group effort.  The Thais were pretty much always accepting of whatever they were told or read as being fact.  If it was in black and white, it must be true.

The Chinese students were more independant in both their study habits and what they accepted as being fact or fiction.  A good portion would plagiarize readily, though, and when caught, showed no remorse.  They would readily admit it and tell me that all was fair in business and war. They expected me to try and catch them and accepted their "F," but they really didn't see to see anything wrong with their actions.  

The only Thai I ever caught blatantly cheating begged me not to let the other Thai students know I had caught her.

How this translates into living in China or Thailand is not clear-cut.  However, I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected, whether that means putting ground cardboard in dumplings or melamine in pet food. This despite the extremely harsh penalties which can me meted out for this type of action.  And Thais do seem to look to authority figures to guide them in life. 

[Bjorn]

Hi Ferd, I have always though cute Chinese girl's where some of the best in Asia, but if they come with the icy chill of winter I'll pass thanks!

Hi......glad you like China. I have been living there on and off for several years (also have a place in Thailand where I am currently spending most of my time) and know it well--both the north and south.

Your impressions are right on target.....at least from my perspective. Here is my take:

Public Transport:

Better than Thailand in some large cities, but can get bad in the hinterlands (same as Thailand).

Noise:

On balance, I would say most places are not as noisy as Thailand.

Girlfriend:

Some stunningly beautiful girls in China..........and light years smarter than the girls in Thailand (can say the same for Chinese people in general).

Cost of living:

It is very cheap to live in China in some places and expensive in others..........hard to compare which is better.

Food:

Completely disagree with you about the food.........I think there is no question that Chinese food is infinitely better than Thai food, and the variety of food is immense (also inexpensive).

Housing:

I think housing is the same.......concrete coffins for the most part (can find nice houses), but like you said the infrastructure seems better with almost no black outs.

Weather:

I love the weather in the north in particular.........it is nice to have the seasons change and not have to suffer intolerable heat every month of the year. I also like the different plants, more similar to what you see in the USA (also the mountains, ocean, etc., can be stunning in China).

Police:

About 1 million times better than the police in Thailand......treat foreigners with respect and you don't get the feeling that the Gestapo is watching you.

Government:

I have a problem with extreme authority, but I have never really felt it in China. The govt. in Thailand seems far more oppressive to me.

Visa:

Agree with you, the visa system is simple and sane. Thailand's system must be the worst on the planet.......stupid beyond imagination.

Biggest upsides in China:

Better infrastructure, more opportunity, sane business rules (not easy, just sane), smart people, far less violence, great food, nice people

Biggest downsides:

Too many people and BIG BROTHER........but as stated, I have never really had a problem with the latter.

Aside:

For expats who are looking for an alternative to Thailand-Titanic, there is a place adjacent to Macau that is sort of a retirement destination for well-to-do Chinese. It even has a small "walking street." It is on the ocean, has malls, all the Western food place, and lots of parks.......it is also an extremely clean city.......well managed. Now it is not too big; not too small, but it is growing (unfortunately).

Were exactly is this place near Macau? I'm living in Thailand but is looking for alternatives.

[littlebigboss]

I have hesitated about posting this at the risk of ethnic stereotyping, but I tend to disagree with JR Texas on his opinions of Thai vs. Chinese students. He has his teaching experiences, of course, but as a former business school professor where we had a large number of both Chinese and Thai students, I have my observations as well.

Basically, the Thai students were led by one or two influential students who organized study groups, homework sessions, and paper-writing conclaves. I never had a problem with cheating, per se, but I realize that the papers tended to be a group effort. The Thais were pretty much always accepting of whatever they were told or read as being fact. If it was in black and white, it must be true.

The Chinese students were more independant in both their study habits and what they accepted as being fact or fiction. A good portion would plagiarize readily, though, and when caught, showed no remorse. They would readily admit it and tell me that all was fair in business and war. They expected me to try and catch them and accepted their "F," but they really didn't see to see anything wrong with their actions.

The only Thai I ever caught blatantly cheating begged me not to let the other Thai students know I had caught her.

How this translates into living in China or Thailand is not clear-cut. However, I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected, whether that means putting ground cardboard in dumplings or melamine in pet food. This despite the extremely harsh penalties which can me meted out for this type of action. And Thais do seem to look to authority figures to guide them in life.

Ethnic stereotyping ? What make you believe that ?

"I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected " Noticed ? I'm very curious to know on what scientific observation you base this assumption.

You said "business school professor" ?

[JR Texas]

Were exactly is this place near Macau? I'm living in Thailand but is looking for alternatives.

The place I was talking about is Zhuhai.........Google it.......nice place on the ocean.......mountains come right up to the ocean. You can walk right across the border to Macau and take a short boat ride to Hong Kong (also a short flight to Thailand).

I am primarily familiar with Beijing, Hong Kong and Zhuhai.

Another poster, LaoPo, I think is likely familiar with a lot more places.

And still another one, the OP, is living in Beijing now.

Remember that China is HUGE.

It is hard to generalize........you can find virtually everything there.....good and bad.

I have said it once and will say it again.........a good option (if you can afford it) is to use both China and Thailand as bases.........Thailand during the few cool months and China during the hot as hel_l months (but that is me......a foreigner who likes the change of seasons and cool weather in the fall and spring).

This strategy removes the Thailand or China option.

[bonobo]

How this translates into living in China or Thailand is not clear-cut. However, I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected, whether that means putting ground cardboard in dumplings or melamine in pet food. This despite the extremely harsh penalties which can me meted out for this type of action. And Thais do seem to look to authority figures to guide them in life.

 

"I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected " Noticed ? I'm very curious to know on what scientific observation you base this assumption.

You said "business school professor" ?

I gave two examples in my post, and if you have read any newspapers over the last two years, you would have read about more.  And come across this fairly regularly in my present business dealings somewhat often. And you noticed I used the word "seems."  That usually indicates a perception rather than any scientific fact.

I never realized that being a professor was that funny of an occupation.  

[ferd54]

However, I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected ....

There is a term for the copies -- Shanzai -- that are so much a part of Chinese culture they are celebrated as an art form. It really is incredible how many different and creative copies they can come up with.

You have to remember that most people in China are terribly poor and desperately look for something that can give them a leg up. Because Proctor and Gamble does so much advertising, its brands are some of the most victimized. The makers of Head and Shoulders pesticide and Rejoice sanitary napkins are among those that stand out in my memory over the past three years. I was also impressed with a fully fake BMW seized at customs (though I wouldn't want to drive it through Bavaria).

My work deals with writing and editing. I have busted many of the writers plagiarizing work from the internet.

But in Thailand I was involved in similar activity and found the Thais under my training perfectly willing to do the same thing. I don't think there's much difference.

Chinese products are exported around the world and are scrutinized by the FDA and EU health departments, which sometimes find shocking substances that have been used as additives. I wonder what we would find if Thai products underwent the same tests.

The awful stories about food are often the result of farmers sneaking things into the food, not the processing plants or large factories. It's almost impossible for the government to track the entire food chain out to the remote provinces. My Chinese friends will tell you that food safety is one of their big concerns too; they prefer to buy foreign-made products if they can.

What all this has to do with living in China vs Thaiand, I'm not sure, but this is some background to the reality.

[JR Texas]

However, I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected ....

There is a term for the copies -- Shanzai -- that are so much a part of Chinese culture they are celebrated as an art form. It really is incredible how many different and creative copies they can come up with.

You have to remember that most people in China are terribly poor and desperately look for something that can give them a leg up. Because Proctor and Gamble does so much advertising, its brands are some of the most victimized. The makers of Head and Shoulders pesticide and Rejoice sanitary napkins are among those that stand out in my memory over the past three years. I was also impressed with a fully fake BMW seized at customs (though I wouldn't want to drive it through Bavaria).

My work deals with writing and editing. I have busted many of the writers plagiarizing work from the internet.

But in Thailand I was involved in similar activity and found the Thais under my training perfectly willing to do the same thing. I don't think there's much difference.

Chinese products are exported around the world and are scrutinized by the FDA and EU health departments, which sometimes find shocking substances that have been used as additives. I wonder what we would find if Thai products underwent the same tests.

The awful stories about food are often the result of farmers sneaking things into the food, not the processing plants or large factories. It's almost impossible for the government to track the entire food chain out to the remote provinces. My Chinese friends will tell you that food safety is one of their big concerns too; they prefer to buy foreign-made products if they can.

What all this has to do with living in China vs Thaiand, I'm not sure, but this is some background to the reality.

Just interjecting something..........Thailand does a lot of trade with China..........many Chinese products are found on the shelves in Thailand. Neither country, IMHO, cares much about anything but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So, I agree.......not much difference. I remember one poster stating he was leaving a great job in Hong Kong because he was afraid that his newborn would get sick from it........and thought the food in Thailand was healthier. I actually broke out laughing after reading his post and felt sorry for him.

If you like loads of dangerous pesticides and other strange additives in your food..........eat in Asia.

It is not simply China.......not simply Thailand.........it is Asia in general.

Maybe Singapore and Japan and S. Korea are a bit different because of their "food police."

Having said that.........I have never been sick from eating food in China. And I almost never get sick in Thailand from the food.

That does not necessarily mean the food is healthy.

[ferd54]

Just a note: There is a thread in the Chiang Mai section on copyrights, illegal copies etc. right now.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Copyright-Police-t217155.html

[LaoPo]

However, I have noticed that in China, trying to cheat in business seems sort of expected ....

There is a term for the copies -- Shanzai -- that are so much a part of Chinese culture they are celebrated as an art form. It really is incredible how many different and creative copies they can come up with.

You have to remember that most people in China are terribly poor and desperately look for something that can give them a leg up. Because Proctor and Gamble does so much advertising, its brands are some of the most victimized. The makers of Head and Shoulders pesticide and Rejoice sanitary napkins are among those that stand out in my memory over the past three years. I was also impressed with a fully fake BMW seized at customs (though I wouldn't want to drive it through Bavaria).

My work deals with writing and editing. I have busted many of the writers plagiarizing work from the internet.

But in Thailand I was involved in similar activity and found the Thais under my training perfectly willing to do the same thing. I don't think there's much difference.

Chinese products are exported around the world and are scrutinized by the FDA and EU health departments, which sometimes find shocking substances that have been used as additives. I wonder what we would find if Thai products underwent the same tests.

The awful stories about food are often the result of farmers sneaking things into the food, not the processing plants or large factories. It's almost impossible for the government to track the entire food chain out to the remote provinces. My Chinese friends will tell you that food safety is one of their big concerns too; they prefer to buy foreign-made products if they can.

What all this has to do with living in China vs Thaiand, I'm not sure, but this is some background to the reality.

Interesting observations from both Bonobo and Ferd54.

Myself I'm again and again surprised and sometimes even shocked that many Chinese think it's normal to produce, buy or sell fake goods, whether perfect copies (yes, there are different grades in copies) of handbags or any other product.

The observations by Bonobo are interesting because it's first hand, dealing with both Thai and Chinese students. I'm not sure however if his observations were about mainland Chinese students or Thai-Chinese students ?

Anyway, the accepted behavior amongst mainland Chinese about copies is, like Ferd54 said, understandable but in our Western eyes not acceptable. They think differently about that and it will take time before they will accept that it's not done. But the market is huge, really huge but as long as there's a market abroad, they will produce fake goods.

The parents of those same students suffered immensely during the Mao era and when Deng Xiaoping opened up China everybody jumped in and tried to make a better living and they literally took every opportunity to make money, including copying products. If you're hungry and want a better living you do anything to make a better living. Thailand is a fine example

This is just a phenomenon which, in time, will fade away. After WWII the Japanese did the same but on a much smaller scale; later they learned and switched to own designs created by own designers (after hiring European and American designers first, for 1 or 2 decades). Than they start going on holiday and buy Thousands of dollars designer bags in Paris or Milano ...knowing they are produced in China.

It's all in the game. The Chinese government is fighting copy factories but not enough yet since it's not so easy in these difficult economical times to put millions of workers on the street, next to the ones who already lost their jobs.

LaoPo

[bonobo]

 

The observations by Bonobo are interesting because it's first hand, dealing with both Thai and Chinese students. I'm not sure however if his observations were about mainland Chinese students or Thai-Chinese students ?

Chinese from the PRC.  The Chinese from the ROC had a slightly different perspective, and the Thais pretty much all stuck together whatever their ethnic background.

I want to stress that I don't want to be judgmental here. When discussing this kind of thing with Chinese, I have received some logical arguments for this type of behavior, and when questioned about western practices that most Chinese find abhorrent, well, I never had a rational response for some of them.

[LaoPo]

 

The observations by Bonobo are interesting because it's first hand, dealing with both Thai and Chinese students. I'm not sure however if his observations were about mainland Chinese students or Thai-Chinese students ?

Chinese from the PRC.  The Chinese from the ROC had a slightly different perspective, and the Thais pretty much all stuck together whatever their ethnic background.

I want to stress that I don't want to be judgmental here. When discussing this kind of thing with Chinese, I have received some logical arguments for this type of behavior, and when questioned about western practices that most Chinese find abhorrent, well, I never had a rational response for some of them.

East meets West versus West meets East

We have the same about Eastern practices; it's a result of thousands of years of progress, education, wars, peace, hunger and view upon neighbors' customs also across borders.

After all, our modern society, let's say since 100, 200 years, is based upon information; it all started by sending messages from one place to another by means of runners (marathon - Greece) or horses, camels, pigeons, boats, mail stagecoaches, trains, cars, planes and now email via satellites.

Many here on this forum will acknowledge that they've encountered many misunderstandings with their foreign spouses because of culture, growing up- and educational differences.

Surely, you must realize so, having practiced as a Professor in education

Once in a while I still gasp , not understanding what my wife means, and, she's Chinese. They think different than we do.

The question is: are we correct or are they ?

Westerners, most of the time, view upon the East with brains, formed and educated in the West but the same is true about Easterners viewing upon the West.

But, we forget that culture in the East is a lot older than culture in most Western countries. In China, in the 12th, 13th century there were cities with more than 1 million people, with civilized sewage systems in place, when London and Paris had a mere 20.000 people where people lived under barbaric circumstances!

Nevertheless many Westerners consider themselves superior to their fellow Homo Sapiens in the East. I think that's based upon noticing and profiting from the poor countries in the East, since centuries, by the Western colonizing countries: Holland, England, Spain, Portugal, Belgium to name a few who only took, not give, and didn't do much in return do develop those countries.

China, but also Japan, closed their own borders after some negative experiences with foreign nations and thus shut the doors to western influences; at the same time the rulers of said countries did nothing to help their population to grow and educate which resulted in the same situation as we're seeing now in neighbour Burma and on a smaller scale: Thailand, where the elite prefers to let the population sleep instead boosting the educational system and thus: the country.

I must say, never mind your remarks about the difference in observations you had, that China understood the utter importance of educating their young better than Thailand does and did. But, if I'm wrong I would like to hear your most appreciated opinion. Just my own observations.

NOW...we're back to where it started; living China versus Thailand

Note: this isn't addressed at you Bonobo; I'm speaking in general and out of experience.

LaoPo

[ferd54]

One of the problems I have with the Han Chinese is their utter self-obsession; it is the hard-wired way they view the "outside world" and the many minorities within China's own borders. Its in their DNA, so to speak; they often don't even realize they are behaving in a culturally insulting way, particularly as they interact with the "minority" (ie:non-Han) groups, which can be incessantly referred to as a minority even if they comprise the majority of the population in their ancestral homeland.

I think that goes a long way toward explaining how the oldest living culture on earth can be one of the most backward in the 20th Century.

Their educational system and culture are not ideal for accepting new ideas or creating innovative ones of their own. It is a top-down command culture even today and students often learn by rote memory. I will ask newbies I deal with to write a particular story and often get back a numbered list of statements parroted from some other document, which often have only a passing relationship with reality. Even logic flies out the window -- they will happily report that a lumber mill in the Inner Mongolian desert covers 100 square kilometers. They will not wonder if that can be possible in a land with no trees and will defend the assertion because some local government official told them so.

That said, many do get beyond that and there are some incredibly creative Chinese. They are smart people anyway, so with the sheer numbers of people here, China certainly has the most geniuses in the world. I think you will see incredible innovation come out of here very soon; and it is probably already happening.