Thai Citizenship

[PvtDick]

Yes, I realize that. I plan to keep my US citizenship should I ever acquire Thai citizenship -- and frankly, I can't imagine the US even having a way to know I had become a dual national.

Edited March 22, 2005 by PvtDick

[~G~]

That's correct, but for people without the ability of dual citizenship it would probably have more negative effects than advantages. You would most likely lose the right to pension or other support from your home country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, for westerners or citizens of other developed countries.

But not for most of the world's population... Pension??? Support???

[EVO]

Dual Citizenship is not granted by a great deal of countries. My wife is unable to hold dual citizenship for instance, though i guess we would never need it anyway.

[Vit42]

Dual Citizenship is not granted by a great deal of countries. My wife is unable to hold dual citizenship for instance, though i guess we would never need it anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As i said in an earlier post, most countries don't officially "grant" dual citizenship. However, they do recognize that there are cases where people have citizenship rights to more than one country, for example, parents of different nationality. Countries may not officially grant dual citizenship but then again they don't officially deny you the right to have it.

Double taxation is a more complex issue and has to do with the treaty between countries and the tax authorities. In general though, there are usually ways to not be taxed the same in both countries by proving that you've paid an equivalent tax in the other country. Thai visa has a nice story about this...

http://www.thaivisa.com/thailand_us_tax.0.html

[Khutan]

I heard of one farang who had himself legally adopted by a Thai Woman and got it that way.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are there any more details on this, like who did the legal work etc etc.

[hendy75]

Checked back into the info I had saved on my computer about citizenship requirements and found this:

In case of applying for Thai citizenship through Thai husband

        1.  Same document as in general case

        2.    Certified letter from special branch division or the concerned provincial 

                police station

        3.    A photocopy of husband's house registration

        4.    A photocopy of husband's indntification card

        5.    Interrogation report

        6.    Application must be made in person

 

and from the Thai visa website:

To acquire Thai nationality

Aliens who wish to apply for Thai nationality under the Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (A.D. 1965) a person does NOT need to be 40 years or have spent 10 years in Thailand.

They must be of the age of majority, be of good character, be gainfully employed, have continuously lived in Thailand for not less than FIVE years and have knowledge of the Thai language. (Section 10) It's an advantage to be married to a Thai citizen and having children born in Thailand or having studied in a local university/college as an undergraduate. The applicant must complete an application form and submit various required documents to the Criminal Investigation Division Group I, Subdivision 3, Police Department, Rama I Road, Bangkok. 

The official fee is Baht 5,000. The processing takes 2 to 3 years. 

In the case of a minor child sponsored by a mother or father having Thai nationality, there must be evidence of both sponsorship and the child's birth. Likewise, a wife seeking Thai citizenship based on her husband's Thai nationality must submit evidence of the husband's nationality, the marriage, and a formal request for Thai citizenship.

So, I guess, basic research shows the 10 year permanent residency idea is also a fallacy. Or just from someone who doesn't take the time to perform basic and elementary research?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[haltes]

How do I get the yellow place of residency book?

I have a blue one from when I bought the condo but I never tried to add my name to it!

[bkk_mike]

So many Thais i know would die to get a foreign citizenship. Why would you want to give up yours (if your country doesn't allow dual, that is) to get Thai citizenship?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you're American - and make a LOT of money, getting a foreign citizenship, and renouncing your US citizenship is the only way to get out of the clutches of the Infernal Revenue Service.

[PvtDick]

It's not that easy, though. The IRS can still tax you if they determine that you are renouncing your citizenship for tax avoidance purposes.

[Nordlys]

I do have dual citizenship thorugh birth in Thailand. My other citizenship is Japanese, I was born to Japanese parents here. Japan doesn't allow dual citizenships in principle, but having born before the amendment of citizenship act in early 70's, I am still considered a Japaense citizen unless I voluntarily declared another citizenship at the embassy.

However, it was only about 3 years ago after many years away from Thailand (and still many years after I returned to Thailand) that I have renewed my long expired Thai ID card. Since then, I bought a condominium in my name with no transfer from overseas, voted in the election last Feb, and even received medical care under B30 medical scheme (they sent me the "gold card").

When I had my ID card renewed (or more like reinstated) at the district office, they were very suspicious with me and asked why it took me so long to come for renewal and I answered I was out of the country mostly. How did I prove that? with my Japanese passport. I was afraid they would not renew my ID card as I thought Thailand does not allow dual citizenships either, but after calling my next of kin (mother) who can guarantee my identity and interviewing her for a few minutes, they decided to renew/reinstate my ID card.

However, as my first entry back to Thailand after many years in US and Japan was as a Japanese passport holder (with non-immigrant visa), I am still renewing my visa and work permit every year. My wife is starting to complain about the increasing cost of visa renewal and all these paper works, and suggesting I should apply for PR. And I tell my wife that is pointless, since I already have a citizenship. Why a PR when you are already a citizen?

I and my wife have often talked about how I can start a Thai only identity life here. Should I just go issue a Thai passport, leave the country with Japanese passport and come back with Thai passport? That way there's no more Japaense me in Thailand technically. And then it's a lot more convenient when going to Japan, US or Europe or for that matter any countries in the world being a Japanese passport holder (than a Thai). And I don't think I can just travel with two passports, leaving Thailand with Jap passport and coming back as Thai.

Anybody else has a same dilemma?

I just don't see how many more years I have to keep renewing my visa when I'm already a Thai citizen. I guess ultimately it's just a matter of weighing the inconvenience of visa/work permit renewal and convenience of travelling as a Japanese without having to worry about visa...

What would you do if you're in my situation?

Should I go for PR as my wife suggests?

BTW I and my wife registered our marriage here as a foreign husband and a Thai wife. It was extremely complicated process registering marriage to Thai wife here as a foreigner, but I did so to align with my immigrational status.

[lopburi3]

As long as Japan does not have a problem with it I would get the Thai passport and make the trip. When you return use the Thai passport and you are Thai and no more work permit or visa worries. Just remember to use Thai passport thereafter to exit/enter Thailand each time you travel. I assume you are already listed on a home register as you own a condo.

[Nordlys]

Hi Lopburi3,

Execuse me, what does a house registration have anything to do with this??

I think issuing a Thai passport is no problem.

But will it cause a problem if I return to Thailand with a blank Thai passport, issued in Thailand but with no trace of ever leaving the country with that passport?

As long as Japan does not have a problem with it I would get the Thai passport and make the trip.  When you return use the Thai passport and you are Thai and no more work permit or visa worries.  Just remember to use Thai passport thereafter to exit/enter Thailand each time you travel.  I assume you are already listed on a home register as you own a condo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[samran]

Hi Lopburi3,

Execuse me, what does a house registration have anything to do with this?? 

I think issuing a Thai passport is no problem. 

But will it cause a problem if I return to Thailand with a blank Thai passport, issued in Thailand but with no trace of ever leaving the country with that passport? 

As long as Japan does not have a problem with it I would get the Thai passport and make the trip.  When you return use the Thai passport and you are Thai and no more work permit or visa worries.  Just remember to use Thai passport thereafter to exit/enter Thailand each time you travel.  I assume you are already listed on a home register as you own a condo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It shouldn't cause any trouble entering on a blank passport. Many Thai passports are issued from embassy's overseas when they are lost or renewed.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hi Lopburi3,

Execuse me, what does a house registration have anything to do with this?? 

I think issuing a Thai passport is no problem. 

But will it cause a problem if I return to Thailand with a blank Thai passport, issued in Thailand but with no trace of ever leaving the country with that passport? 

As long as Japan does not have a problem with it I would get the Thai passport and make the trip.  When you return use the Thai passport and you are Thai and no more work permit or visa worries.  Just remember to use Thai passport thereafter to exit/enter Thailand each time you travel.  I assume you are already listed on a home register as you own a condo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do just that and the problem is solved

It shouldn't cause any trouble entering on a blank passport. Many Thai passports are issued from embassy's overseas when they are lost or renewed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Nordlys]

So I should get my Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy outside Thailand claiming I lost one?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

So I should get my Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy outside Thailand claiming I lost one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need. Consular Affairs Department of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs will fix it for you. Take all your paperwork. Good luck.

[Nordlys]

Hi Dr. Patpong

You mean I can get the passport issued in Thailand, travel to Japan with my Japanese passport and come back with new, blank Thai passport and that's no problem?

Well it's not like it's going to happen very soon but that's probably what I'll consider doing when I'll retire here or if I'll change my job. Thanks for the inputs.

So I should get my Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy outside Thailand claiming I lost one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need. Consular Affairs Department of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs will fix it for you. Take all your paperwork. Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hi Dr. Patpong

You mean I can get the passport issued in Thailand, travel to Japan with my Japanese passport and come back with new, blank Thai passport and that's no problem? 

Well it's not like it's going to happen very soon but that's probably what I'll consider doing when I'll retire here or if I'll change my job.  Thanks for the inputs. 

So I should get my Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy outside Thailand claiming I lost one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No need. Consular Affairs Department of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs will fix it for you. Take all your paperwork. Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It'd be a slower process, but you could also do it through the Thai Embassy in Tokyo.

[lopburi3]

Hi Lopburi3,

Execuse me, what does a house registration have anything to do with this?? 

Item 5 below. Used to always be required for passport and believe it may be asked for at least for first time applications now. Although these is a push to make the ID card all important the home register is still required for some things.

Documents required when applying for a Thai passport

Males

Identity card.

Females

Identity card.

Minors  (under 20 years of age)

1. Birth certificate (new born -14 years) or identity card (15-20 years)

2. Marriage Registration Certificate of mother and father.

3. Identity cards of mother and father.

4. Consent of parents or legal guardian (s) Minors under 15 years of age must come to the passport office with both father and mother or legal guardian (s). In case one of the parents is unable to come , he/she must sign a letter of consent, which  must be brought to the office by the other parent and the minor.  Minors over 15 years of age  can apply for a passport with a letter of consent alone signed by both father and mother or legal guardian (s).

Other documents (if applicable)

1. Certificate of changing personal name.

2. Marriage registration certificate

3. Divorce registration certificate

4. Adoption registration certificate

5. House registration document.

Notes :

1. Application fees: Baht 1,073 for a 32-page passport , Baht 1,573 for a 64-page passport.

2. Originals of the above-mentioned documents must be presented together with one copy “certified true ” of each document.

3. The passport can be collected after 3 working days.

[samran]

So I should get my Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy outside Thailand claiming I lost one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, just get it issued in Thailand. In any case, Thai passports which are issued from embassy's overseas are all produced in Bangkok anyway. Mine for instance was applied for and recivied in Canberra but the passport itself says it was issued Bangkok. So they are all the same.

My advice is, leave Thailand on the Japanese PP, go to Singapore or Hong Kong for a day trip and then return to Thailand using the Thai PP. If immigration at BKK ask, just tell them the truth that you have just had a Thai PP re-issued and you want to re-enter Thailand as a Thai citizen.

[Nordlys]

Thanks for all the inputs lopburi3 and samran

I see you also have dual citizenships samran.

Do you also live in Thailand as a Thai citizen?

And travel with Thai passport only?

So I should get my Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy outside Thailand claiming I lost one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, just get it issued in Thailand. In any case, Thai passports which are issued from embassy's overseas are all produced in Bangkok anyway. Mine for instance was applied for and recivied in Canberra but the passport itself says it was issued Bangkok. So they are all the same.

My advice is, leave Thailand on the Japanese PP, go to Singapore or Hong Kong for a day trip and then return to Thailand using the Thai PP. If immigration at BKK ask, just tell them the truth that you have just had a Thai PP re-issued and you want to re-enter Thailand as a Thai citizen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[samran]

Thanks for all the inputs lopburi3 and samran 

I see you also have dual citizenships samran. 

Do you also live in Thailand as a Thai citizen? 

And travel with Thai passport only? 

When in Thailand I enter using my Thai PP. When travelling around SE Asia, I tend to use my Thai PP aslo. When travelling to country's that Thai's need visas, I use my Australian passport.

In the main, no onein thailand cares about stamp trails these days.

[Nordlys]

But when you left Thailand with your Australian passport, do you use the same passport when leaving the country you visited? And return to Thailand with that same passport? Then you need a visa, work permit and 90 days thingy.....? Or leave Thailand with Aussie passport and return to Thailand with Thai passport?

When in Thailand I enter using my Thai PP. When travelling around SE Asia, I tend to use my Thai PP aslo. When travelling to country's that Thai's need visas, I use my Australian passport.

In the main, no onein thailand cares about stamp trails these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[dannishgung]

I have been here in Thailand for a while and got married with my gilfriend few months ago. I have learned a few things about this country. That is this country is all about who you know and your connections. If you know the right people or have right connection, then there is no rule or law.

I got married and applied for a single O and did my 1 year extension. My father in law is from some influential family in Songkla. When I and my wife wanted to go immigration get the extension ourselves, he insisted he will take care for me. I think he had his golf friend who is some big person in the military to take care of it. And the next day I got my passport back with one year extension. No 1 month consideration period and no bank balance sheet needed.

But I was a little reluctant to have the 1 year extension, because I really plan to take my wife back to Danmark soon and go back to my work also i really miss home quite a lot. I am not used to these special privilage in Thailand because I have never experience it in my culture.

Also I know another case about the Thai citizenship. I know a Singaporean who owns many factories in Songkla. I think he also knows many big people in the government in Hat Yai as well. He has been in Thailand for about only 3 years and he has Thai citizenship already. He said he need it to buy lands and buy factories. I would guess it is some special priveledge as well.

But I still much prefer and much more used to the everyone same same culture like in Scandinavia.

[samran]

But when you left Thailand with your Australian passport, do you use the same passport when leaving the country you visited?  And return to Thailand with that same passport?  Then you need a visa, work permit and 90 days thingy.....?  Or leave Thailand with Aussie passport and return to Thailand with Thai passport? 

When in Thailand I enter using my Thai PP. When travelling around SE Asia, I tend to use my Thai PP aslo. When travelling to country's that Thai's need visas, I use my Australian passport.

In the main, no onein thailand cares about stamp trails these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, don't make this confusing for yourself.

Seeing you have already entered Thailand on the Japanese PP, you must leave on it. ALWAYS leave a country using the same PP you entered it on.

When you return to Thailand the next time, use your Thai PP to enter the country. From that point on, only ever use the Thai PP to enter and leave the Kingdom.

So based on that, I have never used my Australian PP to enter or leave Thailand, only my Thai PP, so no need for visas, work permits etc.

[sabaijai]

It's not that easy, though.  The IRS can still tax you if they determine that you are renouncing your citizenship for tax avoidance purposes.

An American friend - a successful businessperson living in Thailand - who looked into renouncing his US citizenship said the US state dept told him they would accept his renunciation, but that he would be subject to US income tax for a 10-year period afterwards.

It wasn't clear to me whether this was a ruling that applied only to someone considered to be renouncing US citizenship for tax purposes, or for all ex-US citizens.

[easymoney]

It's not that easy, though.  The IRS can still tax you if they determine that you are renouncing your citizenship for tax avoidance purposes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

An American friend - a successful businessperson living in Thailand - who looked into renouncing his US citizenship said the US state dept told him they would accept his renunciation, but that he would be subject to US income tax for a 10-year period afterwards.

It wasn't clear to me whether this was a ruling that applied only to someone considered to be renouncing US citizenship for tax purposes, or for all ex-US citizens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The IRS ruling is an expansion after the fact of the Eastern Tycoons Campbells , Hersey, etc family's going to the Bahamas in the late eighties and establishing citizenship there. it was more for the death tax than income tax. It did open a new offesive aginst US tax payers at first if you had 5 mil above passed thru congress and of course twisted into a new virus verdit of 10 years. However, if you don't reside in US in any 12 month period you have the 78,500 exemption. If anyone pays with that they need to go back. For one, never declare a wife for tax purposes , never get them a tax ID so you can claim a pittace of return.There are hundreds of ways not to pay . The US doesn't deserve or need the expats money as we who are here pay tax's in some cases and if not greatly enhance the riches of our loved ones around us. I have dual citizenship of US(born farang) and now Thai for 3 years. ON travel I leave on Thai enter depending on location Thai or US and always return on Thai.

[Nordlys]

That's clear enough, thanks Samran.

So when you wrote you use an Australian passport to visit countries where as a Thai you need a visa, do you leave Thailand with Thai passport, enter that country with Aussie passport, leave there with Aussie passport and return to Thailand with Thai passport. Is that possible?

Or do you go back to Australia first then leave from there with Aussie passport?

But when you left Thailand with your Australian passport, do you use the same passport when leaving the country you visited?  And return to Thailand with that same passport?  Then you need a visa, work permit and 90 days thingy.....?  Or leave Thailand with Aussie passport and return to Thailand with Thai passport? 

When in Thailand I enter using my Thai PP. When travelling around SE Asia, I tend to use my Thai PP aslo. When travelling to country's that Thai's need visas, I use my Australian passport.

In the main, no onein thailand cares about stamp trails these days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, don't make this confusing for yourself.

Seeing you have already entered Thailand on the Japanese PP, you must leave on it. ALWAYS leave a country using the same PP you entered it on.

When you return to Thailand the next time, use your Thai PP to enter the country. From that point on, only ever use the Thai PP to enter and leave the Kingdom.

So based on that, I have never used my Australian PP to enter or leave Thailand, only my Thai PP, so no need for visas, work permits etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[samran]

That's clear enough, thanks Samran. 

So when you wrote you use an Australian passport to visit countries where as a Thai you need a visa, do you leave Thailand with Thai passport, enter that country with Aussie passport, leave there with Aussie passport and return to Thailand with Thai passport.  Is that possible? 

Or do you go back to Australia first then leave from there with Aussie passport? 

Thats right. I've travelled between Thailand and the UK and US a number of times. I simply get stamped out of Thailand with my Thai PP and enter the US or UK (where I live now) on my Australian PP.

No need to go back to Australia, there is no point.

[JanJane]

"Technically" is definitely the right answer. I have tried, and failed. Not because of any qualification limitations but because the provincial police are unaware that any of them can do the job! We went to apply, and noone knew how to do it! They just shook their heads, said "Not me!" and suggested we try Immigration (it must be done through the police). Will keep trying!

There is at least one TV member who does have citizenship (male) that I know of. Lots of requirements but, apparently, doable (if you live in Bangkok )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its amusing how some people sound off without bothering to do the most basic and elementary research.You cannot apply to be a citizen without the necessary prerequisite of having had permanent residence for 10 years (though I believe this number may have been reviewed.)

Then, why Boris, do the national Thai police tell me that I can apply for Thai citizenship after simply having been married to a Thai man for over 5 years? (I have no PR, haven't lived in Thailand for 5 years and was married in the UK!). Where did you get this information? The Thai nationality act does not state the need for a PR.