Think-tank Calls For Welfare State

[animatic]

a welfare state really is the long term solution, and the sooner it happens the better.

Do you understand what this means?

In the strictest sense, a welfare state is a government that provides for the welfare, or the well-being, of its citizens completely.

Such a government is involved in citizens’ lives at every level. It provides for physical, material, and social needs

rather than the people providing for their own. The purpose of the welfare state is to create economic equality

or to assure equitable standards of living for all.

Most advanced nations are not true welfare states, although many provide at least some social services or entitlement programs.

These goods and services are generally available only to certain people who meet eligibility requirements.

However, those that meet the prerequisites are guaranteed -or entitled to- benefits as a right.

This type of system is frequently referred to as a “safety net,” which is designed to help the most vulnerable.

The welfare state is socialist in nature. It redistributes wealth by heavily taxing the middle and upper classes

in order to provide goods and services for those seen as underprivileged.

However, even countries that don’t typically subscribe to socialism offer at least some form of safety net,

most of which continue to expand.

While some nations believe that creating a welfare state is the proper role of any central government,

few have managed to create efficient systems. They are unable to provide equitably for all their citizens,

often leaving those most in need with the least. Rationing of goods and services also becomes a major problem

when too many people depend on the welfare state.

All advanced societies view helping people who literally cannot help themselves as decent, humane, and necessary.

Yet, another serious issue with the welfare state philosophy is that many people who are capable of caring for themselves

have no motivation to improve their lives when they can depend on the government to provide for them.

This often breeds resentment amongst those who do work when they are forced to pay for people who do not,

via ever-increasing taxes.

Such a system can fuel class warfare and prevent equality instead of obtaining it.

The concept of the welfare state may appear to be a good model on paper.

However, the reality of creating a truly equitable state has thus far been impossible to achieve.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-welfare-state.htm

It is an idea that has never worked.

Some parts of this have been considered proper to do, but as a blanket Welfare State it has never worked.

From communist or uber-socialist states on down.

Why might you ask is China now turning so capitalist, in such a big way, except at the political top.

Because the economic welfare state was unworkable even for a totalitarian Communist nation of a billion people.

Ayn Rand's view.

Welfare State

Since the things man needs for survival have to be produced, and nature does not guarantee the success of any human endeavor,

there is not and cannot be any such thing as a guaranteed economic security. The employer who gives you a job, has no guarantee

that his business will remain in existence, that his customers will continue to buy his products or services.

The customers have no guarantee that they will always be able and willing to trade with him, no guarantee of what their needs,

choices and incomes will be in the future. If you retire to a self-sustaining farm, you have no guarantee to protect you from

what a flood or a hurricane might do to your land and your crops. If you surrender everything to the government and give it total power

to plan the whole economy, this will not guarantee your economic security, but it will guarantee the descent of the entire nation

to a level of miserable poverty—

as the practical results of every totalitarian economy, communist or fascist, have demonstrated.

Morally, the promise of an impossible “right” to economic security is an infamous attempt to abrogate the concept of rights.

It can and does mean only one thing: a promise to enslave the men who produce, for the benefit of those who don’t.

“If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights

and condemned to slave labor.” (“Man’s Rights” in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.)

There can be no such thing as the right to enslave, i.e., the right to destroy rights.

The Ayn Rand Letter “A Preview,” The Ayn Rand Letter, I, 22, 2

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/welfare_state.html

I have lived in USA, and also Europe with 10 years in France; one of the most socialist of capitalist countries.

France has maybe come closest to making a welfare state work, and STILL hasn't really gotten it right.

There are many not contributing, and partly because people do not hire those they can't fire after 3 months

regardless of lack of effort or productivity. 'They can't fire me so I need not do too much' is a well known attitude.

And 10% chronic un-employment has resulted. There is an excellent level of services and life is not bad,

but the expectation of increases or no loses of these services, and the unions that feed on these fears,

regularly parallelized the country through work stoppages and national strikes,

further eroding the very productivity needed to sustain those services themselves.

Now this in no way means I do not want an increase in the fortunes and lives of the poor in Thailand,

what it means is it must be done in a sustainable way. And as proved innumerable times in history,

Welfare States per se are NOT sustainable.

Edited September 16, 2009 by animatic

[hammered]

a welfare state really is the long term solution, and the sooner it happens the better.

Do you understand what this means?

In the strictest sense, a welfare state is a government that provides for the welfare, or the well-being, of its citizens completely.

Such a government is involved in citizens’ lives at every level. It provides for physical, material, and social needs

rather than the people providing for their own. The purpose of the welfare state is to create economic equality

or to assure equitable standards of living for all.

Most advanced nations are not true welfare states, although many provide at least some social services or entitlement programs.

These goods and services are generally available only to certain people who meet eligibility requirements.

However, those that meet the prerequisites are guaranteed -or entitled to- benefits as a right.

This type of system is frequently referred to as a “safety net,” which is designed to help the most vulnerable.

The welfare state is socialist in nature. It redistributes wealth by heavily taxing the middle and upper classes

in order to provide goods and services for those seen as underprivileged.

However, even countries that don’t typically subscribe to socialism offer at least some form of safety net,

most of which continue to expand.

While some nations believe that creating a welfare state is the proper role of any central government,

few have managed to create efficient systems. They are unable to provide equitably for all their citizens,

often leaving those most in need with the least. Rationing of goods and services also becomes a major problem

when too many people depend on the welfare state.

All advanced societies view helping people who literally cannot help themselves as decent, humane, and necessary.

Yet, another serious issue with the welfare state philosophy is that many people who are capable of caring for themselves

have no motivation to improve their lives when they can depend on the government to provide for them.

This often breeds resentment amongst those who do work when they are forced to pay for people who do not,

via ever-increasing taxes.

Such a system can fuel class warfare and prevent equality instead of obtaining it.

The concept of the welfare state may appear to be a good model on paper.

However, the reality of creating a truly equitable state has thus far been impossible to achieve.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-welfare-state.htm

It is an idea that has never worked.

Some parts of this have been considered proper to do, but as a blanket Welfare State it has never worked.

From communist or uber-socialist states on down.

Why might you ask is China now turning so capitalist, in such a big way, except at the political top.

Because the economic welfare state was unworkable even for a totalitarian Communist nation of a billion people.

Ayn Rand's view.

Welfare State

Since the things man needs for survival have to be produced, and nature does not guarantee the success of any human endeavor,

there is not and cannot be any such thing as a guaranteed economic security. The employer who gives you a job, has no guarantee

that his business will remain in existence, that his customers will continue to buy his products or services.

The customers have no guarantee that they will always be able and willing to trade with him, no guarantee of what their needs,

choices and incomes will be in the future. If you retire to a self-sustaining farm, you have no guarantee to protect you from

what a flood or a hurricane might do to your land and your crops. If you surrender everything to the government and give it total power

to plan the whole economy, this will not guarantee your economic security, but it will guarantee the descent of the entire nation

to a level of miserable poverty—

as the practical results of every totalitarian economy, communist or fascist, have demonstrated.

Morally, the promise of an impossible “right” to economic security is an infamous attempt to abrogate the concept of rights.

It can and does mean only one thing: a promise to enslave the men who produce, for the benefit of those who don’t.

“If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights

and condemned to slave labor.” (“Man’s Rights” in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.)

There can be no such thing as the right to enslave, i.e., the right to destroy rights.

The Ayn Rand Letter “A Preview,” The Ayn Rand Letter, I, 22, 2

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/welfare_state.html

I have lived in USA, and also Europe with 10 years in France; one of the most socialist of capitalist countries.

France has maybe come closest to making a welfare state work, and STILL hasn't really gotten it right.

There are many not contributing, and partly because people do not hire those they can't fire after 3 months

regardless of lack of effort or productivity. 'They can't fire me so I need not do too much' is a well known attitude.

And 10% chronic un-employment has resulted. There is an excellent level of services and life is not bad,

but the expectation of increases or no loses of these services, and the unions that feed on these fears,

regularly parallelized the country through work stoppages and national strikes,

further eroding the very productivity needed to sustain those services themselves.

Now this in no way means I do not want an increase in the fortunes and lives of the poor in Thailand,

what it means is it must be done in a sustainable way. And as proved innumerable times in history,

Welfare States per se are NOT sustainable.

I think we are talking about the safety bet kind of system. Thailand already has basically free health care and some social security which includes unemployment benefit, better medical care, child allowance etc. Thailand now also has the pension for all the old not in social security. The civil sevrants also have a welfare scheme. I think what we are talking about is really amalgamating these disparate schemes and making them part of a whole along with maybe increasing some amounts. If the schemes are joined up then effciency could well mean money available for recipients.

From what i rememeber too the social security scheme had generated a large amount of money that was protected by legislation from being "used" by ministers.

If we are talking safety net plus a little more than Thailand is well down the path already and there is no turning back as anybody trying to take it away would face poltical oblivion in a democracy. In fact I rememeber at the 2005 election when TRT candidates actually told constituents that if they didnt vote TRT they would lose their health care. Quite effective it was too with many believing it.

[TAWP]

A welfare state Thailand would be bad news for us ex-pats.

We would have to pay all the increased taxes required to fund a welfare system, such as on fuel, food, goods, transport, health care and services, but would not be entitled to any of the benefits.

Spoken like a true elite...........and this is what keeps welfare reform from happening in most countries........the rich protecting their interests and actively maintaining an eternal underclass, destined to serve and be seen, not heard.

Nonsense, it is not about being rich, it is about having to pay for nothing.

As a foreigner without PR you are entitled to very little. And don't ever expect that to change, even if social security was implemented.

But you would still be paying the same level of taxes as anyone else. Chances are, more, since you cannot do odd deductions for having lazy parents or out-of work family members, as they aren't here with you. And your average consumer products already have a much higher tax due to being imports (See: wine, electronics, cars). Think that would ever improve?

Now tell me, why would those of us here that isn't rich, that work locally, pay full tax on everything and more, but receive nothing, be happy to pay even more? I bet you expect us to take up a second job to pay for the increased cost a well-fair state system ALWAYS adds to it's workers?

There is a reason a poor person in Thailand much easier can survive than back home. For one, basic food doesn't have to cost an leg and an arm...

[selftaopath]

A welfare state is a good idea and would do a lot to lessen feelings of unfair divisions. However, it cannot be an unplanned rush job and the costing and tax to support it needs to be planned and a move to a welfare state will necessitate a redeveloped tax system understoood by all too.

There are many Thai business' that are not operating legally, but avoiding paying legitimate taxes. Corruption IMHO is at the root of most (if not all) of Thailand's decline.