Why I Find Thai A Difficult Language

[supergoondu]

As perverse as it may sound, I have stopped watching movies with subtitles.

The reason being they are translated word for word with no understanding of the nuances of the language.

An example would be,

I saw khun x yesterady

Q. How was he doing?

A. He was looking good.

Translated to Thai subtitles, Kao doo dee, a literal translation, that is of course correct, but is incorect in the fact it doesnt convey the meaning of the sentance.

The above is an example using English, I dare say the same can be repeated using, Japanese, Chinese or any other language you care to mention.

The problem isnt only peculiar to students of the Thai language, my wife (Thai) will watch movies in Thai with English subtitles, then not understand why I dont understand what she is trying to say to me in English.

Until the subtitles are translated by native speakers of the language in question, and not Thais who speak whatever language you care to mention, the problem will exist, thus hindering students of the Thai language, or Thais who are trying to master another language, these subtitles help no one, in fact may be more of a hinderance than an aid.

Good luck in your studies.

Remember the film 'Day After Tomorrow', due to territorial differences, the Taiwanese and the Chinese has named the movie title differently. The Taiwanese call it '明天过后 - tomorrow after or Thai equivalent (wan prung ni langjak) ' and the Chinese call it '后天 - that's equivalent to Thai (wan mareun ni)'.

Maybe you can tell me how the Thai name that film? And whether you prefer the Taiwanese style or the Chinese style. Keep in mind that there is no single word in English for 'the day after tomorrow'.

[loser1]

I have spent slightly more than a month making attempt to learn Thai. I am able to recognize all Thai Characters (Vowels and Consonants). I understand there are some rules in forming a Thai word (example how to read ร and รร and many many more). Somehow I feel that the most challenging for me was to break up the long strings of words into individual words

(example: แต่ใจเจ้ากรรมไม่รู้เลย ว่าเธอไม่ชอบเรา).

Definitely it would be easier to read if there are gaps in between the words or some block distinction ...

แต่ใจเจ้ากรรมไม่รู้เลย ว่าเธอไม่ชอบเรา

And what make reading Thai scripts difficult is the vowels can appear infront, behind, top or bottom of the consonant. And a Thai word can have open or closed Vowels...

So far those languages that I know of have clear distinction for a word, like Chinese (a character is a word and has a syllabus), English, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, French .... I am not sure if Burmese, Laos, Khmer, Arabic, Indian ... language behave like Thai (that there is no spacing between words).

Definitely I need to spend alot more time to get myself more acquainted with Thai Characters Set and those words formation rules, and hopefully I can read the Thai scripts as smooth as a Thai.

Do you have the same thought?

You ain't even got ya toes wet !!!

I started to learn 2 years ago and now reading Thai is like reading English, i may not understand the word but i can pronounce it. There are the exceptions like where there is a funny ending to a word that stops me in my tracks but English is worse for foreign learners.

Personally i advise people of average intelligence, like myself, to learn the script but forget the tone rules until you can read well and just remember how words are pronounced and just use lots of words in a sentence to create a context that leaves your victim in no doubt what you mean. I've found it so risky to think you can just whack out 3 words like a Thai to convey your needs unless you can pronounce it perfect don't bother.

Thai has so many words that have multiple meanings i sometimes think every word is like this just take my recent query - Toi or toy ... it has 5 meanings to move back, to throw, to strike, the spoken word or speech, and to be vile or despicable. Imagine trying to just convey your point in that one word and not pronouncing it perfectly. Luckily on the page it it spelled differently each time.

Theres a long way to go and even then it's near impossible and then there's all the different dialects etc.

[supergoondu]

So far those languages that I know of have clear distinction for a word, like Chinese (a character is a word and has a syllabus), English, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, French .... I am not sure if Burmese, Laos, Khmer, Arabic, Indian ... language behave like Thai (that there is no spacing between words).

I believe you have misinterpret my intention. My statement regarding Chinese, English, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, French is based on my general understanding that those languages break the word for easy read.

Mainland SE Asian languages don't mark word breaks, while Arabic and modern Indian languages do. (Sanskrit and Pali don't normally mark word boundaries when written in Indic scripts.) Vietnames does mark syllable boundaries, and these usually coincide with word boundaries.

Syllable boundaries are generally clear in Burmese and modern Lao. This is because of clear marking of consonants without following vowels in Burmese and because modern Lao lacks implicit vowels and silent consonants and has very few consonant clusters.

Until you start to separate words in Thai by recognising words, you can go a long way by using preposed vowels, sara a and thanthakhat (not on ro) to locate syllable boundaries. Remember that syllables with mai ai, mai ao and sara a do not have unsilenced final consonants. Implicitly silenced ro is a problem, as in สามารถ [M]sa[F]maat.

That's a great reply, I shall take a closer look at those words formation rules and exceptions. I would like to pick up Thai characters, for it is very difficult to travel in Thailand where few of their sign boards are in English (at least in CM). And it is always useful and fun to learn another language and culture.

[Rionoir]

I don't think the OP was trying to "big note" himself, but some certainly are... LoL

To the OP... just keep studying, after a while you won't even think about the fact that the words are all connected. A month obviously is enough time to learn the alphabet, but it's not enough time to expect your mind to do this automatically. But it will happen.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Rionoir

[supergoondu]

You ain't even got ya toes wet !!!

I started to learn 2 years ago and now reading Thai is like reading English, i may not understand the word but i can pronounce it. There are the exceptions like where there is a funny ending to a word that stops me in my tracks but English is worse for foreign learners.

Personally i advise people of average intelligence, like myself, to learn the script but forget the tone rules until you can read well and just remember how words are pronounced and just use lots of words in a sentence to create a context that leaves your victim in no doubt what you mean. I've found it so risky to think you can just whack out 3 words like a Thai to convey your needs unless you can pronounce it perfect don't bother.

Thai has so many words that have multiple meanings i sometimes think every word is like this just take my recent query - Toi or toy ... it has 5 meanings to move back, to throw, to strike, the spoken word or speech, and to be vile or despicable. Imagine trying to just convey your point in that one word and not pronouncing it perfectly. Luckily on the page it it spelled differently each time.

Theres a long way to go and even then it's near impossible and then there's all the different dialects etc.

Indeed it is still a long long way. Though I know day is 'wan', yet earlier I still need to refer to dictionary to verify if it is a short or long vowel 'a'. And as in my earlier posting, I would temporary ignore the tone ....

Thanks for your reply.

[supergoondu]

哑巴吃黄莲──有苦自己知（或“有苦说不出”）

Earlier I mentioned that when one mentioned the first half, one infact refers to second half.

That is if I said 'I am 哑巴吃黄莲', infact I intended to say 'I am 有苦自己知'.

Literary 哑巴吃黄莲' means a dumb person eating lotus seed. I doubt you understand what it meant be 'I am a dumb person eating lotus seed'.

Fortunately the Google Transate is intelligent enough to translate 哑巴吃黄莲, to 'Dumb to suffer in silence' thus it means 'I am like a dumb suffering in silence.'

[loser1]

哑巴吃黄莲──有苦自己知（或"有苦说不出"）

Earlier I mentioned that when one mentioned the first half, one infact refers to second half.

That is if I said 'I am 哑巴吃黄莲', infact I intended to say 'I am 有苦自己知'.

Literary 哑巴吃黄莲' means a dumb person eating lotus seed. I doubt you understand what it meant be 'I am a dumb person eating lotus seed'.

Fortunately the Google Transate is intelligent enough to translate 哑巴吃黄莲, to 'Dumb to suffer in silence' thus it means 'I am like a dumb suffering in silence.'

How long did it take you to become comfortable with this Korean ? Is there a tone to it?

People say to me ' How can you read that Thai' and i say reading it is the easy bit, understanding it back at speed from a deep voiced male taxi driver is the test, it has an alphabet including vowels and the vowels aren't just the a e o i u of English but lots of different vowels but more precise. I love the vowels of Thai.

It's funny really coz people try to learn Thai but then you realise that the people you want to speak with; the bar girl, the hotel worker, the taxi driver, the concierge etc. don't speak book Thai they speak street Thai and Isaan but it's like that in most languages i suppose.

Got to go Russell Brands on the telly

[Thewayup]

Yes, you are right, I am still at preliminary stage in getting familiar to Thai Characters and the rules in word formation. I still have tremendous difficulties in reading, understanding and making sense to their local newspaper HEADLINES. And when watching Thai MTV, I will never be able to follow the verses. I had tried to look on my shampoo and shower cream bottles and trying to make sense to those words (not sentences). And you shall also know that there is another Thailand Font Set (where you can see a S or a reflected C), till now I still trying hard to remember those Font. For years you know S, and now you need to treat S to be R, I have to admit I cannot react fast enough. I have to stare a word for awhile and have to verify it pronunication via a Thai-English dictionary. I have to say I have put in considerable effort in reading Thai characters.

I found the different writing styles frustrating when I was first learning Thai too - I spent a long time learning the alphabet, and I still couldn't read signs on the street or in the food courts because of the font style. There are quite a few different styles (they have cute fonts to make Thai characters look like Chinese, Burmese, Japanese, Korean characters too).

There are hundreds of Thai signs Here to help you practice : )

[Tod Daniels]

Onceyouhaveanadequatevocabularyinwhateverlanguageyou'retryingtolearn,

you'llquitequicklyfigureoutyoudon'treadANYlanguageletterbyletter,

butbyidentifyingwordsorwordclustersinagivensentence.

I am sure most engrish speaking/reading people have very little trouble reading the above sentence even though the words are not spaced out.

Reading thai is all about knowing the most common vocabulary words so that when you see them you know them already. While I applaud people for learning the tone rules first when learning thai; just being able to pronounce a word correctly does not give you the knowledge of the words meaning if that word is not in your current vocabulary.

That only comes from many hours of practice spent on learning thai vocab. There is no shortcut to it at all.

P/S: the very stylish fonts can be indeed be frustrating. Once you know enough recognized thai vocabulary, you can quite quickly work out the words in a sentence with wacky fonts by identifying the words you do know.

Good luck, don't give up, it is all about vocab, vocab, vocab..

[supergoondu]

哑巴吃黄莲──有苦自己知（或"有苦说不出"）

Earlier I mentioned that when one mentioned the first half, one infact refers to second half.

That is if I said 'I am 哑巴吃黄莲', infact I intended to say 'I am 有苦自己知'.

Literary 哑巴吃黄莲' means a dumb person eating lotus seed. I doubt you understand what it meant be 'I am a dumb person eating lotus seed'.

Fortunately the Google Transate is intelligent enough to translate 哑巴吃黄莲, to 'Dumb to suffer in silence' thus it means 'I am like a dumb suffering in silence.'

How long did it take you to become comfortable with this Korean ? Is there a tone to it?

People say to me ' How can you read that Thai' and i say reading it is the easy bit, understanding it back at speed from a deep voiced male taxi driver is the test, it has an alphabet including vowels and the vowels aren't just the a e o i u of English but lots of different vowels but more precise. I love the vowels of Thai.

It's funny really coz people try to learn Thai but then you realise that the people you want to speak with; the bar girl, the hotel worker, the taxi driver, the concierge etc. don't speak book Thai they speak street Thai and Isaan but it's like that in most languages i suppose.

Got to go Russell Brands on the telly

That's not Korean, they are Chinese characters. In Korean, the Chinese characters are called hanja. And for Japanese, the Chinese characters are called kanji.

However unlike the Japanese scripts, you won't be able to see any Chinese characters in any of Korean texts. The Korean texts are now written in hangul only (please do not quote me). So if you use Google Translate to translate hanja characters (from Korean to English), you will not be able to get any result.

Here's the hangul characters: 한문 - which means Chinese Characters

And here's the hanja equivalent for (한문 - which means Chinese Characters): 漢文

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanja

Hope it clarifies.

Edited September 28, 2009 by supergoondu

[supergoondu]

Yes, you are right, I am still at preliminary stage in getting familiar to Thai Characters and the rules in word formation. I still have tremendous difficulties in reading, understanding and making sense to their local newspaper HEADLINES. And when watching Thai MTV, I will never be able to follow the verses. I had tried to look on my shampoo and shower cream bottles and trying to make sense to those words (not sentences). And you shall also know that there is another Thailand Font Set (where you can see a S or a reflected C), till now I still trying hard to remember those Font. For years you know S, and now you need to treat S to be R, I have to admit I cannot react fast enough. I have to stare a word for awhile and have to verify it pronunication via a Thai-English dictionary. I have to say I have put in considerable effort in reading Thai characters.

I found the different writing styles frustrating when I was first learning Thai too - I spent a long time learning the alphabet, and I still couldn't read signs on the street or in the food courts because of the font style. There are quite a few different styles (they have cute fonts to make Thai characters look like Chinese, Burmese, Japanese, Korean characters too).

There are hundreds of Thai signs Here to help you practice : )

Thanks for the link.

I have to admit, the other Thai fonts (where a S refers to ร) are cute. However for a beginner like me, I use the small circle to differentiate the (พ ผ , น ม , ... ), and without the small circle I really have to think hard. Moreover the very first written rule for writing the Thai characters was probably 'the small circle is the starting point for all Thai characters'.

Anyway I am still not deterred yet.

[supergoondu]

Onceyouhaveanadequatevocabularyinwhateverlanguageyou'retryingtolearn,

you'llquitequicklyfigureoutyoudon'treadANYlanguageletterbyletter,

butbyidentifyingwordsorwordclustersinagivensentence.

I am sure most engrish speaking/reading people have very little trouble reading the above sentence even though the words are not spaced out.

Reading thai is all about knowing the most common vocabulary words so that when you see them you know them already. While I applaud people for learning the tone rules first when learning thai; just being able to pronounce a word correctly does not give you the knowledge of the words meaning if that word is not in your current vocabulary.

That only comes from many hours of practice spent on learning thai vocab. There is no shortcut to it at all.

P/S: the very stylish fonts can be indeed be frustrating. Once you know enough recognized thai vocabulary, you can quite quickly work out the words in a sentence with wacky fonts by identifying the words you do know.

Good luck, don't give up, it is all about vocab, vocab, vocab..

Yes I have no problem in reading theenglishsentencewithoutspace, however I won't be able to read as smooth. Imagine the MTV video has the following lyrics for your favorite song.

i'msittinghereintheboringroomit'sjustanotherrainysundayafternoon

i'mwastingmytimeigotnothingtodoi'mhangingaroundi'mwaitingforyou

butnothingeverhappensandiwonder

i'mdrivingaroundinmycari'mdrivingtoofasti'mdrivingtoofar

i'dliketochangemypointofviewifeelsolonelyi'mwaitingforyou

butnothingeverhappensandiwonder

(I had deliberately removed the space and having lower case for all characters)

I wondering if now you can sing it well.

I would like to again clarify that I am simply amused by the Thai characters and the way the Thai sentences are written. I believe any languages have their 'tough' parts. For Chinese it is probably the Chinese characters, and for English (for me) the toughest part is the grammatical rules and tenses.

[desi]

I am sure most engrish speaking/reading people have very little trouble reading the above sentence even though the words are not spaced out.

The run-on text is not the bother. Losing where I am on a page is.

I'm not very good at reading... so... when someone more experienced glances away, can they easily find where they were on a page?

Btw - this was brought up in another conversation (not by me). It was not my original observation, but an 'ah hah!'

Edited September 28, 2009 by desi

[RickBradford]

^

Ah hah!

I have exactly the same problem. I can read quite well when I concentrate, but the moment I turn away to look at something else, and turn back to the page, it looks like a mass of indecipherable squiggles. And I have no idea where I was in the text.

BTW, my latest way of improving my reading is to keep my eyes moving, and speak word 1 as I am reading word 2, i.e always reading the next word while speaking the previous one. I surprise myself with how quick and far I can go before I meet a stinker like แผนกเกษตรศาสตร์ and blow up....

[loser1]

^

Ah hah!

I have exactly the same problem. I can read quite well when I concentrate, but the moment I turn away to look at something else, and turn back to the page, it looks like a mass of indecipherable squiggles. And I have no idea where I was in the text.

BTW, my latest way of improving my reading is to keep my eyes moving, and speak word 1 as I am reading word 2, i.e always reading the next word while speaking the previous one. I surprise myself with how quick and far I can go before I meet a stinker like แผนกเกษตรศาสตร์ and blow up....

Oh yes thats exactly the words that get me reaching for my grandfathers ww2 service revolver

The problem i find is with words like แผนก is i read them as 'pair nok' but always feel i have got it wrong. On checking in my new 'Thai2English' freshly downloaded lifesaver software i can see its read 'pa nairk' and now it seems obvious it's just that style of word structure is not very common and i forget to look for it.

[kokesaat]

Words like แผนก แสดง are difficult at first, but when you encounter them often enough in text, they stick out like sore thumbs.

That was the problem I had with the Benjawan Becker books.....she introduced some new vocabulary in one lesson, but seemed to rarely repeat it in another. That's one of the reasons I've enjoyed the Gething Intermediate series.....plenty of new vocabulary in each lesson and it's repeated frequently enough to help reinforce the brain cells.

[worldfun]

great topic

I've only been at it (thai reading/speaking intensive beginners course) for a few weeks, but almost at the point of 'reading' the first few words with the limited letters 'learnt/taught'.

not sure I'm about to give up or excited - probably somewhere in the middle, but somehow I guess I can imagine the lack of spacing ain't going to be the wirst enemy at least long term...

surely I can guess the variety of differing fonts which seem to depict 'letters' quite different could be one!

someone mentioned the multiple of identical/similar words (in spelling/pronouncation) having multiple meanings is a major challenge & will remain so until the vocab can be build up.

well if not anything else I guess it should be taken as a cultural journey

oh by the way whats with the referral to german being hard to read? german is my 3rd language (but from same family as my native), but I just cant get what you mean by it or comparing it to thai???