Can Farang Become Monk With Injury

[tomahawk]

Hello everyone. I was planning to go to wat for a while to be ordained as monk but I have back injury and cannot sit for long time as monks do. Is it possible to get some kind of permission to sit on chair or in some fashion other than cross legged during prayers and such at wat? Thank you.

[Brucenkhamen]

Hello everyone. I was planning to go to wat for a while to be ordained as monk but I have back injury and cannot sit for long time as monks do. Is it possible to get some kind of permission to sit on chair or in some fashion other than cross legged during prayers and such at wat? Thank you.

It's probably possible, it will depend on your preceptor or abbott. It's not so likely in a forest wat, your chances are better in a village wat or meditation centre or in a wat in the west.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Brucenkhamen

[tomahawk]

Thanks Bruce.

[phetaroi]

Hello everyone. I was planning to go to wat for a while to be ordained as monk but I have back injury and cannot sit for long time as monks do. Is it possible to get some kind of permission to sit on chair or in some fashion other than cross legged during prayers and such at wat? Thank you.

This doesn't answer your question, but I walked into some quiet little temple just north of Chinatown a few weeks ago...very friendly monks there and it was a pleasure visiting. But they had a monk inside the ubosot "on duty"...who was quite fat and quite a humorous sight sleeping in a recliner.

[agent69]

If you want it badly, be persistent. When people talk about luck, they usually talk about being in the right place at the right time. Well, you can try being in many places most of your time. That will increase your chance of being lucky.

[cyb]

The simple answer to the op's question is yes you can.

Never mind where you are in Thailand they will accomodate you.

[chutai]

Hello everyone. I was planning to go to wat for a while to be ordained as monk but I have back injury and cannot sit for long time as monks do.

If it's not considered a disability, e.g. from having webbed fingers, and all else. Then you'll be ok. Sad but true,

[jasreeve17]

The simple answer to the op's question is yes you can.

Never mind where you are in Thailand they will accomodate you.

I agree.

Thais and especially Thai buddhists will go out of their way to accomadate you.

If you want help then please contact me. I won't help you! But, my missus will. She has daily contact with several of the big temples and will be pleased to sort you out an appropriate position. When I say sort out, I mean she will call a few senior monks from temples to help your ordination. They expect nothing from you in return.

I hasten to add, I hate religions, especially this one... But, I respect the view of others and know that Thai buddhists are very welcoming to foreigners.

[fabianfred]

I hasten to add, I hate religions, especially this one...

a strange admission.... care to explain further?..

....of all religions Buddhism is usually the most accepted by those who dislike religions in general.

[jasreeve17]

I hasten to add, I hate religions, especially this one...

a strange admission.... care to explain further?..

....of all religions Buddhism is usually the most accepted by those who dislike religions in general.

Thank you for the opportunity.

But, before I start, I hasten to add that I respect others who have a different viewpoint from my own, even if their viewpoint seems ridiculously naive and uninformed to me.

My first premise is that religions I grew up with (Church of England, Jewish and Catholic) seemed to me, from an early age, as nothing more than a business. However, folk like my grans (one Jewish, one CoE) were happy through their religion, and their happiness made me happy, thus I appreciated that fold could find happiness through religion, and I believe that is a good thing. Any way you find happiness is a good thing (short of murdering, child abuse...).

Year later, after realizing the sexiest and most vulnerable girls were devout religous sorts, and after many one night stands, intense and great sex with such ladies, I moved to Outer Mongolia.

Whilst there I met many Tibetan Mahayana monks. What they believed in didn't 'float my boat', but they were very nice folk with nice beliefs and I liked them. I even wore a nice little red stringed pendant Buddhivista; not out of religous belief, but out of general liking for the people and their ideas - a kind of general commraderie... I spent lots of time with these people, and we got to know each other well.

Years later I moved to Thailand. From day 1, I saw foreigners all around who'd been to a 5 day retreat in India and just kneeeew Buddhism sooooo well... I also saw fantastically rich temples with ATMs at the main gates, then you must pass a shop to buy sheets of guilt gold, then you must put the gold on the elephant, and, then, eventually, you're allowed into the temple to meditate... This reminded me of all the the things I hated about Christianity.

Years later, I realised that it's not the religion itself, but the organized, money making nature of these religions that repulese me.

Actually, I have a lot of time for the basic teachings of all religions. I find history and theology fascinating. However, after eight years I am still repulsed by Thai Therevada buddhism, as I am the vatican and their practices. Money, money, money. Good folk like Buddha and Jesus did not help us, so that a few thousand years later their names could be used to make money...

I, in my 40 plus countries of travel, have never been to a country where religion is so abused as here. Just my opinion. I am open to the idea that I may be wrong...

None the less. My missus spends half the week at the temples (funded by me...), meets and knows many decent folk and she is very genuine in her beliefs. I don't agree with her, but I know she is in a good position to help the OP - hence my offer.

[tomahawk]

Thank you everyone. Chutai did you mean that disabled people cannot be monks? If this is true then it is sad. Jas I understand exactly what you are saying. My girlfriend is very devout Budddhist but won't go to wat near house because they have minimum donations and there are people here who are well off and this is no problem, but many others that are quite poor and this is a hardship for them. However on the other hand I know of other wats where they do a great deal of good with money they collect.

[rockyysdt]

Hello everyone. I was planning to go to wat for a while to be ordained as monk but I have back injury and cannot sit for long time as monks do. Is it possible to get some kind of permission to sit on chair or in some fashion other than cross legged during prayers and such at wat? Thank you.

Hi Tomahawk.

I sincerely hope you're able achieve your ordination.

I'd go about choosing a suitable Wat, perhaps as a novice (retreatant) & once you find a place you're comfortable joining then approach them about being a monk.

I have read somewhere that some places have bizarre rules about "Qualifications for those to be ordained".

This is one I found at the Dhamakaya groups website.

Those who suffer from the following diseases;

• Leprosy, Measles or Pox, fungus of skin.
  
• Skeletal deformity including handicapped, blind or deft.
  
• Debilitating weakness.
  

I don't know if this is common thing or whether just for this group.

This is their general criteria:

• Male, aged between 20 and 55
  
• Of good health, free from infectious diseases and drugs dependence;
  
• Content with non-vegetarian diet and simple accommodation provided by the temple;
  
• Free from commitments that might interrupt them during the course such as examinations or placements;
  
• Willing to strictly follow the program and instructions of the teaching monks, and
  
• Willing to strictly observe the Buddhist Eight Precepts as part of the training. The Eight Precepts involve abstaining from taking the life of any creature, stealing, unchastely, speaking falsely or abusively or maliciously, consuming alcohol or intoxicants, taking food after midday, singing or dancing romantic songs, wearing cosmetics, sleeping on luxurious high seats or beds.
  

I think it's down to how debilitating your back injury is.

Maybe others can comment on whether it's essential to be able to sit in a lotus or burmese position in order to achieve enlightenment.

Edited October 7, 2009 by rockyysdt

[tomahawk]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

[chutai]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old.

That which was posted is only a general criteria. The actual Vinaya rules are in fact much stricter concerning disability. I researched this in some depth at one stage and was saddened by a seeming lack of compassion. Although I did contact an Acharn in Burma and was informed that physical disability* wouldn't elicit such exclusion there.

*The rules also cover 'mental disability' but of course that can't be seen.

[camerata]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old.

Dhammakaya is not an orthodox sect. I think the maximum age of 55 is their own invention. The major two sects in Thailand wouldn't worry about that.

[rockyysdt]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

As has been intimated by others & myself these rules may be negotiable.

Don't give up. Be single minded about what you want to achieve.

Continue your practice & explore Wats as a novice (retreatant).

I'm sure, if you can't be officially ordained, & I'm not saying this is impossible, you might be able to become a permanent retreatant (wear white instead of ochre), & never leave the Wat.

Monkhood gives you the resource, guidance & time to devote yourself to the path, but ordination isn't the only way to enlightenment.

Edited October 8, 2009 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old.

Dhammakaya is not an orthodox sect. I think the maximum age of 55 is their own invention. The major two sects in Thailand wouldn't worry about that.

Thanks Camerata.

I was previously unaware of such limitations.

I would have thought ones unfettered latter years are a perfect time to focus on the path.

Having hit the posted age, your response keeps my options open.

Edited October 8, 2009 by rockyysdt

[jasreeve17]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

These places want to accept you and help you. Your age will not be a barrier. My missus' dad just spent a few months in a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge temple (one I particularly dislike, but they do seem to treat my missus well, so what do I know...), and he is over 55.

[chutai]

name='tomahawk' post='3062447' date='2009-10-08 13:53:00']Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

As has been intimated by others & myself these rules may be negotiable.

That's not the case I'm afraid. In Theravada such rules are as written in stone. I had lengthy correspondence with who you may know as Phra Farang , long before he de-robed and he , although sympathetic, couldn't offer any flexibility on that which was stipulated by the First Patriach.

Although those practising within the Thai-Theravada tradition in the UK did suggest "arguing within the Dhamma" why these rules should no longer be applicable. But it would, I believe, take several lifetimes to change what is a monolith of rules within organised religion.

Those that suggest a relative autonomy from wat to wat, have not tackled this problem head on.

But true you really do not need to become a monk to follow the Dharma. In fact there is no Buddhism outside of everyday life, and life in turn should challenge religion rather than the other way around.

[camerata]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old.

Dhammakaya is not an orthodox sect. I think the maximum age of 55 is their own invention. The major two sects in Thailand wouldn't worry about that.

Thanks Camerata.

I was previously unaware of such limitations.

I would have thought ones unfettered latter years are a perfect time to focus on the path.

Having hit the posted age, your response keeps my options open.

I talked to my Dhammakaya colleagues today and they assured me 55 is just a guideline. The main thing is that you are able "to look after yourself." I suspect it is more than that. Dhammakaya are very image-conscious. Basically they are like Mormons. They place a high value on looking wholesome. I reckon if you look healthy and wholesome at 65 they'll take you, decrepit and tattooed and they probably won't.

[jasreeve17]

I hasten to add that I am not promoting this place...

For the OP: I was told that if you contacted these folk they have lots of foreigners, many are older gents. Worst ways you can do the meditation retreat as stage one then become a monk after that if all is well. Which is a sensible route anyways isn't it?

http://www.meditationthai.org/docs/en/index.html

There's lots of information on the DMC channel (website of the same name), easy to find on the internet. Now, I find these people quite worrying because they're very big and very commercial, but as far as I can see they 'help' many people, especially foreigners. I do know a few people that go to these temples and they are honest and decent people...

Your age is not a final barrier!

Edited October 8, 2009 by jasreeve17

[chutai]

They place a high value on looking wholesome.

Interestingly. The most fundamental reason that I could find as to why those with a disability were to be denied ordination was that having such also meant an inability to reflect 'the purity of the Buddha's body'.

My goodness, what is that all about ?

[somchaiq]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

Many Thai deciding to become a Monk after retirement. They definitely past the 55 Years. I believe that there are many ways to get around this rule, as long as you follow the others.

[tomahawk]

Thanks everyone. This is very interesting discussion and shows that there are many forms and interpretations of teachings of Lord Buddha. My back is improving every day and perhaps in the long term the age limit may prove more of an obstacle than the physical. However the main point as many brothers mentioned here is that one does not need to be a monk to attain enlightenment anyway.

[rockyysdt]

I talked to my Dhammakaya colleagues today and they assured me 55 is just a guideline. The main thing is that you are able "to look after yourself." I suspect it is more than that. Dhammakaya are very image-conscious. Basically they are like Mormons. They place a high value on looking wholesome. I reckon if you look healthy and wholesome at 65 they'll take you, decrepit and tattooed and they probably won't.

On first reading I interpreted the word "Mormons" as a similar sounding but different word.

I once read that when traveling on the path with an open heart, guides will appear in ones life to help one move to the next stage.

Hopefully we'll know when false paths & dead ends appear.

Edited October 9, 2009 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

I once read that when traveling on the path with an open heart, guides will appear in ones life to help one move to the next stage.

Let's hope so. I usually hear this in relationship to Tibetan Buddhism, which features a very close guru-student relationship.

[chutai]

I once read that when traveling on the path with an open heart, guides will appear in ones life to help one move to the next stage.

Let's hope so. I usually hear this in relationship to Tibetan Buddhism, which features a very close guru-student relationship.

Yes. I think so, camerata .Also in Tibetan Buddhism there is a saying that you don't find your guru , but your guru finds you. Which comes close to that quote.

Rather than being some celestial force, which could be read into what rockyysdt quoted, in Mahayana Buddhism the disciple mentor/guru relationship is a key factor in realising the attainment of the bodhisattva way.

By developing a shared heart, spirit and even vision for the future it's been said that it ...

The drama of the oneness of mentor and disciple, in which there is a mutual resonance and response between the Buddha's resolve to save all living things and the resolve of the disciple who seeks to embody and propagate the Buddha's teaching, is epitomised in this expression, "This is what I heard."

Although we shouldn't neglect that our guide is also in utilising our own Buddha nature and Buddha wisdom that will definitely emerge through actual practice.

[bankei]

That's not the case I'm afraid. In Theravada such rules are as written in stone.

Such rules concerning ordination requirements may be set i stone, but they can be conveniently ignored when convenient. There is a rule that those with debt cannot ordain, yet many monks have debts. I myself ordained with debts. Also there is a requirement to have your parents permission, but this is also largely disregarded - it is assumed no parent would reject to this.

[bankei]

In Sydney I was at a Thai temple once and there was a fat Sri Lankan monk present. All the monks were sitting on the floor eating, but he was on the end sitting in a chair and portable table - obviously was unable to sit on the ground.

Also my Thai friend known as 'the fat man' was able to ordain even though he could not kneel down during the ceremony. I missed it, but hear that he made so sort of attempt at bending over and that was acceptable.

[khaowong1]

Thank you Rocky That was very interesting and helpful. By these rules I am not qualified even if not from injury because I am too old. I never considered this to be a problem but perhaps it is. I would not have problem following other 8 rules and even have been not eating after 12 pm and find I can do it though quite hungry.

Age limit is not a hard and fast rule.. It all depends on the Chao Wat, the abbot of the temple.. I am 67 years old and ordained last July.. Most of the answers I see here are correct, except the age one. I have an old injury from Vietnam war and have a hard time sitting for a length of time on the floor also.. I use a small pillow inside my monks bag to sit on.. no one cares, they may joke a little about it, but in a friendly manner. The most important thing is, being dedicated to learning and following the Buddha's teachings. If you can show the abbot at the temple you want to join, that your are sincere, you will have no problems. Good luck..