Highhopes To Be Asia's International Education Hub

[toptuan]

I teach in an international program at a major Thai university and a good friend teaches at another international program in the same university.

Both International programs are absolute crap quality. They were created for the financial windfall and not with quality education in mind.

Foreign students at our university readily admit they come here simply to get a degree at a cheap price, and most would like to work in Thailand, realizing their degrees are worth next to nothing back home...

Did the enrollment of foreign students at your uni grow over the past few years?

If it did, then it probably doesn't matter why they come, they still want something out of your "crap" programs.

If your uni didn't see increase in foreign students numbers - you are doing something wrong and should probably ask for govt assistance in line with this new policy.

Yes, it's grown 300% in 3 years. From 1 to 3 students. Just kidding. The program has grown from about 150 to 500 students in that time. Mostly from southern China, with a few from Laos (10), Japan (4), Cambodia (24), and USA (2). The school is pulling out all the stops on promotion, and has signed several MOU's with foreign universities and colleges.

Do you think they should stop and send everyone back home? Or that they have no chance of attracting any more students?

Does your program face competition from Vietnam or Malaysia in attracting those students?

Do you think they should stop and send everyone back home?

Not necessarily. As I mentioned in my first post, most of the students want to stay in Thailand and work here. A degree, however crappy, will be a feather in their cap here, and should help them land a job. Remember, it's a "form without substance" culture.

Secondly, Thai employers/managers here would rather hire a foreign Asian person (for jobs such as translators, exporters, etc.) who is already familiar with the culture and can speak Thai. This helps the Thai company/manager not have to move out of their comfort zones in employing a foreign national.

Or that they have no chance of attracting any more students?

Based on the recent increase of enrollment, I would say they have a good chance of attracting more. Now, they're on a roll. Also, word is getting around, especially in southern China.

Does your program face competition from Vietnam or Malaysia in attracting those students?

I don't know about the international programs in these other countries, other than I know we don't we have any students from those countries. Don't know if they're staying home or opting for other Asian/western institutions. I'm guessing the latter, because I am friends with (and regularly communicate with) educators in the two countries you mentioned.

Here's what they tell me:

Generally, the Vietnamese student is more motivated and studious than the average Thai student, so education is a bit better simply based on the caliber of students (many of whom eventually become teachers of course). This overall better quality probably extends to any international programs there.

In Malaysia, only Kuala Lumpur has one or two decent-quality universities, but the cream-of-the-crop Malaysian students still opt for higher education in Singapore or Chula/Tammasart.

Edited October 14, 2009 by toptuan

[eggomaniac]

Mjdjbs protesteth too much.

Yes, when people lie and spread around misinformation, it generally annoys me greatly.

Therefore, the OP should make you absolutely livid with fairy tale projections and false claims.

Edited October 14, 2009 by eggomaniac

[PeaceBlondie]

Can we please all lower the tone and not get personal and insulting?

[Plus]

Toptuan, from your answers I don't see any reason why posters here should ROFL about Thailand's ambitions in providing education to international students.

People are coming, and will continue to do so, and their numbers will grow.

Another question - should the government withdraw any support universities might need to provide better education for international students?

[henryalleman]

The younger sister of a friend failed her exam in accounting at Ramkanghaeng University. During the time before the second try I never saw her studying, and when I asked her why, I got a perfect Thai answer: "I know everything already, they just asked the wrong questions!"

Same my grandson, failed Ramkanghaeng, reason. The professor did not ask question who were described in his textbook. The family accepted his excuses and found the proffesor was wrong. The next year he believed the professor would ask the same quetions, he was mistaken again. At last after 7 years he got his degree. Did he learn or remember something worthwile? I seriously doubt it.

education+Thailand= FARCE

[henryalleman]

Most people here didn't even read the article. Most are probably over 50, which means they studied when education in the West held a lower quality than in Thailand today. Many probably don't even hold a degree. This is not a forum for intellectual discussion of any kind.

Most of 50 years olds who went to high school had Latin and ancient Greek in their curriculum.

And everybody who is familiar or work in the educational system will be agree that the level of education was much higher 30 and 40 years ago.

The blatant proof was given many times by television series who put students of today in the education en teaching system from the 50's. They all failed in the test from that time be it grammar, science or mathematics.

[henryalleman]

Our youngest daughter has just started at Hull University, French + Spanish. She reckons there's about 40+ Thai freshers doing a wide spread of degrees. I have heard of much larger numbers in London and Manchester. Bearing in mind the cost over 3 years it looks like quite a few Thai parents are voting with their wallets on the worth of a Thai University degree.

Several children of my Thai family study in the UK, Spain and Australia and the States. They simply think that an degree from abroad give them more oppertunities in their carreer.

But I must confess that the main reason why they study abroad is because they failed to entrance Chulalongkorn. Let their children study at Chulalongkorn is still the ultimate dream of every parent. My granddaughter of 16 is already bussy tuttoring to pass the entrance exam.

If Chulalongkorn is not possible and they have the money they send them abroad.

[henryalleman]

Ok, don't try it if you're too shy and/or afraid the Thai person will find it too incredible. However, if you're a teacher, you could do it as a simple pop quiz. Ask your students to write the countries that border Thailand, and next to each country, ask them to write the names of two cities within. You could take it a step further, and ask them to write which direction each country is in relation to Thailand (N,S,E,W). To make it clearer, give an example. For example, France, which has land borders with Spain, Italy, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and Andorra (though it would be hard to name 2 cities in Andorra).

You forgot two countries, Luxemburg and Monaco LOL

[eggomaniac]

Toptuan, from your answers I don't see any reason why posters here should ROFL about Thailand's ambitions in providing education to international students.

People are coming, and will continue to do so, and their numbers will grow.

Another question - should the government withdraw any support universities might need to provide better education for international students?

Not I, nor possibly anyone else, said anything remotely similar to your above comments. Don't disagree with Comments that were NOT made. [r u my x wife in disguise? (:+P

Of course Thailand can strive to attract foreign students and 'attempt' to improve the ranking of their institutions. I would applaud such success, if and when... According some of the Posters, Thailand has 2 universities ranked in the top 500. A 'reasonable' goal would be to get a few in the top 400 within 5 years, remembering the competition from other Nations is intense and rooted.

I have not been rude or insulting to any of the Posters but its nearly impossible to 'respect' the OP, which is hilariously inaccurate and roseate.

Just explain how Thailand will, within 300 years even, supplant Japan as the Hub for International education! Can you?

The article claims to achieve this in 5 years, I don't theenk so! It claims enrollment will jump from 30,000 to 100,000 in that time. ROFL [Can I buy shares please, triple my money?]

The OP and one other Poster, on anecdotal evidence, claims that Thailand ranks with top Universities of the World. That is just a dishonest statement, END of story. Japan has 5 or 6 ranked in the top 100; Thailand 2 in the top 500.

In goal setting courses they teach that reasonable outcomes will not be attained if reasonable goals are not set. I would love to see Thailand set achivable goals and reach them.

Getting 4 or 5 universities in the top 500 within 5 years would be a step in the right direction. How? One important factor, to achieve this goal, would be to increase the overall English literacy rate in Thailand. <<< This IS a factor by which International bodies make their lists!!! [Thailand should have a referendum on whether they want to be a "World Player" or maintain a living museum posture. This second option might be a good thing???]

This Topic was about the 'growing' improvement of education, but they must have 'smoked a pipe' to reach their Outer Limits conclusions and 'forecasts'.

----

The Title of the OP should have, more accurately, read something like this.

Thai Minister has impossible high hopes Thailand is quickly becoming the Asian Hub for International education.

[Dakhar]

Reality:

Thailand is not a blissful place, each one of the suposed top schools are in locations that do not inspire a person to want to live there

Thai degrees in the "out side world" are considered of little value.

People in search of HIGH quality education do not bargain hunt.

See there, that is REALITY, no comments about the education, because really that is of little matter. Education is a PRODUCT, and those in tune with reality, knows the key to sales is location location location.

[PeaceBlondie]

Being surrounded by slums never hurt the Univ. of Chicago.

[toptuan]

Is it possible that your friend never actually graduated, but, tried to transfer all his credits to a uni in Australia part way through his course?

Good try, but no.

So, either he graduated with a very low GPA, or, he didn't graduate from a "top" uni at all, but perhaps from somewhere such as Bangkok Uni or Ramkhamhaeng.

Which one is it?

You're a bit thick. Neither. I told you already.

[jayboy]

Being surrounded by slums never hurt the Univ. of Chicago.

or Yale, which is an island of beauty imbedded in New Haven, not exactly a slum perhaps but distinctly dodgy from a British and I would imagine an American eye.

[madjbs]

Is it possible that your friend never actually graduated, but, tried to transfer all his credits to a uni in Australia part way through his course?

Good try, but no.

So, either he graduated with a very low GPA, or, he didn't graduate from a "top" uni at all, but perhaps from somewhere such as Bangkok Uni or Ramkhamhaeng.

Which one is it?

You're a bit thick. Neither. I told you already.

No you didn't. As I told you (and as a teacher you should already know this, but then maybe you are just a TEFLer?), students from top unis with a semi decent GPA have no problem getting into MA courses at well know unis all around the world, they certainly would not be required to do it again.

[Publicus]

2nd rate didactic rote driven non questioning mills?

Absolute rubbish. The top unis are actually pretty good and could compete with mid level western unis quite easily. You obviously have never been to one.

What percent of all Thai unis comprise the "top unis" in international education and could compete with mid level Western unis? Ten percent? Five percent? Two percent?

Who are the faculty of these particular Thai hub unis that are on the international lecture circuit contributing to advances in the theory and/or practice of international education? Or contributing to the journals? Doing the original research?

Which unis in which countries are raiding the hub Thai unis' international programs to get all the original Thai geniuses in the field to their countries and unis to blaze the global path?

I'm looking into the rubbish bin in my classroom and the inside says it's lined by Thai international education programs.

The cold fact is, as with international education, Thailand itself continues to do the elephant walk through history. But it's cheap and tertiary international education beggars know they can't be choosers.

[webfact]

one post deleted.

Thaivisa does not tolerate flaming.

If repeated I will impose warnings/suspension

[animatic]

Being surrounded by slums never hurt the Univ. of Chicago.

Ah yes generic affordable student housing.

Which includes the adrenalin raising run for you life, from time to time.

So sports package included.

[brahmburgers]

Among all social strata, there are those who look bargains. Granted, there are parents who look closely at comparative scholastic merits of a prospective U (in regards to their cherished children), but money remains a factor. Similarly, proximity of a U's locale to one's home is a factor. In lieu of just those two factors, price and proximity, Thailand could have appeal as a place for higher education - among neighboring Asians in particular.

Personally, I think higher education is generally over-rated. I've rubbed shoulders with all sorts of folks, .....from dirt farming Akha to cum laude graduates from prestigious universities. There are some differences, to be sure, but intelligence and/or the enhancement of skills is not necessarily augmented by top-ranked university education.

Some of the biggest swindlers/connivers of the Wall Street melt-down of '08 were hot shot U graduates.

U education can be useful, but folks in their late teens through mid-twenties - what are they most dwelling upon? You guessed it; getting laid, partying, and rock & roll.

One big challenge Thailand's educational system will have to overcome, in order to be taken seriously, is the wide-held opinion that graduation is virtually guaranteed. This holds particularly true for students who are high up the social ladder and/or have powerful/rich parents. What are the chances a professor would flunk a student who hails from a powerful and/or high class family? Regardless of how poorly that student has done, he/she cannot be flunked. It happened with Thaksin's son (Oak), and that was probably just one of thousands of similar scenarios.

[madjbs]

2nd rate didactic rote driven non questioning mills?

Absolute rubbish. The top unis are actually pretty good and could compete with mid level western unis quite easily. You obviously have never been to one.

What percent of all Thai unis comprise the "top unis" in international education and could compete with mid level Western unis? Ten percent? Five percent? Two percent?

Maybe 5 unis.....

Who are the faculty of these particular Thai hub unis that are on the international lecture circuit contributing to advances in the theory and/or practice of international education? Or contributing to the journals? Doing the original research?

How many lecturers in any uni from BA programs are on this "circuit" and teach their new found theories????..........Very few, I think you will find.

[madjbs]

in order to be taken seriously, is the wide-held opinion that graduation is virtually guaranteed.

That is really only a widely held opinion among scummy westerners living in Thailand to be honest. Real academics here and overseas, as well as virtually all Thais, don't hold such biased and bigoted viewpoints.

Edited October 15, 2009 by madjbs

[brahmburgers]

in order to be taken seriously, is the wide-held opinion that graduation is virtually guaranteed.

That is really only a widely held opinion among scummy westerners living in Thailand to be honest. Real academics here and overseas, as well as virtually all Thais, don't hold such biased and bigoted viewpoints.

didn't your mama tell you it's not nice to call names.

I mentioned 'opinion.' Perhaps a better word is 'perspective' ....in the sense of what it looks like to outside observers. It sounds like such opinions/perspectives bother you on a subjective level. Don't get your feelings get hurt. These discussions would be better if they were kept on an objective level.

Real academics here and overseas, as well as virtually all Thais, don't hold such biased and bigoted viewpoints

'Real academics' have vested interests in upholding the highest image of the venues they're employed at. It's like people in the Thai tourist industry. Such folks don't want to hear any mention of true things (jetski extortions, duty free shake-downs) that aren't flattering to their industry. Similarly, employed academics don't want to hear accusations that might besmirch or threaten their livelihood.

As for what 'virtually all Thais' believe.... They believe in ghosts, they believe that cheating is ok, and that rich people are superior/respectable regardless of whether they cheated to become wealthy. 'Virtually all Thais' (to use your words), also will tell you that Thai people are responsible and don't trash coral reefs, nor drop copious amounts of trash at outdoor events. Does believing/saying such 'n such make it true?

Objective pragmatists, on the other hand, call it as they see it. They may not always be correct, but perceptions count nearly as much as reality. So if the general perspective among farang is that Thai Universities allow cheating, and hate to flunk any hi-so students, then that's an issue. If you can debunk that impression without calling names, then give it a go.

Edited October 16, 2009 by brahmburgers

[jayboy]

Personally, I think higher education is generally over-rated. I've rubbed shoulders with all sorts of folks, .....from dirt farming Akha to cum laude graduates from prestigious universities. There are some differences, to be sure, but intelligence and/or the enhancement of skills is not necessarily augmented by top-ranked university education.

Some of the biggest swindlers/connivers of the Wall Street melt-down of '08 were hot shot U graduates.

U education can be useful, but folks in their late teens through mid-twenties - what are they most dwelling upon? You guessed it; getting laid, partying, and rock & roll.

What a muddled post.To take just a few points.Nothing in this thread is about intelligence.If you said higher education is not for everyone you would have a reasonable point, particularly in the developed world where some end up in higher education when they would be more suited to a trade apprentice scheme (German style).In Thailand it's not really relevant..But you didn't.You said higher education is generally over-rated which is a statement almost totally devoid of meaning.To cap it all, your inane comment on Wall Street hotshots is really beyond words.Why dont you talk about Nobel science laureates where with almost without exception each is a ht shot U graduate, to use your rather revealing phrase.

Let me take a wild guess.You didn't graduate from a top rank university.

[brahmburgers]

a bit of a rant, sorry....

As much as anything else, Universities are businesses. Same goes for hospitals, police and governments. Money is what powers their motors. Any notion that Universities exist solely for purposes of shepherding youngsters to greater knowledge and wisdom are quaint. Scratch the surface of any aspect of a university and you'll see money, or the need for more of the stuff.

Any youngsters who want to learn more, about any subject, can so so by a combination of life experiences, study on their own (libraries/internet), apprenticeships with journeymen, volunteer work with do-good organizations, and other such real life interactions. Universities are mostly a venue to channel young people through their corridors, in order to garner as much money as they can in the process.

Businesses go belly up if they fail (Ok, the big exception is Wall Street, where top-heavy corporatations {AIG, Goldman Sachs, et al.} aren't allowed to fail, but are instead bailed out by US taxpayers). Universities don't go under, even if they're not doing a good job. It's like Thai government workers. Even if they break the law, there are no serious repercussions. Worst case scenario is they get relegated to the vast Ministry of Inactive Posts with full pay and pension. There is no 'inactive post' for universities. They just keep going like the Eveready Rabbit, even if many of their students have few marketable skills when they come out their hallowed doors.

[madjbs]

in order to be taken seriously, is the wide-held opinion that graduation is virtually guaranteed.

That is really only a widely held opinion among scummy westerners living in Thailand to be honest. Real academics here and overseas, as well as virtually all Thais, don't hold such biased and bigoted viewpoints.

So if the general perspective among farang is that Thai Universities allow cheating, and hate to flunk any hi-so students, then that's an issue. If you can debunk that impression without calling names, then give it a go.

Like I said, It is only the "general perspective" among the scummy end of the farang community. They are are only ones who will refuse to believe the truth, even when presented with overwhelming information. Others will accept different perspectives and opinions when shown otherwise, but, not the ignorant and bitter farangs. I do not have the desire or patience to change those people, as they have little importance anyway. The whole situation is just a case of double jeopardy anyway, which basically states that they can not be expected to ever say anything good about things they don't know or understand.

[brahmburgers]

Let me take a wild guess.You didn't graduate from a top rank university.

No I didn't, but neither did Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs.

Bernie Madoff did. And your point is....?"

[brahmburgers]

in order to be taken seriously, is the wide-held opinion that graduation is virtually guaranteed.

That is really only a widely held opinion among scummy westerners living in Thailand to be honest. Real academics here and overseas, as well as virtually all Thais, don't hold such biased and bigoted viewpoints.

So if the general perspective among farang is that Thai Universities allow cheating, and hate to flunk any hi-so students, then that's an issue. If you can debunk that impression without calling names, then give it a go.

Like I said, It is only the "general perspective" among the scummy end of the farang community. They are are only ones who will refuse to believe the truth, even when presented with overwhelming information. Others will accept different perspectives and opinions when shown otherwise, but, not the ignorant and bitter farangs. I do not have the desire or patience to change those people, as they have little importance anyway. The whole situation is just a case of double jeopardy anyway, which basically states that they can not be expected to ever say anything good about things they don't know or understand.

A company that produces car tires, can be judged by the quality of their tires, can they not.

Though not as easy to gauge, a university can be judged by the quality of its 'product' ...in this case its graduates.

I meet university graduates on a daily basis in Thailand. They're generally very nice people, indeed some are lovely and charming. However, in terms of problem solving, and their handle on English language (which they've studied for how many years,..... 11?), they're well below the level one would expect from a university graduate.

Go in to a bank or a government office and, out of 50 people, you might be lucky to find one or two who can understand a simple English sentence. It's doubtful the ratio would be as dismal in Burma or Vietnam. As for math, when have you ever seen a Thai person, university educated or otherwise, do even the simplest math problem without a calculator?

As for problem solving skills: many's the time I've asked a question (at a Thai business or in a government office), and been told right away "mai dai" (can't happen, can't do it). However, it's often happened that, by my proposing possible fixes, the 'mai dai' attitude changes to "Dai!" a short while later. In other words, with a bit of 'thinking outside the box' many of the challenges that were initially given a 'no way' response - were found to be doable/fixable.

How much do Thai universities address 'problem solving' within their respective curriculum? For example, do Thai universities challenge students to find solutions to tough/intricate problems? If so, that's commendable. However, judging from how Thai university graduate government higher-ups deal with challenges, I'd venture that 'problem solving' is either not taught within any Thai U curriculum, or if it is, all the students are failing. More realistically, the professors are lacking in their endeavors to convey such skills, if they're endeavoring to do so at all.

call me a scummy farang if you want, but the above is what I've experienced first hand during my 22 years of visiting Thailand (half that time as full time resident).

[madjbs]

A company that produces car tires, can be judged by the quality of their tires, can they not.

Though not as easy to gauge, a university can be judged by the quality of its 'product' ...in this case its graduates.

I meet university graduates on a daily basis in Thailand. They're generally very nice people, indeed some are lovely and charming. However, in terms of problem solving, and their handle on English language (which they've studied for how many years,..... 11?), they're well below the level one would expect from a university graduate.

Go in to a bank or a government office and, out of 50 people, you might be lucky to find one or two who can understand a simple English sentence. It's doubtful the ratio would be as dismal in Burma or Vietnam. As for math, when have you ever seen a Thai person, university educated or otherwise, do even the simplest math problem without a calculator?

As for problem solving skills: many's the time I've asked a question (at a Thai business or in a government office), and been told right away "mai dai" (can't happen, can't do it). However, it's often happened that, by my proposing possible fixes, the 'mai dai' attitude changes to "Dai!" a short while later. In other words, with a bit of 'thinking outside the box' many of the challenges that were initially given a 'no way' response - were found to be doable/fixable.

How much do Thai universities address 'problem solving' within their respective curriculum? For example, do Thai universities challenge students to find solutions to tough/intricate problems? If so, that's commendable. However, judging from how Thai university graduate government higher-ups deal with challenges, I'd venture that 'problem solving' is either not taught within any Thai U curriculum, or if it is, all the students are failing. More realistically, the professors are lacking in their endeavors to convey such skills, if they're endeavoring to do so at all.

call me a scummy farang if you want, but the above is what I've experienced first hand during my 22 years of visiting Thailand (half that time as full time resident).

You are of topic again. We are talking about international programs at the top unis. We don't care in this topic how bad the Thai program graduates are from nakhon nowhere uni, which nobody has even heard of. I can guarantee that you don't meet graduates from the best international programs everyday in Chiang Rai, so your comments are not really relevant. Also, why is it that your posts are nearly always riddled with old stereotypes and generalisations?

As for math, when have you ever seen a Thai person, university educated or otherwise, do even the simplest math problem without a calculator?

Don't you realise how silly that makes you look??........

Edited October 16, 2009 by madjbs

[Dakhar]

I know if my parents came to me and said,

"Son, real college it too expensive for us, so we want to send you to Thailand, the new Flea Market hub of eductaion."

I would A) first say, where the F*** is Thialand, and What the H*** did I do to deserve this?

After figuring out how to spell Thailand, and after spending 20 seconds on google, I would find out that Thailand has one major thing going for it

Then after ingaging in loads of research I would find out that in Thailand, essentially no one speaks English, and there has not been a single significant invention produced in Thailand that has had any impact on the world.

As an 18yr old, I think the only thing that would draw me to this place for an "education" would be the desire to get further sex education. Other than that, I would have ZERO desire to come to Thailand.

Then as an 18yr old I would apply for a job at Walmart and live hapily ever after.

Now oddly enough this scenerio did occur for my brother, my parents came to him and said, do you want to do something exotic and fun when you graduate from HS? He accepted their proposal, and they sent him to China for a year for some schooling. I can tell u every day they feared he would would "run in to" some bad influences. Imagine what a parent would think about their kid in Thailand?

As for me, no offers from the parents, I put myself through school & I am sure glad I got degrees that have utility beyond the borders that I got them in.

[brahmburgers]

As for math, when have you ever seen a Thai person, university educated or otherwise, do even the simplest math problem without a calculator?

Don't you realise how silly that makes you look??........

No I don't realize (with a z) it. Please explain.

You're taking a generally frumpy venue (Thai Universities) and dressing it up in a poly suit and plastic bow tie, and trying to make it appear respectable on the world stage. Tough row to hoe. Are you sure you want to position yourself as eternal apologist for the archaic rote system otherwise known as Thai education?

Edited October 16, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Dakhar]

Excert out of a Thai Higher Uni level Sociology Textbook: