Highhopes To Be Asia's International Education Hub

[toptuan]

No you didn't. As I told you (and as a teacher you should already know this, but then maybe you are just a TEFLer?), students from top unis with a semi decent GPA have no problem getting into MA courses at well know unis all around the world, they certainly would not be required to do it again.

Not the students I know. Further, you can't be a university instructor with only a TEFL certificate. You are talking in a virtual vacuum of experience and information. No more responses from me are worth beating this dead horse further...

[Dakhar]

Not to beat the same dead horse, but what I think (and just my opinion) is that the student did graduate from a Thai Uni, got accepted to a MS program, but was required to take "PB courses."

They were called Post Bachelorte courses in my college, and bassically the courses were suposed to give the student a foundation in the subject before allowing the student to enrole fully in to the Graduate courses. The college would say that although they had a degree in "x" field, but the college did not offer an adequate foundation (in their opinion) to prepare them for their graduate program. The PB courses were usually about 1-2 years worth of courses. After taking the courses you would not be awarded anything (degrees etc) You would just be allowed to inter in to the graduate program full time.

It is very common to see this happen, and in my opinion, is is just a scam so colleges can force students to take more courses = more money.

[PeaceBlondie]

In the USA, when you 'graduate from high school and go to college,' mid-ranked schools offer remedial non-credit courses for low achievers. Or foreign students. The top unis expect freshmen to write flawless, original, coherent essays on Descartes, Freud, Marx, Shakespeare, et al.

I think madjibs clarified (insultingly). This topic is about International Programs as taught at the top 2% of Thai unis - maybe 5..

[Publicus]

Can anyone name names of Thai unis that have the leading international education programs in Thailand? I'd appreciate a starting point for some quick research.

Also, after ten consecutive years of teaching in LOS - uni, adults or mathayom - I've found the more obnoxious students will challenge the foreign teacher in the classroom but the "respectable" students who should do not, and that no Thai students ever challenge a Thai (or Asian) teacher in the classroom. (Adult learners are engaging but only because they're with a farang and are grown ups.)

Thai students in the schools and universities are either on their bottoms in their seats or on their knees on the floor while the Thai teacher checks their paper/notebook.

The hub of the archaic mentality perhaps?

There are 1,001 preconditions to Thailand as a hub of any education, much less international education.

[webfact]

one post deleted and a suspension was given

[jasreeve17]

Can anyone name names of Thai unis that have the leading international education programs in Thailand? I'd appreciate a starting point for some quick research.

Also, after ten consecutive years of teaching in LOS - uni, adults or mathayom - I've found the more obnoxious students will challenge the foreign teacher in the classroom but the "respectable" students who should do not, and that no Thai students ever challenge a Thai (or Asian) teacher in the classroom. (Adult learners are engaging but only because they're with a farang and are grown ups.)

Thai students in the schools and universities are either on their bottoms in their seats or on their knees on the floor while the Thai teacher checks their paper/notebook.

The hub of the archaic mentality perhaps?

There are 1,001 preconditions to Thailand as a hub of any education, much less international education.

No doubt others will disagree, but I consider these two to be the best (not all courses offered are international - some are and some aren't): Chula and Thammasart. Both offer BAs / MAs in education; TESOl, etc. Chula has several International courses in education - the students are good; international standard (I taught one who had a BA in business from a good US uni, he was smart, but no better than any Thai student on the course; they'd graduated from Chula BTW).

Mahidol is perhaps the most recognized university for international programs, though with strengths in different areas to the above. I've friends who teach on some English international programs, and my feeling is they're not quite as strong as the Chula or Thammasart 'local' courses (though there are many excellent Mahidol students who are fully capable of international academic success). As has been pointed out on another thread Mahidol is excellent in several areas: medicine, engineering and music, perhaps.

ABAC, NIDA and Bkk uni are private ones that I don't know much about. They are supposed to have some good international programs.

In your second paragraph the word obnoxious looks an uncomfortable choice. I was under the impression that our style of developing critical thinking encouraged debate and challenges, even if it's inconsistent with traditional Thai culture. Again, I'll add: the top universities (less than 10?) have excellent students who'd easily manage at UK or US universities...

I fully agree with your premise that Thailand is not and cannot be Asia's hub of education. The general level of education outside the top universities is just too low. For example, a teacher who joined Silpakorn this year was shocked at the high level of our English majors; he reckoned that in his several years teaching here at other 'upcountry' universities he had never come across a student as good as our worst English major. I'll add; Silpakorn is not considered in the top 5, or even 10, of English programs (probably should be...). Our students are solid - most are capable of studying on international programs; our best are exceptional by any world standard.

It'd be far better for the Thai Ministry of Education to spend their time helping the 90% of uni students in Thailand who receive a shockingly poor education - Plus will answer that this can be done in parallel. Perhaps, in an ideal world, but past experiences in Thailand suggest otherwise.

[Rumfoord]

Most people here didn't even read the article. Most are probably over 50, which means they studied when education in the West held a lower quality than in Thailand today. Many probably don't even hold a degree. This is not a forum for intellectual discussion of any kind.

i second that.

[Publicus]

I've taught mathayom students who have in fact gone on to unis in the US and who unsurprisingly have done very well. Their only comment is the predictable one that would apply in any native English country, ie, that the teachers there "speak so fast" (Thais here speak very fast!). There are about a dozen who have benefited greatly from the experience and who have left a strong legacy at their unis.

I've taught some very sharp kids and enjoyed some outstanding groups in the classroom. It's a crime that sooner or later the system beats them down and turns them into anything ranging from a Chavalit to an Abhisit.

English Language Education Majors at Chula left a great deal to be desired, but that was several years ago.

[animatic]

In USA or Europe what would be considered an 'averagely engaging' student,

would be joined only by the most aggressive. and for Thais perspective, 'obnoxious student'

in that outgoingness. It is so systematically trained out of them by the system, it is the rare exception.

Like a Thai Fonzi or James Dean equivalent.

Just breaking the mold enough to talk back regularly is pretty aggressive form for students here.

Chula, Thammasart and Mahidol are the ones I seem to meet the most interesting grads from.

Edited October 16, 2009 by animatic

[mysterybkk]

i think you should give them a little more credit. at least they are trying to start international programs. you cant expect everything to be perfect right from the start. sure i'm annoyed a lot about some of the things in my everyday uni life, but it's a fairly new thing here.

[Dakhar]

Most people here didn't even read the article. Most are probably over 50, which means they studied when education in the West held a lower quality than in Thailand today. Many probably don't even hold a degree. This is not a forum for intellectual discussion of any kind.

Most of 50 years olds who went to high school had Latin and ancient Greek in their curriculum.

And everybody who is familiar or work in the educational system will be agree that the level of education was much higher 30 and 40 years ago.

The blatant proof was given many times by television series who put students of today in the education en teaching system from the 50's. They all failed in the test from that time be it grammar, science or mathematics.

This from generation "Bush." If your generation is the epitome of intellect, heaven help us.

[Thai at Heart]

Most people here didn't even read the article. Most are probably over 50, which means they studied when education in the West held a lower quality than in Thailand today. Many probably don't even hold a degree. This is not a forum for intellectual discussion of any kind.

Most of 50 years olds who went to high school had Latin and ancient Greek in their curriculum.

And everybody who is familiar or work in the educational system will be agree that the level of education was much higher 30 and 40 years ago.

The blatant proof was given many times by television series who put students of today in the education en teaching system from the 50's. They all failed in the test from that time be it grammar, science or mathematics.

This from generation "Bush." If your generation is the epitome of intellect, heaven help us.

Latin and Classical Greek are still around well beyond Bush's generation.

Maybe it wasn't available on your syllabus, and obviously a debating society wasn't available either.

[Ijustwannateach]

Let's keep the discussion on the topic, and off the qualities of other posters, thanks!

[Dakhar]

Most people here didn't even read the article. Most are probably over 50, which means they studied when education in the West held a lower quality than in Thailand today. Many probably don't even hold a degree. This is not a forum for intellectual discussion of any kind.

Most of 50 years olds who went to high school had Latin and ancient Greek in their curriculum.

And everybody who is familiar or work in the educational system will be agree that the level of education was much higher 30 and 40 years ago.

The blatant proof was given many times by television series who put students of today in the education en teaching system from the 50's. They all failed in the test from that time be it grammar, science or mathematics.

This from generation "Bush." If your generation is the epitome of intellect, heaven help us.

Latin and Classical Greek are still around well beyond Bush's generation.

Maybe it wasn't available on your syllabus, and obviously a debating society wasn't available either.

It was, I just didn't see the economic utility in studying a dead language, instead I learned to speak Mandarin Chinese.

Regarding debate, that was a subject I took in HS, which on the scale of things, that is like talking about events in pre-school.

& and in the spirit of keeping this "on topic" To become the "top" international hub blah blah.

ANY time you make something of value/high quality, you must start with quality ingredients/parts/materials. How will Thailand hire/attract the high "quality" staff to build such programs?

About 5 years back I was once offered a job at one of the "prestigious" colleges that has been mentioned on this thread. The high offer of 30K baht a month made me giggle inside. At the time I was earning 120K+ USD. Good luck wit the "hub."

Edited October 17, 2009 by Dakhar

[brahmburgers]

i think you should give them a little more credit. at least they are trying to start international programs. you cant expect everything to be perfect right from the start. sure i'm annoyed a lot about some of the things in my everyday uni life, but it's a fairly new thing here.

Good point, no kidding. I'd suggest, if the top tamales in Thai gov't really want to develop a reputation for Thailand being a respectable 'education hub' - is to clean house from bottom to top. More specifically, raise standards for all levels of Thai education, from pre-school on up. Not just for showcase areas, like elite neighborhoods in Bkk, but in all regions. Ok, that's pollyannaish, but if Thai leaders had the right sentiments, education standards could be improved nationwide. It's like building the walls of a house. You can use funky mud bricks and cover it all up with shiny tiles, or you could use good quality blocks. Perhaps the final product (equiv to university graduates) might not be as spiffy as hoped, but the entire house (the general public) would be more generally sound.

Thailand is good at burnishing appearances. You can see it with any TAT publicity, with their photoshoped blemish-free photos, and their co-opted photos of Belizian coral reefs. Better is a trend toward deep substance, particularly with education system.

There are hundreds of thousands of Thai hill tribers and children of migrant workers who fall between the cracks, but that's another topic, even though it relates to the OP in a round-about way in regard to what I mentioned in above paragraphs.

As regards Thai students gaining admission to prestigious overseas Universities: No doubt the students are worthy, but there are also unmentioned 'quota systems' for many of those U's. In other words, it enhances the U's image if their student body includes students from Africa, Asia, and elsewhere - rather than just N.America and western Europe.

[jayboy]

It was, I just didn't see the economic utility in studying a dead language, instead I learned to speak Mandarin Chinese.

Actually -until the shrinking of universities' Latin/Greek departments in the last twenty years there used to be huge "economic utility" in studying Latin and Greek at a high level because along with the hard sciences a high classing graduate has demonstrated impressive powers of diligence and intellectual analysis.This would not necessarily apply to other liberal arts subjects but is more or less guaranteed in classical studies at of course the highest level.To my certain knowledge high paying investment banks in the 1980's were particularly keen to recruit classics graduates as trainees.

[Dakhar]

It was, I just didn't see the economic utility in studying a dead language, instead I learned to speak Mandarin Chinese.

Actually -until the shrinking of universities' Latin/Greek departments in the last twenty years there used to be huge "economic utility" in studying Latin and Greek at a high level because along with the hard sciences a high classing graduate has demonstrated impressive powers of diligence and intellectual analysis.This would not necessarily apply to other liberal arts subjects but is more or less guaranteed in classical studies at of course the highest level.To my certain knowledge high paying investment banks in the 1980's were particularly keen to recruit classics graduates as trainees.

In 1980 I would have been 12 years old, despite my awesome looks and good humor, I doubt any investment bank would want me.

[Dakhar]

i think you should give them a little more credit. at least they are trying to start international programs. you cant expect everything to be perfect right from the start. sure i'm annoyed a lot about some of the things in my everyday uni life, but it's a fairly new thing here.

Good point, no kidding. I'd suggest, if the top tamales in Thai gov't really want to develop a reputation for Thailand being a respectable 'education hub' - is to clean house from bottom to top. More specifically, raise standards for all levels of Thai education, from pre-school on up. Not just for showcase areas, like elite neighborhoods in Bkk, but in all regions. Ok, that's pollyannaish, but if Thai leaders had the right sentiments, education standards could be improved nationwide. It's like building the walls of a house. You can use funky mud bricks and cover it all up with shiny tiles, or you could use good quality blocks. Perhaps the final product (equiv to university graduates) might not be as spiffy as hoped, but the entire house (the general public) would be more generally sound.

Thailand is good at burnishing appearances. You can see it with any TAT publicity, with their photoshoped blemish-free photos, and their co-opted photos of Belizian coral reefs. Better is a trend toward deep substance, particularly with education system.

There are hundreds of thousands of Thai hill tribers and children of migrant workers who fall between the cracks, but that's another topic, even though it relates to the OP in a round-about way in regard to what I mentioned in above paragraphs.

As regards Thai students gaining admission to prestigious overseas Universities: No doubt the students are worthy, but there are also unmentioned 'quota systems' for many of those U's. In other words, it enhances the U's image if their student body includes students from Africa, Asia, and elsewhere - rather than just N.America and western Europe.

I agree with A LOT of what u stated, all up until the last. From what I understand, a lot of colleges have a problem with meeting "round eye" quotos because a lot of the math and science departments are dominated by Asain students. (and no, by Asian I do not mean by Thai students)

The truth is, I usually cheer for the underdog. I love the idea of Thailand emerging in to something greater than what it is today. But the reality is, TIT, and it would be better off doing the things u mentioned. Sure, long term results take a long time, but at least they are results. Witht he "hub" concept, the only results will be failure.

Honestly, I bet we have collectively dedicated more time regarding this topic, than any one has that actually has the abiility to initiate change.

[PeaceBlondie]

Honestly, I bet we have collectively dedicated more time regarding this topic, than any one has that actually has the abiility to initiate change.

That's what ThaiVisa does well.

[jayboy]

It was, I just didn't see the economic utility in studying a dead language, instead I learned to speak Mandarin Chinese.

Actually -until the shrinking of universities' Latin/Greek departments in the last twenty years there used to be huge "economic utility" in studying Latin and Greek at a high level because along with the hard sciences a high classing graduate has demonstrated impressive powers of diligence and intellectual analysis.This would not necessarily apply to other liberal arts subjects but is more or less guaranteed in classical studies at of course the highest level.To my certain knowledge high paying investment banks in the 1980's were particularly keen to recruit classics graduates as trainees.

In 1980 I would have been 12 years old, despite my awesome looks and good humor, I doubt any investment bank would want me.

In 1989 you would have been 21, just the right age to enter the gates of Mammon.Armed with a magna cum laude in Latin and Greek from Harvard or similar you could now be a Goldman Sachs master of the universe, richer than any dream of Croesus..... and hated by everybody.

[Dakhar]

It was, I just didn't see the economic utility in studying a dead language, instead I learned to speak Mandarin Chinese.

Actually -until the shrinking of universities' Latin/Greek departments in the last twenty years there used to be huge "economic utility" in studying Latin and Greek at a high level because along with the hard sciences a high classing graduate has demonstrated impressive powers of diligence and intellectual analysis.This would not necessarily apply to other liberal arts subjects but is more or less guaranteed in classical studies at of course the highest level.To my certain knowledge high paying investment banks in the 1980's were particularly keen to recruit classics graduates as trainees.

In 1980 I would have been 12 years old, despite my awesome looks and good humor, I doubt any investment bank would want me.

In 1989 you would have been 21, just the right age to enter the gates of Mammon.Armed with a magna cum laude in Latin and Greek from Harvard or similar you could now be a Goldman Sachs master of the universe, richer than any dream of Croesus..... and hated by everybody.

Doubtful,

Regardless, @ 21 I was just finishing a 2 year stint in Taiwan, not to be confused with the educational hub of Asia, Thailand.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Dakhar

[dumball]

Honestly, I bet we have collectively dedicated more time regarding this topic, than any one has that actually has the abiility to initiate change.

That's what ThaiVisa does well.

This quote should have the spot of "Most honourable quote of the month " despite all the 'Experts 'writings on this thread concerning education , so few could actualy read the header Asias International Education Hub and HAPPY I DO NOT HAPPEN TO BE A PERPORTED EDUCATION BUFF .

[animatic]

I studied Latin, still a bit of it hangs around to amuse me to this day.

[PeaceBlondie]

My Latin and trigonometry teachers used the same excuse: this will sharpen your thinking skills. Now I think too much.

[Publicus]

My Latin and trigonometry teachers used the same excuse: this will sharpen your thinking skills. Now I think too much.

I super strongly suspect you and I aren't the only farang Thais have said that of or to. Others don't think much or think at all. Which I think, er, might say is why the Golden Mean remains as elusive as the Holy Grail.

[eggomaniac]

i think you should give them a little more credit. at least they are trying to start international programs. you cant expect everything to be perfect right from the start. sure i'm annoyed a lot about some of the things in my everyday uni life, but it's a fairly new thing here.

IF that would have been the content of the OP, then fine, however the Article made ridiculous projections and false claims. It was one of the best TROLL op's ever, misleading to cause dissent.

Not ONE Poster has begrudged an improvement in the standards but this point was brought up as if somebody had, above again!? sheesh [just like my x, arguing with me about things I never even said]

READ the OP. --- "comparable to Western institutions" NOT true, unless it was specified comparable to a FEW in the top 500!? sheesh [Thailand has 2 in the top 500, while Japan has 6 in the top 100]

Set to "become the Asian Hub for international education" HOW??? [what a troll like headline]

I think the REAL hub, Japan, could mount a mount a valiant defense

"within 5 years, to grow from 30,000 to 100,000" NOT going to happen folks! especially if Immigration ever did a CRACK DOWN on those doing an end run to get a one year travel/adventure visa!!!

The BIGGEST disadvantage, hurdle, for Thailand to improve in International rankings is the overall lower rates of English literacy, as compared to countries they, foolishly, PREDICT they will over take.

I would LOVE to see Thailand address this glaring problem, as it holds them back not just on this Topic, educational ranking in the World, but in trade and business, as well.

[[One example, There are hundreds, maybe thousands, Filipino women, after 2 years as nannies in Canada who have now gained there Permanent Residence. It would NOT be hard find Thai women wanting the same opportunity, but it IS hard to find ones who can pass the English proficiency required! I know I recently tried to find one.

In Thailand, the low percentage with the fluency to deal with doctors, teachers, transportation already have prestigious jobs, above Nanny. In the Philippines country girls have the necessary English skills to Apply for this opportunity, not just the Elite.]

If the OP is serious about becoming the Asian leader/hub, they should look at doing a CRACK UP on English education for the masses. Thailand, to their peril, is lagging way behind their 'competitors' in this important area.

Edited October 17, 2009 by eggomaniac

[brahmburgers]

Yes, low level of English proficiency is a major reason, perhaps the #1 reason why Thai university standards are comparatively low.

When I was a lecturer at a Thai U, I was surprised to find that none of my dozens of students had ever had a conversation with an Eng. speaking farang. Admittedly, my U is in the north, where there are fewer such possibilities.

You can't expect hundreds of thousands of English studying students to get a handle on a language if they don't have any interaction with speakers of that language. It's also a disadvantage for the students to have Thai teachers who, themselves, don't speak English passably well. As for mispronouncing English words, that happens not only with Thais who teach English, but also with farang. Even some native English speakers (Welsh, Scots) can't pronounce English properly, but that's a bit off topic.

Message to English teachers reading this: encourage your students to get out of their shells, and initiate conversations with English speaking farang. To be on the safe side, it would be better for female students to approach couples or females, and do so with a friend along. Young Thais can be excruciatingly shy (so was I when younger) but it would really help for students to practice some English in real world scenarios, rather than just the insulated bubble of the classroom.

When I visited Tokyo, there were 'English Clubs' which were safe environments for Japanese to converse with English speakers. The locals paid a token amount, whereas the farang ('gaigin' over there) didn't. This could be an opportunity for making some money for people with a venue. Drinks could be sold, though they should be non-alc, otherwise it quickly devolves to bar girl talk, ....and the whole thing sinks to boy-meets-girl babble - though for most people, that's about all they're capable of.

Edited October 18, 2009 by brahmburgers

[Thai at Heart]

As for mispronouncing English words, that happens not only with Thais who teach English, but also with farang. Even some native English speakers (Welsh, Scots) can't pronounce English properly, but that's a bit off topic.

Not denying that there are some very strong Welsh or Scottish accents around, there are plenty of regional English accents that are virtually indecipherable also.

And yes I wholeheartedly agree, that a lack of development in the English language hampers the quality of university education. I have a nephew who has entered a law degree in Bangkok, and according to him a very high amount of kids who entered had been educated overseas and so had an in built advantage. His English was relatively poor so I sent him to the UK for an extended holiday to help getting up to speed and his English improved, but he has virtually nowhere to interact in English in the Uni.

Compare this with China where the "English corner" exists even in the small rural areas for students and English speakers can interact. They have nationwide speech making competitions for domestic students only that are televised with the winners getting scholarships.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Thai at Heart

[animatic]

Ah yes the English Corner.

A wonderful idea, and so counter to the farnags are baa

and Thailand uber allies attitude they were schooled with.

Learnb the language in school, but npt that the people

that speak it are worthy of contacts...

Maybe not quite as bad as that, but it does hinder contact and practice.

[Publicus]

As for mispronouncing English words, that happens not only with Thais who teach English, but also with farang. Even some native English speakers (Welsh, Scots) can't pronounce English properly, but that's a bit off topic.

Not denying that there are some very strong Welsh or Scottish accents around, there are plenty of regional English accents that are virtually indecipherable also.

Australian teachers of English are not actively sought in Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea or PRChina. There are a few Aussies in some of these places simply to avoid charges of exclusionism or bias, and because Australia is in the neighborhood and does business in the various places to certain extents, but generally the education ministries and proprietary schools of the countries/places decidedly prefer American English or British, England English.