Experience With Elephant Farm?

[THAIPHUKET]

Want to spend a couple of days with elephants. Accommodation should be comfortable.

Where did you have a good experience?

Dont know if location is relevant, e.g Lampang area more beautiful for elephant rides ?

[Spaniel]

Check out this website: www.thailandelephant.org.

They are about 15 km north of Lampang. They have accomadations in the camp but were fully booked when we visited in August so we stayed a couple nights in Lampang. If you want to spend time with elephants they offer a program where you assits the mahouts in taking care of the elephants. I think they offer 1,2 and 3 day sessions. The website will give you details.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Maestro
Corrected URL - Maestro

[gotlost]

Also http://www.changthai.com/# Elephant Conservation Center, Lampang

[IanForbes]

Elephant rides can be an adventure...

[greengirl]

If you are in chiangmai go to the taste of heaven vegetarian restaurant in thapae road and speak with the owner about elephant camps as they support and fund raise for the best places. they will have good advice for you.

[WaiWai]

Try this one: http://www.elephantnaturepark.org/ .

[butterisbetter]

I would also highly recommend the course offered at www.changthai.com. This is one of 2 programs offered at the elephant conservation center. This particular program is administered by Supat who does a great job making sure everything runs smoothly. I have been there 3 times, the first time alone, and the other 2 times with friends, and they all loved it. Supat could have moved on to higher paying work a long time ago, but he loves the elephants there and won't leave. Very good food is provided for guests, too.

The elephant conservation center is where the elephant hospital is. This hospital takes care of the elephants at many, if not most of the elephant camps in the north, as well as the working elephants. So helping the center will help elephants up north in need of medical assistance

[envirogirl]

I would like to add my recommendation for the Thai Elephant Conservation Center in Lampung. It is about 30 minutes drive from Lampung city and about 1 hour from Chiang Mai. Please also note that the name and website have changed so their current address is: http://www.changthai.com/. I believe they are slowly building the information displayed at the moment. It is best used for knowing which days are best to do their mahout program.

I have been there many times with my company in an attempt to partner with them on a unique volunteering experience where you do not clean up poop and teach nearby kids English. Rather, a 'volunteer' combines the typical mahout training experience with a series of lectures from elephant and fundraising experts such that they can continue to advocate for the elephants back home through multi media. Because our program is new, I wrote up some information on the camp to fill gaps on their website. I have pasted it below if you are interested. If you happen to be interested in my volunteer program, PM me.

About the Thai Elephant Conservation Center

The plight of the Asian elephant today is a very curious one. Two centuries ago there were about 100,000 domesticated elephants in Thailand. Elephants were incredibly useful in transport and agriculture and even war. Culturally, they are revered in both Buddhism and Hinduism, and they figured highly in the Thai arts and literature. With the coming of commercial logging for teak and other woods, elephants dragging logs were used to destroy their own forest home. In the aftermath of that destruction, over half of Thailand’s 2,700 elephants work in tourism, which since a logging ban in 1989, is the only form of legal work. This fate might seem sad but the truth remains that tourism is the elephants’ savior, because people simply cannot keep elephants if there is no way to make a profit from them. Thus, for those who truly love elephants, the biggest challenge is to learn and to devise new methods to help elephants within the tourism sector.

In the early 1990’s, several committed elephant enthusiasts came up with an idea to house and train rescued elephants on a government owned forest plantation in Lampang province. The result was the creation of the Thai Elephant Conservation Center (TECC), a government enterprise and the first of it’s kind in Thailand.

With access to almost 20 square kilometers of forest plantation, the TECC manages:

• A nationally recognized elephant hospital that is the first of its kind in the world. With five elephant veterinarians on 24 hour call, the objectives of the hospital are to treat all elephants free of charge, educate people interested in elephant health and to perform elephant husbandry through the breeding program.

• A mobile clinic designed to take care of sick elephants that are unable to be transported to the TECC hospital.

• The Elephant Nursing Center located in the Baan Pang Lah Elephant Scantuary near the TECC, where retired, crippled or dangerous elephants can find care and refuge.

• A nursery for new born elephants and their mothers or abandoned baby elephants in need of special care.

• A mahout training school, where mahouts maintain and train the elephants they are assigned to until one of them retires in life. Mahouts often pass down the profession over generations and/or are assigned an elephant after a series of rigorous tests. Mr. Prasop, one of the TECC’s founders, says ‘we consider the elephant like a daughter and the mahout as a son-in-law.”

• An elephant dung paper making factory that is power by biogas generated from elephant waste. The paper is used to make a variety of unique looking paper products such as address books, journals, writing pads, greeting cards and much more. These products are sold to raise additional funds for the TECC.

• A traditionally designed homestay made from local natural fibers. Living there is simple, but comfortable and centrally located on the campus.

• The Chang Thai resort and restaurant is comprised of individual bungalows scattered throughout a tiny hillside. The resort offers many comforts and excellent Northern Thai cusine.

• 80 elephants, 120 mahouts and 80 administrative staff.

Providing for domesticated elephants is no easy feat, which is why so many are abandoned or destroyed today. With additional resources TECC would have even greater ability to take in more elephants to give them the life they would not have otherwise. In addition, increased exposure to the exciting research projects already taking place at the camp is likely to promote the benefit of elephants beyond tourism. In its approach to responsible tourism through volunteering, Track of the Tiger has partnered with TECC to offer visitors a unique and mutually beneficial interaction with elephants.

[basinboy]

My wife and I spent a day at Elephant Nature Park about a year ago and my wife did an overnight there in January. More recently we went to the conservation Park at Lampang.

I think the Mahout experience would be good to do at Lampang, but we were disappointed that they still had the Elephants doing the tourist show, including painting, they had at least moved beyond that at the Nature Park.

[rawjade420]

Want to spend a couple of days with elephants. Accommodation should be comfortable.

Where did you have a good experience?

Dont know if location is relevant, e.g Lampang area more beautiful for elephant rides ?

Maetang Elephant Camp. Has the bset sucess rate of live births as well as being in the process of building

a nursery/maturnity hospital that will be free to any elephant camp. Those who have lost their elephants due to bad trucking experiences will now have a hospital close by and will not have to make that terribly long for the elephant, drive. Lots of babies at the Maetang Elephant Camp and you have freedom to interact. The owners are very sincere and also will make your visit pleasant with rides/rafting and a gourmet lunch.

[cmsally]

I must admit this whole elephant debate drives me crazy. There is obviously a whole heap of money to be made in the entire elephant thingy so at the end of the day you just choose anywhere that supports happy healthy elephants and thats about all you can do. But I really don't get all this stuff about elephant rides, games etc being cruel. All the elephants I've seen have been well fed and looked after. Its a bit like saying its cruel to ride horses, horses are very intelligent animals and often leaving them in a paddock leads to lack of mental stimulation and health problems.

One of the main problems is that Thailand doesn't have the vast wildernesses needed to sustain wild elephants, so people are working with the reality. Elephants need to be sustained in a domesticated situation, as long as they are healthy and happy and they don't become redundant, I don't see the problem. Personally I would support any camps that have active breeding programs, that is one of the most valuable things they can do.

[caf]

I must admit this whole elephant debate drives me crazy. There is obviously a whole heap of money to be made in the entire elephant thingy so at the end of the day you just choose anywhere that supports happy healthy elephants and thats about all you can do. But I really don't get all this stuff about elephant rides, games etc being cruel. All the elephants I've seen have been well fed and looked after. Its a bit like saying its cruel to ride horses, horses are very intelligent animals and often leaving them in a paddock leads to lack of mental stimulation and health problems.

One of the main problems is that Thailand doesn't have the vast wildernesses needed to sustain wild elephants, so people are working with the reality. Elephants need to be sustained in a domesticated situation, as long as they are healthy and happy and they don't become redundant, I don't see the problem. Personally I would support any camps that have active breeding programs, that is one of the most valuable things they can do.

Do you also support the overnight traffic of elephants from myanmar.

the analagy with horse riding is puerile.

[MILT]

I must admit this whole elephant debate drives me crazy. There is obviously a whole heap of money to be made in the entire elephant thingy so at the end of the day you just choose anywhere that supports happy healthy elephants and thats about all you can do. But I really don't get all this stuff about elephant rides, games etc being cruel. All the elephants I've seen have been well fed and looked after. Its a bit like saying its cruel to ride horses, horses are very intelligent animals and often leaving them in a paddock leads to lack of mental stimulation and health problems.

One of the main problems is that Thailand doesn't have the vast wildernesses needed to sustain wild elephants, so people are working with the reality. Elephants need to be sustained in a domesticated situation, as long as they are healthy and happy and they don't become redundant, I don't see the problem. Personally I would support any camps that have active breeding programs, that is one of the most valuable things they can do.

Do you also support the overnight traffic of elephants from myanmar.

the analagy with horse riding is puerile.

Could you be nice enough to clarify your statement. Horses and elephants mmmmmmmmmmm I could draw a close analogy> Elephant and Horses have almost identical anatonomy. But of course you knew that......

[cmsally]

Does anyone actually have any facts about whether it is cruel to ride elephants and have them to a few tricks or whatever. This is basically what I'm trying to drive at. There seems to be 2 sides to the argument - one that says they should be roaming free and anything else is cruelty. The other which sees them as domesticated creatures which can be trained rather well. I'm not saying I agree with either one, only that I don't see where the bases for these arguments come from.

Also this is only the second time I have heard about trade in elephants from Myanmar. The first time was when someone called me from the BBC asking about this. I was totally confused and my only reply was "why on earth are you calling me?". Turns out some nice friend of mine at the BBC had given them my number and told them I must know because I live in Chiang Mai! Huh

So maybe someone can throw light on the subject in case they call again!

[Johpa]

I think I'll leave the debate about Lek's reputation to others.

My wife and I spent a day at Elephant Nature Park about a year ago and my wife did an overnight there in January. More recently we went to the conservation Park at Lampang.

I think the Mahout experience would be good to do at Lampang, but we were disappointed that they still had the Elephants doing the tourist show, including painting, they had at least moved beyond that at the Nature Park.

Without the tourist shows, the elephant "art", and and the tourist rides the elephant camps that do a good job for providing for the elephants would not have the funds to provide that same level of care. Sure some camps can take in a small number of elephants and cater to the imaginations of those with post-modern sensibilities who then decry the camps who provide good quality care for far more animals. The elephants at the largest tourist camp up at Mae Sa get as good as care as anywhere. But there are far too many elephants out there than funds, so tourist activity funding is necessary, unless you want to start a major culling.

[caf]

Does anyone actually have any facts about whether it is cruel to ride elephants and have them to a few tricks or whatever. This is basically what I'm trying to drive at. There seems to be 2 sides to the argument - one that says they should be roaming free and anything else is cruelty. The other which sees them as domesticated creatures which can be trained rather well. I'm not saying I agree with either one, only that I don't see where the bases for these arguments come from.

Also this is only the second time I have heard about trade in elephants from Myanmar. The first time was when someone called me from the BBC asking about this. I was totally confused and my only reply was "why on earth are you calling me?". Turns out some nice friend of mine at the BBC had given them my number and told them I must know because I live in Chiang Mai! Huh

So maybe someone can throw light on the subject in case they call again!

Don't know why the beeb called you, but they probably read the same sources as I did. The beeb had obviously researched this. There was also a presentation in Chiamgmai not long ago by an elephant conservatioist and some slides showing the traffic, covertly at night..

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I never understood this Burma smuggling thing.. Specifically: Is it honestly more convenient to grab a wild elephant from the jungle in Birma, smuggle it all the way to Chiang Mai, Bangkok or Pattata, and then break it in and get it to perform in shows and/or be docile enough for elephant treks riding around tourists or even walking the streets? And that's less effort and/or more cost effective compared to just buying / breeding a domestic one?

I really don't get that part. But I'm very open to people with more knowledge than I do to provide better information on how that works.

(My suspicion is that smuggling does probably happen (not sure of scale), but then for already domesticated / 'working elephants' in Burma.. Many news reports (including BBC and everyone else) make it sound like their poached straight out of the jungle.

Secone point: A lot of the adversity to elephant shows are just fairly new sensibilities on using 'noble' animals.. It anthropomorphs elephants by making the assumption that an elephant would somehow find it more degrading to kick a football or hold a paintbrush than he would shoving logs. And / or: that elephants are to good for this, but that pulling a plough is less of an issue to a water buffalo or horse. That, is ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy watching an elephant playing a harmonika, but let's keep things real a little.

Edited October 13, 2009 by WinnieTheKhwai

[MILT]

I think I'll leave the debate about Lek's reputation to others.

My wife and I spent a day at Elephant Nature Park about a year ago and my wife did an overnight there in January. More recently we went to the conservation Park at Lampang.

I think the Mahout experience would be good to do at Lampang, but we were disappointed that they still had the Elephants doing the tourist show, including painting, they had at least moved beyond that at the Nature Park.

Without the tourist shows, the elephant "art", and and the tourist rides the elephant camps that do a good job for providing for the elephants would not have the funds to provide that same level of care. Sure some camps can take in a small number of elephants and cater to the imaginations of those with post-modern sensibilities who then decry the camps who provide good quality care for far more animals. The elephants at the largest tourist camp up at Mae Sa get as good as care as anywhere. But there are far too many elephants out there than funds, so tourist activity funding is necessary, unless you want to start a major culling.

Great point!

[caf]

I never understood this Burma smuggling thing.. Specifically: Is it honestly more convenient to grab a wild elephant from the jungle in Birma, smuggle it all the way to Chiang Mai, Bangkok or Pattata, and then break it in and get it to perform in shows and/or be docile enough for elephant treks riding around tourists or even walking the streets? And that's less effort and/or more cost effective compared to just buying / breeding a domestic one?

I really don't get that part. But I'm very open to people with more knowledge than I do to provide better information on how that works.

(My suspicion is that smuggling does probably happen (not sure of scale), but then for already domesticated / 'working elephants' in Burma.. Many news reports (including BBC and everyone else) make it sound like their poached straight out of the jungle.

Secone point: A lot of the adversity to elephant shows are just fairly new sensibilities on using 'noble' animals.. It anthropomorphs elephants by making the assumption that an elephant would somehow find it more degrading to kick a football or hold a paintbrush than he would shoving logs. And / or: that elephants are to good for this, but that pulling a plough is less of an issue to a water buffalo or horse. That, is ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy watching an elephant playing a harmonika, but let's keep things real a little.

I assume the reason for smuggling is money.

[basinboy]

I think I'll leave the debate about Lek's reputation to others.

My wife and I spent a day at Elephant Nature Park about a year ago and my wife did an overnight there in January. More recently we went to the conservation Park at Lampang.

I think the Mahout experience would be good to do at Lampang, but we were disappointed that they still had the Elephants doing the tourist show, including painting, they had at least moved beyond that at the Nature Park.

Without the tourist shows, the elephant "art", and and the tourist rides the elephant camps that do a good job for providing for the elephants would not have the funds to provide that same level of care. Sure some camps can take in a small number of elephants and cater to the imaginations of those with post-modern sensibilities who then decry the camps who provide good quality care for far more animals. The elephants at the largest tourist camp up at Mae Sa get as good as care as anywhere. But there are far too many elephants out there than funds, so tourist activity funding is necessary, unless you want to start a major culling.

Great point!

MILT beat me to that response.

I was rather thrilled to learn I had "post modern sensibilities" I'd always regarded myself as a bit of a dinosaur, actually I still think I am, I should stop listening to my post modern wife

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yes, please, I'm especially interested to learn if it is possible to grab a wild elephant from Burma and then get it docile enough to be of any use in the tourism trade.

[WaiWai]

Just while we are on the general topic, I will mention the following as some may not be aware:

It's a sound not easily forgotten. Just before dawn in the remote highlands of northern Thailand, west of the village Mae Jaem, a four-year-old elephant bellows as seven village men stab nails into her ears and feet. She is tied up and immobilized in a small, wooden cage. Her cries are the only sounds to interrupt the otherwise quiet countryside.

The cage is called a "training crush." It's the centerpiece of a centuries-old ritual in northern Thailand designed to domesticate young elephants. In addition to beatings, handlers use sleep-deprivation, hunger, and thirst to "break" the elephants' spirit and make them submissive to their owners.

Article c'td at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...16_phajaan.html

[Johpa]

Just while we are on the general topic, I will mention the following as some may not be aware:

It's a sound not easily forgotten. Just before dawn in the remote highlands of northern Thailand, west of the village Mae Jaem, a four-year-old elephant bellows as seven village men stab nails into her ears and feet. She is tied up and immobilized in a small, wooden cage. Her cries are the only sounds to interrupt the otherwise quiet countryside.

The cage is called a "training crush." It's the centerpiece of a centuries-old ritual in northern Thailand designed to domesticate young elephants. In addition to beatings, handlers use sleep-deprivation, hunger, and thirst to "break" the elephants' spirit and make them submissive to their owners.

Article c'td at http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...16_phajaan.html

And you would be hard pressed today, or even when that article was written, to find such extreme training measures used in any of the major elephant camps.

Look, the business of elephants has changed greatly over the past two decades. It is no longer the province of small individual owners who then rent out the animals to the camps. The camp owners are now the majority owners and they use far less extreme training methods and employ real vets to oversee the health of the animals instead of bringing in traditional elephant doctors, mo chang, like my father-in-law, who knew elephants pretty darn well, but had no real medical training whatsoever. And besides, I don't trust any travel writer who would call Mae Jaem a "village".

[envirogirl]

I would love nothing more than to see elephants and countless other animals returned to their original wild spaces so they can roam freely and avoid 9 - 5 work as footballers or painters, but lets face it, where is that space? Since WWII Thailand has lost vast amounts of forest to the agricultural production that is needed to feed this rapidly growing population. Not only that, but a population that is climbing the economic ladder. But the sad fact is elephants have to work for a living like the rest of us. They eat and drink a lot! Whats worse is that they are actually lucky people find them so darn special because if there wasn't a way to make money off them, then they would likely be extinct in Thailand or certainly close to it, without large regions of forest to feed them well enough to keep them from foraging in a farmers field, who will them likely shoot them to protect their meager livelihood.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yes, it's strange that some people seem incapable to have a discussion that centers around facts, and frames opinions around those facts. Very few answers to be found to be honest, just ranting and some pseudo threats.

[butterisbetter]

I never understood this Burma smuggling thing.. Specifically: Is it honestly more convenient to grab a wild elephant from the jungle in Birma, smuggle it all the way to Chiang Mai, Bangkok or Pattata, and then break it in and get it to perform in shows and/or be docile enough for elephant treks riding around tourists or even walking the streets? And that's less effort and/or more cost effective compared to just buying / breeding a domestic one?

I really don't get that part. But I'm very open to people with more knowledge than I do to provide better information on how that works.

(My suspicion is that smuggling does probably happen (not sure of scale), but then for already domesticated / 'working elephants' in Burma.. Many news reports (including BBC and everyone else) make it sound like their poached straight out of the jungle.

Secone point: A lot of the adversity to elephant shows are just fairly new sensibilities on using 'noble' animals.. It anthropomorphs elephants by making the assumption that an elephant would somehow find it more degrading to kick a football or hold a paintbrush than he would shoving logs. And / or: that elephants are to good for this, but that pulling a plough is less of an issue to a water buffalo or horse. That, is ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy watching an elephant playing a harmonika, but let's keep things real a little.

The short answer to your question is "yes". Breeding elephants is very difficult. When male elephants are in "musth" or heat, they are very dangerous. The majority of mahout deaths are due to attacks by male elephants in musth. Unfortunately in captive conditions, it's very dangerous for a female elephant to be exposed to a male elephant in "musth". They have nowhere to run should they need to get away. Gathering sperm for artificial insemination is not easy either. And because of the generaly low sperm count, repeat insemination is necessary. That said, artificial insemination is starting to be used with increasing success but it's still difficult. Of course, one day that will be the only way to breed Asian elephants because they are mostly gone from the wild already.

And because breeding elephants is so difficult, most trained elephants began their life in the wild.

[Lite Beer]

A number of posts have been deleted as they contravene forum rules.

The replies to them have also had to be deleted.

Defamation and Libel Laws in Thailand are a lot more strict then in the west.

The Rule in question.

6) Not to post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel.

Defamation is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

[sassienie]

Want to spend a couple of days with elephants. Accommodation should be comfortable.

Where did you have a good experience?

Dont know if location is relevant, e.g Lampang area more beautiful for elephant rides ?

Why spend 2 days with elephants when there are plenty of beautiful girls in Chiang Mai.

If you like them big, visit the Spotlite bar and ask for Lek.

[Johpa]

And because breeding elephants is so difficult, most trained elephants began their life in the wild.

Balderdash. There are few elephants left in the wild in Thailand and the vast majority, if not all, of the elephants at the elephant camps were born to trained elephants. Crikey, go to the Mae Sa camp and there are always new borns in the pens.

Yes there are significant difficulties in the breeding process and yes there are some dangers. I owned a female elephant for nearly 20 years. At a young age she was gored by a male and refused to mate for nearly 10 years. That elephant has now given birth twice. The elephants coming in from Burma are not wild elephants, simply unemployed elephants that do not have the registration papers, akin to car registration papers, that Thai born elephants have.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I have to say that sounds more likely.

Either way though I hate to see elephants in the streets, no matter where they came from.