Our Outside Dogs Bark At Night

[fremmel]

Wow, Nienke, you really don't like choke/check chain collars do you!. Sorry I went from a relatively good guy to a bad guy so quickly. Let me re-iterate a couple of things and add some detail before you sic the SPCA on me . We rarely take the dogs off the property where we need to maintain control through a leash. Essentially only for going to the vet's which is a 5 or 6 meter walk from the car to the door. And that's only maybe once or twice since they've grown bigger than I want to handle by carrying them. The leash is in case they get a wild hair - or hare - and decide to go running off. They haven't yet and if they did I wouldn't give them a "nasty experience" with a jerk on the chain. "Their own level of discomfort" that I mentioned would be them pulling away against me statically holding the leash and them not responding to being called. When that happens during our practice walks I just put my hand on their shoulder and nudge them back to the direction we're walking. By "paying attention to what I told them" I simply meant calling their name to have them return their attention to the direction we've been walking.

Again, my intent with these dogs is to have yard dogs, not show dogs. For everyday life, when we walk around having them range around me and responding if I call is fine. When we do practice with the leash they don't continually strain against it but just walk along. It's not always a slack leash but they don't typically try to drag me along either.These occasions aren't really training sessions per se, it's just so they don't completely forget the feel of a collar and leash. For the few minutes a year where they'd be out on the street I don't see a lot of point in extended training and practice to get them to heel. To be specific, I have never jerked on their leash and don't intend that as a training method. When Bina said "if someone always tugs on your hand, u wont pay attention. if someone pulls slightly on your hand, occasionally, chances are u will immediately respond." (emphasis mine) That's what I took him to mean by "snap/release" and thought it sounded reasonable and likely to be effective. The collar and leash don't seem to be objects of horror to them because they don't put up any fuss when we put them on.

By the way, they do get off the property periodically when my wife lets them get in the back of the pickup in the camper shell when she goes into the village to pick up some things. She keeps the back closed with the window open so they don't need to wear a leash. They like riding enough that every time we open the camper shell they jump into it whether we're going anywhere or not. No, I don't jerk them back out , I just continue whatever I was doing and let them get bored enough to come out on their own.

The way I let them know what I want them to do is to tell them NO and call them when they do something I don't like. When they respond and come back I pet them and tell them what good dogs they are. Since I'm not trying to teach them particular tricks I can't set up training periods but have to just react when they do something I don't like. Mostly that's barking and chasing stuff and they're getting better behaved with that. When I'm outside and can be a little premeptive, when I hear a tractor coming by that I see the male getting interested in I settle him down by talking and petting him and generally get a good response. As we do more boundary walks I'm hopeful that they'll quit thinking of the road as part of their protection area.

I'm pretty comfortable with how things are with the dogs. They're always happy to see me and follow me around when I'm outside. I talk to them and randomly pet them as I walk along doing stuff. They don't act fearful or anxious so as near as I can tell they're OK with their life at our house.

[Nienke]

And I'm sorry that you took my post as if I was judging you. That was definitely not my intention. I was judging a training method that I do not agree with. That's something completely different.

I wrote such a long reply just to make people look at a situation from another view point.

And no, I don't like choke chains as in most cases it is used inappropriately. When one has a better understanding of the processes, such as the learning processes of the dog, what is the stimulus, in what context and what are the motivational factors involved, that take place than one can see that chokes are not needed or shouldn't be used at all (like with dominant aggressive dogs or fearful dogs)

To me chokers are only useful together with a leather or nylon collar, there where you don't trust the quality of the latter. Most of the time when I take a guest dog of my property it is wearing both, but when the dog pulls it pulls the leather collar and doesn't choke itself.

[macb]

none of us are here to judge each other, just to offer advice to those who need it :

Nienke well article :

I would rather use the Term check chain not choke chain, after all we love our dogs and want the best from them so why its called a choke chain I really don't know because that's not the object of any exercise :

Again thanks to Bina and Nienke for there always knowledgeable inputs

[Nienke]

I use the term 'choke chain' as that's what it is doing. When you pull/tug/check the lead (or you let the dog do that) then the chain closes itself around the neck and closes the airflow.

When a dog corrects another dog they don't do that by biting over or in the trachea. When a dog goes for the kill it does.

So, then I'm left wondering what's really going on in the mind of a dog when it feels a choking-check chain suddenly closing its trachea. And 'dog not stupid', it understands quickly that its the handler who causes this closure.