Apologize

[Ijustwannateach]

I find that Thais give what I interpret as their versions of apologies all the time- as several previous posters have mentioned, it isn't always a speech- quite often is nothing more than a nod, an embarrassed smile (to be distinguished from other types of smiles), a quick wai, a concerned glance- these gestures are usually enough (and taken as such by their recipients).

When a Thai person is unsure if I will understand their form of apology, I have actually received very formal English language apologies.

Sometimes, I think if a Thai is unsure how to make the apology or if their apology will be accepted, they will simply choose to flee. Those with a history of being aggressive or easy to anger may find this happens a lot. If you expect frequently apologies, you should be in the habit of accepting them easily, casually, and graciously- remember 'mai pen rai.' If you're the type who likes to wring out guilt or microdissect events, you can expect avoidance more than anything else.

[smokie36]

I find that Thais give what I interpret as their versions of apologies all the time- as several previous posters have mentioned, it isn't always a speech- quite often is nothing more than a nod, an embarrassed smile (to be distinguished from other types of smiles), a quick wai, a concerned glance- these gestures are usually enough (and taken as such by their recipients).

When a Thai person is unsure if I will understand their form of apology, I have actually received very formal English language apologies.

Sometimes, I think if a Thai is unsure how to make the apology or if their apology will be accepted, they will simply choose to flee. Those with a history of being aggressive or easy to anger may find this happens a lot. If you expect frequently apologies, you should be in the habit of accepting them easily, casually, and graciously- remember 'mai pen rai.' If you're the type who likes to wring out guilt or microdissect events, you can expect avoidance more than anything else.

Also my experience. Most often an embarrassed nod.

I like the non confrontational approach and its helped me a lot in dealing with UK beurocracy as well.

[givenall]

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions.

My apologies are to admit my mistake and the same time realize them so I do not make them again. This is why you have better qualities in the west

This is what is missing in Thai culture since they make the same mistake over and over again without any remorse

[wintermute]

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions.

My apologies are to admit my mistake and the same time realize them so I do not make them again. This is why you have better qualities in the west

This is what is missing in Thai culture since they make the same mistake over and over again without any remorse

This is a ridiculous statement. People are people and they apologize when they do wrong unless you're hanging out with total scum which is probably what is happening here to dim your worldview so much.

Birds of a feather flock together as they say!

[IanForbes]

What about Thais? Would it be stereotypical to think they have different attitudes about the mistakes they, like the rest of us, make?

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I think it is only speculative in trying to determine what Thais think... for anything. Everyone is an individual and what purpose would it be if we know only a generalization? It is like the familiar old joke about trying to understand women... it can't be done. And, if we try it would only be stereotyping. All you can really go on is the individual. Even if 95% of all Thais followed one method of reacting, we would still be at fault if we tried to include everyone with our reasoning.

[473geo]

What about Thais? Would it be stereotypical to think they have different attitudes about the mistakes they, like the rest of us, make?

---------

I think it is only speculative in trying to determine what Thais think... for anything. Everyone is an individual and what purpose would it be if we know only a generalization? It is like the familiar old joke about trying to understand women... it can't be done. And, if we try it would only be stereotyping. All you can really go on is the individual. Even if 95% of all Thais followed one method of reacting, we would still be at fault if we tried to include everyone with our reasoning.

We throw in 'stereotyping' quite often as a fault, but that should not influence our thinking in taking a measured approach based on knowledge of the subject or subject matter.......it is after all this knowledge that allows us to be aware that there are variations......This thread has been very informative, and I for one, will now be much more aware of the variations in signs of remorse shown by the Thai......and will endeavour to limit the length of such where applicable.........

edit:spelling

Edited October 25, 2009 by 473geo

[bina]

You can see guilt on the face of a dog (if not a cat

first of all, animals dont feel guilt. they feel fear that that did something that isnt , apparently , acceptable to the 'higher ups'... if u yell at a dog that did something wrong, while he's doing it, he might not do it again, because you dont want him to do it. if u yell at a dog for something he did a while ago, as u are walking in the door, the dog will always slink away when u walk in the door, not cause of guilt, but because he has been conditioned to the fact that when u walk in the door u bark loudly.

guilt is something cultural. it seems to be very closely tied in with judeo/christian values. i will have to ask the guys at work about muslem but my impression is they dont have guilt quite like judeo/christian types. their 'sorry' involves lenghthy rites and rituals. an example that happend last week. a kindergarten teacher saw a small child on the road to the school. she put him in her car and went to the school, got out and , apparently the child fell asleep and she forgot him in the car. at the end of the day, she found him dead in the car. she freaked out, put the child under a tree and fled the scene. the end of the story is that the two families (her's and those of the dead child) are from two different clans. while the teacher is still going to court, that is getting off lightly because the chld's family wanted to kill her. (family honour). upon request of a village elder from her side, the families decided to do a 'solcha' meaning a 'forgiveness ceremony' involving sheep, money and a formal apology .

the reason i wrote about this is that i think that thais have a similar type of mindset. they dont apologize for everything. but they request forgiveness from an injured party thru other ways, some involving a third party, and some by way of 'retribution'. my husband wont ever say im sorry (well, he's learned to say it to my kids if he spills something or whatever, but he doesnt feel guilty about doing something) but he will suddenly cook something extra special, or be more intimate then usual, its his way of saying he's sorry. the 'kho thot' and 'wei' type of saying sorry he uses only when dealing with other thai that are 'higher ups'. he would not request kho thot from a 'nong' (younger/less rank) person then him.

and he doesnt agonize over things. i feel bad that i didnt have time this saturday to spend with my son back on army leave, when all the other mothers make it a point to be home with cake and munchies when their kids come back on army leave. hubby doesnt understand that 'agony' of the jewish mother. his take: M. is a big boy now. why do u have to be here when he gets back. but here, in our society, that is a horrible thing to do to a kid back from army. not to be home!!. so guilt is from peer pressure.

i dont think guilt is an instinctive feeling. i think it is taught and reinforced depending on your culture, who your peers are, what is expected of u. i mean, if u look at indian and thai bhuddist stories, they all have wierd endings, like people getting killed even if they did something good, and people buying eachother off (well, kingdoms) , revenge, etc.

i think that to thai, revenge is more important also, then a simple 'sorry'.

an interesting subject for anthropoligiests ethnographers and social scientists on the forum... guilt feelings and apologies, cross cultural perspectives.

bina

israel

[verywierd]

I am not Thai but I am of Asian descent.

With regard to the subject of "face", most westerners approach the subject from the wrong direction. To an Asian, a person "loses face" when he or she makes a mistake and it is spotted by someone else, especially a social superior. However, at this stage, the person spotting the mistake, ESPECIALLY a social superior, is expected to demonstrate his or her superiority of spirit by "giving face" to the person who made the mistake, and offering a graceful way for that person to retrieve the situation if at all possible. By not protesting or arguing, the person making the mistake has already acknowledged the error, and by accepting the "offer of face" by the superior, tacitly undertakes to correct the error and not to repeat it.

However, if the superior instead insists on an outright apology, he or she is seen as being aggressive, and demonstrating a lack of forgiveness and courtesy. Refusing to "give face" is the equivalent of a western person demanding a humble and public apology. Refusing to give face is interpreted by an Asian as an act of hostility and indicates the desire to deliberately humiliate the person making the mistake. Faced with such hostility, the person is left with no choice but to try to defend his or her actions and to "save face", which is then interpreted by the westerner as a deliberate lie or evasion and hence resulting in bad feelings all around.

Naturally, if the "error" was a deliberate act of malice or hostility, then expecting a genuine apology for it is pretty silly in any culture.

[473geo]

Interesting Bina that you see therequirement for revenge being more predominant in the cultures who appear not to easily/openly apologise.

Perhaps that very fact that the apologies in these countries are perhaps a little camouflaged, thus are not clearly visible to all, is the reason that if revenge is taken the injustice is seen to be compensated. So we could get back full circle to the face thing.....an apology delivered, is not about freedom from guilt,forgiveness, it is about a visible compensation to be seen to be redeeming the situation in a manner which restores the status of the injured/offended person.......

Seems conditioning and circumstance are very pertinant as you give a good example of with your son.

edit. please excuse any duplication as in the post above - I'm a slow typist!!!!!!!

Edited October 25, 2009 by 473geo

[fire and ice]

I think there is some confusion between posters here about:

1. An apology that primarily lets the affected person know you did not intentionally do something and it was an accident so they do not assume you deliberately did whatever it was (eg: I don't think many Thais that spilt a drink on someone accidentally would fail to apologise), and:

2. A deliberate action you later realised was not warranted or had unforseen consequences.

It would be helpful to understand which context(s) the above posters are referring to above and request that future posters are clear about this too.

To get a little off topic: "FACE" is all ego and is about the egoic split of power vs. weakness.

To put into a western context: in office politics, many (non-productive) people want a higher position because they feel "If I have the ability to f&%$ up your day I feel good about myself. If you are beneath me I can shit on you". Unfortunately many of these people get promoted over people more concerned with doing their job well.

Likewise in the civil service: Whenever someone (ie: member of the public) gets screwed about by some bureaucrat (Thai or western) it is usually because they get an egoic kick out of ruining your day because it makes their ego feel strong (momentarily). So it is important to be very courteous and polite to bureaucrats (100 times more so in Thailand than the west) or they will chose you as their ego's next victim.

In a poor country having face means having power = your ego’s ability to shit on someone – there is a practical side to this in Thailand because as a poor or middle class Thai you do not want people shitting on you and a lot of people can.

Although not understood in the (above) exposed fashion, having “face” (ironically) is seen as a good & healthy thing by most Asians. But it is really all ego, to be blunt it’s an egoic disease of the mind. There is of course a parallel in the west which is Pride. Pride is seem by most to be a good thing but it’s a similar egoic disease of the mind. Pride is all about success versus failure, or rather a fear of failure. But with Pride but no success is ever enough just like for the face-hungry no power is ever enough.

I should also point out that a hefty proportion of the Asian population is not really concerned about face except in a practical context and may well be obsessed with pride – although they probably do not know it or see it in that context. Likewise a hefty proportion of westerners worry about saving face but would never use that term or realise it’s the same as the Asian concept (How many westerners do you know that would be afraid to complain to the waiter if they got bad food? Most would complain but plenty would not!). It’s just that the west has a far bigger proportion of people concerned with Pride than face and vice-versa.

Of course there are other egoic conditions – many people have little of either face or pride issues but have completely different ones. Everyone has issues.

Note that I wrote the above on the fly so I may have missed a lot.

[IanForbes]

Interesting discussion that we can all learn from. Thanks for all the perspectives. And, thanks to Bina for a perspective from the Middle East. Understanding different cultures goes a long way in breaking down barriers we might not know exist.

[bifftastic]

I find that Thais give what I interpret as their versions of apologies all the time- as several previous posters have mentioned, it isn't always a speech- quite often is nothing more than a nod, an embarrassed smile (to be distinguished from other types of smiles), a quick wai, a concerned glance- these gestures are usually enough (and taken as such by their recipients).

When a Thai person is unsure if I will understand their form of apology, I have actually received very formal English language apologies.

Sometimes, I think if a Thai is unsure how to make the apology or if their apology will be accepted, they will simply choose to flee. Those with a history of being aggressive or easy to anger may find this happens a lot. If you expect frequently apologies, you should be in the habit of accepting them easily, casually, and graciously- remember 'mai pen rai.' If you're the type who likes to wring out guilt or microdissect events, you can expect avoidance more than anything else.

That's a very interesting perspective, thank you.

For me, part of the acceptance of an apology is the mutual understanding that the person apologising will try their best not to do whatever it is, again. And that part of the discussion or dissection of what happened is for both parties to find out exactly where the problem was so as to strengthen their relationship by not doing it again. Often the person being apologised to will make concessions so it's not all one sided. This is part of understanding someone and becoming closer to them.

Would you say that happens with Thai people? Is it normal to, maybe later, discuss why one person was upset and for the other to acknowledge that? I would think that would maybe apply to friendships or more intimate relationships? What do you think? Anyone?

[junkofdavid2]

To make an apology or excuse; to acknowledge some fault or offense, with expression of regret for it, by way of amends. To sincerely attempt to repair harm done and endeavor to achieve acceptance of the apology.

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An anthropologist claimed the highly civilized NA aboriginals, while conceding bad or wrong they did, felt it was counter productive to feel guilt. ---------------------------------------------

What about Thais? Would it be stereotypical to think they have different attitudes about the mistakes they, like the rest of us, make?

---------

Oh yes, the highly civilized aboriginals. In fact, often touted as one of the "world's oldest civilizations" (so that beats all of us indeed!).

I'm just curious, what exactly is today's proper definition of "civilization"?

[Harcourt]

The Thai person that I know best (my GF) may not be typical so I won't generalise, but her attitude is one of blamelessness. She can not be faulted or accept blame for anything, and thus never apologises.

God fordid I accuse her of somethiing! For example, if she dropped a crystal glass that she knows is one of a kind and irreplaceable and that I value highly, it was not her fault, the GLASS slipped from her hand, the GLASS fell, the GLASS hit the floor and shattered. Silly glass!

The inability to accept blame. Is it a Thai trait to do with loss of face? Or have I just got the narcisist of them?

[eggomaniac]

I've learned a lot in this thread about Thaism and a lot about myself. [less 'I told you so' in the future, I hope]

What is this aversion with generalization? We don't all ritualize circumcision, wear turbans, accept polygamy. You can't drop a hat on the floor in Thailand, but you can eat off the floor. In the North they eat with their hands but not in the South.

There are kathousands of differences between nations and cultures and it is 'possible' that this reaches into religious beliefs and moral behavior, you think?

As reported in the OP, a doctor of native studies reported aboriginals 'recognized' guilt for there wrong doings, but thought it counter productive to 'engage' in it. This would NOT make them wrong, only different, from other cultures, which require guilt for atonement.

It has been reported that Thais will apologize when they run a red light and crash into a farang, but quickly turn it into it not being their fault because the farang should not have been there.

Is there really a 'murdering monk' phenomenon in Thailand? I guess the ultimate act of remorse would be a convicted criminal recognizing the error of his ways and devoting the rest of his life to humble monastic searching, huh?

[Neeranam]

The reason Thais don't apologize like Westerners is to do with the Buddhist religion, not so much the 'face' thing.

When a bad action is done by the Westerner, he thinks that he can repair it. Thais realize that due to their 'laws of karma', negative karma cannot be reversed by positive karma.

[bkkjames]

The reason Thais don't apologize like Westerners is to do with the Buddhist religion, not so much the 'face' thing.

When a bad action is done by the Westerner, he thinks that he can repair it. Thais realize that due to their 'laws of karma', negative karma cannot be reversed by positive karma.

in this life or next?

Where does making merit fit into your last sentence? seems to me (events like songkran) is a 180 degree opposite to what you suggest.

[Furbie]

Thais do apologize, but they are extremely bound in by social norms and it is difficult for us to see through this. For example, it is very difficult for a superior to apologize to a subordinate – however, a superior may well say “I have been thinking about the way such and such was handled, I think in future we should do it this way,” thus letting the subordinate know that a mistake has happened which will not happen again, without ever admitting it. A subordinate Thai can also be extremely unhappy to be confronted with an apology from their superior – something as a western manager I struggle with all the time.

Part of the issue is, as a Westerner, it can be very difficult to pick up on the nuances, as it is so different than what we expect. My personal experience is that Thais also tend to make amends, as opposed to a spoken apology, such as getting a gift for something they did wrong or doing something special to make up for it. I have noticed this particularly with girlfriends and with subordinates to seniors. On the flip side, the more exposure a Thai has had to a Westerner, the more they understand that Westerners want immediate acknowledgment, not days of silence on the subject and then suddenly a special pastry or dinner to make up for it.

I used to downright badger my first Thai girlfriend into admitting fault and eliciting a response never to do it again. Today, I have adopted more Thai like behavior on this, wait a bit, let them know it is wrong and wait for them to make up for it. Much better than having a big fight to force an apology.

[eggomaniac]

it is very difficult for a superior to apologize to a subordinate

ah HA - now I finally understand HER

[Neeranam]

The reason Thais don't apologize like Westerners is to do with the Buddhist religion, not so much the 'face' thing.

When a bad action is done by the Westerner, he thinks that he can repair it. Thais realize that due to their 'laws of karma', negative karma cannot be reversed by positive karma.

in this life or next?

Where does making merit fit into your last sentence? seems to me (events like songkran) is a 180 degree opposite to what you suggest.

In neither. Making merit is a good action and by karmic law, good things will happen in your life. You can do 'tamboon' everyday but that bad thing you did will come back and bite your ass one day in this or future lives. There are some Thais, however who believe that doing 'tamboon' will erase negative karma but it won't. But what the hel_l do I know, I'm not a a Buddhist(but not not a Buddhist) and anyway the esteemed monk in Suan Mokh told me something totally different from the Dalai Lama.

Songkran ??

Most Thai believe that there is no point in making ammends(apologizing) as what has happened can't be changed. Also their belief of "arai ja gerd go hai mun gerd" (sorry was warned not to write Thai on this forum) which means whatever happened was meant to happen.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Neeranam

[bkkjames]

The reason Thais don't apologize like Westerners is to do with the Buddhist religion, not so much the 'face' thing.

When a bad action is done by the Westerner, he thinks that he can repair it. Thais realize that due to their 'laws of karma', negative karma cannot be reversed by positive karma.

in this life or next?

Where does making merit fit into your last sentence? seems to me (events like songkran) is a 180 degree opposite to what you suggest.

In neither. Making merit is a good action and by karmic law, good things will happen in your life. You can do 'tamboon' everyday but that bad thing you did will come back and bite your ass one day in this or future lives. There are some Thais, however who believe that doing 'tamboon' will erase negative karma but it won't. But what the hel_l do I know, I'm not a a Buddhist(but not not a Buddhist) and anyway the esteemed monk in Suan Mokh told me something totally different from the Dalai Lama.

Songkran ??

Most Thai believe that there is no point in making ammends(apologizing) as what has happened can't be changed. Also their belief of "arai ja gerd go hai mun gerd" (sorry was warned not to write Thai on this forum) which means whatever happened was meant to happen.

Isn't Songkran about washing away one's bad deeds and making good for the new year? Anyways, found this that hopefully sheds some light on it...

Songkran Volunteers learn more than they expected A new understanding of the true meaning of the Thai New Year

Thai and foreign voluteers learn about Songkran traditions.

CMM Reporters

Over 100 people, both foreign residents and Thais, all of whom had expressed an interest in volunteering their services during the Songkran festival, were invited to a workshop on April 5, held at the Lanna Wisdom School. Chiang Mai’s Mayor, Dr Duentemduang na Chiengmai had previously asked for volunteers to help with her ‘safe and polite’ Songkran, in the hope that at least part of the festival would be able to return to its more traditional ways.

The aims of the workshop, organised by the Chiang Mai Friends’ Group, were threefold, firstly to introduce the volunteers, many of whom were from local colleges, to each other, secondly, to explain their duties, and, thirdly, to teach them about the reasons behind the traditions and ceremonies linked with the Songkran New Year celebrations. The volunteers were also taught how to prepare flower trays for a decorating ceremony, and how to make Tung or Northern flags for placing in the sand pagoda. They learned what ingredients are considered “lucky food” at this time, and what offerings should be made to their elders in order to show respect and gratitude.

In addition, they were taught that each of the three days of Songkran has a special name and meaning. April 13, the beginning of the festival, is called Wan Sang Khan Long. Northern Thais believe that on this day they should clean their houses, wear only new clothes, and pray that bad luck and karma resulting from bad deeds during the previous year will not follow them in to the New Year. On the next day of the celebrations, April 14, people should only speak positively and pleasantly; if they become angry or unpleasant, bad luck will follow them throughout the New Year. April 15, the last day of the festival, is called Wan Paya Wan, “The Great Day”, during which all people should pray, make merit to their ancestors, and visit their elder relatives in order to ask for forgiveness and blessings for the New Year.

All the volunteers, both foreign residents and Thais, enjoyed the workshop a great deal, and came away with a new and far greater understanding of the true and traditional meaning of Songkran. For more information on the activities of the Chiang Mai Friends’ Group, please email on info@ retireinchiangmai.com.

Chiangmai Mail

__________________

"The only constant in the Universe is change"

[hamishgillan]

Oh come on, I've been apologized to by Thais before, and heard apologies from Thai to Thai.