Abhisit Says Democrats Will Get More Party-list Votes

[webfact]

Democrats will get more party-list votes, Abhisit says

By The Nation

Published on October 26, 2009

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said yesterday that his ruling Democrat Party would get more party-list votes than the opposition Pheu Thai Party if an election was held soon, but in the meantime he was still having fun running the country.

"I believe it would be a tight race," he said.

However, the Democrats should get more votes for proportional MPs, he said.

"But constituency MPs are still a problem," he said.

Abhisit was responding on his weekly television programme to a question about the party's readiness if an election was held on next day during an interview by Nation editor-in-chief Suthichai Yoon on a Hua Hin beach.

The premier said he was evaluating his party's election chances based on some surveys he had studied. While his party got a hundred thousand fewer votes than Pheu Thai in the last election, his party had since done more for the people and they were satisfied with its performance.

Abhisit said he still enjoyed his work, solving problems and trying to make the country better, including improving social welfare via new benefits such as free basic education and a pension fund for retirees.

When Suthichai referred to a book of "100 Dreams" promoting the government's policies, Abhisit said he did not forget any of the policies.

"I intend to check my homework on my first anniversary [as premier]. I remember having done a lot," he said.

Criticism could not be avoided, as it was impossible to have all the people agree on the same thing in politics, he said.

Criticism was part of the job, which he would listen to. Although he would fret over groundless, unreasonable criticism or criticism with an ulterior motive, he would be grateful for criticism that leads to examination or lets the government see problems.

Abhisit declined to assess his work over the first 10 months, but said he was decisive and never stalled for time.

"(The unfinished business of appointing a new) National Police chief was not buying time. Now I have stated my standpoint clearly. It was different from the Police Commission's. And we try not to let severe conflicts happen," he said.

Although the country was exposed to uncontrollable factors like the global economic crisis, economic forecasts were painting a brighter picture for Thailand than when he started his work. Policy initiatives have shown progress, he said.

"On reconciliation, as I have said, nobody can make all people agree. But we have some answers. When we reached the answer on holding a referendum [for a charter revision], I thought it would be accepted. But the opposition changed its mind," he said.

The Democrats did not want the charter amended, but yielded to having the people decide through a national referendum on whether the charter rewrite should go ahead, he added.

-- The Nation 2009/10/26

[LawnGnome]

There can be no reconcilliation because Thaksin and Puea Thai don't care about that. They only care about power. If they are not in power, they will never be happy. They are incapable of serving as a genuine opposition, the way the Democrats did for so many years, providing genuine policy alternatives and prospectives. Puea Thai is all that is bad about Thai politics, and the longer they can be out of the game, the better for Thailand in the long run.

Bravo Abhisit! Many said you wouldn't last 3 months. But it goes to show that smart, intelligent men can do some good work, if evil is stuffed in the closet for a while.

[jamesjdaly]

^^

Hear hear. Well said that man!!!

[animatic]

There can be no reconcilliation because Thaksin and Puea Thai don't care about that. They only care about power. If they are not in power, they will never be happy. They are incapable of serving as a genuine opposition, the way the Democrats did for so many years, providing genuine policy alternatives and prospectives. Puea Thai is all that is bad about Thai politics, and the longer they can be out of the game, the better for Thailand in the long run.

Bravo Abhisit! Many said you wouldn't last 3 months. But it goes to show that smart, intelligent men can do some good work, if evil is stuffed in the closet for a while.

Any proper opposition party wouid have created a 'Shadow Government',

to formulate and propagate PRACTICAL alternatives or variations to government policy.

PTP only repetitively screams that ; 'ALL that the Dems do is bad, and Thaksin would do it all better.'

And does all efforts to ruin the country in hopes the government will fall, and cause elections.

Lets not forget the repeatedly harassing lawsuits based on mis-reading of law.

That sums up their governance policies... not much to behold.

This is utterly without ANY semblance of a policy suggestion or workable plans.

They seem to think opposition is strictly to OPPOSE, and not to propose.

Edited October 26, 2009 by animatic

[Rumfoord]

basically is the article about that Abhisit said about himself that he is awesome, right?

AWESOME. Abhisit is awesome.

[Ricardo]

It's all very well, to discuss which single party might be the largest in parliament, but the truth is that the recent governments were all dependent upon allies, to form a majority. So the quality of your connections with other parties is really the key factor here.

[hammered]

Specualting on how votes will go is a dangerous thing. Certainly in the constituencies having the sitting MP in your party is the main factor. The party list is somewhat different but a party winning the list will not likely beat a party winnign the constituencies. I would persoanlly not see the Dems beating PTP as things stand at the moment. They need to see persoannel drift form PTP to say BJT to have a chance of coming out on top imho. However, whether PTP could right now get an overall majority remains moot and in a parliamentary system if you dont get an overall majority anything can happen as we have seen in several countries.

A sfor reconcilliation there sint going to be any. The country is split regionally rather than in any other way and that means the inter-region disagrement will remain unless representatives of all regions agree on something, which right now doesnt look liklely.

If you want to step back from the intra-elite power struggle for a minute it is possible to say Samak, Somchai, Abhisit each from their own perspective (which we may not agree with) all did what they thought could end division and encourage reconcilliation. However, in the end.....

[mythBuster]

More interesting than what Abhisit thinks and says is what his boss Suthep says. Suthep is neither working towards reconciliation nor is he interested in surrendering power before he and his cronies has reaped the rewards that unfortunately come with borrowing almost insane amounts of money. Suthep has shown to be ruthless in his own home province, dividing an entire sea between his family CP group and a few other companies driving thousands of poor fisherman to wrecks.

The democratic party always have a billboard for the outside world that is clean and smooth. The people that are really in power are however extremely dirty. Chuan was clean, the real Prime minister was Sanan, who was the very first politician banned for 5 years.

It is quite good comedy when you see the son of former prime minister Choonhavan who is known as the biggest crook under all crooked Thai Prime Ministers that served and who was disposed by the Suchinda government criticizing Thaksin about the source of his wealth. Senator Choonhavan should be a man and should return 90% of his wealth to Thailand, only than he can afford to take the political high ground. Abhisit is probably nice and maybe even honest but his boss is not nice and honest, after all he was convicted in the past for taking money from that other mobile phone and satellite company TAC, flying halfway around the world in one of their corporate planes.

As long as Suthep does not have the political will to kiss up with that other party he only can dream of being re-elected and bringing Thailand into a stabile position.

[Rumfoord]

It's all very well, to discuss which single party might be the largest in parliament, but the truth is that the recent governments were all dependent upon allies, to form a majority. So the quality of your connections with other parties is really the key factor here.

teh friends of Abhisit? they are awesome!!!

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW Bhum Jai Thai

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Bhum-Jai-Tha...ob-t307540.html

[jasreeve17]

Some good points in posts #7 and #8, IMO.

Talk is cheap. The Dems have never won an election, I can't see any reason for that to change now... If Abhisit believes otherwise then put it to the test: UN monitored free elections - easy.

The Dems facade is a total joke. Most Thais, in my experience, feel and say this; have heard this from them for years. The Dems are pro big business and big handouts (to themselves), they are unbelievably corrupt... The difference is they do very little, if anything, for the masses... The idea that the Dems are somehow less corrupt than any other group is hilarious, frankly.

I do not believe that Thais are split by a regional divide. It is a class divide, pure and simple; not with regard to the politicians from various parties; they're all in it for the money, but with regard to the voters. There are more poor folk in Thailand than rich, thus the Dems who are an elitist support group will never (have never) win an election, IMO. But, I eagerly await the next election, that Abhisit has promised so many times, so we can stop the speculation and find out the truth...

By the way: this thread is about Abhisit - check the title...

p.s. No great surprise that the Nation was involved in this propaganda piece...

[Rumfoord]

The Dems facade is a total joke. Most Thais, in my experience, feel and say this; have heard this from them for years. The Dems are pro big business and big handouts (to themselves), they are unbelievably corrupt... The difference is they do very little, if anything, for the masses... The idea that the Dems are somehow less corrupt than any other group is hilarious, frankly.

Awesome. the Dems are awesome.

[hammered]

The rural and working poor of ceratin areas vote Dem and others vote PTP. That is about region not class whatever myth others want to put up. The poor down south and in certain other places vote Dem. There are a lot of middle and upper class who vote PTP too. Both main parties are controlled by an elite that hails form within the general elite. PTP have done or been seen to do more for the poorer people of the upper north and isaan. The poor down south dont see this but see the Dems do more for them. That is all mixed in with traditonal PR and control networks.

Until recently the Dems who are close to a conservative party in western terms were only a regional party. They had the south locked up and still do and the poor down south will vote Dem. With them being very regional until recently it meant that the powerful southern polticos controlled the whole mechanism of the party with a few sinecures for others who delivered a few northern (Sanan was a good example), Isaan or Bangkok seats. With the rise of TRT and the Banyat debacle the Dems had to reorganize and try to grow. Now this also meant the relative loss of power within the party for the southern clique. Part of internal Dem problems now stem from this. To grow the Dems have had to expand in the central region, east and bits of the north. To go the next step they need more in the North and even a few in teh Isaan. To achieve this, or at least to attempt to, means widening the power spread and further upsetting southern figures who have to give up sinecures they have grown accustomed to. The irony is that if the Dems become succesful in expanding elsewhere some of their more traditonal style southern power brokers may think about breaking away.

One irony of the coup and demise of TRT was that it also hit the Dem's right when they were trying to remodel the party for an election victory a couple down the line. The coup hit the demcoratic process in many many ways to the poitn where now you have a rump of TRT staffed pretty much by the robber barons and devoid of any of the thinkers and leftists and a Democrat party that is some unwieldy and unresolved mix of the old traditonal southern barons and those who wanted to change it but are now tainted and damaged.

[jasreeve17]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

Edited October 26, 2009 by jasreeve17

[LawnGnome]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

What actions are those Jas? Just curious.

[hammered]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

I really have no feel for the short term future. I find it hard to predict. However, the longer term future is Thailand will be democractic, increasingly wealthier, a slightly better distribution of welath and coup free. How it gets there and who the villains, champions and controversial will be remains to be seen. I dount I could predict it if I treid but there opportunites for anyone or any party to come out positively. It is just down to their actions.

[LawnGnome]

I really have no feel for the short term future. I find it hard to predict. However, the longer term future is Thailand will be democractic, increasingly wealthier, a slightly better distribution of welath and coup free. How it gets there and who the villains, champions and controversial will be remains to be seen. I dount I could predict it if I treid but there opportunites for anyone or any party to come out positively. It is just down to their actions.

Villians - Easy Thaksin, Sondhi, Chalvalit, Chalerm, Sanoh, and everyone else who loves power above all else

Champions - The Thai People's Champion is easy to know (he who must not be named), Abhisit, Anand, Chuan, and all the other decent people trying to make things better.

Controversial - Newin, Suthep, and all the other old school power brokers, who's time is fading, little by little, as people because more tuned in.

[Rumfoord]

PM 'a good person' but support for him trails Thaksin, Abac poll shows

Published on October 26, 2009

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is dropping further behind former premier Thaksin Shinawatra in the popularity race, although both approval ratings have plummeted since the last survey.

Thaksin in July enjoyed only a percentage-point advantage over Abhisit - 34 per cent to 33 per cent.

But now he beats Abhisit by three percentage points, 25 per cent versus 22 per cent, Noppadon Kannika, director of Abac Poll, said yesterday.

Back in March, Abhisit's rating was more than double Thaksin's at 51 per cent to 24 per cent.

Noppadon said interviews and qualitative research show that respondents believe Abhisit is a good person but slow in responding to people's plights while Thaksin, his political rival, had made a point of visiting grassroots communities.

They said Abhisit seems to spend most of his time with the elite in the city. He is always seen speaking at seminars or presiding at ceremonies.

"The locals said that as premier, Abhisit has power, so he should be able to solve problems quickly. They also dislike his making excuses, and his beautiful words that offer no tangible results,'' Noppadon said.

Of the 4,286 people over 18 in 27 provinces polled across the country from October 22-24, 53 per cent said they preferred to be politically neutral and not choose sides.

People with a bachelors degree still favour Abhisit more than Thaksin, who enjoys rural support.

While people in the North and Northeast prefer Thaksin over Abhisit, so did those in Bangkok.

The Central region was about evenly divided between the two, but in the South Abhisit overwhelmed Thaksin by 54 per cent to 3 per cent.

The respondents were most concerned about Abhisit losing the chance to continue working for the people, which would mean they would lose a prime minister who is a decent person, Noppadon added.

-- The Nation October 26, 2009

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/10/26...cs_30115179.php

[Rumfoord]

The premier said he was evaluating his party's election chances based on some surveys he had studied. While his party got a hundred thousand fewer votes than Pheu Thai in the last election, his party had since done more for the people and they were satisfied with its performance.

vs.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is dropping further behind former premier Thaksin Shinawatra in the popularity race, although both approval ratings have plummeted since the last survey.

Thaksin in July enjoyed only a percentage-point advantage over Abhisit - 34 per cent to 33 per cent.

But now he beats Abhisit by three percentage points, 25 per cent versus 22 per cent, Noppadon Kannika, director of Abac Poll, said yesterday.

Back in March, Abhisit's rating was more than double Thaksin's at 51 per cent to 24 per cent.

Abhisit is awesome.

[LawnGnome]

The premier said he was evaluating his party's election chances based on some surveys he had studied. While his party got a hundred thousand fewer votes than Pheu Thai in the last election, his party had since done more for the people and they were satisfied with its performance.

vs.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva is dropping further behind former premier Thaksin Shinawatra in the popularity race, although both approval ratings have plummeted since the last survey.

Thaksin in July enjoyed only a percentage-point advantage over Abhisit - 34 per cent to 33 per cent.

But now he beats Abhisit by three percentage points, 25 per cent versus 22 per cent, Noppadon Kannika, director of Abac Poll, said yesterday.

Back in March, Abhisit's rating was more than double Thaksin's at 51 per cent to 24 per cent.

Abhisit is awesome.

As are you Rum.

[jasreeve17]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

What actions are those Jas? Just curious.

To answer your question:

Pumping money into the army.

Giving ISOC more powers, time after time after time, instead of improving civil laws and undermining the army's involvement in politics.

Attempting to protect Prem under Lese Majesty laws.

Pressurising the courts to allow business to do as they wish instead of acting inline with Thai environmental laws.

Getting huge loans from foreign nations in exchange for easy corruption opportunities for his Dem mates.

Making deals with people like Nevin, in order to get power at all costs.

Giving money to ISOC to 're-educate people's idea of democracy' aimed, in his own words, directly at people that voted for MrT.

Being head of the party who have forced the county up the world corruption lists and down the world democracy lists (many well respected organizations, not my figures...)

I could go on, but I think you get the message.

Look, I'm not a hater, well maybe I hate moronic ThaiVisa folk... I didn't like MrT because of his corruption. I don't like the PAD because they are a stupid group with no positive input who are used to push forward a nationalistic agenda. Obviously I love and respect democratic principles; hence Prem and the army and the worst of the worst in my book. I should be, and I was, an Abhisit supporter. But, I judge him by his and his party's actions, not his words / lies...

[jasreeve17]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

I really have no feel for the short term future. I find it hard to predict. However, the longer term future is Thailand will be democractic, increasingly wealthier, a slightly better distribution of welath and coup free. How it gets there and who the villains, champions and controversial will be remains to be seen. I dount I could predict it if I treid but there opportunites for anyone or any party to come out positively. It is just down to their actions.

Our hopes are the same.

My feeling is, and always has been, that the very FIRST STEP is to get the army and their benefactors (Prem) out of politics (preferably behind bars). As far as cleaning up the politicians... Wow, what a job. They are all, so extremely bad... We need to move away from clan control, engage the electorate, throw nationalism in the bin, create visibility in all areas, make people responsible for their actions - basically, this is huge social foundation change, and it needs to start at the roots, which it will...

[Rumfoord]

To answer your question:

Pumping money into the army.

Giving ISOC more powers, time after time after time, instead of improving civil laws and undermining the army's involvement in politics.

Attempting to protect Prem under Lese Majesty laws.

Pressurising the courts to allow business to do as they wish instead of acting inline with Thai environmental laws.

Getting huge loans from foreign nations in exchange for easy corruption opportunities for his Dem mates.

Making deals with people like Nevin, in order to get power at all costs.

Giving money to ISOC to 're-educate people's idea of democracy' aimed, in his own words, directly at people that voted for MrT.

Being head of the party who have forced the county up the world corruption lists and down the world democracy lists (many well respected organizations, not my figures...)

I could go on, but I think you get the message.

Look, I'm not a hater, well maybe I hate moronic ThaiVisa folk... I didn't like MrT because of his corruption. I don't like the PAD because they are a stupid group with no positive input who are used to push forward a nationalistic agenda. Obviously I love and respect democratic principles; hence Prem and the army and the worst of the worst in my book. I should be, and I was, an Abhisit supporter. But, I judge him by his and his party's actions, not his words / lies...

They are all awesome.

The Nation, the Dems, the army, the ISOC, the PAD, the usual suspects, the ThaiVisa folk. Awesome.

Their entertaining value totally underrated.

it are mainly the intellectual untalented who are shouting and cheering to newest news of MrT.

[Publicus]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

I really have no feel for the short term future. I find it hard to predict. However, the longer term future is Thailand will be democractic, increasingly wealthier, a slightly better distribution of welath and coup free. How it gets there and who the villains, champions and controversial will be remains to be seen. I dount I could predict it if I treid but there opportunites for anyone or any party to come out positively. It is just down to their actions.

Our hopes are the same.

My feeling is, and always has been, that the very FIRST STEP is to get the army and their benefactors (Prem) out of politics (preferably behind bars). As far as cleaning up the politicians... Wow, what a job. They are all, so extremely bad... We need to move away from clan control, engage the electorate, throw nationalism in the bin, create visibility in all areas, make people responsible for their actions - basically, this is huge social foundation change, and it needs to start at the roots, which it will...

Thai culture and civilization are utterly incapable of producing a Vaclav Havel or an Obama so maybe a Lech Walensa can emerge from among these goups. I'd be satisfied if that could happen, but I'm still waiting................

[Publicus]

Thai culture and civilization are utterly incapable of producing a Vaclav Havel or an Obama so maybe a Lech Walensa can emerge from among these goups. I'd be satisfied if that could happen, but I'm still waiting................

please don't judge about the capabilities of Thai culture and civilization tthe way you did. that is stupid.

and don't put Obama in a line with Vaclav Havel or Lech Wałęsa. that is stupid.

your us-american centric bias and hubris makes me wanna puke. your are a disgrace for what us-america could be and should stand for.

Thank you for your concern and for sharing your opinions with me. If I need anything from you, I'll get back to you. (Don't call me, I'll call you.)

[hammered]

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

I really have no feel for the short term future. I find it hard to predict. However, the longer term future is Thailand will be democractic, increasingly wealthier, a slightly better distribution of welath and coup free. How it gets there and who the villains, champions and controversial will be remains to be seen. I dount I could predict it if I treid but there opportunites for anyone or any party to come out positively. It is just down to their actions.

Our hopes are the same.

My feeling is, and always has been, that the very FIRST STEP is to get the army and their benefactors (Prem) out of politics (preferably behind bars). As far as cleaning up the politicians... Wow, what a job. They are all, so extremely bad... We need to move away from clan control, engage the electorate, throw nationalism in the bin, create visibility in all areas, make people responsible for their actions - basically, this is huge social foundation change, and it needs to start at the roots, which it will...

I think most if not everybody on this board wants to get to pretty much the same place. i doubt many if any really want to live in a facist dictatorship, plutocracy or neo-plutocracy. The differences are that disagreements occur in how to get there particular in the minutae, and at times we all get caught up in day to day machinations, propoganda and the realities of things as they stand right now (which doesnt mean they have to always be that way).

As I said myself I have no real feel for how it will be achieved although I think there will be things that surprise us all in some way.

[animatic]

Don't wait by the phone, he needs well considered input only.

[webfact]

flaming post was deleted and warning given