Treatment Of The Disabled

[Gonzo the Face]

I would like to get the input from those who care to contribute as to how you feel the Chiang Mai Business, the Lanna Society and the general population of CM , treat the disabld.

I mean things like parking, accessability to structures, buildings, etc., the attitude of certain Thai operated business and facilities and the general overall attitude to the disabled.

I won't cloud your opinion with mine , but will post my feelings later.

Gonzo

[IanForbes]

It is VERY poor in Thailand by my estimation. I've often remarked how difficult it must be for someone in a wheelchair in Thailand... even in the cities. In Canada we have all sorts of ramps and provisions for physically handicapped people.

[uptheos]

For able bodied people Chiang Mai is an obstacle course.

For disabled people it must be a bloody nightmare!

Unfortunately, compassion and consideration for the disabled, doesn't seem to be one of Chiang Mai's strong points.

[KevinHunt]

I would like to get the input from those who care to contribute as to how you feel the Chiang Mai Business, the Lanna Society and the general population of CM , treat the disabld.

I mean things like parking, accessability to structures, buildings, etc., the attitude of certain Thai operated business and facilities and the general overall attitude to the disabled.

I won't cloud your opinion with mine , but will post my feelings later.

Gonzo

   I had a short period of being 'disabled' following a car crash. Three months on crutches gave me a good insight as to how difficult it is to get around Chiang Mai if you are not completely able-bodied. Practically  impossible is my conclusion. 

   I have a regular visitor to my pub who leaves the cold weather of Norway behind him to spend his time in Chiang Mai - he should be arriving soon. He is mostly confined to a wheelchair and I've seen him , and other wheel-chair bound folk, using the roads to get around because it is so impossible to use the footpath. Outside the El Toro on Loi Kroh Rd the footpath is completely blocked by a telephone booth. Everyone has to walk onto the road in order to proceed down the street. I have a ramp to get into my place but I imagine most places don't. 

   My Norwegian friend is quite a robust character and has travelled all over the world (he's even been to Anfield) and he is fortunate in having a lot of upper body strength, but for others I imagine Chiang Mai would be extremely difficult to get around. Generally speaking, I don't think most businesses or the local council give it much consideration. I don't think Thais expect disabled people to be so adventurous or independent.

    Having said that, I think the average Thai on the street is very helpful and considerate to anyone needing assistance.

[Gonzo the Face]

I have had it told to me that many of the Thais, [not sure it this is truly Buddhist beleif or not] look at someone who is disabled in some way, as being the result of misdeeds done in an earlier life. That they [in this case the locals] should not go out of their way to show concern or sympathy for the disabled as its something they have earned by their misdeeds...... anyone else hear anything like this???

[john b good]

Chiang Mai (and Thailand in general) has demonstrated over and over again that they are light years away from ever reaching 3rd world status.

Their attitude to disabled people is absolutely atrocious.

But it (their attitude) is not limited to disabled people.

Where I come from (and in most every other country in the world that claims to be developed) we have facilities for women with children. Imagine pushing a push chair around Chiang Mai.

The realm is (as I have often been heard to say) a joke.

Equal rights, no gender discrimination, no racial descrimination, no religious descrimination, no descrimination on the basis of marital status, etc., etc., are light years away from ever coming to Thailand.

It doesn't matter whether it is in respect of applying for a job or whatever.

And the people cannot even understand this concept. "or more correctly the lack of it in the realm"

And in part women are to blame for not standing up and being heard.

Sorry Gonzo with all due respect, you won't see any universal user friendly facilities for disabled people in the realm. Not in your life time "which includes not in mine either"

[IanForbes]

What I HAVE done personally is carry a disabled child down to Laem Sing beach on my back, and then went back up for the wheel chair so the elderly gentleman (younger than me but not as physically fit) could pull the child along the beach in Phuket. There was no other way for them to get to the beach. I felt I did my good deed for the day.

[KevinHunt]

I have had it told to me that many of the Thais, [not sure it this is truly Buddhist beleif or not] look at someone who is disabled in some way, as being the result of misdeeds done in an earlier life. That they [in this case the locals] should not go out of their way to show concern or sympathy for the disabled as its something they have earned by their misdeeds...... anyone else hear anything like this???

Although I have heard that, I don't think it means people don't care about the disabled. I'm sure the disabled get plenty of offers of assistance when they are out and about. Thais are decent, compassionate people like everyone else. My staff are very considerate to older people that may need assistance or anyone in a wheelchair. 

    I read an interesting article in the Bangkok post about 20 years ago that compared the then modern Thailand with Victorian Britain. The comparisons were quite stark - beggars, young girls selling flowers on the street, high levels of prostitution, people sifting through garbage..... I think the problem for foreigners trying to understand Thais is often that they think that because Thais have mobile phones , the internet and good cars, they are a modern state. The problem is that all this development is very recent and although the modern gadgets have arrived a modern way of thinking hasn't. I think Thais, just like Victorian Britains, don't expect disabled people to aspire to much. They assume they will stay at home and be taken care of by the family. They don't expect them to get a decent education or to aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer. If businesses don't expect the disabled to be mobile then they don't consider their needs as customers - because they don't expect them to be customers.

   I don't think the treatment of the disabled is because they think they are being punished for deeds in a previous life, or because they don't care. I think it's more to do with a lack of social development. Thais treat the disabled like the Victorian Britains did. As the society develops and as the disabled make their needs better understood then, like everywhere else, Thailand will change.

[Sparkles]

For able bodied people Chiang Mai is an obstacle course.

For disabled people it must be a bloody nightmare!

Unfortunately, compassion and consideration for the disabled, doesn't seem to be one of Chiang Mai's strong points.

I think its the same all over Thailand. In Bangkok disabled people seem to mainly stay home, or they did in my village. Trying to get to a major shopping centre or even trying to use the BTS is impossible. People, in authority, just dont seem to care .In many countries your business would be closed down, and rightfully so, if you didnt provide disabled access. I have often wondered if there is an organisation to lobby the politicians

[gotlost]

I found out what being disabled was after a stroke. As for the people of Thailand they are compassionate toward the disabled but the best thing I can say about the Thai infrastructure for the disabled is that it SUCKS!

[Nignoy]

Come on folks !!mrs Nignoy and I both disabled are just finishing a nice long holiday in thailand and Bali,the attitude to the disabled is no different in the kingdom as in most other countries, try finding a disabled parking spacewith easy wheelchair access in UK or Australia, try coming down steps on sticks in front of acrowd of impatient german tourists as I did on the 28th of last month,result the airport staff assisting us and my wife and I were pushed down stairs my wife and 2 stewardesses badly bruised and shaken Ihave 3 cracked ribs and a chipped elbow, some of the phuket members might have seen us doing the sights with mrs nignoy in her wheelchair, the attitude everywhere towards disabled is improving, must admit chiangmai was pretty hairy, but our friendly hotel staff at the chiangmai gate hotel did us proud as usual,will see what surprises await us at brisbane airport in the morning

[Gonzo the Face]

Nignoy

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate accident. Hope the healing goes well for the both of you.

I wasn't clear on where this down the stairs accident happened. I understand it was in front of some impatient tourists and in an airport , but which airport?

If airport staff were assisting you, why didn't they have you in a wheelchair?

I could only guess it was a third world country, as any developed country would have been worried about a potential lawsuit from the disabled or any of the nearby others, should there have been an accicent. Seems to be dangerous for the disabled and the non disabled at that airport.

What airport was it?

[Nignoy]

Nignoy

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate accident. Hope the healing goes well for the both of you.

I wasn't clear on where this down the stairs accident happened. I understand it was in front of some impatient tourists and in an airport , but which airport?

If airport staff were assisting you, why didn't they have you in a wheelchair?

I could only guess it was a third world country, as any developed country would have been worried about a potential lawsuit from the disabled or any of the nearby others, should there have been an accicent. Seems to be dangerous for the disabled and the non disabled at that airport.

What airport was it?

It was at Suvanaphum airport we were getting off an air asia flight coming from Bali, the germans did not even have the decency to stop , airasia discharge their passengers by stairway directly onto the tarmac where they transported to the terminal , the wheelchair was at the bottom of the stairswe were allowed to leave the plane first, and were just a little bit to slow for the germans!! how did I know they were germans Lived and worked in germany for 20 years or more and speak all the german dialects fluently, but also their bloated red faces and beer bellies are a dead giveway! the airasia staff were brilliant

[Gonzo the Face]

Well glad that you are on the mend....

Not suprised re Air Asia......and I disagree with you re their treatment for the disabled.

Just making you walk down the steps sez it all... They do have hi lifter ambulatory trucks there but air asia does not employ them. Seems like enough people disabled and non disabled getting hurt would slightly encourage them to use the lifts.

Another thing I have seen repeatedly with Air Asia...... with the wheelchairs they make the person themselves or someone traveling with them push the chairs.

Yes the girls are nice and smiley, but there is a wall there as if the discount air fare means we don't have to lower ourselves

Thats just my opinion and I respect yours as yours.

[john b good]

I have had it told to me that many of the Thais, [not sure it this is truly Buddhist beleif or not] look at someone who is disabled in some way, as being the result of misdeeds done in an earlier life. That they [in this case the locals] should not go out of their way to show concern or sympathy for the disabled as its something they have earned by their misdeeds...... anyone else hear anything like this???

Although I have heard that, I don't think it means people don't care about the disabled. I'm sure the disabled get plenty of offers of assistance when they are out and about. Thais are decent, compassionate people like everyone else. My staff are very considerate to older people that may need assistance or anyone in a wheelchair. 

    I read an interesting article in the Bangkok post about 20 years ago that compared the then modern Thailand with Victorian Britain. The comparisons were quite stark - beggars, young girls selling flowers on the street, high levels of prostitution, people sifting through garbage..... I think the problem for foreigners trying to understand Thais is often that they think that because Thais have mobile phones , the internet and good cars, they are a modern state. The problem is that all this development is very recent and although the modern gadgets have arrived a modern way of thinking hasn't. I think Thais, just like Victorian Britains, don't expect disabled people to aspire to much. They assume they will stay at home and be taken care of by the family. They don't expect them to get a decent education or to aspire to being a teacher or a lawyer. If businesses don't expect the disabled to be mobile then they don't consider their needs as customers - because they don't expect them to be customers.

   I don't think the treatment of the disabled is because they think they are being punished for deeds in a previous life, or because they don't care. I think it's more to do with a lack of social development. Thais treat the disabled like the Victorian Britains did. As the society develops and as the disabled make their needs better understood then, like everywhere else, Thailand will change.

"As the society develops and as the disabled make their needs better understood then, like everywhere else, Thailand will change"

It may change Kevin but not in your or your childrens lifetime.

It is not a priority here in the realm.

And on Victorian Britain, that era began over 170 years ago and ended with QV's death almost 110 years ago, so using the same time frame it won't happen in Thailand this century

[harrry]

As a person with a disability living in ChiangMai I have some mixed feelings about this. I find the attitude of Thai people and their willingness to help amazing but the physical conditions are not so good. There is also a lack of awareness that there is anything wrong with the conditions.

[noahvail]

When I first moved to our little town in Issan, my wife was a degreed social worker, working for an NGO whose clientele were the disabled of much of the province. There were over 2,700 disabled in her catchment area, and pretty much worked alone. I drove her around to some of the villages, and saw what I considered to be absolutely horrendous treatment of the disabled. One village had a couple of younger people in wheelchairs; but their houses had only steps, no ramps, and the public toilet facilities (and the *whole* village used these) had no ramp. You can imagine a wheelchair on a dirt road in the rainy season - housebound. Another village had an elderly man with a grandchild who had multiple handicaps. He made physical therapy machines out of wood, bamboo, a bit of rope, and a few nails. These were based on tasks the villagers used in terms of preparing raw foods. After a few years, kids who had been in wheelchairs could make halting steps, others could separate the rice from its husks, and so on. Huge points to the guy for his engineering skills. But no other village had someone like that. And of course the disabled didn't go to school.

A few months ago, we were delighted to hear that the government has allocated some millions of baht to ensure that handicapped kids can go to school, at least through primary school. The cynic in me says it won't go anywhere (and if they "ghettoize" those kids it will be but a small step up), but I hope this is a sea-change for the government. If it works, perhaps some real progress will be made in the general public's attitude toward, and acceptance of, the handicapped in Thailand.

[harrry]

A few months ago, we were delighted to hear that the government has allocated some millions of baht to ensure that handicapped kids can go to school, at least through primary school. The cynic in me says it won't go anywhere (and if they "ghettoize" those kids it will be but a small step up), but I hope this is a sea-change for the government. If it works, perhaps some real progress will be made in the general public's attitude toward, and acceptance of, the handicapped in Thailand.

This is indeed a very positive step. Basically the Government has said it will pay the fees for school and university students wth a disability. THe policy is somewhat flawed however in that it allows the Universities to decide how many students they will accept and whom. This will mean that the selection is almost certainly going to be based on who they can accept without expensive modifications.

In my opinion the money would be better spent on physical access improvements,

[Bearnagh]

This is a very interesting topic that I was thinking about quite recently. As somebody said earlier, Chiangmai is an obstacle course for the able-bodied. I can only imagine for those in wheelchairs it is well nigh impossible to go about in the streets with the high kerbs. the broken pavements, the multiple step-ups & step-downs and the many open gutters etc.etc, not to mention motorbikes parked everywhere.

I talked to my Thai wife about this and, after a pause for thought, she said something that really surprised me.... she said there aren't too many Thai people in wheelchairs really. When I gave her my quizzical look, she explained; In other countries, people very often survive accidents at work and on the roads, but here they are usually dead! At first I thought she was making light of it, but in fact she genuinely meant it. I haven't enough experience of Thailand yet to assess the validity of her opinion but would be interested to hear others' thoughts about this viewpoint.

[envirogirl]

Groups of passionate people had to fight very long and hard for the disabled friendly features we see (use) in the developed world. Certainly the people of my generation completely take this for granted. I have yet to see any developing country make the requirement for these features a national policy. In fact when I see a ramp or some other small provision for the disabled, I am shocked and amazed.

I agree that the disabled stay home here and are not as independent as those back in some of our home countries. In turn, I think this behavior does not bring the demand to the forefront. Otherwise, decision makers are concerned with other issues. Does anyone know if there is any lobby for the disabled? If there is one and it were strong, we could see some positive steps with some effort (funding).

I also think there are stronger social networks here so maybe these people do not have as much of a need to be so independent (desire being another issue).

I also agree that many people who become disabled as a result of accidents are likely not to receive the same level of rehabilitation in Thailand, especially if there are unskilled laborers.

It is a shame this is the case in Thailand, but I don't think the concept is light years away. I think with more development and economic growth, it will be a likely as Thai people are generally compassionate.

[Gonzo the Face]

This is a very interesting topic that I was thinking about quite recently. As somebody said earlier, Chiangmai is an obstacle course for the able-bodied. I can only imagine for those in wheelchairs it is well nigh impossible to go about in the streets with the high kerbs. the broken pavements, the multiple step-ups & step-downs and the many open gutters etc.etc, not to mention motorbikes parked everywhere.

I talked to my Thai wife about this and, after a pause for thought, she said something that really surprised me.... she said there aren't too many Thai people in wheelchairs really. When I gave her my quizzical look, she explained; In other countries, people very often survive accidents at work and on the roads, but here they are usually dead! At first I thought she was making light of it, but in fact she genuinely meant it. I haven't enough experience of Thailand yet to assess the validity of her opinion but would be interested to hear others' thoughts about this viewpoint.

She has a valid point Bearnagh.... but I think that there are a lot of handicapped and disabled Thais that just don't get out. Maybe because of the dificulties you mention. Some very possibly do not have access to even a wheelchair of walking aids.

They can't and don't get out, so they are out of sight , out of mind for all except their respective families....

But agreeing with your wife, I ammend the suggestion to read....... "if you are disabled in any way please give us your opinion, ........ if you are dead and disabled,,,,,,,, replying is optional

[Bearnagh]

.... I ammend the suggestion to read....... "if you are disabled in any way please give us your opinion, ........ if you are dead and disabled,,,,,,,, replying is optional

It's so good to have guys like you on this forum. You can bring a light-hearted moment to even the gravest of issues without insulting or demeaning it. That, sir, is a talent.

[john b good]

Groups of passionate people had to fight very long and hard for the disabled friendly features we see (use) in the developed world. Certainly the people of my generation completely take this for granted. I have yet to see any developing country make the requirement for these features a national policy. In fact when I see a ramp or some other small provision for the disabled, I am shocked and amazed.

I agree that the disabled stay home here and are not as independent as those back in some of our home countries. In turn, I think this behavior does not bring the demand to the forefront. Otherwise, decision makers are concerned with other issues. Does anyone know if there is any lobby for the disabled? If there is one and it were strong, we could see some positive steps with some effort (funding).

I also think there are stronger social networks here so maybe these people do not have as much of a need to be so independent (desire being another issue).

I also agree that many people who become disabled as a result of accidents are likely not to receive the same level of rehabilitation in Thailand, especially if there are unskilled laborers.

It is a shame this is the case in Thailand, but I don't think the concept is light years away. I think with more development and economic growth, it will be a likely as Thai people are generally compassionate.

My use of the term "light years" is used literally.

And as you are probably aware a "light year" is the distance that light travels in one year and at 186,000 miles (300,000 km) per second that is one he11 of a long way.

So you are right insofar as saying it won't really be "light years away"

I do however stand by my statement that it is not gonna change in your, your childrens and most unlikely in your grandchildrens lifetimes.

As for "Thai people are "generally compassionate" that doesn't mean zip.

The money is here (if they stop the corruption) and if they had the will (and the commitment) it could be done in a couple of years "but it ain't gonna be done in your life time" FULL STOP

Why?, because they are all worrying about their own self serving interests rather than a bunch of people who are "out of sight, out of mind"

There are a million initiatives that could be put in place in a heart beat but it ain't gonna happen. Not in Thailand.

As for economic growth, the SET was just a couple of points off 1400 in June 1997. Where is it today? If it has gone above 700 in the last twelve years it has been a rare event.

Don't bury your head in the sand and think anything thing is gonna change over night. If you do you are dreaming.

[Gonzo the Face]

Strange, but the disabled selling lottery tickets seem to be able to get around...

Do the disabled have an exclusive on selling the lottery tics on the streets ?

maybe only in the 10 for 10,000 baht places

[PeaceBlondie]

If you've worked alongside a severely handicapped near-genius, you know the disabled could do far more than sell lottery tickets. Think of Edison, FDR, Steven Hawking, Charles Steinmetz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Proteus_Steinmetz

[Gonzo the Face]

Alfred E. Neuman, and Forest Gump

both have made millions and contributed to the health and happiness of zillions

[john b good]

If you've worked alongside a severely handicapped near-genius, you know the disabled could do far more than sell lottery tickets. Think of Edison, FDR, Steven Hawking, Charles Steinmetz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Proteus_Steinmetz

But sadly the majority of handicapped Thai's are not given the opportunity here in the realm.

In "developed or first world countries" it would be discrimination to deny a handicapped person equal employment opportunities based on their disabilities.

I appreciate that they would find it difficult to gain employment as astronauts, steeple jacks, scaffolders, riggers or other such physically demanding occupations, but there are many occupations that they could do every bit as well as an able bodied person.

Sitting at a desk as an IT specialist or computer programmer is well withing their capabilities BUT, would they get the opportunity here in the realm "not very likely"

[PeaceBlondie]

We agree, john g good. Most of my examples - deaf, home-schooled Edison, polio victim FDR, dwarf cripple Steinmetz - achieved miraculous accomplishments before 1945. What were you saying about Thailand and light years?

[Gonzo the Face]

But PB back up one generation. In the examples you offer, consider the education level of the parents.

To even have a young person with a disability, home schooled, I am afraid that in todays example of most of the disabled children in Thailand, the parents would not even know that home schooling exists. Possibly with the exception of those living in the larger cities, the probablility of the parents having even an elementary education is very low.

It has also been ingrained throughout generations that the disabled are to be schunted aside and almost hidden, as the family accepts that they can never be a productive unit of the family. The cycle repeats itself...... where does the circle start.

Same with normal schools...... the teachers cannot teach that which they do not know.

You graduate with a peice of paper you cannot read, what can that person , now labeled a teacher, teach.

Same with the disabled. If the parents know and accept that there is little worth to the disabled, and they [the parents] are not made aware that there is a possible value, worth and future for their child, then the cycle will repeat itself.

The key is education.... and it will take generations to break that circle.

[envirogirl]

For all we know, there is a lobby rallying in Bangkok as we write. Or maybe tomorrow the princess will decide this will be one of her campaigns. Things can change quickly if people mobilized. Education would take a while, but only if thats the one method for change being depended on. Education in combination with many other well funded campaigns could go quicker.

As many people noted, disabled Thai's and their families are not likely to be very empowered, but that is not to say some external group wouldn't come along and be their voice. For example us. If we are all so passionate about this topic and think the Thai people cant take care of it themselves, then why not get off the forum and do something about it instead of bitching and nagging at one another about silly little points?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some international NGO focused on disabled people. Certainly the human rights org's would be happy to include it in their long list. Believe me, they always need another campaign.

I am not in full belief that the necessary changes would occur in my lifetime, but I am not going to give up hope either. Just think - for 1000's of years slavery was acceptable, but today it is illegal. The start of that shift in perception began with a small group of people and eventually made it around the globe. Not without massive resistance of course.

Sorry to impose my hope onto all of you - but it is an attitude that I must always go with as someone involved in the environmental movement. You can't just throw your hands up and say 'these people will never listen'. Goodness, 30 years ago environmental advocates hated 'the man' and now green business is as popular as renewable energy. I don't think we should give up on everything because of corruption - how weak. Tell me one government that is not corrupt.