Do Thai People Even Like Us ? Or Aare We Just Atms

[Maizefarmer]

This whole subject makes me bite my lip: where is the evidence that Thai's as a group of people perceive Westerners as ATM's?

The only true part in al this is that most Thai's (as a racial, ethnic or national group... however you wish to define them) are all to well aware that by Thai income standards and by cost of living standards (in Thailand) , most Westerners, and some Asians and even more so, Japanese (more so than Westerners i would think), can afford alot more than they can.

There is nothing stereotypical in this - it's obvious Western (and certain other Asian) incomes by and large give visitors to Thailand a lot of spending power.

So where/how does the ATM myth arise?

Well, lets start off by taking a look at the cirumstances and enviroment in which the overwhelming amount of interaction between male vistors to Thailand and locals takes place (and before someone says, "not me, I don't" - I am making a generilisation, I accept it does not apply to everyone):it's in the "bright lights" business, or if you will the bar/night life enviroment - and the extra\s avaliable at such places, should one wish to avail themselves to the extras.

And what counts in this business enviroment? - the size of your wallet and how much can be extracted from it in as little time as possible - after all it's not exactly an enviroment one associates with personal morals and ethical accounting/business practises, now is it. The avarega eThai hooker as as much respect for the average punter as they have for her (and again, yes I accept that there are no doubt exceptions in this as well, but as a generilisation I think the above is a pretty fair overview of the nature of the business and the respective attitudes participants have [for each other]).

Is it little suprize folk come away with less than complimentry attitudes about the girls and/or the busines overall (?) - it's reciprocal.

BUT - the bright lights enviroment and the girls that work in it actually account for a very small percentage of all girls in Thailand, and even smaller percentage of Thai's overall when looked at as a group part of the overall group of Thai people. Actually, most Thai girls wouldn't be caught dead in a PatPong or Pattaya beach bar, let along work in one.

So why is it Thai's as group are branded with the ATM myth?

Because as I said above, not withstanding the small group within Thai's overall from which this impression perhaps justifiably arises, it is that socio-economic group of Thai's which has the most exposure to tourists/visitors.

Funny isn't it how such a small group of people can have such a profound effect on the perception others develope of a whole country and it's people.

Having said all that, it would niaeve to state that the ATM perception is limited exclsuively to this small group of Thai's.

Nope, it is not - you only have read TV to know that their many folk who have had unfortuneate experiences when it comes to money matters and Thai's. Examples of such often expressed on the forum are experiences folk have had in dealing with their Thai in-laws (though a large percentage of that goes back to the "bright lights" origin of the relationship), but also in doing business that has absolutelt nothing at all to do with "bright lights" folk e.g. house purchases, getting ripped off in business dealings, car purchases .... and I could go on and on......

No question about, there seems to be a lot of it going on, and each time folk come away feeling they were ripped off, or treated as if they were nothing other than a limitless pot of money into which folk could dip when they wanted for whatever they wanted ... the "ATM perception".

Does it happen here dissproportionately so as compared to other countries with high ratio's of ex-pats to locals and the amount of business conducted between the 2 groups. Yes - I think there maybe some truth to that. But let;s understand how this comes about.

First and foremost, is the failure of ex-pats doing "business" of any sort in Thailand to understand the rules & Regs (the law if you will), how to go about things the right way, failure to get independent and unbiased advise, and last but not least: failure to conduct basic due-dilligence.

Why - why does it happen in Thailand as much as it does? Good question - language and culture has to be part of it i.e. failure to communicate. For example, much of what we see and understand as corruption is not perceived by Thai's as corruption in the sense Westeners see it. Doing business successfully in many parts of Asia (and this is a bigger issue in places like China and Vietnam - amongst other South Asian coutnries) involves backhanders and under-the-tables fees - paying the middel man a slice of the cake. Giving the man who effected the introduction a 10% slice of the cake for no more than making an intro, would be considered by many Wessterners as "taking the cake" - to Asians in these countries (including Thailand - ignoring the exact percentage figure), it is part and parcel of doing business - it is accepted practise, part of establishing relationships, and if followed through with by both parties is usualy both remembered and contributes postively to establsihment and maintence of that relationship for many years to come.

The above example is perhaps not a very good one, but it serves to illustrate what I feel is a failure on the part of many folk doing "business" in Asia i.e. a failure to udnerstand how to go about things, when & when not an under-the-table/bribe if you will/ get out jail free card payment is acceptable and when it is not - and how to handle the matter overall. In short: a failure on their (i.e. the ex-pat's) part to appreciate situation in which thsi sort of thing arise, and see it in any other way than with their own set of culturale values.

Lets take the transport sector as an example: traffic cops are endlessly pulling over trucks day and night, and taking small amounts of cash from truckers to ensure the journey goes well and they are not unduly delayed. You can choose to co-operate or not co-operate. Those who co-operate (and I am one of those who do) can pre-pay on a monthly or quaterly basis - and for that you will get a small discreete sticker or some other similar mark that you stick on your truck (in my case it's the 2 old Scania trucks I use to move my tractors and forgae harvester around the North east each season to plough fields and harvest maize for other farmers). When stopped I (or my driver) will produce all the usual documentation and indicate to the traffic cop where the sticker is placed, which he wil duely "inspect" to ensure it's up to date, and then let you go on your way.

To me thats an "insurance policy" of sorts - in more ways than one - it saves me money and it saves me a lot of other hassle as well - I may have a broken light on one of the trucks. In Europe or the USA if stopped with a mechanical horse/ trailer with a load at night a broken light I was not aware was broken would not be an excuse - I'd still get the fine. In Thailand. I will be asked to get it fixed, and I have no objection to getting it fixed. the problem arises when this payment system to smooth the way is abused by both truckers and cops e.g. the trucker who is using the system to avoid having to replace those worn tyre's on his truck. he knows he can now get away with it till the very last moment - and in the process to hel_l with the safety of other road users. Thats when the system breaks down and no-one benefits. ..... and I can think of a dozen similar and comparable examples i.e. understanding when it's appropriate and when it's not appropriate. By the same token, if the truck driver fined in one province for overworn tyres, he's open to another fine as soon as he gets stopped again after crossing the provincial boundary. I have an issue with that, and I think most truck owners drivers would. It somehow isn;t right that if stopped on a journey for a worn tyre, fined and permitted to carry on, that you can then be stopped again a 100 miles up the road and fined again. Why not just take the truck off the road - surely if the situation warants repeated fining (on the same journey) it warrants been taken off the road(?) The point I am making, is that the pre-payment system is used by the cops in these situations to ensure that if you are fined once, you won't be fined again on the same journey.

The argument I suppose one could reply with is that you shouldn't be paying anything to cops in the first place. Fair enough, but my reply to that is that I don' think it right the cops should be fining drivers every 100miles or so (or whenever the cross a provincial boundary) for something that you were pulled over and fined for earlier on the same journey- which is otherwise what could/would happen.

And there is another way of looking at this: it's my experience with respect to the above, that I have been treated no differently to how a Thai in the same position is treated. The fact that I am a "farang" or that the truck is farang owned has never been an issue. I understand the system, and I work with it when I think it can be justified, and in an odd way it;s also my experience that Thai cops "appreciate it" (for lack of a better word) when they see you understand the system and work with it.

In summary: yes there are certainly examples cited from time to time,and quite rightly so, of ex-pats been taken advantage of and abused when it comes to fiancial matters. But many of these (and other) instances are examples of been ripped off which could just as likely have happened anywhere else under the same set of cirucmstances i.e. the intention of the other party to take advanatge of your naievity, and your failure to do your homework and due-dilligence before getting yourself involved. What makes it so much more likely to happen in Thailadn is the culturale/lanaguage and communication gap thats exists here versus similar examples in other parts of world where it is (or would have been) so much easier to ensure or the t's were crossed and the i's were dotted.

Do your homework and do your due-dilligence - make sure you understand exactly what the rules & reg's are before buying that house, before buying shares in that business or getting invovled in a buisness proposition - take independent and unbiased advise from a paid professional. the apparent laxity with which one can often go about bsuines sin Thailand is all the more reason for exercsing extra caution.

'nuff said.............

Edited December 22, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[yabaaaa]

Does the OP run around his own country wondering if all foreigners are liked by him? I suspect most Thais dont give foreigners a second thought.

[kikoman]

I am married but agree that if you marry a girl you marry her family. My Thai Wife lives In my country with me and I like her to be part of my family for better or Worse same as she expects me when we are in Thailand. For most people family is the most important thing to them so respect on both sides is essential for a happy marriage.

I totally agree with your post, when you marry a women you also marry into her family. Was that way in my native Mexico as it is here in Thailand. If one is to take the step of marrying a woman of another culture, it is best one understands the situation one is entering.

I was told all the horror stories about Thai families in the Country, I visited the village and the family without the slightest thought of moving out here. I was so overwhelmed by the family, friends and over all show of acceptance in the village. that I chose to move here despite my wifes objections, that I would soon become bored with village life.

That was the best decision ,I ever made! and it has been four years now, how time fly s when your having fun!

Cheers:

Edited December 23, 2009 by Crossy

[pjclark1]

I don't believe giving the family money gains you respect, they just see you as foolish.

Still if it makes you happy why not become widely known as a fool.

[phetaroi]

I agree that there are those who see us as walking ATMs, but there are others who are just the opposite.

We have maid...well, there goes my argument...she is actually a Burmese here legally. We pay her for 8 hours a week at a fixed rate of 800 baht. However, I pay her 1000 baht. Then, of her own accord, she works extra hours. I pay her 100 baht per hour extra anyway.

She is clearly perplexed by the extra pay. Always tries to give it back. I am satisfied with the situation. She occasionally does a few extras around the house -- going to pick up water if we are running low, taking the shirts to the tailor for the sleeves to be shortened -- things not hired for, but she seems to be extremely happy working here.

I had a Thai ex who, I'm embarrassed to admit did -- for a short while -- use me as a walking ATM once we were back in the States. I wasn't too dumb for very long.

My current significant other is quite the opposite. During months that I take in more than I spend, my SO gets a share. Very uncomfortable about that. As we go around, always trying to conserve expenses. Drives me crazy. "We're not poor!" is one of the most common things I say here at home.

On the other hand, the country is full of scammers who are, by the way, quite deservedly poor. Instant karma.

[Oberkommando]

Then there are others who have not partaken in the bar scene but simply live here and only ever meet other Farangs. These people do not interact socially with Thai people at all. The only time they speak or interact is when they are buying something.

I dont believe any person is qualified to comment on the nature of Thai people unless they regularly socialize with local people. This probably excludes many people on this forum.

I choose not to socialise with Thais.

I have been here over 25 years and I simply just don't like the vast majority of them.

[caf]

Then there are others who have not partaken in the bar scene but simply live here and only ever meet other Farangs. These people do not interact socially with Thai people at all. The only time they speak or interact is when they are buying something.

I dont believe any person is qualified to comment on the nature of Thai people unless they regularly socialize with local people. This probably excludes many people on this forum.

I choose not to socialise with Thais.

I have been here over 25 years and I simply just don't like the vast majority of them.

I accept you have a choice. Thanks for being frank.

Of the minority that you do like, what do you like about them. Your response may put this thread in perspective . cheers

[kikoman]

Getting along or being part of a family, dose not include giving money to the family.

That is one of the assumptions that some falangs have that causes them problems. Assuming that they have to buy acceptance.

I pay my wifes uncle to weed the yard a couple of times a month, on the birthdays of the children of the immediate family, I give them gifts.

During family out of town visits to my home, I buy most of the food and provide lodging.

I did not give the parents any bride price when, I married my wife, nor did they ask me for any! As she had been married before and I took over support and care of her two daughters.

At times I lend family members small amounts of money for insect treatment of the rice crop, that is immediately repaid at rice harvesting time, at times I borrow small sums of money from my wifes family when we run short, that I immediately repay when my funds , enter my bank account.

Not anything different then the old country and my interaction with family members there!

You are only taken advantage of if you allow it!

Cheers:

Edited December 23, 2009 by kikoman

[caf]

Getting along or being part of a family, dose not include giving money to the family.

That is one of the assumptions that some falangs have that causes them problems. Assuming that they have to buy acceptance.

I pay my wifes uncle to weed the yard a couple of times a month, on the birthdays of the children of the immediate family, I give them gifts.

During family out of town visits to my home, I buy most of the food and provide lodging.

I did not give the parents any bride price when, I married my wife, nor did they ask me for any! As she had been married before and I took over support and care of her two daughters.

At times I lend family members small amounts of money for insect treatment of the rice crop, that is immediately repaid at rice harvesting time, at times I borrow small sums of money from my wifes family when we run short, that I immediately repay when my funds , enter my bank account.

Not anything different then the old country and my interaction with family members there!

Cheers:

I agree with you. There are many farangs who equate giving money as getting respect. They are using a western mindset to some extent.

An example but there are many more which posters can add. Giving an exorbitant tip without realisng that the Thai thinks that is just a farang showing off. So the farang actually does not achieve anything by his action which is perceived very differently from how it would be viewed in the west. Best to tip the way Thais do.

[Maizefarmer]

Giving money will earn you lots of smiles, but it won't earn you respect.

Saying "no" wil loose the smiles, but will earn you the respect - though its hardly likely that's going to be admitted to!

[Pakboong]

Not much different from marrying a girl from the projects in my home country. If I were to try and live in the projects myself, the potential for not liking my life would be greatly elevated. Not being from the projects myself would be a considerable handicap to any kind of decent life.

Try moving your Issan girl friend into the house next door to a well to do Thai/Chinese family. You will soon understand that you are their worst nightmare and that any kind of disrespect in Issan was nothing by comparison.

[TheJalapenoKid]

Interesting that everyone called you khun.... Was that at your gf s instigation knowing your views on the use of farang?

In a normal situation you would hear farang if they don't know your name, and children and those of around your age would use words other than khun. A child in a family you know well would may call you grandfather ( depending also on whether you know the father or the mother better) or uncle if not known so well or lung farang if they dont know your name.

And who makes the first wai?

My guess is that calling me Khun Vincent was a stated expectation in advance, although unbeknown to me.

The whole farang thing doesn't bother me if you are strangers. When I walk in a non-touristy place and I hear the excited children ("frang, farang!") it just makes me laugh and I usually make a point of coming face to face and attempting to talk to them.

I once asked one of my Thai students in America if he thought "farang" was derogatory. His answer was yes or no, depends on the context. I asked him how he liked be a farang. Of course, he said "I am not farang because I am Thai." I said, "But you are living in America now, so here you are farang." There was a silence, the wheels started turning, and then a big smile and laugh.

Not only who makes the first wai, but is it a wai or handshake. I've tried both approaches, and half the time whichever I do, they have already gone the other way.

You are evry lucky, is your wife quite a family member? I hate being called Farang by my wifes family members.... YOU KNOW MY NAME, USE IT!... mu name is also VERY VERY easy for Asian people to pronounce.. no excuses.

Like you say, if its a stranger, or im at the hospital and im being referred to as Farang then ok no problem... i just believe it is very disrespectful to call someone a Farang when they are friends/family and know your name.... i even caught my wife saying it once and waitied till we got home before i b*llocked her!

On a funny note, if the kids on the street see me out on my bike and they shout "Farang" at me, i tend to call them a pineapple or a farang fruit in Laos/Issan... you should see their faces lol

JPK

[carmine]

Interesting that everyone called you khun.... Was that at your gf s instigation knowing your views on the use of farang?

In a normal situation you would hear farang if they don't know your name, and children and those of around your age would use words other than khun. A child in a family you know well would may call you grandfather ( depending also on whether you know the father or the mother better) or uncle if not known so well or lung farang if they dont know your name.

And who makes the first wai?

My guess is that calling me Khun Vincent was a stated expectation in advance, although unbeknown to me.

The whole farang thing doesn't bother me if you are strangers. When I walk in a non-touristy place and I hear the excited children ("frang, farang!") it just makes me laugh and I usually make a point of coming face to face and attempting to talk to them.

I once asked one of my Thai students in America if he thought "farang" was derogatory. His answer was yes or no, depends on the context. I asked him how he liked be a farang. Of course, he said "I am not farang because I am Thai." I said, "But you are living in America now, so here you are farang." There was a silence, the wheels started turning, and then a big smile and laugh.

Not only who makes the first wai, but is it a wai or handshake. I've tried both approaches, and half the time whichever I do, they have already gone the other way.

You are evry lucky, is your wife quite a family member? I hate being called Farang by my wifes family members.... YOU KNOW MY NAME, USE IT!... mu name is also VERY VERY easy for Asian people to pronounce.. no excuses.

Like you say, if its a stranger, or im at the hospital and im being referred to as Farang then ok no problem... i just believe it is very disrespectful to call someone a Farang when they are friends/family and know your name.... i even caught my wife saying it once and waitied till we got home before i b*llocked her!

On a funny note, if the kids on the street see me out on my bike and they shout "Farang" at me, i tend to call them a pineapple or a farang fruit in Laos/Issan... you should see their faces lol

JPK

My family here never refer to me as farang, only by my christian name. It's a "term"i detest anyway but, if your in laws refer to you as farang i would have to question the degree of your acceptance to them seeing as every Tom Dick and Harry is labelled this. It certainly shows no respect

[phetaroi]

if your in laws refer to you as farang i would have to question the degree of your acceptance to them seeing as every Tom Dick and Harry is labelled this. It certainly shows no respect

I think you just dissed everyone named Tom, Dick, and Harry!