Unfair Dismissal (and contract violations)

[007]

Can a Thai employer, e.g. a school, breach an employment contract for the following reasons?

1. Teacher doesn't consult teaching manual (teacher's book) (Which is incorrect.)

2. Teacher doesn't know all the 120 names of his students after teaching at the school for 8 weeks.

[Nowhereman60]

You get the feeling that for some reason someone doesn't like you at this school. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks for some reason they don't want you. You're not going to win in the long run and only going to make more waves for yourself. No it's not fair I agree that it would be hard to know everyone names. But that's life. Good luck finding another job.

[tonititan]

Good question. I have no idea what they CAN do. I don't think they SHOULD fire you for number 2 - that's getting a little ridiculous. But more importantly, is the job really worth it? I personally would have no interest in working for a school that didn't want me there. I'd rather just move on. Do you think those are the real reasons they want to get rid of you, or are there other issues that they aren't coming out and saying?

[007]

You get the feeling that for some reason someone doesn't like you at this school. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks for some reason they don't want you. You're not going to win in the long run and only going to make more waves for yourself. No it's not fair I agree that it would be hard to know everyone names. But that's life. Good luck finding another job.

I presume, that they want to save money. Recently they replaced the majority of native speakers with Filipino teachers, giving those a much lower salary. Main reason for my dismissal seems to be, that they want to save the fee for the one-year visa extension. As for my position, I'm the fourth or fifth western teacher in only one year(!) - the previous one was fired for smoking! Avoid this school at any cost; they either won't provide you with proper paperwork (as happened to several native speakers before me), or, at best will do so for only three month (as happened to me). Oh yes, the school is a large government secondary school on Soi Udomsuk, in an alley with a 7-ELeven at the corner.

[007]

No it's not fair I agree that it would be hard to know everyone names. But that's life. Good luck finding another job.

Thank you.

[Ijustwannateach]

Unfortunately, at many schools the foreign teacher is simply a money magnet. If the school can convince/hoodwink the parents into paying the same margins for still-relatively-fluent Fiipinos, then the money talks. You probably don't want to work at schools like that, though, and you can be sure that the Filipinos will suffer the same expendability once their usefulness in attracting fees expires- probably to result in the rehiring of native speakers again!!!

From a legal standpoint, as such a new hire you have very little recourse. I wouldn't bother fighting it, although you may be able to negotiate a more comfortable (read: paid) departure by using the marks as a bargaining chip, etc. If things don't fall apart totally you may also (ironically) get someone to write you a recommendation.

[Scott]

Whether the dismissal is unfair or not is probably a moot point. Does it contravene Thai Labor Law is the better question. Were you dismissed while on probation?

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm listening to an old Austin band, Timbuk 3. The future's so bright, ya' gotta wear shades. Hair styles and attitudes: your hair style only tells which one of the three stooges you most closely resemble. Finally, "Life is hard."

There are good reasons the prior teachers left.

[Loaded]

If you have only worked 8 weeks, you are probably still in your probationary period and the school can do what they want.

After 3 months labour law and severance entitlements kick in.

[way2muchcoffee]

Hmmm. Eight weeks to learn the names of 120 students is more than enough. As a teacher it is your responsibility to know the names of your students. Four weeks maximum for that number of students I would think. A reason to fire you? No, I don't agree. A reason to reprimand you? Certainly.

[PeaceBlondie]

Hmmm. Eight weeks to learn the names of 120 students is more than enough. As a teacher it is your responsibility to know the names of your students. Four weeks maximum for that number of students I would think. A reason to fire you? No, I don't agree. A reason to reprimand you? Certainly.

It depends. If he sees them several hours per week in small groups. If he only is expected to 'memorize' 82% of the nicknanes. But not if he must memorize 120 sets of "Boom Wachanoratat Ravamongkholdoowop and Piano Anchawana Poopsadooxhongse."

[Credo]

Learning the names of 120 students has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of teaching. This is especially true since some Thais change their name more often than their underwear!

[flukieireland]

Learning the names of 120 students has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of teaching. This is especially true since some Thais change their name more often than their underwear!

I have 3 classes a week with 18 students and I knew their name after 2 days, 2 classes a week with 12 students and I knew them after the first class. I have 9 different classes of 44/45 students a week. After 6 weeks I am starting to learn the trouble makers’ names. I'm have no idea how I could learn the rest without wasting their time on me learning their names instead of trying to teach them.

If you haven't been working longer than 3 months you can do nothing.

[007]

Whether the dismissal is unfair or not is probably a moot point. Does it contravene Thai Labor Law is the better question. Were you dismissed while on probation?

No, shortly (4 days) after the probation ended. They let me finish lesson plans and exam papers, before coming out with the bombshell. As how they did it, it was clear that they wanted to save the money for the visa extension. They are paying me until the end of the month, though. Mind you, I took all the grading sheets with me, so they'll have to start from scratch, in the same way as I started in the middle of the term.

[PeaceBlondie]

Withholding student marks to adnin is a hollow threat. They make love marks out of nothing at all.

[Ijustwannateach]

In any case, the real procedure for terminating an employee in Thailand involves a verbal warning and then a written warning for the same offense, which must both offer some time for the employee to improve (and indicate what would constitute improvement). It sounds like they simply want to get rid of you and are using any excuse they can manufacture. Cowardly and transparent.

On the other hand, even if you could fight this, would you really want to keep working at a place that behaved like this?

[phetaroi]

...

Mind you, I took all the grading sheets with me, so they'll have to start from scratch, in the same way as I started in the middle of the term.

It sounds as if you have decided to punish the students for what the school has done to you.

[Scott]

I don't agree with taking the grading sheets, but I can understand doing it. I might add, I don't know if the students will be punished, but the administration sure will.

[Ijustwannateach]

It sounds to me like this school has a history of screwing the teachers- otherwise why wouldn't there have been grades in the middle of term from the previous teacher, and why are they having 3 teachers for the same class in the same term?- and the administration people there don't give a dam_n how it affects the students, either. Frankly, such a school doesn't deserve either students or teachers, and I feel sorry for either group who winds up there.

[mizzi39]

I don't agree with taking the grading sheets, but I can understand doing it. I might add, I don't know if the students will be punished, but the administration sure will.

I have to agree with PB on this one. Taking the grading sheets is just a hollow threat. The administration will just "re-assess" the students, and poof, new grading sheets based on their "assessment", so yes, out of nothing at all.

[PeaceBlondie]

I did something like that once - resigned with notice, fell off bike, spent final days in hosp. etc, before leaving town. They never asked for the marks. Never.

[Credo]

I am not sure if it's OK to post this here, but it has to do with unfair treatment and contracts. A friend who works at a school was recently diagnosed with a contagious illness (not seriously contagious), but enough that he was advised by the Dr. to stay at home and had a written Dr.'s excuse for the time off. The school was informed and seemed to be in agreement. He has now been informed that his pay will be cut by two weeks for his absence, even though his contract says he gets 10 days of sick leave. They are also using a different formula for calculating the salary for the month of December, so he will effectively be cut for the 7th and 10th even though they are a holiday.

Any suggestions?

[Scott]

Since it is of a similar vein, we will leave the last post here. I'll change the topic title to reflect a broader subject.

[Ijustwannateach]

In many schools, the foreign teacher's grade is only part of an actual subject grade, so I can understand if the Thai teachers are not too bothered if they simply have to come up with another column to put in as part of a mark. However, for full subject teachers whose marks are the only grades for a class, withholding could be damaging- however, it is damaging all around and should not be lightly done.

Credo, in reference to your topic- if a lawyer is consulted and writes a letter, the school will almost certainly be forced to retreat (and possibly could be asked to pay the lawyer's fee). Mentioning first that the teacher is going to approach a lawyer might be a way to help the school realise that he won't back down, but in case they are exceptionally stupid and childish he will need to be ready to back up his threat; either way, it is a sign that no one should work at that school and teachers there- and parents!- should not under any circumstances trust the management- who are not only being bad managers but also encouraging the endangering of the children by penalising a teacher who is being responsible by protecting the kids under his care.

I think if he speaks out strongly in this vein he will not make many friends but he will win his cause. Either way, he should start looking for another job and preferably leave at the most inconvenient time for the school.

[ThailandTigers]

I would just let it lie, and move on to greener pastures.

[Credo]

Thanks for the input. I am pretty sure the school doesn't really want this teacher. In the end, it will be up to him. The Administration of his school and my school are close and that's part of my interest in his situation. I don't want to see his employment problem spread like a catchy disease!

[007]

...

Mind you, I took all the grading sheets with me, so they'll have to start from scratch, in the same way as I started in the middle of the term.

It sounds as if you have decided to punish the students for what the school has done to you.

Well, even in the past it happened that the Thai teachers significantly 'upped' the foreign teachers' marks to make the school and the students save face.

[Kitsch22]

Whether the dismissal is unfair or not is probably a moot point. Does it contravene Thai Labor Law is the better question. Were you dismissed while on probation?

No, shortly (4 days) after the probation ended. They let me finish lesson plans and exam papers, before coming out with the bombshell. As how they did it, it was clear that they wanted to save the money for the visa extension. They are paying me until the end of the month, though. Mind you, I took all the grading sheets with me, so they'll have to start from scratch, in the same way as I started in the middle of the term.

You make it sound as though the grading sheets were produced by you during the period for which you have been paid. If that is correct, then would you not agree that your depriving the school of the sheets amounts to theft?

[BlackArtemis]

Best thing to do is just tell fellow teachers in your area to avoid it. But if they are replacing teachers with Filipinos they will never have a problem. They get shit on worse than anybody but still stick at those jobs because of the screwed up philosophy of what makes a good teacher...

[Scott]

I think it would be hard to prove 'theft' unless the plans were already submitted and you took them without permission. If the plans were made, but not submitted, then the school could do it, but that would require some action outside the school and they will avoid that.