Nuclear Power Plants

[Gerontion]

Your post is just another one of the unsubstantiated blanket smears that are so common on TV. Maybe this will give you an answer to your "What is it that some folks find so offensive?....." topic - I don't actually find it offensive - I find these generalized all-encompassing derogatory comments about Thais to be childish, petty, narrow minded,ignorant, revealing & a whole lot more. The "my ex girlfriend & her family fuc_ked me over so all Thais are money grubbing whores" type shit is getting rather old. For fuc_k's sake!

It's a shame this forum doesn't use reputation points because that certainly deserves one.

[Brunus]

"The National Anti Corruption Commission has marked 2010 for the awareness campaign mobilising one million people to root out corruption, NACC member Pakdee Pothisiri said on Wednesday.

The widespread graft violations has become a deep-rooted problem plaguing society so much so that many are indifferent to corruption.

In a recent survey commissioned by the Public Sector Anti Corruption Commission, almost one in three lawmakers said they viewed corruption as normal and an intrinsic factor in life.

Almost nine in ten people rated corruption as serious to most serious problem in society. And about six in ten businessmen said they had had first-hand experience about bribery.

Factors attributed to the rise in corruption include patronage system, consumerism, weakened justice system, various dark influences and the people's indiffernce to the problem."

This is from this website.

For me this is an excellent reason not to have a nuclear plant here.

[Brunus]

....

Thailand is a lot like Italy used to be when I was young. Maybe that's why I like it. Once you deal with surgeons or pilots, who directly respond for their action, people take responsibilities and do the job well. Once they are in a position where the responsibilities are not clear, when a lot of money is invested and bad (but sometimes "respectable") people get involved, things change. I don't know where you come from, but if you were Italian and talk the way you talk, people would think you are naive. Don't want to offend you. Maybe you come from a country where things go the way they should. But believe me. Italy and Thailand are different....

I don't want to offend you either but your argument is absurd, it is based on some emotional & vague 'connection' between Thailand & the Italy of your youth.

Equally absurd is the notion that a Thai nuclear engineer or technician would not take responsibility for his/her job & do it well.

I doubt we will reach any common ground as why Thais should not build/operate nuclear power stations as I don't subscribe to your 'mai pen rai' argument. Agree to disagree.

Solar is no magic solution - not yet & will never be able to provide baseload energy (the sun does not shine at night). I suspect that geothermal will be the ultimate energy source of the future (see Iceland). Thailand may benefit from being close to 'the ring of fire'. Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS) still experimental but receiving a lot of US government money.

No offense. But I think you misunderstood. I compare Thailand to Italy just to prove that I am not racist and I don't think Thais are stupid. I just think that Thailand and Italy are not ready for a nuclear plant. I explained my reasons in other posts.

[GuestHouse]

^^ Actually, I had in mind Britain and America - I don't really know enough about the Germany or Sweden to have an informed opinion. I was objecting more to the idea that there's some kind of culturally determined incompetence in running a power station; it's the offensive 'They can't do it because they're Thai' rather than the more sensible 'Governments can't be trusted to look out for the people'. The former is just pretty much straightforward racism, the latter is a reasonable statement which might or might not be true.

I don't believe anyone is making the argument that Thais can't implement Nuclear Energy because they are Thai - I and others however are pointing out a number of Cultural Problems that do give rise to a huge question mark.

Some have objected to comments about "Mai Bpen Rai" but "Mai Bpen Rai" is a real Thai cultural issue that cannot be denied - It might perhaps better be understood as a catch all phrase for the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the.

We have the very good example of the Map Tha Phut Industrial Area to look at - A number of highly dangerous processes, that you say it is racist to suggest Thais cannot run safely - and yet the evidence on the ground, in the air and in the water table around Map Tha Phut is precisely that there are serious deficiencies in the operation of these dangerous plants - Moreover that these deficiencies have been swept under the carpet of a couple of decades, nothing ever getting done about it and a constant attitude of denial of the problem and ignoring the people who's live's it affects.

Corruption, a lack of transparency, the persecution (and murder) of people who advocate protecting communities, stubborn political face and yes the Mai Bpen Rai attitude are all arguments against Thailand building Nuclear Reactors. They are all real factors in real Thai society - It is not racist to consider these real cultural traits but it is certainly stupidity to ignore them.

Be assured, corruption is almost certainly already playing a part in the decision on what Thailand should do about Nuclear Energy.

Edited December 16, 2009 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Here's some interesting reading Business Risks and Costs of New Nuclear Power

The report is published in 2009 by Craig A. Severance. A practicing CPA. Severance is co-author of The Economics of Nuclear and Coal Power, and former assistant to the chairman and to commerce counsel, Iowa State Commerce Commission.

This from the executive summary.

Given this discrepancy, nuclear’s history of cost overruns, and the fact new generation designs have

never been constructed any where, there is a major business risk nuclear power will be more

costly than projected. Recent construction cost estimates imply capital costs/kWh (not counting

operation or fuel costs) from 17-22 cents/kWh when the nuclear facilities come on-line. Another

major business risk is nuclear’s history of construction delays. Delays would run costs higher, risking

funding shortfalls. The strain on cash flow is expected to degrade credit ratings.

Now what was that about Nuclear Energy being cheap...... and are we really considering these new generation of reactors that have yet to be built anywhere else?

Edited December 16, 2009 by GuestHouse

[LooseCannon]

I don't believe anyone is making the argument that Thais can't implement Nuclear Energy because they are Thai - I and others however are pointing out a number of Cultural Problems that do give rise to a huge question mark.

Some have objected to comments about "Mai Bpen Rai" but "Mai Bpen Rai" is a real Thai cultural issue that cannot be denied - It might perhaps better be understood as a catch all phrase for the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the.

We have the very good example of the Map Tha Phut Industrial Area to look at - A number of highly dangerous processes, that you say it is racist to suggest Thais cannot run safely - and yet the evidence on the ground, in the air and in the water table around Map Tha Phut is precisely that there are serious deficiencies in the operation of these dangerous plants - Moreover that these deficiencies have been swept under the carpet of a couple of decades, nothing ever getting done about it and a constant attitude of denial of the problem and ignoring the people who's live's it affects.

Corruption, a lack of transparency, the persecution (and murder) of people who advocate protecting communities, stubborn political face and yes the Mai Bpen Rai attitude are all arguments against Thailand building Nuclear Reactors. They are all real factors in real Thai society - It is not racist to consider these real cultural traits but it is certainly stupidity to ignore them.

Be assured, corruption is almost certainly already playing a part in the decision on what Thailand should do about Nuclear Energy.

'Mai pen rai' is an attitude,a mindset that is exercised in a whole range of different circumstances, which results in a whole range of different outcomes which may or may not be beneficial to the individual, the immediate circle or society as a whole. In its most benign form it is merely a coping mechanism for minor irritants that occur in daily living. In its worst form 'mai pen rai' allows corruption to flourish, it's uttering implies a passive acceptance of the status quo, but for the most part offers no explanation for the underlying reasoning which may be due to apathy, or fear, or feeling of disenpowerment & helplessness etc.

Thais are perfectly capable of adopting or not adopting a 'mai pen rai' attitude depending on circumstance & situation.

"...the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the (it?)."

Let's apply this statement of yours to a specific organisation - Thai International Airways - a complex business requiring high levels of technical ability.

Here we have an organisation with a notoriously corrupt upper management, we have an organisation that's flight crew are 99%+ Thai, an organisation whose Thai based engineering & maintenance staff are 99%+ Thai, all of which must exhibit, according to you, this negative 'mai pen rai' cultural trait, yet it operates & has operated for many years safely & efficiently & has even received international awards.

Thais are perfectly capable of operating a nuclear power plant safely - your reasoning is absurd & not supported by reality of what Thais are capable of. Maybe you can take a look at some of the major engineering projects that have been built with foreign/Thai partnerships that have been up to a world class standard (despite the snouts in the trough & stench of corruption) - you can start with the Bhumibol Bridge.

Between 1970 - 2009 - Thai International had 3 accidents that resulted in fatalities.

In this same time period these airlines - American Airlines (13), United Airlines (11), US Airways (9) & Delta Airlines (7) from the most technologically advanced & culturally superior (in the eyes of many) have a truly shameful record - not a trace of 'mai pen rai', but using your argument, Americans shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a nuclear power station, let alone build & operate them.

You need to take off your 'Jaundiced coloured Thai Visa' glasses & look around you - Thais do many things very badly & with a level of incompetence that would make anybody cry, but they also do things very well, they have engineers, surgeons, pilots etc. that are the equal of any from your country.

[LooseCannon]

Here's some interesting reading Business Risks and Costs of New Nuclear Power

The report is published in 2009 by Craig A. Severance. A practicing CPA. Severance is co-author of The Economics of Nuclear and Coal Power, and former assistant to the chairman and to commerce counsel, Iowa State Commerce Commission.

This from the executive summary.

Given this discrepancy, nuclear’s history of cost overruns, and the fact new generation designs have

never been constructed any where, there is a major business risk nuclear power will be more

costly than projected. Recent construction cost estimates imply capital costs/kWh (not counting

operation or fuel costs) from 17-22 cents/kWh when the nuclear facilities come on-line. Another

major business risk is nuclear’s history of construction delays. Delays would run costs higher, risking

funding shortfalls. The strain on cash flow is expected to degrade credit ratings.

Now what was that about Nuclear Energy being cheap...... and are we really considering these new generation of reactors that have yet to be built anywhere else?

Increased cost of nuclear does not negate the fact that at this point in time there is only a choice of:

- oil fired

- coal fired

- gas fired

- nuclear powered

If nuclear power plants price themselves out of the market, EGAT will revise their plan & build a coal fired power station or a gas fired power station - but one thing they will not be doing is building a solar power station, whether PV or CSP type.

[thunder30101]

How does france produce over 75% of their electricity from nuclear if it is so expensive to do ???? Gee could it be because in the usa we have clowns like mr severance (who work for people that will never accept anything except a move back to the stone age for the world) that will produce biased report after biased report telling us why something is not feasible. Take yucca moutain, how many years and multi millions of dollars have been spent fighting these clowns over building a safe repository to store the waste, not just from nuclear power generation but all nuclear research and medical wastes produced. But the greens would rather have over 100 seperate sites around the country with waste piling up just waiting for an accident or terrorist attacks. I too believe in conservation and enviromental awareness it is just i get so tired of people of blocking projects without any viable alternatives or solutions to the problem of energy this world faces. And if solar, wind, geothermal or whatever was actually able to meet the growing power needs of the world, trust me the power companies would be doing it today.

[PhilHarries]

A great story - but that is all its. Don't read it to the kiddies on TV it might scare them.

Dedicated to shooting peas up the noses of the dysfunctional malcontents of Thai visa.

Of course it's a story Timmy, it's what we call a scenario. Now Timmy that's a big word shall we break it down for you?

Scen (you can ignore the 'c' Timmy to make it easy for you) - ar (like you "are" a boy) - io (think of Old Macdonald ei-ei-o). Scenario is like a story Timmy but with some true parts, it is what people use to plan for what we do. Like one scenario of you crossing the road is that you don't look for traffic and get run over. That's why you hold mummy's hand Timmy.

Oh by the way Timmy don't walk around with that pea shooter stuck up your nose like that, you might trip over and get it stuck right up in your head.

You Rosies think that Thai politicians don't meddle in projects and affairs. Suvarnabhumi airport was ordered to open before it was finished by none other than your idol Thaksin who was losing face as it was his pet scam, dam_n I mean infrastructure project. So don't think a similar situation could not occur with a nuclear plant.

[Gerontion]

And the farce of Terminal 5 presumably means the British are incompetent oafs who can't be trusted to run a nuclear power station, either. Oh, hang on a second. They do? Windscale? What's that? A fire in the core of the reactor? In the 1950s? And between 1950 and 2000 there were another 20 serious accidents? And the Irish Sea is now the most irradiated sea in the world? Well I never.

Of course, British and American nuclear incompetence is largely caused by white people pulling the wrong levers or pushing the wrong buttons so it's just an unfortunate accident, nothing more. But when it's a <deleted> - that's the right term, isn't it? - the only logical explanation is that they're culturally incompetent. Nothing racist about that, is there. It's just the way things are.

[LooseCannon]

A great story - but that is all its. Don't read it to the kiddies on TV it might scare them.

Dedicated to shooting peas up the noses of the dysfunctional malcontents of Thai visa.

Of course it's a story Timmy, it's what we call a scenario. Now Timmy that's a big word shall we break it down for you?

Scen (you can ignore the 'c' Timmy to make it easy for you) - ar (like you "are" a boy) - io (think of Old Macdonald ei-ei-o). Scenario is like a story Timmy but with some true parts, it is what people use to plan for what we do. Like one scenario of you crossing the road is that you don't look for traffic and get run over. That's why you hold mummy's hand Timmy.

Oh by the way Timmy don't walk around with that pea shooter stuck up your nose like that, you might trip over and get it stuck right up in your head.

You Rosies think that Thai politicians don't meddle in projects and affairs. Suvarnabhumi airport was ordered to open before it was finished by none other than your idol Thaksin who was losing face as it was his pet scam, dam_n I mean infrastructure project. So don't think a similar situation could not occur with a nuclear plant.

It's hard to believe that your post was actually written by an adult.

[GuestHouse]

Between 1970 - 2009 - Thai International had 3 accidents that resulted in fatalities.

Predictably WRONG ...... AGAIN!

Points to note:

FIVE Fatal Accidents - quite a few non fatal accidents and at least one unreported fatal accident (Private flight in which members of staff of a certain family were killed).

The crash at Surat Thani is a tragic case of those culture issues and miss management - From the ensuing legal battle:

The accident killed more than 100 people, including the pilot, Flight Lieutenant Pinit Vechasilpa, whom THAI publicly blamed.

But documents later showed that the plane's mechanical condition and THAI's negligence in maintaining it were actually to blame.

You also need to understand the relationship between air accidents and number of flying hours, number of take-off/landings.

Comparing a raw count of Thai International's accidents (even if you manage to get the number right) with the mega sized airlines, reveals nothing but a complete lack of understanding of the most basic principles of risk analysis and safety management.

[GuestHouse]

Increased cost of nuclear does not negate the fact that at this point in time there is only a choice of:

- oil fired

- coal fired

- gas fired

- nuclear powered

If nuclear power plants price themselves out of the market, EGAT will revise their plan & build a coal fired power station or a gas fired power station - but one thing they will not be doing is building a solar power station, whether PV or CSP type.

WRONG AGAIN!

[LooseCannon]

Between 1970 - 2009 - Thai International had 3 accidents that resulted in fatalities.

Predictably WRONG ...... AGAIN!

Points to note:

FIVE Fatal Accidents - quite a few non fatal accidents and at least one unreported fatal accident (Private flight in which members of staff of a certain family were killed).

The crash at Surat Thani is a tragic case of those culture issues and miss management - From the ensuing legal battle:

The accident killed more than 100 people, including the pilot, Flight Lieutenant Pinit Vechasilpa, whom THAI publicly blamed.

But documents later showed that the plane's mechanical condition and THAI's negligence in maintaining it were actually to blame.

You also need to understand the relationship between air accidents and number of flying hours, number of take-off/landings.

Comparing a raw count of Thai International's accidents (even if you manage to get the number right) with the mega sized airlines, reveals nothing but a complete lack of understanding of the most basic principles of risk analysis and safety management.

As you can read I specifically said "Thai International had 3 accidents that resulted in fatalities."

"Thai Airways Company" in partnership with SAS formed "Thai Airways International".

In 1988 "Thai Airways Company" merged with "Thai Airways International" to form a single airline.

All 3 "Thai Airways International" accidents occurred after the merger with "Thai Airways".

Prior to 1988 merger "Thai Airways Company" had a total of 4 accidents that resulted in fatalities.

Your confusion is the result of some aviation websites incorrectly referring to "Thai Airways International" as "Thai Airways".

You make reference to the Surat Thani crash & link to an article that appeared in "The Nation" - but provide no details of the outcome of this court-case - but I have every confidence that if the verdict is not to your liking, you will dismiss it as being tainted by one of those wide ranging "Thai social mores".

I don't know Whether the charges of falsifying maintenance records are true or not, but a quick search reveals this sort of behavior is quite common amongst US airlines - Alaska Airlines, Gulfstream International Airlines, Air New Orleans, Texas National Air, Grand Canyon Airlines & the list goes on, all identified by US Federal Aviation Authority as falsifying maintenance & operations records.

"You also need to understand the relationship between air accidents and number of flying hours, number of take-off/landings." - I understand perfectly thank you, but you are either deliberately missing the point or are just too blinded by your personal prejudices to recognise the absurdity of your 'mai pen rai' argument.

Why does the United States- having the most advanced technology, having a highly skilled workforce of pilots & engineers, having a workforce not burdened with the 'mai pen rai' attitude, systemic corruption, the challenges of 'face' or any of the other negative influencing 'Thai social mores', - have such a high incidence of fatal aircraft accidents & such a high incidence of falsifying maintenance & operations records?

If 'mai pen rai', 'face', systemic corruption & cultural mores cause Thai accidents & alleged falsification of records - what is the cause of American accidents & falsification of records?

Mexicans?

But all this is merely a distraction from this condescending throw away ..

Nuclear Technology meets 'Mai Bpen Rai'.

Nuff said!

& then posting this rubbish trying to justify it ...

...

Some have objected to comments about "Mai Bpen Rai" but "Mai Bpen Rai" is a real Thai cultural issue that cannot be denied - It might perhaps better be understood as a catch all phrase for the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the.

...

You are desperately trying to defend a nonsensical & inane generalisation that is both insulting & derogatory to anybody with a modicum of intelligence.

The arrogance & self-styled superiority of the farang never fails to shine on this forum.

[LooseCannon]

Increased cost of nuclear does not negate the fact that at this point in time there is only a choice of:

- oil fired

- coal fired

- gas fired

- nuclear powered

If nuclear power plants price themselves out of the market, EGAT will revise their plan & build a coal fired power station or a gas fired power station - but one thing they will not be doing is building a solar power station, whether PV or CSP type.

WRONG AGAIN!

I have no problem admitting being wrong on this particular detail - in fact this confirms my views on the Thai people.

I have every confidence that this solar power plant will get built & operated successfully. It demonstrates clarity of vision & an 'out of the box' thinking by Thai entrepreneurs that is totally at odds with your ludicrous claims about Thais. Obviously, China Light & Power & Mitsubishi have no concerns about investing a considerable amount of money in a project involving Thais & Thailand.

Maybe they are unaware of the your 'mai pen rai' factor?

With your myopic view of the Thais you can't possibly expect this to be built & operated successfully. According to you 'mai pen rai', 'face', systemic corruption & the elusive 'Thai social mores' must prevent any chance of a successful outcome.

But as I have noted in the previous post this is all a smokescreen , a distraction from your infantile assertions regarding the abilities of the Thai people.

[GuestHouse]

So you've swiftly moved from denying the existence of solar energy plants "but one thing they will not be doing is building a solar power station, whether PV or CSP type".

To accepting the implementation of Solar Power as being a demonstration of " clarity of vision & an 'out of the box' thinking by Thai entrepreneurs that is totally at odds with your ludicrous claims about Thais"

We'll put aside the fact that the entrepreneurs here are China Light & Power & Mitsubishi and if my observations can be shown to be untrue then I will accept them being ludicrous - To remind you, Mai Bpen Rai, Corruption, the persecution (and murder) of environmental/social activists.

Your detour into the air industry, has demonstrated that you need to do some reading up on accident rates, flying hours and risk - and how they are related.

And you still haven't addressed the Map Tha Phut example - They exhibit all of the problems and reasons why Thailand should not adopt a Nuclear Energy Program.

Long term environmental problems swept under the carpet. Regulation that has for decades gone unenforced, Corruption right through the regulation of these industries and now the clamor for an 'executive fix' that gets business going at the expense of the local environment/communities, because money is being lost.

How do you explain 20 years of mismanaging the regulation of industries in the Map Tha Phut area, the decades long reports of environmental damage that has been allowed to occur and occur again? And how do you square that with claims that the Nuclear Industry would be well regulated and safe?

To be so it would be in direct contradiction with other dangerous process industry in Thailand - On what basis can you claim things would be different - because they would have to be very different for Nuclear Power Generation to be safe.

[LooseCannon]

You seem to have forgotten this...

Nuclear Technology meets 'Mai Bpen Rai'.

Nuff said!

& then posting this rubbish trying to justify it ...

...

Some have objected to comments about "Mai Bpen Rai" but "Mai Bpen Rai" is a real Thai cultural issue that cannot be denied - It might perhaps better be understood as a catch all phrase for the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the.

...

You are desperately trying to defend a nonsensical & inane generalisation that is both insulting & derogatory to anybody with a modicum of intelligence.

The arrogance & self-styled superiority of the farang never fails to shine on this forum.

[GuestHouse]

Quit slipping about like a wet bar of soap and address the point about Map Tha Phut Industrial Area.

Decades long environmental accidents, covered up, denied and ignored, offering us a very good example of the failings of Thai operation, maintenance and governance of toxic industries.

Over to you Loosecannon - The long term Environmental Issues at Map Tha Phut........ The floor is yours.

[LooseCannon]

So you've swiftly moved from denying the existence of solar energy plants "but one thing they will not be doing is building a solar power station, whether PV or CSP type".

To accepting the implementation of Solar Power as being a demonstration of " clarity of vision & an 'out of the box' thinking by Thai entrepreneurs that is totally at odds with your ludicrous claims about Thais"

We'll put aside the fact that the entrepreneurs here are China Light & Power & Mitsubishi and if my observations can be shown to be untrue then I will accept them being ludicrous - To remind you, Mai Bpen Rai, Corruption, the persecution (and murder) of environmental/social activists.

Your detour into the air industry, has demonstrated that you need to do some reading up on accident rates, flying hours and risk - and how they are related.

And you still haven't addressed the Map Tha Phut example - They exhibit all of the problems and reasons why Thailand should not adopt a Nuclear Energy Program.

Long term environmental problems swept under the carpet. Regulation that has for decades gone unenforced, Corruption right through the regulation of these industries and now the clamor for an 'executive fix' that gets business going at the expense of the local environment/communities, because money is being lost.

How do you explain 20 years of mismanaging the regulation of industries in the Map Tha Phut area, the decades long reports of environmental damage that has been allowed to occur and occur again? And how do you square that with claims that the Nuclear Industry would be well regulated and safe?

To be so it would be in direct contradiction with other dangerous process industry in Thailand - On what basis can you claim things would be different - because they would have to be very different for Nuclear Power Generation to be safe.

"We'll put aside the fact that the entrepreneurs here are China Light & Power & Mitsubishi and if my observations can be shown to be untrue then I will accept them being ludicrous"

Yes - ludicrous. Maybe you should actually read the article you have linked too.

"Your detour into the air industry, has demonstrated that you need to do some reading up on accident rates, flying hours and risk - and how they are related." - I understand perfectly thank you, but you are either deliberately missing the point or are just too blinded by your personal prejudices to recognise the absurdity of your 'mai pen rai' argument. At least if you have the misfortune to ever fly Alaska Airlines, Gulfstream International Airlines, Air New Orleans, Texas National Air, Grand Canyon Airlines, you will be comfortable in the knowledge that it highly unlikely that any Thai with a 'mai pen rai' attitude is at the controls or doctored the maintenance records.

You seem to have forgotten this...

Nuclear Technology meets 'Mai Bpen Rai'.

Nuff said!

& then posting this rubbish trying to justify it ...

...

Some have objected to comments about "Mai Bpen Rai" but "Mai Bpen Rai" is a real Thai cultural issue that cannot be denied - It might perhaps better be understood as a catch all phrase for the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the.

...

You are desperately trying to defend a nonsensical & inane generalisation that is both insulting & derogatory to anybody with a modicum of intelligence.

The arrogance & self-styled superiority of the farang never fails to shine on this forum.

[LooseCannon]

......

And you still haven't addressed the Map Tha Phut example - They exhibit all of the problems and reasons why Thailand should not adopt a Nuclear Energy Program.

Long term environmental problems swept under the carpet. Regulation that has for decades gone unenforced, Corruption right through the regulation of these industries and now the clamor for an 'executive fix' that gets business going at the expense of the local environment/communities, because money is being lost.

How do you explain 20 years of mismanaging the regulation of industries in the Map Tha Phut area, the decades long reports of environmental damage that has been allowed to occur and occur again? And how do you square that with claims that the Nuclear Industry would be well regulated and safe?

To be so it would be in direct contradiction with other dangerous process industry in Thailand - On what basis can you claim things would be different - because they would have to be very different for Nuclear Power Generation to be safe.

Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior are not solely limited to Thais, & are found (believe it or not) in all nationalities, races & cultures (even the one you belong too). The behavior & actions of some individual(s) or corporation(s) does not mean all others will act in the same way.

From the following very short list of past & ongoing environmental disasters that have occurred in the US & using your criteria for assessing national/racial/cultural competency for performing complex tasks, the only possible conclusion is that Americans should not be allowed to run a kindergarten, let alone airlines, chemical factories, mining companies or power stations (nuclear or otherwise). An absurd conclusion that you are quite happy to make with respect to the Thais.

All of these involve various levels of greed, incompetence, manipulation of the judicial system & governmental corruption/incompetence/ disinterest....

Mississippi Dead Zone - dirtiest coastal ecosystem in the world, continues to grow with runoff from farms. Federal & state governments lack the political will to solve this problem.

Cuyahoga River - at one time the most polluted river in the US - this river caught fire 13+ between 1868 - 1969. Read about this classic.

Exxon Valdez - drunk captain (full of lao khao?) apart from the incidence itself, Exxon behavior in the aftermath (20 years later) with court appeals & deluging the courts with paperwork to stymie the compensation.

Pacific Gas & Electric Company - remember Erin Brockovich? Took 30 years before before the lawsuit was finally settled.

Pittson Coal Co.(Logan County West Virginia) - 1972 coal slurry dam breaks - 125 killed. Federal mine inspectors had certified it as 'satisfactory' just four days before the incident. The investigation & resulting commission of inquiry was setup to deliberately mitigate the culpability of the coal industry & government officials.

Dow Chemical (Saginaw, Michigan) - dumping dioxin laden waste into rivers that stretch for 50 miles into Saginaw Bay & Lake Huron for 50+ years. Clean up has been delayed by decades of legal wrangling by Dow, who have insisted that they are not responsible. Mary Gade (regional head of EPA in Region 5) forced out of her position by the Bush administration due to her aggressive action against Dow Chemicals.

Kerr-McGee Corp. (Cimarron Fuel Fabrication Plant) - remember Karen Silkwood? Ended up dead on the side of a road.

Monsanto - Anniston, Alabama - for nearly 40 years this company dumped unfiltered & untreated PCB (polychlorinated biphenyls) into streams & landfill around the town of Anniston. Read about the subsequent cover up by the company & Alabama state government officials.

"Wasting our Waters: Toxic Industrial Pollution and the Unfulfilled Promise of the Clean Water Act" (Environment Illinois Research & Education Center 2009) - you should read this report to acquaint yourself about the ongoing discharge of toxic chemicals into US waterways.

3 Mile Island - poor quality assurance & maintenance, poor training, poor management, complacency. The faulty valve had a documented history of failure & the exact same sequence of events had occurred at another plant.

And the list goes on & on......

"Decades long environmental accidents, covered up, denied and ignored, offering us a very good example of the failings of Thai American operation, maintenance and governance of toxic industries."

What we have here is corporate greed & willful disregard of the environment, manipulation of the legal system, both state & federal government interference, all carried out by US corporations, with US citizens as the corporate office holders, with a US style corporate culture, all in USA & subject to the laws of the USA. A sad indictment of corporate America but in no way prevents or renders other Americans incapable of successfully performing complex tasks.

Probably better not to start cataloging the activities of US corporations in third world countries but special mention should be made of Union Carbide (now owned by Dow Chemicals) & the tragedy at Bhopal - no justice for the people of Bhopal since 1984.Dow Chemicals deny all legal liability. The US govt (through the Dept of Homeland Security) has now stepped in to fund studies of the effects of this industrial catastrophe after becoming aware of threat of terrorist attack.The US government didn't give a fuc_k until they realised that this tragedy was a spawning ground for terrorists - talk about a self-serving pack of cun_ts & you consider the Thais to be incapable of running airlines, performing complex surgery & running a nuclear power plant.

You seem to have forgotten this...

Nuclear Technology meets 'Mai Bpen Rai'.

Nuff said!

& then posting this rubbish trying to justify it ...

...

Some have objected to comments about "Mai Bpen Rai" but "Mai Bpen Rai" is a real Thai cultural issue that cannot be denied - It might perhaps better be understood as a catch all phrase for the systematic corruption that pervades Thai society, and the inability to deal with problems where to do so challenges 'Face' or the wide range of Thai social mores that get in the way of directly addressing issues rather than hiding the.

...

You are desperately trying to defend a nonsensical & inane generalisation that is both insulting & derogatory to anybody with a modicum of intelligence.

The arrogance & self-styled superiority of the farang never fails to shine on this forum.

[GuestHouse]

OK so you've given us a list of problems elsewhere and while and interesting attempt at dodging the Map Tha Phut issue it still is a dodge.

Nobody disputes Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior are not solely limited to Thais - but they are evident in Thai culture in an abundance.

To put a scale on this - You've listed a dozen US based industrial accidents (all of which resulted in the corporations concerned being prosecuted in the US Courts and fined huge sums of money + prison sentences) - A tally of twelve cases across the whole of the US, all prosecuted and most resulting in changes to legislation and regulation of the industries concerned.

Map Tha Phut - One single industrial area where decades of "Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" has led to case after case of pollution and environmental damage (not to mention industrial accidents with loss of life) and yet nothing has been done about it.

Even the recent court order placing projects on hold has been overridden.

Yes, "Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" in the US that gets reported, prosecuted and results in changes of law and regulation.

"Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" in Thailand and nothing happens.

Yes - Mai Bpen Rai rules at Map Tha Phut

[GuestHouse]

Your reference to Bhopal is interesting, because earlier in this thread you stated that the Nuclear Technology owners (Westinghouse etc) would oversee the implementation of Nuclear Technology in Thailand (This being an assurance of its safe implementation).

And now you have provided us with the best example of foreign technology owners not being able to control the safety of their technology in the developing world.

So nuclear technology can be transferred safely to Thailand by responsible technology owners but chemical processes cannot be transferred to India because of ... Perhaps ..." Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior".

You can't have both sides of that argument so tell us which you want?

---

Incidentally, Union Carbide did take responsibility settling almost $500 million in an agreement with the Indian Government as a final settlement of UC's civil and criminal liability.

The unresolved issue is what happened to the money, it was payed to the Indian Government but not paid out to the victims.

But I digress.

[LooseCannon]

To put a scale on this - You've listed a dozen US based industrial accidents (all of which resulted in the corporations concerned being prosecuted in the US Courts and fined huge sums of money + prison sentences) - A tally of twelve cases across the whole of the US, all prosecuted and most resulting in changes to legislation and regulation of the industries concerned.

As I pointed out some have been resolved (after many decades) & others are ongoing with no results, but don't let the facts get in the way of your attempt to whitewash American corporate guilt & imply some sort of cultural, moral & ethical superiority of the 'American way', & then go on to condemn a whole country by citing the case of Map Tha Phut.

Map Tha Phut - One single industrial area where decades of "Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" has led to case after case of pollution and environmental damage (not to mention industrial accidents with loss of life) and yet nothing has been done about it.

Even the recent court order placing projects on hold has been overridden.

Once again don't let the facts get in the way of your attempt to paint Thailand in as poor a light as you possibly can. You know perfectly well (you do don't you?) that something is being done about it & what the result of the recent Admin Court decision was - no need to make it something that it is not. Slow & ponderous & not totally transparent just like the US. Judicial manipulation, court cases, litigation, lobbying by pressure groups (corporate, grass-roots & others), back room deals by politicians & all sorts of political machinations - par for the course & exactly the same tactics used by all sides in the cases that occurred in the US & involved US corporations.

........

You can't have both sides of that argument so tell us which you want?

As you well know my argument is that Thais are no less capable of performing complex tasks (such as flying airplanes, running airlines, performing major surgery, building & operating PV solar power stations & nuclear power stations) than any other race/culture. You on the other hand consider Thais to be incapable of performing these tasks with any competence due to a 'mai pen rai' attitude that is not borne out by the facts, but rather due to your ingrained prejudices & myopic view of Thailand.

"...

Incidentally, Union Carbide did take responsibility settling almost $500 million in an agreement with the Indian Government as a final settlement of UC's civil and criminal liability..." - Once again a disingenuous statement that only distorts the true reality - far from over (unless you get your information from a Union Carbide website).

Nobody disputes Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior are not solely limited to Thais - but they are evident in Thai culture in an abundance.

This is the statement that sums you up perfectly, beautifully exposing your overinflated sense of cultural & racial superiority.

Another sad 'white man' who's only way to feel better about himself is to believe that his "greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" is so much better than that of the devious & untrustworthy Thai.

[Crushdepth]

In conclusion, I think Thailand should have nuclear power plants because nuclear power plants are clean energy and the resources for them are support to make a lot of energies. How do you think?

I think you need to familiarise yourself with local attitudes to safety, maintenance and accuracy.

[GuestHouse]

As I pointed out some have been resolved (after many decades) & others are ongoing with no results, but don't let the facts get in the way of your attempt to whitewash American corporate guilt & imply some sort of cultural, moral & ethical superiority of the 'American way', & then go on to condemn a whole country by citing the case of Map Tha Phut.

You missed the point again! (perhaps deliberately). You trawl through all US Industrial Accidents and reference 12 which were widely publicized by a Free Press, prosecuted by the law, penalties (including prison sentences) handed out to those found guilty and the laws/regulations amended to put these errant industries/individuals under tighter control.

Meanwhile at Map Tha Phut decades long environmental incidents have gone and continue to go on without investigation, no prosecutions, no penalties, no improvement, not nothing - Mai Bpen Rai. And not tarring the whole nation with the ills of Map Tha Phut but as I clearly stated earlier, drawing a comparison between the failure to regulate and manage dangerous industries at Map Tha Phut and your own rosy picture of how safe Nuclear Energy would be.

Once again don't let the facts get in the way of your attempt to paint Thailand in as poor a light as you possibly can. You know perfectly well (you do don't you?) that something is being done about it & what the result of the recent Admin Court decision was - no need to make it something that it is not

It seems you are totally unaware of what the Administrative Court Ruling was about: I'll give you a clue. It was not about addressing the past and on going environmental accidents at Map Tha Phut. But it did address an issue regarding 'No permit to proceed, but Mai Bpen Rai, let's proceed anyway'.

As you well know my argument is that Thais are no less capable of performing complex tasks (such as flying airplanes, running airlines, performing major surgery, building & operating PV solar power stations & nuclear power stations) than any other race/culture. You on the other hand consider Thais to be incapable of performing these tasks with any competence due to a 'mai pen rai' attitude that is not borne out by the facts, but rather due to your ingrained prejudices & myopic view of Thailand.

You do this deliberately don't you. My argument does not question the ability of Thais (as in any individual) but that there are cultural, historical, legislative, political, economic and social problems in Thai society that lead directly to unsafe management of anything from Transport to Chemical Plants - Mai Bpen Rai is one such issue.

Are you denying that Cultural, Historical, Legislative, Political, Ecconomic and Social Problems have an impact on Safety Management?

Edited January 5, 2010 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Nobody disputes Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior are not solely limited to Thais - but they are evident in Thai culture in an abundance.

This is the statement that sums you up perfectly, beautifully exposing your overinflated sense of cultural & racial superiority.

The term "Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" was your own, are you really saying these things are not abundant in Thai society?

If so how do you account for the daily accounts of "Corporate & individual greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" in the Thai Press.

Another sad 'white man' who's only way to feel better about himself is to believe that his "greed, incompetence, unethical & morally repugnant behavior" is so much better than that of the devious & untrustworthy Thai.

Ah the Argumentum ad hominem - when all else fails eh?!

You need to develop this idea of yours that a nation's culture does not impact the way that a society manages Industrial Safety. The way people act, think, behave, respond to pressures, commands, share information, give instructions, take personal responsibility are all issues impacting Safety Management and they are all matters directly impacted by Culture and Social Norms.

Edited January 5, 2010 by GuestHouse