How To Pronounce "klub" Or "krub?"

[sbaker8688]

Hello, I speak very little Thai, but always try to pick it up whenever and wherever I can.

Nobody has been able to tell me how to pronounce what I see written as "klub" or "krub" - as in "saa wa dee KLUB." I always pronounce it like "club." As in "I'm going out to a night CLUB." Recently, a swedish tourist "corrected" me and told me it was pronounced like "cub.'" As in "I saw a bear CUB in the woods."

Just how the hel1 is it pronounced? And if it is pronounced "cub," then why on earth is it spelled either "klub" or "krub?"

Of course, whenever I have ever asked a thai person "do I say cub or club or crub?" They just say "yes." Which is no help at all.

Thanks.

[gburns57au]

over to the experts.....

[Richard W]

Hello, I speak very little Thai, but always try to pick it up whenever and wherever I can.

Nobody has been able to tell me how to pronounce what I see written as "klub" or "krub" - as in "saa wa dee KLUB."  I always pronounce it like "club."  As in "I'm going out to a night CLUB."  Recently, a swedish tourist "corrected" me and told me it was pronounced like "cub.'"  As in "I  saw a bear CUB in the woods."

Just how the hel1 is it pronounced?  And if it is pronounced "cub," then why on earth is it spelled either "klub" or "krub?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ครับ

To get the minor points over with first, Thai has no distinction between final /b/ and final /p/. Secondly, the usual rule is to show the aspiration when there is 3-way contrast between voiceless unaspirated, voiceless aspirated and voiced consonants, as is adopted in the Royal Thai General Transliteration Scheme. That said, I will proceed with the nearest we have to a forum standard.

The 'correct' pronunciation, shown in the dictionaries, Thai and foreign, is [H]khrap - note that the /a/, in closed syllables, is pronunced pretty much as in English 'club' - sometimes a little flatter.

However, Thai has a tendency to simplify clusters, e.g. from /khr/ to /kh/. In the northern and northeastern dialects, the simplification always occur. (The dialect simplifications are not always as simple as this.) Most standard Thai speakers have a tendency to simplify the clusters when talking excitedly, e.g. about food. /khw/ is fairly resistant to simplification, but it can get reduced to /f/ in some Bangkok speech - not to be emulated. (I've heard this one transferred to English by a Thai speaker.)

Secondly, the /r/ sound has vanished from the northern and northeastern dialects (it became /h/, and [H]hak 'love' seems to be a dialect form of [H]rak that has been accepted by the standard language.) Speakers of these dialects generally use the /l/ sound when speaking (sub)standard Thai, and the habit is quite widespread generally in Bangkok.

In Thailand, I can only remember my wife, who is a northerner, using /l/ when speaking Thai in Thailand, but she had been taught how to say /r/ at school and had no problem with my name. I presume she felt it would be putting on airs to use it when speaking Central Thai.

Therefore, depending on the level of formality and the education and background of your speaker, expect to hear [H]khrap, [H]khlap or [H]khap.

Doubtless someone will say that Europeans are expected to say [H]khrap all the time, but I feel out of place using clusters with /r/ when everyone else is using /l/ for /r/ generally and I am the only one pronouncing clusters.

There's yet another variant, [H]khaap. (I could be wrong about the tone.) As I first heard it used by a university professor friend (of Isaan origin) to his Central Thai driver when the driver baulked at the schedule, I've always had the suspicion that it means, 'I'm being polite, but I'd really like to be rude to you'. I may be wrong about this.

Now, could someone please enlighten me on the status of clusters and /r/ in the south and in the countryside of Central Thailand.

Edited April 21, 2005 by Richard W

[Jack Jones]

I pronunce it 'Kap' and have had no problems.

[meadish_sweetball]

Hello, I speak very little Thai, but always try to pick it up whenever and wherever I can.

Nobody has been able to tell me how to pronounce what I see written as "klub" or "krub" - as in "saa wa dee KLUB."  I always pronounce it like "club."  As in "I'm going out to a night CLUB."  Recently, a swedish tourist "corrected" me and told me it was pronounced like "cub.'"  As in "I  saw a bear CUB in the woods."

Just how the hel1 is it pronounced?  And if it is pronounced "cub," then why on earth is it spelled either "klub" or "krub?"

ครับ

To get the minor points over with first, Thai has no distinction between final /b/ and final /p/. Secondly, the usual rule is to show the aspiration when there is 3-way contrast between voiceless unaspirated, voiceless aspirated and voiced consonants, as is adopted in the Royal Thai General Transliteration Scheme. That said, I will proceed with the nearest we have to a forum standard.

The 'correct' pronunciation, shown in the dictionaries, Thai and foreign, is [H]khrap - note that the /a/, in closed syllables, is pronunced pretty much as in English 'club' - sometimes a little flatter.

However, Thai has a tendency to simplify clusters, e.g. from /khr/ to /kh/. In the northern and northeastern dialects, the simplification always occur. (The dialect simplifications are not always as simple as this.) Most standard Thai speakers have a tendency to simplify the clusters when talking excitedly, e.g. about food. /khw/ is fairly resistant to simplification, but it can get reduced to /f/ in some Bangkok speech - not to be emulated. (I've heard this one transferred to English by a Thai speaker.)

Secondly, the /r/ sound has vanished from the northern and northeastern dialects (it became /h/, and [H]hak 'love' seems to be a dialect form of [H]rak that has been accepted by the standard language.) Speakers of these dialects generally use the /l/ sound when speaking (sub)standard Thai, and the habit is quite widespread generally in Bangkok.

In Thailand, I can only remember my wife, who is a northerner, using /l/ when speaking Thai in Thailand, but she had been taught how to say /r/ at school and had no problem with my name. I presume she felt it would be putting on airs to use it when speaking Central Thai.

Therefore, depending on the level of formality and the education and background of your speaker, expect to hear [H]khrap, [H]khlap or [H]khap.

Doubtless someone will say that Europeans are expected to say [H]khrap all the time, but I feel out of place using clusters with /r/ when everyone else is using /l/ for /r/ generally and I am the only one pronouncing clusters.

There's yet another variant, [H]khaap. (I could be wrong about the tone.) As I first heard it used by a university professor friend (of Isaan origin) to his Central Thai driver when the driver baulked at the schedule, I've always had the suspicion that it means, 'I'm being polite, but I'd really like to be rude to you'. I may be wrong about this.

Now, could someone please enlighten me on the status of clusters and /r/ in the south and in the countryside of Central Thailand.

[H]khap or [H]khrap . The former is for informal conversation, the latter is for elaborate pronunciation and formal occasions, and is also the one that most closely follows the standard spelling of the word.

Note that the Thai 'r' sound is more like the Scottish one than the American variant. Also, the end consonant 'b' or 'p' depending on your transcription style should not be "spit out" but the tongue stay where the sound starts.

I never hear "khl" in this word, but it may be because I am not expecting it.

[Rinrada]

I pronunce it 'Kap' and have had no problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to say "kap" but most common usage I seem to hear....trying not to be crude......but like the stuff wot sticks to the soles of your shoes and with ref to doggies...

[RDN]

I pronunce it 'Kap' and have had no problems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tend to say "kap" but most common usage I seem to hear....trying not to be crude......but like the stuff wot sticks to the soles of your shoes and with ref to doggies...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now why on earth would it be pronounced "doggie-doos"?

[bkkmadness]

"Sawadee doggie doos"

I'll be using that round the bars now.

[Rinrada]

I am having a early night

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I am having a early night

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with you Rin

[Neeranam]

Note that the Thai 'r' sound is more like the Scottish one than the American variant.

What is the Scottish 'r'? Please explain.

I use khap(High tone), and khrap(high) sometimes to be sarcastic.

[HedKeeQuai]

Wadee kap of coffee

[bangkokian]

Make life easy and go for "crap" with a Scottish "r." I am no linguist, but believe the Scottish "r" is rounder and shorter. Play around with the "r" to get different nuances. Elongate the "r" to sound sarcastic or endearing--the body language and context will help differentiate the two scanarios.

[

[aletta]

Kap does just fine anywhere.

[Jack Jones]

...just to add, I've used Krap before pronouncing the 'r' and found that this is almost too formal. I got some strange looks when I started using this, so reverted back to Kap. I would be inclined to roll the 'r' if I was in court though.

Edited April 22, 2005 by RDN

[meadish_sweetball]

Note that the Thai 'r' sound is more like the Scottish one than the American variant.

What is the Scottish 'r'? Please explain.

I use khap(High tone), and khrap(high) sometimes to be sarcastic.

The Scottish "r", like the Italian or Spanish one, trills off the edge of the hard palate (the tip of your tongue bounces up and down repeatedly), whereas the American "r" typically is a constant sound where the tip of the tongue does not bounce but stays in the same place.

I hope it makes sense.

[sbaker8688]

Okay, hate to be dense, but I'm still confused with all this "khraap" crap (pardon the pun, heh). The problem with the above is that sometimes I'm expected to interpret the r as an actual r, and other times I'm expected to interpret it as an l.

Let's make things easy, please. Do I stick a bloody "L" sound in there, as in an AMERICAN ENGLISH L (not an asian "r"), or not?

I think it would be best if you spelled the word that I'm supposed to say as an english word, not as some dictionary word like "khraap" which is totally confusing. So, should I say "club" (going to a club), "crap" (going to take a crap), or some other word?

Thanks.

[Jack Jones]

Okay, hate to be dense, but I'm still confused with all this "khraap" crap (pardon the pun, heh). The problem with the above is that sometimes I'm expected to interpret the r as an actual r, and other times I'm expected to interpret it as an l.

Let's make things easy, please. Do I stick a bloody "L" sound in there, as in an AMERICAN ENGLISH L (not an asian "r"), or not?

I think it would be best if you spelled the word that I'm supposed to say as an english word, not as some dictionary word like "khraap" which is totally confusing. So, should I say "club" (going to a club), "crap" (going to take a crap), or some other word?

Thanks.

In English, pronounce it cap with a high tone.

[Dara]

Okay, hate to be dense, but I'm still confused with all this "khraap" crap (pardon the pun, heh). The problem with the above is that sometimes I'm expected to interpret the r as an actual r, and other times I'm expected to interpret it as an l.

Let's make things easy, please. Do I stick a bloody "L" sound in there, as in an AMERICAN ENGLISH L (not an asian "r"), or not?

I think it would be best if you spelled the word that I'm supposed to say as an english word, not as some dictionary word like "khraap" which is totally confusing. So, should I say "club" (going to a club), "crap" (going to take a crap), or some other word?

Thanks.

In English, pronounce it cap with a high tone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As foreign speakers of the language, it always sounds better to pronounce words properly, instead of using the corrupt pronunciations that locals do. The thing is the impression that you make when speaking the language - if you don't do it properly to begin with, people who don't know you well could surmise that you are not well educated. In the "khrub" case, use the formal pronunciation as the norm. With those close to you, then use anything else you want, including the more intimate "jah" if you want to sound especially sweet to someone....

[meadish_sweetball]

Okay, hate to be dense, but I'm still confused with all this "khraap" crap (pardon the pun, heh).  The problem with the above is that sometimes I'm expected to interpret the r as an actual r, and other times I'm expected to interpret it as an l.

Let's make things easy, please.  Do I stick a bloody "L" sound in there, as in an AMERICAN ENGLISH L (not an asian "r"), or not?

I think it would be best if you spelled the word that I'm supposed to say as an english word, not as some dictionary word like "khraap" which is totally confusing.  So, should I say "club" (going to a club), "crap" (going to take a crap), or some other word?

Thanks.

No, don't stick an American English L in there. If you cannot do a trilled R, stick to "cub" (as in "bear cub", pronounced as in Standard British English with a short "u" sound).

As for the transcription system we use, it is based on consistency unlike the English spelling system. In other words, when it says "khrap" you know that the "kh" ALWAYS stands for the same sound, the "a" stands for a short vowel sound such as the "a" in the International phonetic alphabet etc.

This way you eliminate irregularities like "nut" and "bull" ("u" represents two totally different sounds).

Of course, if you learn the sound values of the Thai alphabet you will not have to worry about transcription systems.

[Rinrada]

The thing is the impression that you make when speaking the language - if you don't do it properly to begin with, people who don't know you well could surmise that you are not well educated.

In the "khrub" case, use the formal pronunciation as the norm.

With those close to you, then use anything else you want, including the more intimate "jah" if you want to sound especially sweet to someone....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just spoken to "er" indoors about "jah"and she says that she would never use that expression.

To be polite and in all circumstances it would be more formal and correct to maintain your acknowledgements and understanding with "Crap" and "Ka".

The informal "jah" is and would be considered "low class"

[meadish_sweetball]

The thing is the impression that you make when speaking the language - if you don't do it properly to begin with, people who don't know you well could surmise that you are not well educated. 

In the "khrub" case, use the formal pronunciation as the norm. 

With those close to you, then use anything else you want, including the more intimate "jah" if you want to sound especially sweet to someone....

Just spoken to "er" indoors about "jah"and she says that she would never use that expression.

To be polite and in all circumstances it would be more formal and correct to maintain your acknowledgements and understanding with "Crap" and "Ka".

The informal "jah" is and would be considered "low class"

Using [F]jaa and [H]jaa with your loved one, especially if you are female, has never struck me as low class. Could it be your wife means it should not be used with people you are not intimate with?

Edited April 23, 2005 by meadish_sweetball

[Dara]

Just spoken to "er" indoors about "jah"and she says that  she would never use that expression.

To be polite and in all circumstances it would be more formal and correct to maintain your acknowledgements and understanding with "Crap" and "Ka".

The informal "jah" is and would be considered "low class"  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Something must have been lost here in the translation for your significant other to say that "jah" is low class. In Thai, the series of these words are "จ้ะ จ๊ะ จ๋า" and they are commonly used among closed friends and family. When you first get to know someone formally, you'll use "khrub" (male) or "kha"(female). If that person is a lady friend with whom you are getting initimate, then the "jah" series can be used. Women tend to use it among close friends and with serving folks when they want to soften their tones. Men can use it with their loved ones and family. Nothing low class about using the series....

Edited April 23, 2005 by Dara

[RamdomChances]

Just my simplistic reply of Khap, Khrap

Say-"Cap" as in the thing you wear on you head, everyone else does!!

Say-"Crap" as in slang for sh1t if you want to impress that you can pronounce your r's

Nothing at all low class with Jaa

[Rinrada]

Just had another chat about the class levels on some of the Thai words with respect to/and taking into account the individual acknowledgements and respondants.

As said I would be the last person to admit to not being fully in touch with the standards offered within the supposed level of relationship with the word "jah" as compared to or with being/on the same level of lets say the appreciation factor like "krub" or "Ka"or even Krub Pom"

As a follow up and in a similar vein how many ..mostly guys salute their wifes position (o dear) with the word "mia" (village person) or even worse "Mia -Noi".

In the breakdown of the order of things and being particular sensitive to the Thai standing in and on the avoindance of ....another good one.. "breaking face" rather than as we tend to suggest with he traditional "loss of face"...how do you address "er"indoors personally to others.

I supposse depending on who/where you are and at what level etc.."Mahasre" or "Pha-chaya"could be considered but suggest you dont where as some may consider " Khun Yin" or indeed the slightly more formal "Khun Pu Yin"more appro.

Me I tend to stick to the straightforward "pun-raya"which I also find has got me out of a number of tedious situations and "er"indoors quite appreciates the salutation.

And I thought the English class systen was complicated.........glad i aint

[Dara]

Just had another chat about the class levels on some of the Thai words with  respect to/and taking into account the individual acknowledgements and respondants.

In the breakdown of the order of things and being particular sensitive to the Thai standing in and on the avoindance of ....another good one.. "breaking face" rather than as we tend to suggest with he traditional "loss of face"...how do you address "er"indoors  personally to others.

I supposse depending on who/where you are and at what level etc.."Mahasre" or "Pha-chaya"could be considered but suggest you dont where as some may consider " Khun Yin" or indeed the slightly more formal "Khun Pu Yin"more appro.

Me I tend to stick to the straightforward "pun-raya"which I also find has got me out of a number of tedious situations and "er"indoors quite appreciates the salutation.

And I thought the English class systen was complicated.........glad i aint

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

K'Rin - I am with you on the "punraya" as a chosen word. Many Thai still do it that way, though some of them would pronounce it "punya" (which is not quite correct and I don't recommend it for foreign speakers) I admit that I don't know much about the Thai dialects, but in Bkk since the mid 1960's, when referring to one's wife, some men have been using the word "fan phom" instead - I do not like it - I prefer "ti-ban" instead - but this is just personal.

To refer to your significant other, you can use "khun er" at home or to those who know her personally or when you introduce her to people; "khun poo ying" at public places to show that you have respect for her and expect her to be treated as a lady. Never refer to her as "khun ying" unless she's formally titled or was born into the royaly rank of "mom rachawong" - "khun ying" is reserved specifically for those ladies.

I heard many people calling their husband/wife informally "poh"/"maeh" when they have children as well...

[gburns57au]

I have always found "mia " to be acceptable....but if I was talking to someone from the government for instance then I would use Panraya....or palaya (another way it is pronounced)

[RamdomChances]

I have always found "mia " to be acceptable....but if I was talking to someone from the government for instance then I would use Panraya....or palaya (another way it is pronounced)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too

[Johpa]

Secondly, the /r/ sound has vanished from the northern and northeastern dialects (it became /h/, and [H]hak 'love' seems to be a dialect form of [H]rak that has been accepted by the standard language.)  Speakers of these dialects generally use the /l/ sound when speaking (sub)standard Thai, and the habit is quite widespread generally in Bangkok.

The /r/ sound has become a minor phonetic variant by speakers of Lao/Isaan and Kham Muang, Tai languages spoken north of the Thai Central Plains where people speak Central Thai or Bangkok Thai. Speakers of these Northern Tai languages often use an /l/ or an /h/ instead if an /r/ when speaking Central Thai. As people in Bangkok consider themselves to be superior to other residents of the Kingdom, they often perceive these minor lingustic variations (actually allophones) as being "substandard" and thus reinforcing their feelings of racial superiority.

As for the polite affirmative particle (masculine) you can either prononce it formally as "crop" (as in apples and oranges) or more informally as "cop" as in policeman in the US.

Personally, if I am in a rare situation where the formal appears to be the proper usage I always up the ante to "khraphom."