Taking Wife And Children To Uk

[parryhandy]

My situation

Married in Thailand with no job or income at present living off savings,now approximately 11000 pounds.

Wife has 3 daughters A B C.

Eldest daughter A is 17 and has a Thai father and will be staying in Thailand anyway.

Daughter B is mine and has Uk passport and birth certificate.

Daughter C I have treated as my own and has no father on the birth certificate because he ran away and never came back before she was born.(Dutch)

I wish to return to the UK and take my family with me. I have no job at present but have savings as stated above and no accommodation of my own but will have the support/help of retired relatives who live alone in a 4 bedroomed house.

What is my best course of action ?

[7by7]

Daughter A wont need a visa, obviously, as she is not coming. Please be aware that once she is 18 she will not be able to apply for settlement in the UK as a child joining her parent(s).

Daughter B wont need a visa as she is a British citizen and has a British passport.

Daughter C will need a visa, and she should apply at the same time as her mother. I'm afraid that she will have to make a separate application and pay the same fee.

As you do not presently have a job in the UK you will need to show that you have sufficient funds to support yourselves until you find work. You should also show what your prospects are for finding work. Remember that, as she will be entering as a spouse, your wife can work as well.

Accommodation with a friend or relative is acceptable. You will need to show that there is at least one room for the exclusive use of you and your wife and another for your daughters (as they are both the same sex, sharing a room wont be a problem). Whoever is offering the accommodation should provide evidence that they are able to do so; proof of ownership if they own or a landlord's permission letter if they rent.

You may find the following helpful:-

Maintenance and accommodation

Settlement; Spouses

Settlement; Children

For where and how to apply, fees etc. see Official UK visa application website in Thailand. Your wife will need a TB certificate, and so will any child applying who is 11 or older.

[torrenova]

Whilst there are no figures given for what is and what is not considered a minimum amount of money to support yourself and your family, the following points to the minimum level as being the amount of income support and associated government assistance that a UK family would receive.

MAA4 Maintenance: General requirements

There is no explicit minimum figure for what represents sufficient maintenance. If dependants of the main applicant are going to accompany him / her to the United Kingdom, resources must be available for the whole family unit to be maintained.

The ECO should bear in mind the position taken by the UK Asylum and Immigration Tribunal (UKAIT):

In 2006, the UKAIT in UKAIT 00065 KA and Others (Pakistan), strongly suggested that it would not be appropriate to have immigrant families existing on resources that were less than the Income Support level for a British family of that size.

More information is available on the British & Irish Legal Information Institute website (BAILII)

If it is more likely than not that the total amount that the applicant and sponsor will have to live on will be below what the income support level would be for a British family of that size, then it may be appropriate to refuse the application on maintenance and accommodation grounds.

Maintenance may be provided by either:

* The applicant with their own funds or with funds available to them; or

* The sponsor; or

* A combination of applicant and sponsor funds.

However, the calculations do not stop there.

As a UK citizen, you are allowed to claim benefits from day one. Some may argue etc. but it is proven that you are counted as ordinarily resident in the UK the second you return to UK soil, providing you intent to remain in the UK. Therefore, you are eligible to claim for yourself, certainly for your child and probably the child who is not yours but who you are responsible for.

I could go into this further but quite simply, when the immigration services look at your savings, you would be able to make an argument that any benefits which you alone were entitled to (which would be a minimum of about £140 per week - counting only 1 child) should be taken into account. Your claiming has nothing to do with your wife's recourse to public funds. What you would have to work out would be the difference between a full entitlement for you, your wife and 2 kids and then subtract your personal entitlement. This will leave a much lower figure which is the weekly amount which your savings need to cover.

Thus, if you needed £200 per week (uk full family entitlement) but your personal entitlement was £150 per week, and you had £10,000 in savings, then they should not look at is as £10,000/£200 = 50 weeks but rather £10,000/(£200-£150)= 200 weeks.

Of course, with £10,000 in savings then they would probably reduce your benefits but you could put down a deposit on a property, pay advance rent, and then claim housing benefit and council tax benefit. This claim would not affect your wife's recourse to public funds as the Local Housing Allowance (LHA) would cover you for at least a 2 bedroom place with only you and your daughter. I can give you more information on this and other aspects if you wish.

I went though this in minute detail earlier this year, though not for settlement. I was in the same position, with assets overseas but no recent background in the UK.

[parryhandy]

Thanks for that interesting stuff. I always presumed that if you intended to claim benefits for yourself they would deny your wife the visa.

Why would I be able to claim for the child who is not mine and what is the timescale they work to i.e. they want to see I have enough money to support wife and her child for how many weeks/years ?

[7by7]

You are able to claim any and all benefits to which you may be entitled, and that would include child benefit and tax credits for your step daughter. However, any application which relied on claiming benefits to meet the maintenance requirements would probably fail, unless the sponsor was already in the UK and in receipt of public funds

If the sponsor is in receipt of public funds, it does not mean that they will be unable to support the applicant, although clearly a person who is heavily dependent on the state because they don't have sufficient means of their own will find it difficult to support another person for any length of time.

The important factor to consider is whether there will be a need for the sponsor to claim additional public funds to support the applicant if leave to enter granted.

There is no fixed amount required for maintenance, and no timescale that any funds you already have should last. Everyone's circumstances differ, and the cost of living varies widely across the UK.

MAA10 Assessing adequate means of maintenance

The following list, which is not comprehensive, is intended as a guide to the factors which may need to be considered when assessing means of maintenance:

the applicant’s past and current employment;

do the applicant’s / sponsor's educational qualifications and any other skills or qualifications offer a reasonable chance of obtaining employment? If so, that should be viewed as sufficient to meet the maintenance requirement without having to make further enquiries.

the sponsor’s current or proposed employment;

any plans the applicant has for employment in the UK;

What is the unemployment situation in the area in which the couple intend to settle? High unemployment in a particular area or amongst a certain age group with particular skills (or lack of them), is not in itself sufficient to show that the maintenance requirement has not been met. It would be a relevant factor if the couple’s plans were not realistic or if they did not have any skills or qualifications.

any arrangements which have been made, or could be made, by the sponsor, any other relatives, friends or contacts in the UK in connection with the plans for employment;

satisfied that job offers are genuine and the work likely to last for the foreseeable future?

any support which will be forthcoming from others.

[sumrit]

Thanks for that interesting stuff. I always presumed that if you intended to claim benefits for yourself they would deny your wife the visa.

Why would I be able to claim for the child who is not mine and what is the timescale they work to i.e. they want to see I have enough money to support wife and her child for how many weeks/years ?

Firstly you can claim, and have a right to claim, child benefit, for both your own and any stepchildren you are responsible for, from day one when you arrive in the UK (can take three months or more to actually get it) but you can't use it as part of your income if you're not already in receipt of it. Likewise, as a UK citizen, you're entitled to claim benefits for yourself and your children once you're in the UK, but remember any savings you have must be declared against any benefits you apply for, so it wouldn't be as simple as declaring benefits as income and topping it up with your savings.

Secondly,alhough I know of one person who successfully applied for a visa for his wife while on various benefits, there have been self employed people posting here where, because of the UK system, they have been entitled to means tested tax credits but their wife's/gf visas were then refused visas because of lack of available income. Income does seem to be one thing the ECO does look at carefully so you must show you have adequate means to support your wife in the visa application to satisfy him.

[torrenova]

You are able to claim any and all benefits to which you may be entitled, and that would include child benefit and tax credits for your step daughter. However, any application which relied on claiming benefits to meet the maintenance requirements would probably fail, unless the sponsor was already in the UK and in receipt of public funds

If the sponsor is in receipt of public funds, it does not mean that they will be unable to support the applicant, although clearly a person who is heavily dependent on the state because they don't have sufficient means of their own will find it difficult to support another person for any length of time.

The important factor to consider is whether there will be a need for the sponsor to claim additional public funds to support the applicant if leave to enter granted.

That is the chicken and the egg situation for sure. In fact, immigration cannot be certain that you would be awarded those benefits (you would for certain based upon the information supplied here) but even if they were to discount it, you would only have to show adequate (read income support and benefits level) funds and at £200 per week, you have savings enough for one year. On that basis alone, I doubt they would be able to refuse your application as someone with a job and an income cannot state that they will be able to support themselves without recourse to public funds for 12 months. There may be something to research on this timeline as no guidelines are stated. Perhaps in some case law, which formed the basis of the benefits level of income.

A critical thing is the accommodation as in London, rental costs on a 3 bed property can be as little as £1200 a month up to around £3000 a month. In central London, your LHA for a 3 bedroomed property is £750 per week, meaning that the government, through Housing Benefit, will pay you up to £750 per week for your accommodation needs. Source https://lha-direct.voa.gov.uk/Secure/LHARat...chType=PostCode and postcode SW1V 1BP (my old address).

If you can be accommodated within your family's property then any housing costs cannot go against your case.

As to the time period you would be able to finance yourself, it is worth noting that immigration will accept a tenancy agreement as evidence of suitable accommodation and tenancy agreements are usually for 6 or 12 months maximum, meaning that they will accept that you have accommodation only for perhaps another 5 months. I would argue that if they accept 5 months (or 11) in one area of the application as being sufficient, then they could hardly deny someone who has savings good for support for 12 months as not being sufficient. That would be inequitable.

[torrenova]

Thanks for that interesting stuff. I always presumed that if you intended to claim benefits for yourself they would deny your wife the visa.

Why would I be able to claim for the child who is not mine and what is the timescale they work to i.e. they want to see I have enough money to support wife and her child for how many weeks/years ?

This is what you will get.

You will get Income Support of £64.30 per week from the date you arrive but you must make the claim as soon as you arrive. All claims stem from this application. You will get Child Benefit of £20 for the first child and £13.20 for the second child. These benefits will be backdated to 3 months before they receive your claim, which will mean that you effectively receive the benefits for time spent abroad. You would do well to arrange for these forms to be sent to your family's address before you arrive to maximise your claim. You will receive Child Tax Credits of £96.32 per week based upon 2 children and this benefit will be backdated 3 months before the date of your claim as well.

Your claim for Income Support will mean you will receive money in about 4 weeks, some £250 or so.

Your claim for Child Benefit will take 8 weeks meaning you will receive around (13+8)*(20+13.2)=£697.2

Your claim for Child tax Credits will take around 4 weeks and you will receive (13+4)*96.32=£1637.44

Your weekly income will be £64.3+£33.2+£96.32=£193.82 (it can vary slightly but I'll bet this is it).

Essentially, within the first couple of months, you'll get somewhere around £2500 paid to you as backdated amounts. And yes, daft as it seems, they have to backdate it - those are the rules ! Even if you were not in the country !

You can use the link I gave in the other thread to see how much you can get in Housing Benefit. That does not affect your wife's status. You do just not get the extra for a wife until she is permanently resident. There are ways to get this but I'll discount it for now.

Drop me a line or ask here if you want any more information.

[7by7]

Whilst I don't dispute any of the above, torrenova has obviously done the research and I haven't, for the reason I gave earlier I would advise against mentioning in the applications that you intend to claim any public funds.

As you will be living with relatives, presumably rent free (get them to write a letter confirming this) until you are on your feet, £1100 will last you for quite a time. Point this out in your sponsor's letter.

Also include what steps you have taken to obtain employment once you are in the UK and include any applications already made and any letters to potential employers. Register with Job Search and maybe some private agencies and show that you have.

[torrenova]

Whilst I don't dispute any of the above, torrenova has obviously done the research and I haven't, for the reason I gave earlier I would advise against mentioning in the applications that you intend to claim any public funds.

As you will be living with relatives, presumably rent free (get them to write a letter confirming this) until you are on your feet, £1100 will last you for quite a time. Point this out in your sponsor's letter.

Also include what steps you have taken to obtain employment once you are in the UK and include any applications already made and any letters to potential employers. Register with Job Search and maybe some private agencies and show that you have.

Good point on the job front and agency interviews. Easy to arrange, no job needed and you have to register with them before they can get you work anyway.

One site you can try is http://www.jobserve.com/

I can help with financial services and particularly banking agencies if need be.

[sumrit]

Thanks for that interesting stuff. I always presumed that if you intended to claim benefits for yourself they would deny your wife the visa.

Why would I be able to claim for the child who is not mine and what is the timescale they work to i.e. they want to see I have enough money to support wife and her child for how many weeks/years ?

This is what you will get.

You will get Income Support of £64.30 per week from the date you arrive but you must make the claim as soon as you arrive. All claims stem from this application. You will get Child Benefit of £20 for the first child and £13.20 for the second child. These benefits will be backdated to 3 months before they receive your claim, which will mean that you effectively receive the benefits for time spent abroad. You would do well to arrange for these forms to be sent to your family's address before you arrive to maximise your claim. You will receive Child Tax Credits of £96.32 per week based upon 2 children and this benefit will be backdated 3 months before the date of your claim as well.

Your claim for Income Support will mean you will receive money in about 4 weeks, some £250 or so.

Your claim for Child Benefit will take 8 weeks meaning you will receive around (13+8)*(20+13.2)=£697.2

Your claim for Child tax Credits will take around 4 weeks and you will receive (13+4)*96.32=£1637.44

Your weekly income will be £64.3+£33.2+£96.32=£193.82 (it can vary slightly but I'll bet this is it).

Essentially, within the first couple of months, you'll get somewhere around £2500 paid to you as backdated amounts. And yes, daft as it seems, they have to backdate it - those are the rules ! Even if you were not in the country !

You can use the link I gave in the other thread to see how much you can get in Housing Benefit. That does not affect your wife's status. You do just not get the extra for a wife until she is permanently resident. There are ways to get this but I'll discount it for now.

Drop me a line or ask here if you want any more information.

While your figures are reasonably accurate Torrenova firstly I think that's still below the benefits allowance for a husband, wife and two children. Benefit allowances for a couple is £100.95 and £56.11 for each child plus a family premium of £17.30, meaning he would need to show a disposable income of over £230.47 to satisfy the ECO the has the funds to keep them (yes, I know there's no actual minimum income quoted but guidelines also state that the ECO could find an income below the UK benefits allowance difficult to accept).

And secondly the £11,000 savings the O/P has would be taken into account by the income support and child tax credit agencies so he wouldn't actually receive those benefits until he uses up at least some of those savings (and if he spends large amounts quickly he'll have to justify it).

As 7by7 says I don't think it's a good idea to mention any public funds you might be entitled to. Your savings would theoretically last just over forty seven weeks and, like torrenova says register with as many agencies in your area as possible to show how likely it is you'll find work.

[torrenova]

While your figures are reasonably accurate Torrenova firstly I think that's still below the benefits allowance for a husband, wife and two children. Benefit allowances for a couple is £100.95 and £56.11 for each child plus a family premium of £17.30, meaning he would need to show a disposable income of over £230.47 to satisfy the ECO the has the funds to keep them (yes, I know there's no actual minimum income quoted but guidelines also state that the ECO could find an income below the UK benefits allowance difficult to accept).

And secondly the £11,000 savings the O/P has would be taken into account by the income support and child tax credit agencies so he wouldn't actually receive those benefits until he uses up at least some of those savings (and if he spends large amounts quickly he'll have to justify it).

As 7by7 says I don't think it's a good idea to mention any public funds you might be entitled to. Your savings would theoretically last just over forty seven weeks and, like torrenova says register with as many agencies in your area as possible to show how likely it is you'll find work.

I'm not sure that each child qualifies for the same incremental increase in Child Tax Credits in much the same way as Child Benefit is paid at a lower rate for the 2nd and subsequent child. The entitled to website is a reasonable source but there can be differences in each case.

Your point about capital being an issue is valid but without making a false declaration, which could however never be proven, should the money remain in a Thai bank account for instance, the applicant could pay down a deposit on a property and advance rent and thus legitimately claim near nil assets. However, the immigration and benefits claim process are not connected in that way and whereas I accept one may not wish to state a future entitlement to benefits to pass visa requirements, it remains that those benefits are his entitlement the minute he arrives back in the UK.

As the whole issue of capital looks to the future, once in the UK and how they would be supported, it is inequitable to discount the benefits to which he would be entitled. Quite simply, they can't ask for proof of funds to be used going forward and then discount benefits income. In many respects, the benefits entitlement is akin to a salary and immigration decisions can be based on the future income and not just current capital.

I think he has sufficient capital given that he has no accommodation costs. Once in the UK, I would find some way to make sure that I had no capital which could affect any benefits claim. He would not have to make a false declaration to do that.

[parryhandy]

Just been reading your 4+ years marriage thread torrenova and this also applies to my situation in that we have been married for 7 years and living together outside the UK for 2.5 years constantly.

Do you have to specifically apply for this provision when applying for the settlement visa or is it a case of doing the KOL test and applying for Ilr early in the UK because you can show you have been married for 4+ years.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

You could in fact travel to the UK and secure a job and a suitable place to live then apply for them to join you.

[sumrit]

I'm not sure that each child qualifies for the same incremental increase in Child Tax Credits in much the same way as Child Benefit is paid at a lower rate for the 2nd and subsequent child. The entitled to website is a reasonable source but there can be differences in each case.

Your point about capital being an issue is valid but without making a false declaration, which could however never be proven, should the money remain in a Thai bank account for instance, the applicant could pay down a deposit on a property and advance rent and thus legitimately claim near nil assets. However, the immigration and benefits claim process are not connected in that way and whereas I accept one may not wish to state a future entitlement to benefits to pass visa requirements, it remains that those benefits are his entitlement the minute he arrives back in the UK.

As the whole issue of capital looks to the future, once in the UK and how they would be supported, it is inequitable to discount the benefits to which he would be entitled. Quite simply, they can't ask for proof of funds to be used going forward and then discount benefits income. In many respects, the benefits entitlement is akin to a salary and immigration decisions can be based on the future income and not just current capital.

I think he has sufficient capital given that he has no accommodation costs. Once in the UK, I would find some way to make sure that I had no capital which could affect any benefits claim. He would not have to make a false declaration to do that.

I agree with everything you say about his entitlement from the moment the O/P is in the UK (it IS the same child tax credit for each child though ). I also agree that there isn't a connection between the UKBA and benefits agencies so he wouldn't be asked about any 'sudden reduction' in savings if he applies for benefits.

The first thing he has to do though is convince the ECO, and provide documentary proof, he has sufficient funds available, and I don't think his (possible) future entitlement to benefits will be enough proof. The ECO's don't seem to like means tested benefits being used as part of proof of income. As I said in a previous post some self employed people who, because of the system of being able to offset some of their income against expenses then claim working tax credits, had their wives visa applications refused because of lack of income/funds.

I was in a similar position to the O/P in that I lived in Thailand with my wife and stepdaughter for several years before returning to the UK a few months ago. I did try to research what information we needed to supply before applying for the visas, I was fortunate though in that the company I work for pays me a small 'ill health pension' which, coupled with my savings and the fact that we were also moving in with my son rent free, gave me enough income to satisfy them.

As the O/P's priority is to get his family to the UK, supplimenting his savings with a secure job offer (even a part time one) or even letters from employment agencies stating they have work available for him when the O/P returns to the UK would, I think, hold more sway than the promise of benefits.

Another point to think about is that third party financial support (from a relative for example) is now accepted as part of proof of sufficient funds. As I understand it I don't think any money would have to be transfered into the O/P's bank account but the third party person providing the support would have to provide proof they have the funds available and a letter stating they're available to the O/P if needed. This is something that has recently been confirmed in the UK appeal courts so I'm not sure of the exact details but it's something that' worth looking into.

Edited December 27, 2009 by sumrit

[7by7]

As the whole issue of capital looks to the future, once in the UK and how they would be supported, it is inequitable to discount the benefits to which he would be entitled. Quite simply, they can't ask for proof of funds to be used going forward and then discount benefits income.

Yes they can, and probably will!

For the simple reason that as the OP is currently resident in Thailand he is not receiving any benefits at all. The ECOs do not work for any benefit agency and are not in a position to judge what, if any, benefits a visa sponsor may be entitled to once in the UK.

There is also the rider in the guidance I quoted above

although clearly a person who is heavily dependent on the state because they don't have sufficient means of their own will find it difficult to support another person for any length of time.

A said before, I think it would be very foolish for any sponsor or applicant to rely on future benefits once in the UK to meet the maintenance requirement.

[7by7]

Just been reading your 4+ years marriage thread torrenova and this also applies to my situation in that we have been married for 7 years and living together outside the UK for 2.5 years constantly.

Do you have to specifically apply for this provision when applying for the settlement visa or is it a case of doing the KOL test and applying for Ilr early in the UK because you can show you have been married for 4+ years.

You would apply for settlement as a spouse.

If the requirements for ILE are not met, then you would get a 27 month spouse visa.

If the requirements were met, except for the KOL, then you would get ILE subject to KOL. Once in the UK and the KOL is satisfied you can apply for ILR without waiting until you've been in the UK for 24 months.

If all the requirements for ILE are met, including the KOL, then you would get ILE.

See here for more details.