German/thai Student Dies Of Electrocution In Phuket

[koto]

Not to take the matter lightly - but have a degree of trouble imagining why anyone would want a warm shower in LOS. I did nothing but perspire whilst there, and thanked Buddha that cold water was readily available in those bloody big pots. I hate the cold but apparently there are others who suffer more than I do. Apologies for any offence, unintended.

Some of us are not overweight and as such don't need to take cold showers to cool off or think it is too cold showering in the morning before going to work. Especially during Dec-Jan if the cold-snap comes.

I have found that when the first water-heater is installed in a hotel or a condo, one might have an electrician do it, after that when they replace old water-heaters, "many" use their on sight handy-man, I have seen this done many times, I also have seen them leave the ground wire in the unit and not use it, they are not an Electrician, they are jack of all, master of none, I'm sure some know the right way, but it makes you wonder if yours was done right, now would be the time for a good Electrician to advertise at a good price to check and fix peoples water-heaters.

Very sad, I feel very sorry for all.

Edited December 30, 2009 by koto

[pattaya_girl]

I will never hold my Shower spray again, after reading this sad story, I will be leaving it hooked onto the wall.

I hope the poor boy rests in peace.

[trogers]

I will never hold my Shower spray again, after reading this sad story, I will be leaving it hooked onto the wall.

I hope the poor boy rests in peace.

Sorry to disappoint. Having the shower spray attached to the wall can still be fatal, or give you serious burns should there be a short circuit within the heater unit as flowing water conducts electricity.

[torrenova]

I installed a multi point hot water system in a property in Thailand earlier this year and not being an electrician of note myself and with my not trusting Thai workmanship, I asked the esteemed members here. I am so grateful for their qualified expertise and never was it so needed when two Thai electricians said that what was advised (in terms of installing new cables and safety equipment) was overkill and had a "mai pen rai" attitude, saying that it would be ok ! That they did this, knowing that my 2 year old daughter would be one of the users sickens me. That the authorities do not care or look the other way for a bribe is commonplace in this corrupt country and their lack of care towards the innocent, unless money can be extracted from them, is deplorable.

[Zamor]

What is RCBO ? I`m building a new house now and don`t consider myself qualified to see if the electric system is good. Do anybody know somebody in Nong Khai province whom are qualified to make it for me, or to do a qualified inspection of the arrangement before we starts using it ?

Hi,

I read on the other Electrical forum an old discussion about RCD's and American GFI's. In this discussion it was stated that RCD's do not give Overload protection, however I would like to point out that this is wrong, RCD's DO give overload protection, only basic, but it is there.

For example, a 100A 30mA RCD will trip if the difference between the load on the Phase conductors (Live and neutral) exceeds 30mA or if a 30mA or higher current is detected on the CPC (Earth). Further, if the total load being drawn through the RCD exceeds it's maximum rating, then the RCD will trip and disconnect the circuit.

However, and this is where many people get confused by this, a standard RCD does this by electronic determination of the load current via the detection circuitry unlike the MCB's and RCBO's. The torus forming the heart of the RCD has a small detection circuit attached to it via an op amp. The magnetic field detected by this circuit is carefully measured and if it exceeds a certain thresh-hold, as determined by the maximum load rating, then it will disconnect the circuit

To clarify this, RCBO's combine the operation of the MCB and the RCD into one unit. The RCD part operates in exactly the same way as the standard RCD, however for overload protection the RCBO contains magnetic or thermal trips, in good quality units, such as MK, Merlin-Gerin and Hager, the RCBO contains BOTH thermal and magnetic trips, just as an MCB does.

It is these differences that dictate the use of such devices. RCBO's are used to protect individual circuits that need that extra level of safety, but overload protection is still a vitally important aspect, whereas RCD's are useful, in certain circumstances, for replacing Isolators in Consumer units, Distribution Boards etc where effective disconnection may be required in an emergency or for maintenance etc, but overload protection is not required.

I hope this clarifies the difference between these devices, a proper understanding of the devices will certainly help to determine their proper use.

http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6852

[Phuket_Brad]

RIP Anurak!

This is a common problem waiting to happen 100's if not 1,000's of times in Thailand, maybe in your home! More than likely installed with out grounding and with out a Ground Earth Leak Circuit Breaker.

Unfortunately in most cases the shower hot water heater is install by non-professional electricians that just hook up power.

Pay a professional to check yours! The cost to do it right; add ground and change to correct size Earth Leak Circuit Breaker should be no more than Baht 2,000 to 3,000. Obviously there was something that caused a short in this system to the shower handle but as these type of hot water heaters get older, they all have the potential! Even if new and not installed professionally, this can happen!

[Basil B]

What is RCBO ? I`m building a new house now and don`t consider myself qualified to see if the electric system is good. Do anybody know somebody in Nong Khai province whom are qualified to make it for me, or to do a qualified inspection of the arrangement before we starts using it ?

As far as I know a "RCBO" is a "RCD" (residual Current device) & MCB Miniature Circuit Breaker).

The RCD part detects an imbalance in the feed and return current in a circuit so if any current leaks out it should trip.

I have seen some for sale in Home-Pro but I would not buy as I suspect most comes out of China and I certainly would not buy anything from China if my life depended upon it.

I have seen too many items come out of China, stamped with CE, BS Kite Marks, TUV, URL, etc; unfortunately most of it would not meet any of those standards.

[TheBrit]

Indeed a senseless waste of a young mans life

2 Q's for those in the know

1. I have lived at my current Bkk location for 4+ years, never had any issues with shocks from any appliance in the room - bldg is about 6 years old - would you think given that that the place is actually grounded?

2. A few posts here mentioned putting a rubber mat or wearing rubber soled flops in the shower, will this actually help if you did run into this problem?

Thx

K

1) I would say the building is earthed, but i could not stake my reputation on it. No shocks, is a good thing. No matter how old a building is, there should be an Earth, but you would expect it to be in a modern one more than an old one..

2) Once you are wet, it doesn't matter how much rubber you have on your feet, because you are wet. Shoes are generally rubber soled, but you still get shocks. Also the problem is sweating. Being in a hot country, you generally have water flowing all over your body in the form of sweat, so just be safe..... Don't touch things that look dodgy.

TB

[paulchiangmai]

Many people have died in Patong over the last few years. The owners of the hotels never get prosecuted because the Police put down in the report accidental death.....

Pay the Police and you get immunity to prosecutions like this.

A friend of mine, lost his grandson. He and his wife were looking after the grandson who was near the swimming pool, and their was a fault with the lights around the pool and killed him. so very sad and tragic.

If you dont know what you are doing, don't touch anything....

Some tips for people are worried about Electric Safety in their homes :-

See if their is an Earth stake around the house somewhere. Quite easy to spot, a yellow/green wire (it should be but in Thailand they use all sorts of wires) going down the side of the building and into the ground.

3 pin sockets, TURN OFF POWER - you can pull the front off, and see if their are 3 different wires in the back of the socket. Live, Neutral and Earth. They should be clearly marked in the back of the actual socket itself.

DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE -

TURN OFF POWER - CAUTION - Open the fuse box, normally just 2 flat bladed screws. Their should be 2 main wires coming in from the outside into the MAIN SWITCH (Live and Neutral) There should also be another wire (normally at the top) of the box where the Earths are. DO NOT POKE THINGS, just look with eyes, no sticking objects in there at all.

Do not assume because you see an earth stake in the ground that you are properly earthed. I had an electrician [did I say that?] install an earth for my water heaters, he hammered the spike in right alongside the house, just a short way down he hit the concrete foundation, what did he do? He simply hacksawed through the spike at that level, I finished up with an earth only a foot in to the ground. Incidentally, when I connected the electrical wires to these heaters there were three wires protruding out of the wall for me to connect too, I thought I had better just check, good thing I did as these earth wires simply went into the roof space and were connected to nothing at all. This electrician [did I say that again?] is to this day doing all the wiring in all the houses in my village, still no earthing system what so ever.

[TheBrit]

I had purchased a condo in Chiang Mai. As the standard hot water heater was looking pretty tired, I decided to change it. I carefully turned off the shower heater breaker, and started to disconnect it from the wall. Next thing I know I am getting the shit shocked out of me.... After a moment of astonishment, I took the panel cover off the breaker box. It turns out that whoever had wired it up had put the breakers on the ground side, instead of the live side. So the breaker would in essence turn the device off, but there was still live 220 power being supplied to it. Might be something for everyone to check.

NOT uncommon, i recently saw a house with this setup.

They then linked the neutral and the earth together

Just to make sure

TB

[chessplayer]

I was shocked before by touching the monitor screens of some thai computers. I wonder have any of you experienced this too

[trogers]

RIP Anurak!

This is a common problem waiting to happen 100's if not 1,000's of times in Thailand, maybe in your home! More than likely installed with out grounding and with out a Ground Earth Leak Circuit Breaker.

Unfortunately in most cases the shower hot water heater is install by non-professional electricians that just hook up power.

Pay a professional to check yours! The cost to do it right; add ground and change to correct size Earth Leak Circuit Breaker should be no more than Baht 2,000 to 3,000. Obviously there was something that caused a short in this system to the shower handle but as these type of hot water heaters get older, they all have the potential! Even if new and not installed professionally, this can happen!

Had a Stiebel Eltron water heater for over 12 years and one day (about 2 years ago) when touching the bath mixer faucet, I got a shock.

Called in an electrician who took off the cover of the heater. Found a fried house lizard between 2 contacts that shorted the heater unit. It has since been replaced by a National and decided an ELCB is a must in all my condo units.

[ttthailand]

You would have to do the numbers but I would guess that it is almost as safe to be in Afghanistan as in Thailand. I read thaivisa and get other Thailand info from the net and I wonder.... If it is not direct in your face crime it is crazy sh.t like this. Third World !!!!

[khaowong1]

I spent a lot of years as an electrician in the U.S. I refuse to take a shower when the water is coming out of these "on the wall - water heater units".. they are a death trap waiting to happen... Thai's seem to have no clue about electricity...

[TheBrit]

In the west, we use 25mm cable into the building. This allows for 100amps.

Most houses in Thailand are running 10mm cable, which they then put a 63A fuse on.

10mm can run 63A but you are talking right on the high end of the cable. So be aware of how much stuff you are loading into your house and on your fuse box, because chances are they just slap in a 100A switch and still keep the pathetically small cable attached to your house. (I am not taking into account of distance which drops the amperage of the cable).

About the Earth, in my eyes, this should be AS big as the cable coming in. It isn't good to run a tiny piece of earth cable, because if their is a fault, the cable becomes the fuses, melts and probably sets fire to the house.

I would recommend 4mm cable for anyone who wants to run an Earth from the shower, because in Thailand, they only use a small heater. In the UK, you can get 10Kw showers - which are totally pointless, because the cable and equipment needed to power the shower, costs more than the shower is actually worth.

Also in the UK, normally showers are on a PULL switch as well, which means ALL the power goes through the switch first so you can isolate it, as and when you need to.

It is possible now to also buy sockets that have covers on them, which helps prevent kids sticking items in them. Although they are NOT as safe as the UK 3 pin method (which requires the Earth pin to open up the shutters) it is recommended for those who do have children.

STOP buying them 60 baht extension leads where you can SEE the connectors. Many of them run 0.5mm cable and then put a 10amp fuse in it. This just means the entire extension cable will melt and cause a fire and probably kill someone.

Please buy Extension Cables with 2.5mm Cable - which is then rated at a full 13amps. Also it should be earthed.

Like someone else pointed out, no one has said - well this is Thailand, live with it. It is good to know, that mental attitude has not popped its ugly head in here, because none of us really want to lose someone we care about. It is sad enough hearing about someone you don't know let alone being that person who has lost the loved one.

The information on RCD's MCB's and RCBO's is excellent. Please, I know we are not all stinking rich in this country, but if you can afford to put at least an RCD into your house and an Earth, you are 95% of the way to making your house extremely safe.

An RCD saved my life when I was working on an 8KW shower. The lady turned the fuses back on in the Fuse Box, forgetting I was working upstairs. The Electric went through my hand and stopped at my elbow, saving me from probably death. RCD's are a MUST!!

The other pitfalls here are Cross circuits and never using a standard electrical wiring system. No earthing (bonding) or anything like that on pipes or sockets.

If you do get shocks from your appliances, then you are NOT earthed and this could potentially kill you, if something does actually go wrong with your device. It takes 60Volts to feel a tingle on your fingers. So the threat is very real.

Stay Safe

TB

Edited December 30, 2009 by TheBrit

[steffi]

Is this the kind of accident that is prevented by the use of one of those circuit breakers? My wife's family uses these kinds of heaters so what is it that was faulty about this one?

[dhrobertson]

OK, enough!

The Thai EIT code requires all water heaters to have ELCB (RCBO) protection. Thais normally use a 10mA trip current but I prefer 30mA.

This is actually more stringent than BS7671:2008 or IEC60364.

Problem in Thailand is that there is no inspection and testing.

Please do not listen to amateur opinions in this area. Just adding a ground rod will not give adequate protection.

If in doubt, ask a professional and/or have your installation inspected.

Sadly, we have regularly had to investigate and give professional advice on fatalities.

If anyone requires further information, I will be happy to respond

[mamboze]

Getting electric chocks from my computers chassis is getting tiresome...

I had the same problem in our house which has ground installed. Computer and monitor gave a slight but nonetheless unpleasant shock when touched. I used Australian 3 pin plugs and an adaptor plug into the wall socket. No good. It was fixed by plugging in a 3 pin Thai power board into the socket and then an Australian power board into the Thai board and the computer etc into that. Sounds a bit complicated but it works well.

I had a similar experience with my audio equipment. Slight but annoying shocks from the knobs. At fault was a cheap but less than 12 months old DVD player, not earthed just a 2 pin plug. Apparently, there was some leakage internally. When I chucked it, no more problems. I guess the moral here is not to buy cheap electronics sourced from God knows where.

I agree with previous posts about the quality of electrical installation in this country. It is abysmal. I had one Thai electrician (so-called) tell me that it only involved a few milli-amps and was nothing to worry about. Yeah?

Any suggestions about routine maintenance or testing of heaters would be welcome. I guess the first thing to test is for continuity to ground from the heater. But I'm not a professional electrician. Any suggestions?

[kelts]

I own a resort on Samui with 25 rooms with these kind of showers. I lived on site and have been shocked (electrically) maybe 100 times over the past 5 years. Very discomforting and unpleaseant but not life threatening. Also have a 30 million baht house with all european appliances. I got shocked there once through 3 phase. Almost died. I was a shaking mess for 2 days after. And this was meant to be a westernised house with a proper hot water system. The electric systems in place in this country are dangerous to the point of stupidity. It is a disgrace. Having an earth as a required minimum standard would elimanate pointless casualties that we have witnessed recently. Get with the program Thailand

[dhrobertson]

Insulation performance of water heaters can be measured using a Megga or similar. We inject 500V dc and measure the resistance between phase and ground which should be at least 2Mohms.

Ground performance is determined by measuring ground fault loop impedance. What we are looking for is sufficient current to flow in the case of a ground fault. Most MCBs in Thailand have a type C characteristic. This means that ten times the rated current is required for the MCB to trip quickly. (As a GENERAL rule, it is usually the case that a ground wire one size down from the live wires is adequate)

RCBOs are referred to as ELCBs in Thailand. Generally, we replace the MCB for a final circuit with an ELCB of appropriate rating. The overload characteristic must be such that the smallest wire in a circuit is protected from overload. The trip current should be no more than 30mA for shock protection.

Ground rods should generally be 3m long copper clad steel. We usually install these as an array of 3. Thai EIT code specifies impedance to ground should be less than 5 ohms.

There are several types of ground system. TT, TN-S and TN-C-S being the most common.

This is all serious stuff. This why in the West, qualified electricians are required to do the work by law and even then, their work requires inspection.

As I stated above, I will be happy to provide further details if anyone requires that. (We are based in Phuket and Bangkok).

[trogers]

You would have to do the numbers but I would guess that it is almost as safe to be in Afghanistan as in Thailand. I read thaivisa and get other Thailand info from the net and I wonder.... If it is not direct in your face crime it is crazy sh.t like this. Third World !!!

No comment.

Is there an electrician "on Board"??

I use the same equipment -- but no earth. I stay 15 meters up on the third floor, there is no way an earth can be lead, 15 meters down is no ground, just cement, no way to place a copper rod, guess we have to dig through the rubble they buried down there under the house...and what is there?

Just drill in the cement walls - does this do it? Do i have to hit some iron? And if yes, how do i know it is connecting with the rest of the buildings iron down into the ground?

I HAVE seen the green cable from that Hot Water Boiler -- but where to put it?

Apparently the House is not grounded, meaning they put the neutral and the earth together.

Some answers please?!

Thanks! I just took a shower and didnt like any of this..

A proper grounding to earth will reduce the chance of fatality but will still give you a shock if you touch a live metal component.

An ELCB at the mains will remained tripped and cut off main power supply if there is an earth leakage. In such a case, we turn off all the breaker switches at the mains, turn on the ELCB, and click on the breaker switch one at a time, until we identify the one that causes the tripping. This breaker switch can be kept turned off while the others can be turned on. Call in the electrician to locate and rectify the source of leakage.

An ELCB can still protect if your home has no proper earth grounding. You become the ground in this case, but the ELCB will trip in less than 100 ms, limiting the shock to you.

Edited December 30, 2009 by trogers

[dhrobertson]

All socket outlets and fixed current using equipment require a ground connection in Thailand. This has been the case for years.

Ground and neutral must be separate within buildings. However a combined ground/neutral cable may be used to feed the building. Of course neutral is bonded to ground at the transformer and often at additional points between the transformer and installation.

As stated above, all water heaters require ELCB/RCBO protection.

In Thailand (with local ambient temperatures) 35mm NYY (Cu, double sheathed, PVC 70C) running underground in ducts are required as a minimum for 100A.

Ground conductor should be no less than 50% size of feeders.

[dhrobertson]

This why we prefer to use individual ELCBs (RCBOs) to protect final circuits.

With a single ELCB at the origin, a single fault results in total power loss.

Be careful with the trip current rating. 30mA is ideal for this purpose. I find 10mA too sensitive. 100mA, 300mA and more are available for other applications.

[crocodilexp]

Quick do-it-yourself grounding test.

http://electrical.about.com/od/troubleshoo...calcircuits.htm

All 2-prong sockets are not grounded. The 3-prong sockets should be grounded -- they contain a hot, neutral (often indistinguishable) and ground holes. To check if they are properly grounded:

1. Check between hot and neutral plugs (two main ones). Indicator should light up, or show 220V.

2. Check between hot (one of the two main holes), and ground (third one). Indicator should light up again. If it doesn't light up between ground and either of the two holes, it is not properly grounded.

[dhrobertson]

Forgot to mention, ground/earth is not required for correct ELCB/RCBO operation.

[trogers]

This why we prefer to use individual ELCBs (RCBOs) to protect final circuits.

With a single ELCB at the origin, a single fault results in total power loss.

Be careful with the trip current rating. 30mA is ideal for this purpose. I find 10mA too sensitive. 100mA, 300mA and more are available for other applications.

I prefer setting sensitivity to 16mA or 20mA, depending on what is available in the ELCB. 10mA or less causes frequent tripping when plugging appliances. Such a low setting is only suitable with power sockets that have a switch, ie. plug in and then switch on.

[dhrobertson]

This why we prefer to use individual ELCBs (RCBOs) to protect final circuits.

With a single ELCB at the origin, a single fault results in total power loss.

Be careful with the trip current rating. 30mA is ideal for this purpose. I find 10mA too sensitive. 100mA, 300mA and more are available for other applications.

I prefer setting sensitivity to 16mA or 20mA, depending on what is available in the ELCB. 10mA or less causes frequent tripping when plugging appliances. Such a low setting is only suitable with power sockets that have a switch, ie. plug in and then switch on.

I agree. Significant leakage currents are present whenever we have switch mode power supplies in computer etc. In Thailand, 10mA ELCBs are the most common type. Thai "electricians" are disinclined to use these because of the nuisence tripping. Therefore, I suggest 30mA is perfect for the fixed trip current type. Where you have an adjustable RCD at the origin, I agree that 16mA or 20mA is fine. You will not be surprised to hear that we frequently find these units set to the off setting to over-ride an existing fault!!

[marc11864]

Mai pen rai. Why are you still living there?

As an Electrician, it does amaze me why Thai buildings (including ones farang have built for them)

are always missing the Earth, as well as being wired up completely wrong.

The very sad thing is, that there are laws that the Thai's are meant to abide by and sign a certificate saying the electrical installation is safe. Obviously no one checks or actually cares.

I would also say, I was checking out the wiring in the new Shell Petrol Station in Phuket, and being Shell, i would have thought their would be standards... Alas I was wrong. Very poorly wired with 3 phase 25mm cables coming in, earthed by a 4mm cable... = death when a problem occurs. But at least there was an Earth.... did it work... dunno... maybe it just looked good.

TB

So you are saying these electrocutions occur due to faulty wiring within the structures themselves? I was under the impression it was the shower units that caused it.

I live on whats regarded as a hiso moo barn (sign says prestige zone) and this house is around 4 years old, I get shocks off almost everything which is connected (just got one as i type on the laptop) pc, fridge, tv, last month the landlady asked if i would like to install hot showers in both bathrooms and could,nt understand how i can shower cold...said hot is much better, I shook my head then she gave me a confused look so i took her hand and walked her into the kitchen then asked her to look in the fridge, She took hold of the fridge door handle ...gave a high pitched scream then did a short dance on the spot

I told her...i,ve looked behind the sockets...there is no earth installed here and cant imagine the affects of a water heater ...her answer was mai pen rai...put a cloth around the fridge door handle

[faranginexile]

That's all I think about whenever I use those kinds of showers, especially old looking ones. So sad.

I'll second that. Frankly, I'm amazed that in over twenty years of contact with the Kingdom, this is the first instance of such an electrocution that I've heard of.

Edited December 30, 2009 by faranginexile

[dhrobertson]

Mai pen rai. Why are you still living there?

As an Electrician, it does amaze me why Thai buildings (including ones farang have built for them)

are always missing the Earth, as well as being wired up completely wrong.

The very sad thing is, that there are laws that the Thai's are meant to abide by and sign a certificate saying the electrical installation is safe. Obviously no one checks or actually cares.

I would also say, I was checking out the wiring in the new Shell Petrol Station in Phuket, and being Shell, i would have thought their would be standards... Alas I was wrong. Very poorly wired with 3 phase 25mm cables coming in, earthed by a 4mm cable... = death when a problem occurs. But at least there was an Earth.... did it work... dunno... maybe it just looked good.

TB

So you are saying these electrocutions occur due to faulty wiring within the structures themselves? I was under the impression it was the shower units that caused it.

I live on whats regarded as a hiso moo barn (sign says prestige zone) and this house is around 4 years old, I get shocks off almost everything which is connected (just got one as i type on the laptop) pc, fridge, tv, last month the landlady asked if i would like to install hot showers in both bathrooms and could,nt understand how i can shower cold...said hot is much better, I shook my head then she gave me a confused look so i took her hand and walked her into the kitchen then asked her to look in the fridge, She took hold of the fridge door handle ...gave a high pitched scream then did a short dance on the spot

I told her...i,ve looked behind the sockets...there is no earth installed here and cant imagine the affects of a water heater ...her answer was mai pen rai...put a cloth around the fridge door handle

I strongly suggest you get an inspection done asap.

An RCD installed at the system origin could save your life but you are still likely to get minor shocks from un-earthed equipment. These are never enjoyable but they will certainly not be fatal. As stated before, grounded socket outlets have been a requirement for years.