German/thai Student Dies Of Electrocution In Phuket

[Slaps]

How can one determine if the electrical system in a condo is "earthed" If it isn't can metal water plumbing be used as "earth" as it would not be easy to run a wire to the ground floor.

Yes, but only if the metal water plumbing is earthed

[atyclb]

Yes, but only if the metal water plumbing is earthed

How can I check if the metal plumbing is earthed?

[Slaps]

Sorry but it's back to finding someone with a meter who knows what hes doing

There's no guarantee the metal pipework has not been replaced with plastic pipe somewhere between you and earth

If your not sure about your existing heater replace it with a well know brand

and have it installed by that company

Peace of mind for about 5k

Hope you sort it

[SabaiBKK]

Making your own earth is quite easy. A galvinised steel stake in the ground and running an earth lead from the shower to this should be adequate to trip the earth leakage breaker. You can use a jubilee pipe clip for the connection and I coat the connection with grease to stop corrosion getting in and check it from time to time.

i'm sorrry but please refrain from giving potentially dangerous advice....

"A ground is not any of the following:

• A ground is not a wire screwed into the wall
  
• A ground is not a wire stuck into the dirt
  
• A ground is not a wire connected to just anything metal and big
  

A ground is a wire connected to an uninterrupted metal electrical conductor that deeply penetrates the ground, usually two meters deep in Bangkok. (Outside of Bangkok, this sometimes takes a sledgehammer.) In dry places, it takes multiple conductors and/or deeper conductors. In Bangkok, a two meter copper rod is usually quite sufficient, because the ground is very wet starting at less than a meter of depth. You can push a copper rod down two meters with your hands in Bangkok (sitting on it at the end, such as putting a board on top of the rod when it's low), since the ground is just mud and clay, no rocks, and with the water table barely under the surface."

from http://www.thailandguru.com/grounding-eart...ical.html#right

Edited December 31, 2009 by SabaiBKK

[TheBrit]

I've heard that having more than one ground in a system can cause problems due to different earth potentials.

My electric guy insisted on a dedicated ground rod at the shower unit, which I thought was a good idea.

There is also a dedicated ground at an outbuilding, recently rewired (all 3wire in the house)

Comments? Crossy maybe?

This is why you have Bonding, which earths metal areas all together, but every earth should potentially go to the fuse box first, then the fuse box is what is grounded.

Due to designs in Thailand, most of the time this is not possible, but if you are willing to pay for the expense, then running the Earths from the Fuse Box will eliminate any differences in resistance.

TB

[SabaiBKK]

You would have to do the numbers but I would guess that it is almost as safe to be in Afghanistan as in Thailand. I read thaivisa and get other Thailand info from the net and I wonder.... If it is not direct in your face crime it is crazy sh.t like this. Third World !!!!

yeah , third world is such a dangerous place full of idiots not worth you patronizing them.... you should go back to your great civilized country where everyone is much more intelligent and worthwhile of your company ....

Thailand : accept the flaws or go back to your country .... as simple as that

[SabaiBKK]

ok for those who are wondering about proper grounding you should read this ( i'm in no way connected with this site but its a MUST READ) http://www.thailandguru.com/electricity-22...s-thailand.html

[Forkinhades]

I would also say, I was checking out the wiring in the new Shell Petrol Station in Phuket, and being Shell, i would have thought their would be standards... Alas I was wrong. Very poorly wired with 3 phase 25mm cables coming in, earthed by a 4mm cable... = death when a problem occurs. But at least there was an Earth.... did it work... dunno... maybe it just looked good.

TB

maybe the adiabatic equation equalled 4mm

[Forkinhades]

How can one determine if the electrical system in a condo is "earthed" If it isn't can metal water plumbing be used as "earth" as it would not be easy to run a wire to the ground floor.

Absolutely Not!!

In the UK this is a failure

[masterbiker49]

I am a qualified Electrician & Electrical Inspector/W.H.S.Officer of 43 yrs+ in the real world.The trouble here is as always that no training or very bad little bit of training is given for any job here in Thailand.Gas Installation is another area that is just waiting for a major accident to happen,& don't get me started on Work Place Health & Safety.My brother in law works for the local Electricity Board,they do not have any electrical test equipment,such as a multimeter or megger & don't know that there is such a thing.I gave my brother in law a multimeter & a crash course on how to use it & a proximity tester(u hold it near live wires & it Buzzers & light Flashes),he has got a promotion & is now called on by others to find problems.All his training was from me over a couple of days,In Aus he would do a 4 year apprenticeship.Then u wonder why Farangs & others are being Killed And just 4 fun lets put in the thai Drivers,then again I haven't got enough years left in me 4 that one.

[TheBrit]

Also you have to remember about Thailand, it uses the worst electrical system.

It allows US standard electrical style (which is poor) with 220V which means death.

Flat bladed pins, that HANG OUT of the wall, never securely into a socket that wobbles about.... Its just Crazy.

The EU style is slightly better but not without its faults.

The safest by far is the UK System, which is used in other places like Malaysia and Singapore.

When using a 220V system, the EU standards should be used, and the flat pins should be stopped.

You can also easily tell if your appliance is of any standards at all, by looking at the cable. If it resembles speaker cable (just 2 wires) it is sub-par and probably has an American style plug.

If it is a round cable, it means it is double sheathed (same as EU) and probably has round pins. I avoid anything that now contains poor quality wiring. (which includes fans).

TB

[Forkinhades]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/style_ima...e_types/gif.gif

I brought a dual RCD Distribution 'skeleton' box from the UK, which fits (little bit of adjusting) over the existing Square D distribution board that was installed, also have a 2 meter earth rod in the garden, and all my metal appliances are earthed. Tested with UK test equipment (Meggar MFT 620) trips out in less than 40 milliseconds under fault conditions ( ie impossible to get a shock). If anybody is interested in this type of system, then please pm me.

This is also a lot more aestheticly pleasing than the thai safet cut boxes, which I would not trust anyway.

RIP

[tjd46]

"...presumed..."? Is that it? Are the the police having the water heater tested?

[anterian]

these type of showers normally have a built in RCBO, but this would not operate if a earth is not connected in this installation. my bet is there wasn't.

this sad death could have been so easily avoided. baaaaaaaaaaaaaa

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about ELCBs and RCCBs, perhaps it is a difference of terminology between American and British usage.

An ELCB is an earth leakage circuit breaker, it has an earth wire and trips when it detects current flow in this wire, it does not need to be a substantial thickness, just enough to safely pass the tripping current. Thus if the case of a water heater becomes "live" a current will flow through the domestic earth wiring to the ELCB and hence down the Earth cable to ground, this will trip the ELCB.

An RCCB is a residual current circuit breaker, it needs no earth connections at all. It works by looking at the incoming and outgoing currents, the live and neutral currents. They will normally be equal. If however you were to touch a live wire some current would flow through your body to earth rather than back through the neutral wire. The live and neutral currents would no longer be balanced and the device would trip.

With both devices the tripping current can be between 5 mA to 30 mA (normal domestic), to as high as 1 amp.

These devices trip in milliseconds and 30 mA is on the borderline of sensation for a normal adult.

Most domestic wiring in Thailand uses twin cable, not twin and Earth, so unless an earth wire has been run in with the cable the ELCB does nothing, it is purely cosmetic So such installations must use a RCCB.

I have met many Thai electricians, only one knew of RCCB devices, Homepro sells them but does not realise it, you have to check on the box whether it is an ELCB or a RCCB. IF all in Thai look at the diagram, if it shows one coil it is an ELCB, if it shows two coils it is an RCCB.

My local BigC has a stall demonstrating RCCBs. If you have an ELCB you can replace it directly with an RCCB, it is a transparent operation.

My house is wired throughout by a two wire system, I will happily stick my fingers in a live socket, 50 baht per demo

Last year my tomcat "squirted" a wall socket, the electricity tripped and the cat noticed nothing, just carried on squirting. (He has since lost his testicles so no more tests).

I have a feeling that Americans call a RCCB an RCBO but am not sure, searching Google they seem to use ELCB and RCBO interchangeably, but then at 110v they have less to worry about.

As a side issue, electricity is like drugs, you can build up tolerance to its effects. I have been involved with electricity for over 60 years and normal mains shocks are nothing worse than an irritation, many people use a neon screwdriver to test if a wire is live, I often just brush my finger over the wire. Note, this is not a recommended method for most people.

[tjd46]

"...presumed..."? Is that it? Are the the police having the water heater tested?

[trogers]

How can one determine if the electrical system in a condo is "earthed" If it isn't can metal water plumbing be used as "earth" as it would not be easy to run a wire to the ground floor.

Absolutely Not!!

In the UK this is a failure

And if that steel water pipe is not earthed, how many neighbours in the condo will be killed?

[TheBrit]

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/style_ima...e_types/gif.gif

I brought a dual RCD Distribution 'skeleton' box from the UK, which fits (little bit of adjusting) over the existing Square D distribution board that was installed, also have a 2 meter earth rod in the garden, and all my metal appliances are earthed. Tested with UK test equipment (Meggar MFT 620) trips out in less than 40 milliseconds under fault conditions ( ie impossible to get a shock). If anybody is interested in this type of system, then please pm me.

This is also a lot more aestheticly pleasing than the thai safet cut boxes, which I would not trust anyway.

RIP

It is nice to see quality equipment again.....

No one wants to pay the price for Quality, which then costs lives.

The pain in your wallet is a lot less pain than in your heart.

TB

[Forkinhades]

The DB I have shown in my earlier post is an RCCB (Residual Current Circuit Breaker) it has 2, so if you have a house, you put your upstairs lights on the same RCCB as your side as your downstairs sockets (in thailand they generally take one cable to each room, and feed everything off that). So you set your your system up that in event of a fault, you should have a light or a socket working in every room. Would mean re-wiring the whole of Thailand

[cliffhornsby]

very tragic, when i first started to visit thailand ten years ago i was horrified at these types of showers and the installation of them and swore if i ever built a house i would have a different system installed, now with my house nearly complete i have an excellent plumbing and electrical system with trip switches upstairs and downstairs and properly earthed, this system has passed all the weather that thailand can throw at it, also the hot water is piped all over the house from a storage heating system with its own seperate plug in point wired straight back to the mains box, all the water comes from a tank which i had constructed and filled up by the local water supply so that it is full all the time, then i installed a big pressure pump to feed the house, end result beautiful hot and cold water all over the bathrooms at fantastic pressure and perfect electrics, so moral of the story is if your investing in your own house, get it done correctly in the fist place and save yourself alot of hassle later. Those types of showers are dangerous when installed by idiots (anyone who´s built a house will know what i mean by idiots) cheers for now cliff hornsby (plumbing and heating engineer)

[crazyswede]

Surprised anyone?

[ArthurPewty]

I have an AEG shower unit, but I did not fit it and I am not an electrician. What should I look for? There appears to be some kind of cut off switch, is that enough.

In response to this post, How sad and on Christmas day. The sadness is componded by the fact that nobody will be responsible.

[perax]

How can one determine if the electrical system in a condo is "earthed" If it isn't can metal water plumbing be used as "earth" as it would not be easy to run a wire to the ground floor.

Absolutely Not!!

In the UK this is a failure

And if that steel water pipe is not earthed, how many neighbours in the condo will be killed?

There are also other reasons. Regardless of the quality of the earth connection and of the equipment, there is always some residual current leaking through the earthing system. Over the medium period this typically causes corrosion in the junctions (copper cable - water pipe, pipe segment-segment, etc.) leading to a deterioration in quality of the grounding system and/or possibly to a leaking pipe. It's just not a good idea.

Just for reference, at 220V, a 50mA discharge that crosses the body could induce fibrillation if lasting over 200ms. It depends on the path the current takes through the body.

For example, in an hand-hand path, people would 'normally' perceive a 0.5mA current, might lose muscular control from 6mA up, and start having respiratory problems from 20mA up. For a person of average weight, fibrillation starts with currents in the range from 75 to 400 mA.

So, if you buy a shower heater with a differential safety switch (you should), make sure it's set to trip at 30mA/100milliseconds or better.

[TheBrit]

I have an AEG shower unit, but I did not fit it and I am not an electrician. What should I look for? There appears to be some kind of cut off switch, is that enough.

In response to this post, How sad and on Christmas day. The sadness is componded by the fact that nobody will be responsible.

If you can see the wires going into the shower, there should be 3, Live Neutral and Earth.

If you can't see the wires, Turn off the power to the house, Open up the box (screw normally underneath) and just count the wires.

As someone pointed out earlier it probably has an ELCB which needs an Earth.

TB

[Forkinhades]

I have an AEG shower unit, but I did not fit it and I am not an electrician. What should I look for? There appears to be some kind of cut off switch, is that enough.

In response to this post, How sad and on Christmas day. The sadness is componded by the fact that nobody will be responsible.

If you can see the wires going into the shower, there should be 3, Live Neutral and Earth.

If you can't see the wires, Turn off the power to the house, Open up the box (screw normally underneath) and just count the wires.

As someone pointed out earlier it probably has an ELCB which needs an Earth.

TB

The circuit should be tested, a fault current is applied at 30mA and it should trip within 40 milliseconds, if it does not then it is dangerous.

Forget about looking for wires. every circuit needs to be tested!!, the circuit might have a earth, but it could just be cosmetic.

[Latindancer]

I carefully turned off the shower heater breaker, and started to disconnect it from the wall. Next thing I know I am getting the shit shocked out of me.... After a moment of astonishment, I took the panel cover off the breaker box. It turns out that whoever had wired it up had put the breakers on the ground side, instead of the live side. So the breaker would in essence turn the device off, but there was still live 220 power being supplied to it. Might be something for everyone to check.

Thanks for mentioning this......I was wondering how my shower unit gave me a slight shock after I had turned off the power to my apartment.

I had the cover off, checking out where the internal water leak was coming from. There is a sticker saying "This unit MUST be earthed", but of course there is none.....

The famous writer and Christian mystic Thomas Merton was killed like this in a bathroom in Bangkok in 1068, but things haven't changed.....

He was arguably the most influential American Catholic author of the twentieth century. He wrote over sixty books and hundreds of poems and articles on topics ranging from monastic spirituality to civil rights, nonviolence, and the nuclear arms race. He was here to study Buddhism, and died of electrocution in a bathroom.

After several meetings with Merton during the American monk's trip to the Far East in 1968, the Dali Lama praised him as having a more profound understanding of Buddhism than any other Christian he had known.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Latindancer

[runker]

All of you who are living with these minor shocks may be at risk for future health issues. When I was teaching for the Navy, we were required to send any student who experienced a minor shock to medical to be checked out. We (instructors) thought it was a little over the top but the medical people insisted these shocks could do damage to the heart if not kill you. http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/in...y/overview.html

[trogers]

I have an AEG shower unit, but I did not fit it and I am not an electrician. What should I look for? There appears to be some kind of cut off switch, is that enough.

In response to this post, How sad and on Christmas day. The sadness is componded by the fact that nobody will be responsible.

If you can see the wires going into the shower, there should be 3, Live Neutral and Earth.

If you can't see the wires, Turn off the power to the house, Open up the box (screw normally underneath) and just count the wires.

As someone pointed out earlier it probably has an ELCB which needs an Earth.

TB

Water heaters rated up to 12 kW have an option for 3-phase power supply, and it will be more complicated then just Live, Neutral and Earth. This should only be installed by a qualified tech. My Stiebel Eltron is such a device.

[Forkinhades]

Water heaters rated up to 12 kW have an option for 3-phase power supply, and it will be more complicated then just Live, Neutral and Earth. This should only be installed by a qualified tech. My Stiebel Eltron is such a device.

People like you are 'danergous' (a little knowelege is dangerous), unless you the math and formula, keep quiet

[Sturbuc]

Lost for words

But defiantly avoidable for a few baht more

RIP

Well, Mr. Clever. Maybe there is was an built-in fault current protection switch [ELCB/FI] but this doesn't help if there's a problem with the installation. But to have the whole electric installation in the bathroom secured is not usual in Thailand (and many other countries). Everything else is speculation and subject to be examined. THINK.

RIP

Edited December 31, 2009 by Sturbuc

[peecee]

As an Electrician, it does amaze me why Thai buildings (including ones farang have built for them)

are always missing the Earth, as well as being wired up completely wrong.

The very sad thing is, that there are laws that the Thai's are meant to abide by and sign a certificate saying the electrical installation is safe. Obviously no one checks or actually cares.

I would also say, I was checking out the wiring in the new Shell Petrol Station in Phuket, and being Shell, i would have thought their would be standards... Alas I was wrong. Very poorly wired with 3 phase 25mm cables coming in, earthed by a 4mm cable... = death when a problem occurs. But at least there was an Earth.... did it work... dunno... maybe it just looked good.

TB

So you are saying these electrocutions occur due to faulty wiring within the structures themselves? I was under the impression it was the shower units that caused it.

Any electrical appliance should be earthed preferebly with an RCD and alway's were water is involved.