Brick Or Block...?

[chownah]

farangs can only do jobs that thais cant, for this they need a work permit, do u really think you can get a work permit to do the brick work on ur house? or even to water your garden??? im pretty sure you cant, 3 months ago i know of an american who was arrested for mowing his lawn, yep, thats a hard one to get a work permit for....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Work permits are for being employed. If you don't accept money for doing it then you are not employed and the entire work permit thing does not apply.

Chownah

[thai_norman]

if you dont accept money for doing it then you need to be on a b visa and acting as a unpaid consultant, i dont think brick building or laying you will get away with, i spent many years as a ###### consultant, but i dont know anything about damns.

[Totster]

farangs can only do jobs that thais cant, for this they need a work permit, do u really think you can get a work permit to do the brick work on ur house? or even to water your garden??? im pretty sure you cant, 3 months ago i know of an american who was arrested for mowing his lawn, yep, thats a hard one to get a work permit for....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Work permits are for being employed. If you don't accept money for doing it then you are not employed and the entire work permit thing does not apply.

Chownah

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thailand seems to considers any form of working is "working" ... paid or not...

I think you would be extremely unlucky to be arrested for mowing your lawn though... I think like most things it all depends on how the local officers interpret the law.

totster

[The_Other_Mac]

I think you would be extremely unlucky to be arrested for mowing your lawn though... I think like most things it all depends on how the local officers interpret the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's also a story of a Pattaya bar owner being arrested for working by adjusting the volume of the stereo in his bar. I don't think luck comes into it. I think it's more likely that the farangs concerned have seriously upset somebody.

EDIT: Er, brick!

Edited May 7, 2005 by The_Other_Mac

[Totster]

I think you would be extremely unlucky to be arrested for mowing your lawn though... I think like most things it all depends on how the local officers interpret the law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's also a story of a Pattaya bar owner being arrested for working by adjusting the volume of the stereo in his bar. I don't think luck comes into it. I think it's more likely that the farangs concerned have seriously upset somebody.

EDIT: Er, brick!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He he... well done for keeping it on topic...

totster

[Ajarn]

here in australia i am a bricklayer and would say the double brick with 50mm in the larger brick would be the best option as jayenram stated.

also a well insulated roof,also consider the aspect and design of the house.

when i move to thailand full time i want to build my own house i no i will have to contract thai labour,but does anyone no if i can do my own bricklaying would like to build the outside of the house in face brickwork rather than a rendered look,but have seen the thai bricklaying.lol.

as falang cannt work in thailand would building your own home be considered workin? cheers for any advice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can work on your own house all you want in Thailand. The laws are concerned with being employed. As long as you don't accept money for your work you are free to do whatever. You can even work on you neighbor's house as long as you don't accept money.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but money has nothing to do with it. Witness the tsunami volunteers forced to get work permits...

But nobody is going to bother you for working on your own home yourself, I'd venture to say.

And I don't believe for one second that a farang was arrested because they watered their lawn.. Show some proof, please.

Edited May 7, 2005 by Ajarn

[chownah]

Ajarn wrote:

"Sorry, but money has nothing to do with it. Witness the tsunami volunteers forced to get work permits..."

This is very interesting. Can you direct me to some information/news stories about the volunteers needing work permits? or what laws indicated that they needed work permits?

I have always considered employment to mean receiving reimbursement but I guess you could be an employee of a company and not receive reimbursement. Were all of the volunteers who were required to have work permits employed by relief organizations? When the Red Cross/Red Crescent performs disaster relief work some of the volunteers are paid volunteers. Were these the ones who needed work permits? Also, its possible that the gov't issued work permits to unpaid volunteers even though it was not required but just as a way to keep track of the hordes of people who came for that purpose.

Also if you enter the country with the PURPOSE of working and not just being a tourist then it makes sense that you might be required to have a work permit. What I mean here is that a person coming to Thailand to live and wants to do BRICK laying on their own home is not coming to Thailand with the purpose of working so blah blah blah. But if someone applies for a visa to come to Thailand and says "I want to work to help the tsunami victims", then immigration is almost required to think 'work permit' because you have stated that the purpose for your visit to Thailand is "work".

Of course we all know that the way Thai laws are interpreted can change as circumstances change...(ahem).

Thanks for the input, Ajarn.

Chownah

[Totster]

I have always considered employment to mean receiving reimbursement but I guess you could be an employee of a company and not receive reimbursement. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

chownah.... I would like to point out that it is called a work permit, not an employment permit.

totster

[Ajarn]

Google about the law. I've seen it spelled out on some govt sites recently when doing some other research, and I personally know of others, like some ngo's, who were required to get permits for their free labour- giving advice.

Anyway, that's the law, but, TiT, there are also plenty of examples where the law isn't applied it seems, like for do-gooders in orphanges, or teaching English at the wat or, even more common, teaching English to the police...

As others have suggested, it's extremely unlikely you'll have a problem minding your own business here, but when you branch out to minding other's business, the minefield begins. And the road maps aren't always clear and consistent. One thing though, the system here is well-entrenched, and always wins in the end. The best advice, in my experience, is to play by the book as much as possible, and realize the potential consequences of your actions- or non-actions... And ALWAYS be polite with officials.

Nobody is perfect, so consider the amount of exposure on your backside, I believe.

Edited May 7, 2005 by Ajarn

[Boon Mee]

For a full explaination of concrete blocks and everything else to do with construction in Thailand go HERE .

[jayenram]

Just a small additional point. If you are building double skin, you will need wall ties. In my experience out here in the sticks, wall ties are not readily available. You will need to have them made to your own design.

[Jeff1]

Ajarn wrote:

"Sorry, but money has nothing to do with it. Witness the tsunami volunteers forced to get work permits..."

This is very interesting.  Can you direct me to some information/news stories about the volunteers needing work permits?  or what laws indicated that they needed work permits?

I have always considered employment to mean receiving reimbursement but I guess you could be an employee of a company and not receive reimbursement.  Were all of the volunteers who were required to have work permits employed by relief organizations?  When the Red Cross/Red Crescent performs disaster relief work some of the volunteers are paid volunteers.  Were these the ones who needed work permits?  Also, its possible that the gov't issued work permits to unpaid volunteers even though it was not required but just as a way to keep track of the hordes of people who came for that purpose.

Also if you enter the country with the PURPOSE of working and not just being a tourist then it makes sense that you might be required to have a work permit.  What I mean here is that a person coming to Thailand to live and wants to do BRICK laying on their own home is not coming to Thailand with the purpose of working so blah blah blah.  But if someone applies for a visa to come to Thailand and says "I want to work to help the tsunami victims", then immigration is almost required to think 'work permit' because you have stated that the purpose for your visit to Thailand is "work".

Of course we all know that the way Thai laws are interpreted can change as circumstances change...(ahem).

Thanks for the input, Ajarn.

Chownah

I have seen this same story posted HERE ( about the people needing work permits for the disaster ) look it up for yourself .

[chownah]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have seen this same story posted HERE ( about the people needing work permits for the disaster ) look it up for yourself .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jeff1, Thanks for the advice. I did just that and here's what I found:

---------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------

Tsunami volunteers warned: get work permits

PHUKET: Foreign volunteers assisting in tsunami-related charity work are required to hold work permits, regardless of whether they are being paid for their efforts or not.

Sayan Chuaiyjan, head of the Phuket Provincial Employment Service Office [ESO], told the Gazette yesterday that there could be no exceptions and that his office would begin to enforce the regulations soon – possibly in March.

“There can be no exceptions. Work is work, even if it is for charity,” he said.

He urged relief workers to apply for work permits, adding that those working for recognized charitable organizations would find them easy to obtain.

“They can just present a document certified by the charity organization they work for and we will issue them with work permits, then they will be able to work legally,” he said.

He pointed out that any foreigner caught working with out a work permit is liable to hefty punishment.

“If our officers, police officers or immigration police learn [of foreign volunteers] who don’t have work permits, the maximum penalty is three years in jail, a 30,000 baht fine [or both],” he warned.

“We did not enforce this law too rigidly [in the immediate aftermath of the tsunami], because we knew that everyone wanted to help out.

“But now that the situation is returning to normal, we will have to start taking it more seriously,” he said, adding that a crackdown could begin as early as next month.

Phuket Vice-Governor Winai Buapradit, who is charged with overseeing work permit procedures in the province, agreed with the ESO stance and said that the law needed to be enforced both in Phuket and throughout Thailand.

“Now that the post-tsunami relief operations are slowing down, they should have work permits to continue working. Otherwise, government officials will have no idea what they are actually doing here – and this could result in trouble in the future,” he said this morning.

Brought to you by:

The Phuket Gazette

----------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------

I was absolutely wrong in my belief that you had to be reimbursed to be considered employed in Thailand. Since it was the head of the ESO that made the announcement I'm going to try to find my local ESO and directly ask them if I need a work permit to work on my house. I think it will not be required but I could be wrong....obviously. Of course I'll continue to do my personal work as usual regardless of their answer.

Chownah

[thai_norman]

i know of one guy, he was just sitting in his bar when the police come in and asked the cashier who was the manager, the cashier pointed out the farang owner, they then asked to see his work permit, he said he didnt work, they then told him that the cashier had told them he was the manager, catch 22, he ended up giving them a 20,000baht gift

[Bikkel]

Hello everyone,

I heard of a story that a falang started a restaurant with his wife. The falang only showed the customers to the table. The competing restaurant next door tipped off the police and the falang had to leave the country.

To get back to the subject, Thai red stone bricks are sunbaked and not like in Europe baked in a furnace. The structural load bearing capacity of the red bricks is rather disappointing. That's why everyone builds their house with upright concrete beams every 3-4 meters apart. So the walls do only carry their own weight.

A fellow expat build his house in Isaan with a single wall of the superblock bricks of 20x20x? cm glued together, without concrete beams. The floors were made of 6 meter floor panels as featered on the Q-con site, topped of with an extra layer of poured concrete. Wheter or not you need the concrete beams, consult a structural engineer first.

Fact is that your building plans without concrete beams will not be approved by the piyu-baan (head-village).

The superblock bricks are sold under de brand name Ytong in Holland an Belgium. They offer great isolation value.

[Boon Mee]

Just a small additional point. If you are building double skin, you will need wall ties. In my experience out here in the sticks, wall ties are not readily available. You will need to have them made to your own design.

What are "wall ties", Jay?

Do you mean the rebar between the two walls?

[Tornado]

Just a small additional point. If you are building double skin, you will need wall ties. In my experience out here in the sticks, wall ties are not readily available. You will need to have them made to your own design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are "wall ties", Jay?

Do you mean the rebar between the two walls?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wall ties are metal strips of wire that tie the two walls together on a double brick wall.

when you can snatch the pebble.................................

[Boon Mee]

Just a small additional point. If you are building double skin, you will need wall ties. In my experience out here in the sticks, wall ties are not readily available. You will need to have them made to your own design.

What are "wall ties", Jay?

Do you mean the rebar between the two walls?

wall ties are metal strips of wire that tie the two walls together on a double brick wall.

when you can snatch the pebble.................................

Thanks Gent, you're my hero!

[Tornado]

Just a small additional point. If you are building double skin, you will need wall ties. In my experience out here in the sticks, wall ties are not readily available. You will need to have them made to your own design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are "wall ties", Jay?

Do you mean the rebar between the two walls?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wall ties are metal strips of wire that tie the two walls together on a double brick wall.

when you can snatch the pebble.................................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Gent, you're my hero!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know!

[jayenram]

What are "wall ties", Jay?

Do you mean the rebar between the two walls?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another small point. If you are using rebar, have it bent in such a way as it joins the two skins in different courses. It should slope up to the inner skin thereby preventing water travelling from the outer skin to the inner.

A picture is worth a thousand words but unfortunately I ain't got one.

[chownah]

I'm wondering if wall ties are needed. If the wall is non-supporting and if each of the two walls (jayenram called them 'skins') is constructed the same as a single wall then they should both be strong enough to stand on their own and the ties would not be needed. The ties will definitely make the wall stronger and they are cheap so I would probably put them in when constructing a new wall but I'm wondering if they are actually necessary.

[Tornado]

What are "wall ties", Jay?

Do you mean the rebar between the two walls?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another small point. If you are using rebar, have it bent in such a way as it joins the two skins in different courses. It should slope up to the inner skin thereby preventing water travelling from the outer skin to the inner.

A picture is worth a thousand words but unfortunately I ain't got one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

great tip!

[thai_norman]

you can use anything here for wall ties, from rebar to old scrap metal, but as the walls are not load bearing there really is little point, the walls aint gonna move, if the concrete beam work moves then you have real problems and wall ties aint gonna save you, complete waste of time using in beam construction buildings, but hey if your gonna pay for it the builders will put in wot they consider to be ties, but they aint gonna work if the ground beam goes, i got some nice pics of a double wall being built, i shall upload them tonite.

[thai_norman]

heres a nice post about wall ties.

peter warm

AECBmember

Posts: 10

  Re: Xtra wide wall ties

« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2005, 03:29:25 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I would disagree (of course, since I've built two houses with them, and now supply them in this county).  The thermal bridging is difficult to calculate from first principles, as it is a three dimensional problem.

Resorting to standards for calculation such as the EN ISO 6946,  on a 250 cavity, and assuming a minmum of 3/m2 anacon ties at 19by3mm or 5 helifix /m2 at 28mm2 each the method in the standard gives 10-12% extra heat loss, which is equivalent to loosing about 30mm insulation for the helix and 40mm for the anacon.  And of course we are ignoring the extra ties round openings...

Maybe to me it just seems elegant to use a tie that doesnt suck the heat out through all the insulation you've just installed... 

linky linky thingy

[chownah]

heres a nice post about wall ties.

peter warm

AECBmember

Posts: 10

   Re: Xtra wide wall ties

« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2005, 03:29:25 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I would disagree (of course, since I've built two houses with them, and now supply them in this county).  The thermal bridging is difficult to calculate from first principles, as it is a three dimensional problem.

Resorting to standards for calculation such as the EN ISO 6946,  on a 250 cavity, and assuming a minmum of 3/m2 anacon ties at 19by3mm or 5 helifix /m2 at 28mm2 each the method in the standard gives 10-12% extra heat loss, which is equivalent to loosing about 30mm insulation for the helix and 40mm for the anacon.  And of course we are ignoring the extra ties round openings...

Maybe to me it just seems elegant to use a tie that doesnt suck the heat out through all the insulation you've just installed... 

linky linky thingy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For those who would like a translation of this.....The guy is just saying that ties tend to conduct heat through your wall and reduce its insulative qualities. His calculations (which he even says are really simplified and therefore might not be accurate) indicate that if a readily available (in Europe) commercial ties are applied that you will reduce your thermal efficiencey by 10 to 12%. This percent figure should not be taken too literally since his methods are not too accurate by his own admission. The more ties and the thicker the metal in them the more heat will be conducted and the more your insulative ability will diminish. Also, he is a salesman for a wall tie company that is made of plastic and so it doesn't diminish the insulative quality so much.....so he has his own spin to promote here.

[thai_norman]

heres a nice post about wall ties.

peter warm

AECBmember

Posts: 10

   Re: Xtra wide wall ties

« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2005, 03:29:25 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I would disagree (of course, since I've built two houses with them, and now supply them in this county).  The thermal bridging is difficult to calculate from first principles, as it is a three dimensional problem.

Resorting to standards for calculation such as the EN ISO 6946,  on a 250 cavity, and assuming a minmum of 3/m2 anacon ties at 19by3mm or 5 helifix /m2 at 28mm2 each the method in the standard gives 10-12% extra heat loss, which is equivalent to loosing about 30mm insulation for the helix and 40mm for the anacon.  And of course we are ignoring the extra ties round openings...

Maybe to me it just seems elegant to use a tie that doesnt suck the heat out through all the insulation you've just installed... 

linky linky thingy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For those who would like a translation of this.....The guy is just saying that ties tend to conduct heat through your wall and reduce its insulative qualities. His calculations (which he even says are really simplified and therefore might not be accurate) indicate that if a readily available (in Europe) commercial ties are applied that you will reduce your thermal efficiencey by 10 to 12%. This percent figure should not be taken too literally since his methods are not too accurate by his own admission. The more ties and the thicker the metal in them the more heat will be conducted and the more your insulative ability will diminish. Also, he is a salesman for a wall tie company that is made of plastic and so it doesn't diminish the insulative quality so much.....so he has his own spin to promote here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

so he has his own spin to promote here.

erm he is not promoting his stuff here, he is promoting his stuff in europe, i just copied and pasted his post, i really doubt if he could sell ties here in thailand, they just aint needed..

[chownah]

Hello everyone,

I heard of a story that a falang started a restaurant with his wife. The falang only showed the customers to the table. The competing restaurant next door tipped off the police and the falang had to leave the country.

To get back to the subject, Thai red stone bricks are sunbaked and not like in Europe baked in a furnace. The structural load bearing capacity of the red bricks is rather disappointing. That's why everyone builds their house with upright concrete beams every 3-4 meters apart. So the walls do only carry their own weight.

A fellow expat build his house in Isaan with a single wall of the superblock bricks of 20x20x? cm glued together, without concrete beams. The floors were made of 6 meter floor panels as featered on the Q-con site, topped of with an extra layer of poured concrete. Wheter or not you need the concrete beams, consult a structural engineer first.

Fact is that your building plans without concrete beams will not be approved by the piyu-baan (head-village).

The superblock bricks are sold under de brand name Ytong in Holland an Belgium. They offer great isolation value.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bikkel, great to hear that you have knowledge of small red bricks being made in Thailand with only sun baking and not being baked by burning any fuel. Where do you get your information on this. I'm wanting to find a place where they do this since I've never heard of this or seen it except for the making of adobe which I have never seen in Thailand. I'd like to buy a few of these bricks to check them out. I have bought small red bricks before and even seen them being made and these are baked in a kiln using rice hulls as the primary fuel. Please, Please get back to me with this information since if you are right it will be a totally unexpected development in my understanding of ceramics. Oh, and welcome to TV on the occasion of your first post.

[Bikkel]

Thank you for checking my posted reply:

Now in the UK bricks are baked, so then they are extremely strong and can hold up a lot of weight, here unfortuneately those little red things that Thais call bricks are sun baked and these cannot withstand a lot of weight, so generally everything is supported by concrete beams and posts and the bricks are just used for infill, ie making the walls and that sort of thing.Anyway here is a nice picture of beam work.

http://www.thaibuilding.blogspot.com/

Of course you have bricks and bricks.

[thai_norman]

chownah

heres a nice link on bricks

an asian link on bricks

uk bricks are load bearing, asian bricks are not...

[Bikkel]

Maybe I was to generalistic and if I stepped on your toes, oepps sorry.

And I am looking at a bloody beam in the middle of my living room to be.

Edited May 10, 2005 by Bikkel