Spreaders of Conspiracy Theories: Unmasking the Motivations Behind the Lies

[ivygirl]

We are a US family (with two kids, 2 and 4) and think we can sell a 6 month ex-pat stint to the company my husband works for. They need to figure out the specifics of launching their international business -- whether (and where) they should manufacture products in Asia, where they should put offices, salespeople, etc. The sector is renewable energy. The key is to be in a central location where you can not only travel within country, but also to their other targeted countries -- India, Bangladesh, China, possibly Africa as well (though that may be a separate project). Its a medium-sized US company and my husband is one of the senior guys.

I think the short list is Bangkok and Singapore. We've spent a fair amount of time in both, and understand they are VASTLY different cities. I tend to like Bangkok more since Singapore feels more like home (and don't get me started about how much I love the food and people in Thailand). But, either is fine by me. Q: for airport access and availability/cost of flights, ease of doing business, quality/cost of living (particularly since we have kids), and overall experience -- particularly given that it would only be 6 months -- which one would you choose? I imagine Singapore would be vastly "easier" which has more value since we're talking 6 months rather than 2 years, but do you think that would make up for the cost of living differential and other issues? I know I'm asking this on a Bangkok forum, but will post the same on a Singapore forum as well. Interested in any perspectives people are willing to share.

I've been surfing and also haven't found answers on some random cost issues -- international medical insurance, furnished vs. unfurnished homes/apts, general length of lease term (can you get a house in the suburbs for < 1 yr if we wanted to live there) and cost to lease a car for 6 months. Any thoughts on those or should I re-post elsewhere? Sorry I'm a newbie to navigating this site and it's driving my crazy I can't get the search function to work!

[MaeSot]

Try Hong Kong instead. Rents are expensive. But, setting up a business is a breeze, air acess to the rest of Asia is excellent; 2.5 hours to Bangkok, 2 hours to Singapore and China is on your doorstop. Plus the infrastructure is world class, brodband Internet across the entire city, 3G cellular service, plenty of international schools. And low corporate and personal tax rate.

Plus, its a nice mix of Asian and western cultures, exotic without being overwhelming.

That said, I like Thailand for the people.

[Nio]

I have lived in both and chose Thailand to base my own business

Singapore is cleaner, more modern, easy to get around

However, the cost of living for everything is outrageous. The cost of a beer is between US $10 to $12 each

2 people eating burgers at Hard Rock Cafe can set you back US $50 easy

Singapore has a nice zoo, Sentosa Island, Opera House etc

However for me, the cost of living and living in such a small country area gets boring fast

Either airport will get you easy access to all the countries your HB needs to visit

I travel to those countries myself from Thailand

Thailand offers a much lower cost of living, more country area means more things to see

Beaches, temples, mountains Thailand as it all

Thailand people are more friendly as Singaporeans walk with their heads down and dont ever make contact with the world

In Thailand you should find an read outside of Bangkok like Rangsit/Thanyaburi which is where Dreamworld is located

Lots of canals and much greener than Bangkok

Downtown Bangkok/Sukumvit or Silom area is no place for kids

Thailand is definitely the better experience and your money would go 10 times further

However if you want a modern, clean, crime free place, Singapore is it

One other main issue is although both have BTS trains to get around the city, there are many times in Singapore it is impossible to get a taxi

Unlike Thailand where you can get a taxi every 20 seconds

If you rent a stand alone house in Thailand versus an apartment in Singapore (for 1/10) of the cost for the house, your kids would be much better off

If you need any more info PM me

[OriginalPoster]

If you are talking about an expat package for a company that has set policies about what they will pay in each country, one thing to consider is that some companies pay a "cost of living" adjustment to expats in Singapore that they may not get in other countries in the region. In my case, the company was going to pay actual rent & utilities & car in either Singapore or Bangkok but would pay a cost of living adjustment for people based in Singapore on top of the rent/utilities/car. For people whose expenses consist primarily of rent, utilities, and car (which described my situation), the cost of living adjustment can tip the economic balance towards the more expensive country.

Edited January 14, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[jazzbo]

The sector is renewable energy. That is a pretty broad term. Without knowing the source of the 'renewables' -- solar, bio-fuel, hydrogen-based, algae, geothermal, etc. -- it is difficult to answer "whether (and where) they should manufacture products in Asia", who would be your major market(s), and in which city your HQ should be located.

[ivygirl]

I have lived in both and chose Thailand to base my own business

Singapore is cleaner, more modern, easy to get around

However, the cost of living for everything is outrageous. The cost of a beer is between US $10 to $12 each

2 people eating burgers at Hard Rock Cafe can set you back US $50 easy

Singapore has a nice zoo, Sentosa Island, Opera House etc

However for me, the cost of living and living in such a small country area gets boring fast

Either airport will get you easy access to all the countries your HB needs to visit

I travel to those countries myself from Thailand

Thailand offers a much lower cost of living, more country area means more things to see

Beaches, temples, mountains Thailand as it all

Thailand people are more friendly as Singaporeans walk with their heads down and dont ever make contact with the world

In Thailand you should find an read outside of Bangkok like Rangsit/Thanyaburi which is where Dreamworld is located

Lots of canals and much greener than Bangkok

Downtown Bangkok/Sukumvit or Silom area is no place for kids

Thailand is definitely the better experience and your money would go 10 times further

However if you want a modern, clean, crime free place, Singapore is it

One other main issue is although both have BTS trains to get around the city, there are many times in Singapore it is impossible to get a taxi

Unlike Thailand where you can get a taxi every 20 seconds

If you rent a stand alone house in Thailand versus an apartment in Singapore (for 1/10) of the cost for the house, your kids would be much better off

If you need any more info PM me

THanks so much for the reply. Your perspective kind of validates my own. I know there would be chaos to deal with in Bangkok, but we're pretty seasoned travellers and don't think we'd need to be coddled as much as your typical westerners. That being said, I want my kids to have the best experience possible and I feel like we'd see and do so much more in Thailand.

[ivygirl]

The sector is renewable energy. That is a pretty broad term. Without knowing the source of the 'renewables' -- solar, bio-fuel, hydrogen-based, algae, geothermal, etc. -- it is difficult to answer "whether (and where) they should manufacture products in Asia", who would be your major market(s), and in which city your HQ should be located.

It's solar. And yes, those are very big questions...hence the need for 6 months somewhere in Asia to figure it all out!

[ivygirl]

If you are talking about an expat package for a company that has set policies about what they will pay in each country, one thing to consider is that some companies pay a "cost of living" adjustment to expats in Singapore that they may not get in other countries in the region. In my case, the company was going to pay actual rent & utilities & car in either Singapore or Bangkok but would pay a cost of living adjustment for people based in Singapore on top of the rent/utilities/car. For people whose expenses consist primarily of rent, utilities, and car (which described my situation), the cost of living adjustment can tip the economic balance towards the more expensive country.

Excellent point. I see if the expat package is an established phenomenon at a company the balance could tip towards the more expensive country. This company has never sent someone overseas, and I fear there could be sticker shock with Singapore. But who knows, maybe they would retain a firm (I wonder what sort of firms do this sort of thing) to sort it out to create an "apples to apples" type package.

[OriginalPoster]

If you are talking about an expat package for a company that has set policies about what they will pay in each country, one thing to consider is that some companies pay a "cost of living" adjustment to expats in Singapore that they may not get in other countries in the region. In my case, the company was going to pay actual rent & utilities & car in either Singapore or Bangkok but would pay a cost of living adjustment for people based in Singapore on top of the rent/utilities/car. For people whose expenses consist primarily of rent, utilities, and car (which described my situation), the cost of living adjustment can tip the economic balance towards the more expensive country.

Excellent point. I see if the expat package is an established phenomenon at a company the balance could tip towards the more expensive country. This company has never sent someone overseas, and I fear there could be sticker shock with Singapore. But who knows, maybe they would retain a firm (I wonder what sort of firms do this sort of thing) to sort it out to create an "apples to apples" type package.

Your're correct that it's possible for a company to outsource administration of expat plans. Cendant is one company that takes on that type of work, I'm sure that there are others. For bigger companies, Cendant usually just implements whatever policies their client dictates to them but they may consult on what they policies ought to be as well.

You're probably correct too about the potential for sticker shock in Singapore. Often when a single person is sent over on a full expat package the total costs (including salary) are two to three times the cost of having that employee remain in the US. Add a spouse and kids into the mix and costs go up from there. Probably even Bangkok's going to be pretty expensive for the company too though.

Edited January 15, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[Luke06]

I think to some extent where you are from in the US will make a difference - temperature or weather/built up area/ease of access to open areas etc..

Then there are the legal issues - visas, complexity of establishing a business and getting work permit and dependent visas.

The former without knowing I could not recommend one, but for the latter Singapore is a winner hands down.

Ease of travel - they are both good hubs, but Thailand would win for costs.

Leasing house & car - Obviously Thailand is cheaper and one year is the norm for Thailand (house/condo) but most will negotiate or there are always serviced apartments so I don't think it would be an issue for you either way.

[MJo]

Sure there is personal preferences with both of the places and Singapore is much more expensive for accommodation and car which should not matter in expat contract. Actually you don't need a car in Singapore as the public transport is one of the best in the world and taxis are part of it. Cheap and always available. Granted there might be 15 minutes wait during peak hours if it is raining. But they are safe, reliable and can be ordered to your house by a simple sms or "speed dial" from your phone. Everything works and is painless unlike in Bangkok where you have to plan 12 hours ahead due the traffic etc etc.

Anyways, the decision should and most likely is based on which location will benefit the company more. And Singapore wins hands down.

Ease of setting up and running a business, company, branch, rep office in Singapore is better than in US. Setting everything up will take few days. In Thailand again it is extremely difficult, doubt it will take more than 6 months just to set up a local entity and get fully operational.

Same applies to cost of setting up and running a business. Minimum registered capital etc etc issues.

Same applies to visas, work permits etc to your husband and you as family member.

Business being "green" solar energy Singapore is the place where it is all happening. Maybe something in HK and China but if you choose Bangkok you might find out sooner or later that your husband spends most of his time in Singapore anyways as this is where all his potential customers, partners etc are.

I could go on and on but for bit more easy to read info from business point of view check out doingbusiness dot com in the web. World bank ranking and report comparing countries on ease of setting up and operating business.

Personally i chose Bangkok to live in and work in Singapore

[Moonfruit]

All great and valuable comments from those guys above!

Personally speaking, travelling through both Changi and Suvarnabhumi airports every week, i love the Changi experience, and loathe that of BKK. Going in or out of Changi takes less than 5 minutes. In BKK can take an hour at passport control. This is a huge point to consider if your hubby will be travelling a lot.

For family life, Singapore wins hands down. We moved to Singapore from BKK for that exact reason. Your kids cannot play outside on their bikes in BKK. They can basically do nothing at all as a kid, unless you like somewhere in the suburbs as mentioned above. But that means a commute which could take you 30 mins to town or 3 hours. More in the rainy season.

Ive lived in Thailand for 8 years, and as mentioned above moved to SG about 6 months ago for the family. I love Thailand for its uniqueness, and for sure it's more interesting, but as time goes on, i find myself trying to come up with reasons to keep coming here.

And as a little snippet, in BKK, i never feel like a foreigner. But head out of the Orchard, East Coast, Novena expat belt in Singapore, and you will sure feel much more foreign than you do in BKK. I do anyway, being the only white guy in the 'heartland' malls.

[Soutpeel]

Having worked between both cities and live in Thailand, for a short 6 month stint, I personally would recommend Singapore, it will be much easier to hit the ground running, granted more expensive to live but as you are trying to get a business moving, You dont really want all the "administrative" hassles you will have in Thailand, your hubby will need to focus on the job a hand with out distractions...Singapore this can be done pretty easy, Thailand not so easy.

Also Singapore generally will be more "open" to the intended business

[ivygirl]

I am so grateful for all these replies, particularly for the honesty on a Bangkok forum. The perspective of people who have lived and worked in both is invaluable. I admit after all this advice I am leaning towards Singapore since it would be a fairly short stay in the region and much easier to do business, etc. in Singapore. But of course I am trying to figure out the best way to get us all up to Thailand often! Any suggestions (other than flying) are welcome.

In any case, thanks again everybody.

[Moonfruit]

The great thing about this part of the world is the easy accessibility of so many different cultures and people.

Take a train trip from Singapore to Bangkok! Sure beats flying if you have a few days to spare!

[ivygirl]

Probably easier with kids, too I suspect. Thanks!

[walf]

at least my answer

i had a company i8n malaysai and i make the mistake to set up a company in thailand

thailand is worst for business

even the crazy malaysia is more easy and same as singapore

no [problem by visa

no problem for residencial card

in malaysia 2 year gold card

and in singapore PR after 3 month

in thailand

a long way to get the 3 month NON B visa and a crazy way to get aditional month or 11 month after 1 month non B if u have luck and get the WP withing 3 month ( Samut prakarn)

the first WP i got for 10 days !!!!!!

this business in thai ??? hmmm dont ask

renewa energy ??? may eb the thai dont know what this is

they start to fight against the plasticbag in the sea/.... we have done this in austria 20 years ago

thailand ... bangkok busy and dirty but good if u have childs

but singapore cost more abut is better and quiet save

if u start to have production

open factory in johor bahru in malaysia

and live in singapore.....

over the bridge....

[tachaw]

I am a Singaporean and have lived and owned a factory in Thailand for the past 5 years. Enough has been said about the other intangibles so I shall not go into that. Looking at your situation and 6 months window, Singapore is definitely the place. Forget about Thailand, especially given your short stay and the need to hit the ground running for your hubby. Thailand is a nightmare for getting work permits. If getting the business objectives met within the 6-month window is the top criteria, Singapore wins hands down. Good luck!

[ivygirl]

Thanks so much for the feedback. Bummer that it sounds like Thailand would be a nightmare (probably moreso since we're now thinking 3 months instead). Singapore does sound like a breeze to do the things he needs to do, guess I better do some more posting in their expat pages. Thanks everybody!

[OxfordWill]

I assume your business practices have to be legitimate and paper trailed and legal etc?

If so, and even if not- *avoid bangkok at all costs* unless you already have experience of running a business here.

Edited January 25, 2010 by OxfordWill

[ivygirl]

Absolutely! I had assumed Singapore is much more "above board" than Bangkok, yes? Anyone know if Malaysia is closer to Bangkok than Singapore in that respect (and should we also be considering Kuala Lumpur...never been).

[Hirsch]

No doubt that Singapore is the winner here and the best choice for you, your family and your company!

Check with the Singapore Government if they would come up with any kind incentives if your company would set up a subsidiary over there. Singapore is very keen to get high tech companies into the country and if they believe that your company / products etc. is good for the country and their reputation they can be quite generous with incentives in taxes etc. Good luck!!!

[OxfordWill]

14 or 15% corp tax straight, 7% personal income tax? Or the other way around? And employees tax is put into a savings account (government) for all singapore citizens.. lots of other goodies for business there. Do look into it!

[tachaw]

I forgot to add that the Singapore govt is giving out lots of incentives for 'green' business startups. I can point you to a consultant who can advise your husband on the various incentives. If the production plant is high-tech enough and has high value added, forget about going to Thailand or M'sia to set up the plants there cos its going to be a nightmare with the 'under-table' practices to get things moving.

Singapore may be expensive but if you are talking about really high tech industries the intangible pluses outweigh the negatives.