Best Thai↔english Dictionary

[joorakee]

Which Thai↔English dictionary(ies) do you recommend for:

1. advanced learners,

2. translators?

As far as a Thai↔Thai dictionary is concerned, I have been using "Matichon Dictionary of the Thai Language" (พจนานุกรมฉบับมติชน), but I haven't got a big Thai↔English dictionary - only a small one good for beginners and intermediate learners (besides a Japanese →Thai dictionary, also not very big).

So any recommendations are welcome.

[Colabamumbai]

I am in Toronto coming to Thailand next week. Not one bookstore here has a English Thai dictionary. Not Chapters or any big chains or any small stores. Hard to believe. They have only a pocket reference. Even the Thai consulate here is aware of the lack of stores selling the dictionary. Where can I buy a good one in Bangkok?

[hiero]

i just use online ones.

[Tilokarat]

The dictionary used in Universities is by Mary Haas. It was around $80 in the mid'80s.

You can go to thaisocietyofontario.com and see what they recommend, and have available. They teach courses in the Thai language just north of Dundas Street West, on Spadina Avenue going towards College Street.

I am in Toronto too. It is nice to see the temperature hit a balmy +3 degrees today!

Oh, the World's Biggest Store often carries English-Thai dictionaries for beginners with tapes included.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Tilokarat

[DavidHouston]

Tilokarat,

What is the publication date on the Mary Haas dictionary? Has it been updated recently? Thanks.

The dictionary used in Universities is by Mary Haas. It was around $80 in the mid'80s.

You can go to thaisocietyofontario.com and see what they recommend, and have available. They teach courses in the Thai language just north of Dundas Street West, on Spadina Avenue going towards College Street.

I am in Toronto too. It is nice to see the temperature hit a balmy +3 degrees today!

Oh, the World's Biggest Store often carries English-Thai dictionaries for beginners with tapes included.

[SantiSuk]

I am in Toronto coming to Thailand next week. Not one bookstore here has a English Thai dictionary. Not Chapters or any big chains or any small stores. Hard to believe. They have only a pocket reference. Even the Thai consulate here is aware of the lack of stores selling the dictionary. Where can I buy a good one in Bangkok?

In my experience all bookstores, and most large supermarkets have a bookstore.

The small, but not quite pocket sized, Dictionary by Benjamin Poomsan Becker with three sections English to Thai (script and transliteration), transliteration of Thai into english, and Thai (script) to English is a useful buy for your purposes - the Op is a step well above it though. It has taken me from absolute beginner to moderate speaker and Thai girlfriends seem to be able to use it in reverse. The first one, bought in the UK, cost me about £10 ($US 16) from Amazon. Its replacement (stolen by a Thai!) cost 425 baht (US$ 14) in Bangkok.

On the other hand if this is your first and possibly only visit then go for any of the cheaper small genuinely pocket-sized versions with a section on Thai phrases.

[AyG]

For Thai/English I mostly use Lexitron - a free, downloadable dictionary for Microsoft Windows. (I did eventually make it run under Linux, but that requires a bit of work.) The software is decidedly buggy, but it's very comprehensive.

For a Thai to English (only) dictionary, my favourite is the "New Age Thai-English Dictionary" by Wong Wattanaphichet. 1000 Baht. Its pronunciation guide is a bit weird - it doesn't give vowel length. However, if you read Thai at this level you don't really need it.

The Se-Ed dictionary is pretty useless, apart from good lists of animals and plants in the back.

The Benjamin Poomsan Becker dictionaries (there are two - the new one is more comprehensive) are really only suitable for beginners who don't read Thai.

[kokesaat]

I second that recommendation on the New Age dictionary. 999 pages and it's available from Chulabooks for a mere 332 Baht (chulabooks.com search for barcode 9789749410752). I've ordered from their website on several occasions. Cheap prices and always get the books within a week or so.

[farangkeenok]

www.thai-language.com the best one online I think, including pronouncuation option

BR

Edited January 15, 2010 by farangkeenok

[Tilokarat]

Yikes, it seems that the good lady died in 1964, and that is the last date of publication I could find through google, although I did not do a complete search.

[Rikker]

Mary Haas (1910-1996) published her Thai-English Student's Dictionary in 1964. Later in her life she focused more on Native American languages, and died without completing a planned unabridged Thai-English dictionary.

The Haas dictionary is still in print and usually costs around US$60, but the U.S. Dept. of Education, which funded it, gave permission to put it online as part of the SEALang Library project (thai.sealang.net). There it is augmented with entries from the free Lexitron Dictionary, which though far from perfect at least helps bridge the nearly 40-year vocabulary gap. I still love the Haas dictionary, and think it's certainly the best for its time, just as McFarland's 1939 Thai-English was the best before hers.

[Ericx25]

The Benjamin Poomsan Becker dictionaries (there are two - the new one is more comprehensive) are really only suitable for beginners who don't read Thai.

I totally disagree. If you can read thai (I do) then just don't pay attention to the transliteration.

I recommend the new version which is waaayyyy better than the old one.

It is still a pocket book although a little bit thicker than the previous version.

It is now 14 X 11 X 3.5 Cms

I have the first version and I also bought the new one because

- for each thai word it now gives you the qualifier to use for plurial (when it applies of course)

- because of the size of the letters (way bigger in the new version)

- because it is so much easier to find a word (the index is repeated on the edge of each page)

- section 3 (thai sound) is located at the end and is a lot smaller because it now only refers to a page number in section 2 (thai-english dictionnary)

- the grammar section is also better organized and a little bit more comprehensive

Make your own opinion by looking at the sample pages : http://www.paiboonpublishing.com/details.php?prodId=68

I HIGHLY recommend this dictionary

Eric

Edited January 17, 2010 by Rikker

[farangnahrak]

For experts I'd recommend 'A Junior Thai-English Dictionary' by Tianchai Iamworamate.

Its 14500 words that fits comfortably in a small pocket. Big dictionaries are too annoying to carry around, and for home I'd rather a digital dictionary.

[DavidHouston]

Mary Haas (1910-1996) published her Thai-English Student's Dictionary in 1964. Later in her life she focused more on Native American languages, and died without completing a planned unabridged Thai-English dictionary.

The Haas dictionary is still in print and usually costs around US$60, but the U.S. Dept. of Education, which funded it, gave permission to put it online as part of the SEALang Library project (thai.sealang.net). There it is augmented with entries from the free Lexitron Dictionary, which though far from perfect at least helps bridge the nearly 40-year vocabulary gap. I still love the Haas dictionary, and think it's certainly the best for its time, just as McFarland's 1939 Thai-English was the best before hers.

Rikker,

Is SEALang planning to integrate an English version of the RID "Dictionary of New Words" into its database?

[Colabamumbai]

The dictionary used in Universities is by Mary Haas. It was around $80 in the mid'80s.

You can go to thaisocietyofontario.com and see what they recommend, and have available. They teach courses in the Thai language just north of Dundas Street West, on Spadina Avenue going towards College Street.

I am in Toronto too. It is nice to see the temperature hit a balmy +3 degrees today!

Oh, the World's Biggest Store often carries English-Thai dictionaries for beginners with tapes included.

Thanks now. The large stores have nothing only online ordering.Been to all of them, depart Tuesday for LOS will get one there. Yes nice weather eh, nice to hear from you in T.O. Thanks again now.

[SoftWater]

I'm not sure if the double arrow in 'Thai<--->English means you're also interested in English-->Thai, but if so there is only one dictionary worth having, and that's the Oxford River English-->Thai.

It might put you off when you first see the price tag - 1000B-., but you'll soon realise it's worth twice the price once you start using it (and in fact, at 1000 pages, it works out at just 1B-./page). Like the 'Oxford English Dictionary', this one is a comprehensive authority by which all others can only be compared.

Check the reviews on amazon here

Edited January 17, 2010 by SoftWater

[Colabamumbai]

Mary Haas (1910-1996) published her Thai-English Student's Dictionary in 1964. Later in her life she focused more on Native American languages, and died without completing a planned unabridged Thai-English dictionary.

The Haas dictionary is still in print and usually costs around US$60, but the U.S. Dept. of Education, which funded it, gave permission to put it online as part of the SEALang Library project (thai.sealang.net). There it is augmented with entries from the free Lexitron Dictionary, which though far from perfect at least helps bridge the nearly 40-year vocabulary gap. I still love the Haas dictionary, and think it's certainly the best for its time, just as McFarland's 1939 Thai-English was the best before hers.

Rikker,

Is SEALang planning to integrate an English version of the RID "Dictionary of New Words" into its database?

Thanks for your help David.

[DavidHouston]

I'm not sure if the double arrow in 'Thai<--->English means you're also interested in English-->Thai, but if so there is only one dictionary worth having, and that's the Oxford River English-->Thai.

It might put you off when you first see the price tag - 1000B-., but you'll soon realise it's worth twice the price once you start using it (and in fact, at 1000 pages, it works out at just 1B-./page). Like the 'Oxford English Dictionary', this one is a comprehensive authority by which all others can only be compared.

Check the reviews on amazon here

Softwater,

I am not familiar with this dictionary but I want to ask you if there is a Thai --> English version. I notice that the "New Model English - Thai Desk Dictionary" by So Sethaputra is also uni-directional, even though the granddaddy S. Sethaputra was a Thai --> English tome. Why do you think that the authors have not converted to a bi-directional work, especially given modern database tools?

Thanks.

[SoftWater]

Hi David, I have long looked for an authoritatively equivalent Thai --> English dictionary without success. I do notice from the reviews on Amazon of the Oxford text that it is used in the Besta electronic dictionary, 'Cyberdict 10', which also has a reverse look-up facility. I am not aware of any plans by Oxford to make the print version bi-directional. Maybe there's not a significant enough market for it?

Currently I use about four different print Thai-English dictionaries of varying age, an old Thai-Thai one, the usual online suspects, and a pre-installed Mac' dictionary on my computer which is a combo of Lexitron, Hope Studio, and Nontri dictionaries (its drawback being it is not user-modifiable, so you can neither add your own entries nor take advantage of updates on the original online versions).

Between the lot I manage to get by, but as you know, I more often than not have to rely on your good self and other forum members to fill in the gaps!

Edited January 17, 2010 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

Rikker,

Is SEALang planning to integrate an English version of the RID "Dictionary of New Words" into its database?

At the moment SEAlang doesn't actually produce new lexicographic work, it digitizes and makes available the existing work of other scholars and provides tools for organizing and searching that data. And as no English version of that book exists, the answer would have to be no.

Besides, the Royal Institute's New Words series is a hodgepodge, nowhere approaching comprehensive, so even if one were so inclined to create an English version, it's hardly worth the headaches that would be involved in trying to get permission. The organization is very bureaucratic. Wheels within wheels.

Back on topic:

My favorite pocket Thai-English dictionary is So Sethaputra. It's published by Prima Publishing these days (formerly by Thai Wattana Panich), available for 75 baht at most Thai bookstores. I have bought it many times, because I keep wearing it out or giving them away. It suffers from the same drawback as Haas, though -- it was first published decades ago and hasn't been updated in a while. So Sethaputra died in the 80s.

[joorakee]

I'm not sure if the double arrow in 'Thai<--->English means you're also interested in English-->Thai

Yes, I am.

, but if so there is only one dictionary worth having, and that's the Oxford River English-->Thai.

It might put you off when you first see the price tag - 1000B-., but you'll soon realise it's worth twice the price once you start using it (and in fact, at 1000 pages, it works out at just 1B-./page). Like the 'Oxford English Dictionary', this one is a comprehensive authority by which all others can only be compared.

Check the reviews on amazon here

Thanks for all the answers.

I will also look for this one. I use its Japanese counterpart and I'm glad with it.

[SoftWater]

The Oxford-Duden picture dictionary is good - I don't have it, but its in the library at my work. However, the Oxford River is a different kettle of fish. It doesn't just tell you what words mean, but gives you thousands of colloquial expressions and examples-in-use. It's particular strength is giving you functional Thai equivalents rather than just literal ones for English collocations, phrases, and idioms. I have found these enormously useful.

Edited January 18, 2010 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

I have more mixed opinions of both Oxford Riverbooks English-Thai and Oxford Duden Picture Dictionary. Both are translations from English. That is, the publishing companies behind them have a common list of English words and phrases that they then hire teams of scholars to translate into different languages. That's an artificial way to create a dictionary, because it "forces" Thai to have equivalents to the entire set of English terms.

If the collective "English experience" is one circle on a Venn diagram, and the "Thai experience" is another circle, then the two certainly have a lot of overlap. A dictionary like Oxford Riverbooks can do a good job of covering that overlap, but it also ends up with a lot of wordy and inauthentic entries for concepts and phrases that are in the English sphere but do not overlap with the Thai sphere. And little effort is made to cover any part of the Thai sphere that does not overlap.

My experience with Oxford Riverbooks is that it's quite good when it's good, but it's hit and miss. I really like the layout and typesetting, though. Well done.

Similarly, my experience with Oxford Duden is that it's not nearly as useful as it looks. It's mostly endless diagrams of esoteria that one will virtually never find useful or even want to know. And the same criticism as above holds true -- so much of it is irrelevant to Thai society and has no real equivalent term in Thai. But that doesn't stop the translation team from giving one, which misleads the reader into thinking that a native speaker will actually understand the term. But if you find yourself in the mood to talk to your Thai friends about the names for the individual component parts of a combine wheat harvester, then you might want to pick up a copy. (That's a bit of an exaggeration, but as you can tell I don't exactly highly recommend Oxford Duden.)

[SoftWater]

That is, the publishing companies behind them have a common list of English words and phrases that they then hire teams of scholars to translate into different languages. That's an artificial way to create a dictionary, because it "forces" Thai to have equivalents to the entire set of English terms.

That's because it's an English-->Thai dictionary. What do you expect?

A dictionary like Oxford Riverbooks can do a good job of covering that overlap, but it also ends up with a lot of wordy and inauthentic entries for concepts and phrases that are in the English sphere but do not overlap with the Thai sphere.

And yet that might be precisely what a translator needs, particularly if you are translating technical documents, product manuals, user guides, etc. I'd also wager that given the sheer number of entries, the 'inauthentic' ones are massively outweighed by the huge number of useful entries you won't find elsewhere. Another thing that makes this work special is the great number of native Thai and bilingual contributors that have worked on it, literally dozens. If you know of a more complete and more thoroughly peer-reviewed work than this one, do let us know.

And little effort is made to cover any part of the Thai sphere that does not overlap.

That's because it's not a Thai-->English dictionary. Given which, it could not possibly meet such a demand, nor is it intended to.

Similarly, my experience with Oxford Duden is that it's not nearly as useful as it looks. It's mostly endless diagrams of esoteria that one will virtually never find useful or even want to know.

Yes, but if you have a penchant for DIY, mechanics or are involved in engineering or other technical fields its pretty useful. If youwant to know what a centre-punch is called, its about the only way you're going to find out, and certainly the easiest.

Edited January 18, 2010 by SoftWater

[Rikker]

That's because it's an English-->Thai dictionary. What do you expect?

Dictionaries exist for different audiences, so in both creating dictionaries and choosing them to use, one must be conscious of the intended audience. For example, an English-Thai dictionary might have the following entry for dog:

dog n. หมา, สุนัข

Or it might have this entry for dog:

dog n. สัตว์เลี้ยงลูกด้วยนมในวงศ์ Canidae

Both are English > Thai, but one gives an equivalent and another gives an explanation. One is useful for someone who wants to *use* the word (most often native speakers of the source language), the other is useful for one who wants to know *about* the word (most often native speakers of the target language).

In a case like "dog" it's rather obvious which is which, but the core problem with a dictionary approach like Oxford Riverbooks' is that it mixes the two indiscriminately and ends up a jack of all trades and master of none. I'm not saying it's not useful, but it requires the reader to use discretion, even suspicion, in judging whether the term found under word X is actually used by natives, or whether it's more of an explanation in that language, and native speakers would have no idea what he was talking about if he tried to go and use it.

Since there's a thread right now about deja vu, let's take the Oxford Riverbooks entry for deja vu as an example:

deja vu n. ความรู้สึกว่าเหตุการณ์ปัจจุบันเคยเกิดขึ้นแล้ว

It takes a somewhat advanced Thai learner to ascertain that this is an explanation, not an equivalent term. Note that they don't give the Thai equivalent (insofar as one exists), which is simply เดจาวู. This isn't to say that all, or even most, Thais know the term, but those that do would use เดจาวู. So in this case while the dictionary would help someone who didn't know what "deja vu" meant in English, the dictionary proves helpful, but doesn't prove directly helpful for someone like you or me.

As for what I expect from an English > Thai dictionary, the academically sound way of creating a dictionary to build a corpus based on native speech, native books, newspapers, government documents, public speeches, etc. Then you work with native speakers to enable you to translate those things. Then you can organize it by English entries, if so desired. This will produce a work that covers the native sphere of experience, but doesn't cover the non-overlapping English sphere. This produces a dictionary for a different audience, and would be useful to someone trying to learn more about the language in its own terms, but not someone trying to find native equivalents to Western concepts (like deja vu). Again, it's all about the intended audience. I just feel like Oxford Riverbooks doesn't do a great job of knowing its intended audience.

And yet that might be precisely what a translator needs, particularly if you are translating technical documents, product manuals, user guides, etc. I'd also wager that given the sheer number of entries, the 'inauthentic' ones are massively outweighed by the huge number of useful entries you won't find elsewhere. Another thing that makes this work special is the great number of native Thai and bilingual contributors that have worked on it, literally dozens. If you know of a more complete and more thoroughly peer-reviewed work than this one, do let us know.

This is a general work, which means that its coverage for very specific technical fields is still going to be limited. For any given technical area, other sources -- for example, the thousands of bilingual equivalent terms published by academic bodies, or by the Royal Institute -- will be both more complete and more trustworthy.

Oxford Riverbooks is a commercial work, and it's certainly not peer reviewed in the academic sense. Having lots of contributors is not the same thing as peer review. It just means they farmed out the work in small chunks.

That's because it's not a Thai-->English dictionary. Given which, it could not possibly meet such a demand, nor is it intended to.

Plenty of Thai concepts have English equivalents, even if they're not mainstream English. For example, Buddhist concepts, aspects of the governmental system, you name it. Oxford Riverbooks does not, for example, have an entry for "sufficiency economy". If you're reading the Bangkok Post, or perhaps an English book by Chris Baker or whoever, and you come across English terms that clearly have important Thai equivalents, wouldn't you expect a good English > Thai dictionary to have entries for these things? This is the kind of sociocultural gap you get when you start from a standard English list of words and phrases and translate those.

Yes, but if you have a penchant for DIY, mechanics or are involved in engineering or other technical fields its pretty useful. If youwant to know what a centre-punch is called, its about the only way you're going to find out, and certainly the easiest.

It's useful if the entries are actually correct and can be trusted. Having spent a significant amount of time with Oxford Duden, there is just a lot of stuff in there with no true Thai equivalent, so the authors basically made one up, or gave an imprecise equivalent. So again, useful where it is correct, and insofar as one wants to know the minutiae of a particular object, but not entirely trustworthy. So one must use discretion.

I own both of these, and certainly think they're worth having for the dedicated student. Just know why and by whom they were written, and for what audience and purpose. Then one can properly judge the reliability of particular entries. That's all.

[SoftWater]

I own both of these, and certainly think they're worth having for the dedicated student. Just know why and by whom they were written, and for what audience and purpose. Then one can properly judge the reliability of particular entries. That's all.

Clearly we have different expectations and experience of this book, and there's no right nor wrong about it. However, a few clarifications.

1. Who is it aimed at? There's no confusion, read the inside cover.

Primarily they're selling this to Thais (that's where the market is) that want a dictionary (to quote the book itself) that

"captures the idiomatic, colloquial, spoken and written character of English'.

While I'm never a fan of sales spin, I think that and the following quote (also from the inside cover) answer both your points about 'the English/Thai sphere' and the reason why many entries give explanations not synonyms:

'It is a dynamic passport to the English language for native Thai speakers'.

The secondary audience is 'advanced learners of Thai' (let's read that as 'intermediate')- well, you have to be advanced enough to be able to read Thai, as there's no English or karaoke Thai, but the claim that anyone that can read Thai couldn't understand that

deja vu n. ความรู้สึกว่าเหตุการณ์ปัจจุบันเคยเกิดขึ้นแล้ว

is an explanation and not a synonymous expression strikes me as, well sorry to be blunt, but just plain silly. If you can read it well enough to understand it, then you can understand what kind of a definition it is.

2. 'Sufficiency economy'

I'll grant that เศรษฐกิจพอเพียง is probably an oversight, but the point remains that the book's aim is not to translate Thai into English, but to give functional equivalents and explanations of English in Thai. 'Sufficiency economy' is an English equivalent for a Thai concept unknown outside of Thailand. Equally, I've yet to meet a Thai that speaks anything beyond upper-beginner level that doesn't know this Thai-made English expression.

3. Peer-reveiwed or not?

Perhaps that was poor word choice on my part. What I was aiming at is the fact that there's nearly 50 translators and about 15 editors responsible for compilation and accuracy. The point remains: I don't know of any other Thai dictionary - and I bet you don't either - that covers so much of the English language or has as many contributions from both English and Thai scholars.

It may not please someone at your level, but I have found the book immensely valuable in learning new words, new patterns and functional equivalents and I hold by my original recommendation to others. The sheer number of English patterns explained in Thai serve not only to help you learn new ways of saying things in Thai but also give the incidental benefit of helping you to understand the structure of Thai sentences and phrases through copious authentic examples explaining English concepts in Thai for Thai readers.

Yes, you need to use some discretion when using it as far as synonyms go - you have to bring your own learning and experience to bear - but that's true of any dictionary or thesaurus (which is why machine translators don't work). For people at or around my level, this book is invaluable. At your level maybe less so, but I'd hazard most people on this forum are nearer my level than yours

[Rikker]

Okay, okay, I shan't besmirch your beloved's honor any further. Let's just say I expect a lot out of a dictionary.

[mangkorn]

One desk dictionary which never gets mentioned in this kind of thread is "A New Thai-English Dictionary," by Tianchai Iamworamate.

A large hardcover that clocks in at over 1,200 pages, it contains many very good contemporary example sentences for nuanced usages of each entry. At a price of only 760 baht, it's a gift.

The oft-lauded Domnern/Sathienphong dictionary (which I also laud) has one fatal flaw: no pronunciation guides for the entries. Since even Thai people have two distinct, acceptable pronunciations for some words, particularly Indic ones (e.g., ประวัติศาสตร์), it seems to me that every dictionary should try to show pronunciation.

Ideally, some explanation and/or commonly preferred option would be best, but even the RID doesn't do that...

[DavidHouston]

One desk dictionary which never gets mentioned in this kind of thread is "A New Thai-English Dictionary," by Tianchai Iamworamate.

A large hardcover that clocks in at over 1,200 pages, it contains many very good contemporary example sentences for nuanced usages of each entry. At a price of only 760 baht, it's a gift.

The oft-lauded Domnern/Sathienphong dictionary (which I also laud) has one fatal flaw: no pronunciation guides for the entries. Since even Thai people have two distinct, acceptable pronunciations for some words, particularly Indic ones (e.g., ประวัติศาสตร์), it seems to me that every dictionary should try to show pronunciation.

Ideally, some explanation and/or commonly preferred option would be best, but even the RID doesn't do that...

คุณมังกรครับ

The Donmern/Sathienpong dictionary does not need a pronunciation guide because the hard-cover edition comes with a CD ROM which contains sound clips for each and every English and Thai word in the dictionary. The Fourth Edition hardback (published by SE-ED) is printed in a smaller form-factor than the previous versions - making for increased portability - and the dictionary and CD now retail for only 395 baht.

No more disputes regarding the quality or selection of a romanization scheme or the purity of phonetic transcriptions - the sounds are available at the flick of a key. How spiffy is that!

[SoftWater]

How spiffy is that!

Not very if you don't use MsWindows, or need the pronunciation feature in the absence of a power source.

I agree, dictionaries should provide at best both IPA phonetic and Thai phonetic for their entries, at worst at least one or the other. (I can think of one that does both for English entries, but I won't mention it again lest I upset Rikker...)

I have two versions of the dictionary mentioned by Mangkorn, a Thai-Thai (which runs to 1380 pages and has some phonetic Thai entries), and a Thai-English, which is an abbreviated and translated copy of the first. They're OK, but they don't always include the phonetic and often for the very words I'm wondering about. E.g., the question I asked on another thread about whether ไพเราะ is one or two syllables is not answered in TI's dictionaries.

I tend to use DS more often for Thai-English. I do use TI for Thai-Thai if I'm not online, otherwise its RID and the Sealang Haas site.

Edited January 20, 2010 by SoftWater