Why Are Thais And Expats Still In The Dark Ages?

[Latindancer]

I can't give any single solution, but I know the cause :

There are two types of people in the world........those who have empathy for others and the environment, and those who do not ( often referred to as <deleted>). This is now (believe it or not) a medically-recognized fact. It was reported in New Scientist magazine last year (or perhaps the year before) that a test has been developed which can tell researchrs if people have empathy or not.

I think all politicians and business leaders should take this test and the results be made public. Otherwise we will continue to be exploited by people who do not give a dam_n about others, the environmnt, or even their own childrens' future.

Think about it for a while. This test could change the world.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Latindancer

[cognos]

"..Otherwise we will continue to be exploited by people who do not give a dam_n about others, the environmnt, or even their own childrens' future.."

people in general often demand instant gratification, not a good recipe for the environment, relationships, or much else for that matter..easy come, easy go, including people, societies and the world, if we aren't more careful

[mogoso]

Where is the certainty that pesticides are the cause of the demise of the bee population? A quick google and a scan of several sites say that might be the problem or part of it but that's never the first place they go when mentioning possible causes.

Why does life in Thailand have to be as it was in your home countries?

Growing up in Florida the people moving or vacationing there would start sentences with" where I'm from we do it this way" and go on a rant about how backwards we were to their home environs of New York or where ever they came from. we just did it a way we liked at the pace we wanted, not at what some loud mouth yankee thought best.

Its the same with many people here who constantly complain on how that needs to be changed or this needs to be done that way. Accept the differences, enjoy life. Bunch of whining old farts too set in their ways to accept a different way of life. embrace and go with the flow, might be a hassle at times, but lifes full of little problems where ever you be. Don't change paradise into a parking lot.

[bkkjames]

Where is the certainty that pesticides are the cause of the demise of the bee population? A quick google and a scan of several sites say that might be the problem or part of it but that's never the first place they go when mentioning possible causes.

Why does life in Thailand have to be as it was in your home countries?

Growing up in Florida the people moving or vacationing there would start sentences with" where I'm from we do it this way" and go on a rant about how backwards we were to their home environs of New York or where ever they came from. we just did it a way we liked at the pace we wanted, not at what some loud mouth yankee thought best.

Its the same with many people here who constantly complain on how that needs to be changed or this needs to be done that way. Accept the differences, enjoy life. Bunch of whining old farts too set in their ways to accept a different way of life. embrace and go with the flow, might be a hassle at times, but lifes full of little problems where ever you be. Don't change paradise into a parking lot.

Speaking strictly of Bangkok, would it be ok to plant the parking lot and put up a paradise?

[hhgz]

"solution?? no idea.."

Thanks!

[OriginalPoster]

I can't give any single solution, but I know the cause :

There are two types of people in the world........those who have empathy for others and the environment, and those who do not ( often referred to as <deleted>). This is now (believe it or not) a medically-recognized fact. It was reported in New Scientist magazine last year (or perhaps the year before) that a test has been developed which can tell researchrs if people have empathy or not.

I think all politicians and business leaders should take this test and the results be made public. Otherwise we will continue to be exploited by people who do not give a dam_n about others, the environmnt, or even their own childrens' future.

Think about it for a while. This test could change the world.

There's a 3rd type - those who have empathy but don't do anything except complain that no one is doing anything about it.

[F1fanatic]

I think your post is rather simplistic.

Pesticides are bad...and good, or aren't you aware of crop pestilence and spoilage? What's your evidence that Alzheimers in Thailand is spreaking at "unprecedented levels" or that it's related to pesticides?

Personally I think pesticides are bad - they kill pests so its reasonable to assume that eating small amounts over decades won't do us a tremendous amount of good either. But - its easier and cheaper to farm that way so the farmers can produce food more cheaply than the organic option. The loss of birds etc. as a result of the loss of their food is not a consideration when it comes down to making money.

Landmines are bad...as is all war. So I suppose we should have just let the Nazis and Japanese take over the world back in the 1940s. And Cambodia and genocide? War is mean and nasty...and sometimes the only way out.

So something is v wrong with the way we govern ourselves. Why do we let our leaders START wars? I certainly don't have the answer to this - but it would be nice if some of the money and drive that we put into war was put into working out how to prevent them.

Call me a cynic, but I believe that war is too often used to keep the people behind the government - unless we have someone to fear/blame, we might start holding the government responsible.

The death penalty is something I have gone back and forth on several times during my lifetime. Some punishment is designed to be a deterrent, and some is just designed to punish. It's a moral issue and there is no totally easy answer to the issue. I have heard more than one person who is anti-death penalty say that there are -- of course -- exceptions.

Agree.

Millions of Thais "go basically uneducated", or just not educated in the same way that your are used to in your country? Well, how much wealth have you willingly shared? Given any large contributions to any Thai schools?

Agree that Thai education leaves something to be desired (which is why the wealthy are educated in the West). Not convinced that giving money to any institution (schools or whatever) necessarily improves things.

Again, I certainly don't know the answer but to castigate people for not giving "large" amounts of money to schools is not necessarily the answer either. Personally, I prefer to help out in a small way when I can - when I know the money is going where I want it to go.

[OriginalPoster]

I think your post is rather simplistic.

Pesticides are bad...and good, or aren't you aware of crop pestilence and spoilage? What's your evidence that Alzheimers in Thailand is spreaking at "unprecedented levels" or that it's related to pesticides?

Personally I think pesticides are bad - they kill pests so its reasonable to assume that eating small amounts over decades won't do us a tremendous amount of good either. But - its easier and cheaper to farm that way so the farmers can produce food more cheaply than the organic option. The loss of birds etc. as a result of the loss of their food is not a consideration when it comes down to making money.

It's easy to attribute pesticide use to a base desire to make money when you come to it with a western point of view and the with the assumption that those making the money are fat cats who are undeserving. However many Thai farmers barely subsist, and if they didn't use pesticides their crop yields would be so low as to make their farms nonviable. If you can convince these people that their families should go hungry rather than causing a few bees to die, all the power to you. If you can tell them that and actually believe it, then I'd say that maybe you should read the Guardian a little less.

Edited January 22, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

I think your post is rather simplistic.

Pesticides are bad...and good, or aren't you aware of crop pestilence and spoilage? What's your evidence that Alzheimers in Thailand is spreaking at "unprecedented levels" or that it's related to pesticides?

Personally I think pesticides are bad - they kill pests so its reasonable to assume that eating small amounts over decades won't do us a tremendous amount of good either. But - its easier and cheaper to farm that way so the farmers can produce food more cheaply than the organic option. The loss of birds etc. as a result of the loss of their food is not a consideration when it comes down to making money.

It's easy to attribute pesticide use to a base desire to make money when you come to it with a western point of view and the with the assumption that those making the money are fat cats who are undeserving. However many Thai farmers barely subsist, and if they didn't use pesticides their crop yields would be so low as to make their farms nonviable. If you can convince these people that their families should go hungry rather than causing a few bees to die, all the power to you. If you can tell them that and actually believe it, then I'd say that maybe you should read the Guardian a little less.

I believe you as I know precisely nothing about farming in Thailand.

But, be that as it may, I still believe its harming the people who eat the food (in the long run - even if the pesticides used are considered OK in the West - I suspect many are not).

Before pesticides were introduced farmers got by OK. They didn't make much money - about enough to provide for their family, otherwise they wouldn't have farmed.

Times have changed and the only important thing now is to make money.

[heykki]

Modern pesticides are actually much safer and efficient compared to the old ones, or even the ones they use in organic farming. Maybe you are the uneducated one? Next time, sober up before posting here.

[OriginalPoster]

I think your post is rather simplistic.

Pesticides are bad...and good, or aren't you aware of crop pestilence and spoilage? What's your evidence that Alzheimers in Thailand is spreaking at "unprecedented levels" or that it's related to pesticides?

Personally I think pesticides are bad - they kill pests so its reasonable to assume that eating small amounts over decades won't do us a tremendous amount of good either. But - its easier and cheaper to farm that way so the farmers can produce food more cheaply than the organic option. The loss of birds etc. as a result of the loss of their food is not a consideration when it comes down to making money.

It's easy to attribute pesticide use to a base desire to make money when you come to it with a western point of view and the with the assumption that those making the money are fat cats who are undeserving. However many Thai farmers barely subsist, and if they didn't use pesticides their crop yields would be so low as to make their farms nonviable. If you can convince these people that their families should go hungry rather than causing a few bees to die, all the power to you. If you can tell them that and actually believe it, then I'd say that maybe you should read the Guardian a little less.

I believe you as I know precisely nothing about farming in Thailand.

But, be that as it may, I still believe its harming the people who eat the food (in the long run - even if the pesticides used are considered OK in the West - I suspect many are not).

Before pesticides were introduced farmers got by OK. They didn't make much money - about enough to provide for their family, otherwise they wouldn't have farmed.

Times have changed and the only important thing now is to make money.

Whether farmers got by OK before pesticides is debatable. Historically farmers were the under-class, the salt of the earth who were shitted upon by the elite. It wasn't until the advent of mechanized farming that efficiencies rose enough for anyone to make enough money to be the object of envy. Even now most Western farmers are just ordinary working class people, not people driving around in Bentleys. And Thai farmers - heck, you don't want to change places with them. You've probably notice the level of mechanization in Thai farms - things have progressed a lot but you still see a lot more Buffalos in the fields than John Deere tractors. Even fewer of them drive Bentleys than the greedy Western capitalist farmers.

Edited January 22, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

To Originalposter,

Yes, historically farmers were the 'salt of the earth', but then again so were 90% (?) of the population - i.e. they got by without pesticides and were in the same position as the vast majority who were "shitted upon by the elite".

Have to admit that I don't know an awful lot about 'Western' farmers either - but most in the UK are big enterprises that make a LOT of money (they are driving around in Bentleys) - there's no room for the small farmer anymore, there's too much money involved. I gather its the same in the States.

Somehow I suspect its the same here as it was in the UK a few decades ago - most make a reasonable living (compared to the rest of the population). The more they destroy their environment the more money they'll make - and that's precisely what they're doing. The damage caused to the people by the pesticides is an irrelevance compared to the money to be made.

[F1fanatic]

Modern pesticides are actually much safer and efficient compared to the old ones, or even the ones they use in organic farming. Maybe you are the uneducated one? Next time, sober up before posting here.

Of course the modern pesticides are safer than those used in the past (although I'm not convinced those the Thais are using match Western standards).

I can't wait to hear how they're safer than the organic ones.

Have to say that although I've never farmed I used to have a reasonable sized garden back home in the UK surrounded by people who left theirs unattended. At first I used pesticides in my beloved garden, but then decided that was not the way to go as there were so many birds around.

Initially, many plants were almost decimated. After a couple of years they were far healthier than they were under my pesticide regime! (Although the blackspot on the roses got worse).

It taught me a lesson - select the right plants, give them the (organic) fertiliser they need to make up for the fact there are too many in one area than there would be in the wild, and let the natural predators take care of the pests.

[OriginalPoster]

To Originalposter,

Yes, historically farmers were the 'salt of the earth', but then again so were 90% (?) of the population - i.e. they got by without pesticides and were in the same position as the vast majority who were "shitted upon by the elite".

Have to admit that I don't know an awful lot about 'Western' farmers either - but most in the UK are big enterprises that make a LOT of money (they are driving around in Bentleys) - there's no room for the small farmer anymore, there's too much money involved. I gather its the same in the States.

Somehow I suspect its the same here as it was in the UK a few decades ago - most make a reasonable living (compared to the rest of the population). The more they destroy their environment the more money they'll make - and that's precisely what they're doing. The damage caused to the people by the pesticides is an irrelevance compared to the money to be made.

Find those fat cat farmers in Thailand, then we'll talk.

About the west, yes, big enterprises dominate the market now (they have of 14% total market share in the US, for instance) but you'd be surprised to learn how many family farms still exist in the US. According to the US department of agriculture, it's 98%. Spend a couple of weeks driving though Pennsylvania and you'll see what I mean - after you meet some of those people it becomes more difficult to begrudge them their livelihood.

Edited January 22, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

To Originalposter,

Yes, historically farmers were the 'salt of the earth', but then again so were 90% (?) of the population - i.e. they got by without pesticides and were in the same position as the vast majority who were "shitted upon by the elite".

Have to admit that I don't know an awful lot about 'Western' farmers either - but most in the UK are big enterprises that make a LOT of money (they are driving around in Bentleys) - there's no room for the small farmer anymore, there's too much money involved. I gather its the same in the States.

Somehow I suspect its the same here as it was in the UK a few decades ago - most make a reasonable living (compared to the rest of the population). The more they destroy their environment the more money they'll make - and that's precisely what they're doing. The damage caused to the people by the pesticides is an irrelevance compared to the money to be made.

Find those fat cat farmers in Thailand, then we'll talk.

About the west, yes, big enterprises dominate the market now (they have of 14% total market share in the US, for instance) but you'd be surprised to learn how many family farms still exist in the US. According to the US department of agriculture, it's 98%. Spend a couple of weeks driving though Pennsylvania and you'll see what I mean - after you meet some of those people it becomes more difficult to begrudge them their livelihood.

I (hope) I never implied the Thai farmers were 'fat cats'. Merely hoping to become so.

I am concerned though, about the pesticides they use which (I've no doubt) don't even meet Western standards.

Anyway, is it only me who thinks we're getting bogged down on the subject of farming to the detriment of the other interesting issues raised?

[OriginalPoster]

To Originalposter,

Yes, historically farmers were the 'salt of the earth', but then again so were 90% (?) of the population - i.e. they got by without pesticides and were in the same position as the vast majority who were "shitted upon by the elite".

Have to admit that I don't know an awful lot about 'Western' farmers either - but most in the UK are big enterprises that make a LOT of money (they are driving around in Bentleys) - there's no room for the small farmer anymore, there's too much money involved. I gather its the same in the States.

Somehow I suspect its the same here as it was in the UK a few decades ago - most make a reasonable living (compared to the rest of the population). The more they destroy their environment the more money they'll make - and that's precisely what they're doing. The damage caused to the people by the pesticides is an irrelevance compared to the money to be made.

Find those fat cat farmers in Thailand, then we'll talk.

About the west, yes, big enterprises dominate the market now (they have of 14% total market share in the US, for instance) but you'd be surprised to learn how many family farms still exist in the US. According to the US department of agriculture, it's 98%. Spend a couple of weeks driving though Pennsylvania and you'll see what I mean - after you meet some of those people it becomes more difficult to begrudge them their livelihood.

I (hope) I never implied the Thai farmers were 'fat cats'. Merely hoping to become so.

I am concerned though, about the pesticides they use which (I've no doubt) don't even meet Western standards.

Anyway, is it only me who thinks we're getting bogged down on the subject of farming to the detriment of the other interesting issues raised?

And I'm not advocating marinating your vegetables in pesticides, just trying to point out that many times using them is the least bad option. It's not just in terms of immediate profits and crop yields either. In health terms, with modern pesticides (unless you are literally marinating your vegetables in them), the risks are that exposure at a certain ppm level will cause longterm health effects that are as yet proven. The risk with not using them is more short term and dramatic - that something will contaminate the crops that will make people sick immediately. For instance, there have been cases where people have contracted e-coli by eating organic spinach.

Edited January 22, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

To Originalposter,

Yes, historically farmers were the 'salt of the earth', but then again so were 90% (?) of the population - i.e. they got by without pesticides and were in the same position as the vast majority who were "shitted upon by the elite".

Have to admit that I don't know an awful lot about 'Western' farmers either - but most in the UK are big enterprises that make a LOT of money (they are driving around in Bentleys) - there's no room for the small farmer anymore, there's too much money involved. I gather its the same in the States.

Somehow I suspect its the same here as it was in the UK a few decades ago - most make a reasonable living (compared to the rest of the population). The more they destroy their environment the more money they'll make - and that's precisely what they're doing. The damage caused to the people by the pesticides is an irrelevance compared to the money to be made.

Find those fat cat farmers in Thailand, then we'll talk.

About the west, yes, big enterprises dominate the market now (they have of 14% total market share in the US, for instance) but you'd be surprised to learn how many family farms still exist in the US. According to the US department of agriculture, it's 98%. Spend a couple of weeks driving though Pennsylvania and you'll see what I mean - after you meet some of those people it becomes more difficult to begrudge them their livelihood.

I (hope) I never implied the Thai farmers were 'fat cats'. Merely hoping to become so.

I am concerned though, about the pesticides they use which (I've no doubt) don't even meet Western standards.

Anyway, is it only me who thinks we're getting bogged down on the subject of farming to the detriment of the other interesting issues raised?

And I'm not advocating marinating your vegetables in pesticides, just trying to point out that many times using them is the least bad option. It's not just in terms of immediate profits and crop yields either. In health terms, with modern pesticides (unless you are literally marinating your vegetables in them), the risks are that exposure at a certain ppm level will cause longterm health effects that are as yet proven. The risk with not using them is more short term and dramatic - that something will contaminate the crops that will make people sick immediately. For instance, there have been cases where people have contracted e-coli by eating organic spinach.

OK. I give up and totally accept that the pesticides used in Thailand are not only completely harmless, they're great for the environment too.

The organic idea is totally stupid (despite the way it worked for milleniums until money became involved).

I agree too that the organic option harms people far more than the pesticide solution. ( )

Can we move on to the other interesting points raised?

[OriginalPoster]

And I'm not advocating marinating your vegetables in pesticides, just trying to point out that many times using them is the least bad option. It's not just in terms of immediate profits and crop yields either. In health terms, with modern pesticides (unless you are literally marinating your vegetables in them), the risks are that exposure at a certain ppm level will cause longterm health effects that are as yet proven. The risk with not using them is more short term and dramatic - that something will contaminate the crops that will make people sick immediately. For instance, there have been cases where people have contracted e-coli by eating organic spinach.

OK. I give up and totally accept that the pesticides used in Thailand are not only completely harmless, they're great for the environment too.

The organic idea is totally stupid (despite the way it worked for milleniums until money became involved).

I agree too that the organic option harms people far more than the pesticide solution. ( )

Can we move on to the other interesting points raised?

The other points raised were similarly naive and childlike. If the thread went off topic in discussing farming, that's no great harm.

Edited January 22, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[F1fanatic]

And I'm not advocating marinating your vegetables in pesticides, just trying to point out that many times using them is the least bad option. It's not just in terms of immediate profits and crop yields either. In health terms, with modern pesticides (unless you are literally marinating your vegetables in them), the risks are that exposure at a certain ppm level will cause longterm health effects that are as yet proven. The risk with not using them is more short term and dramatic - that something will contaminate the crops that will make people sick immediately. For instance, there have been cases where people have contracted e-coli by eating organic spinach.

OK. I give up and totally accept that the pesticides used in Thailand are not only completely harmless, they're great for the environment too.

The organic idea is totally stupid (despite the way it worked for milleniums until money became involved).

I agree too that the organic option harms people far more than the pesticide solution. ( )

Can we move on to the other interesting points raised?

The other points raised were similarly naive and childlike. If the thread went off topic in discussing farming, that's no great harm.

Perhaps you ought to address them then rather than making patronising comments?

[OriginalPoster]

And I'm not advocating marinating your vegetables in pesticides, just trying to point out that many times using them is the least bad option. It's not just in terms of immediate profits and crop yields either. In health terms, with modern pesticides (unless you are literally marinating your vegetables in them), the risks are that exposure at a certain ppm level will cause longterm health effects that are as yet proven. The risk with not using them is more short term and dramatic - that something will contaminate the crops that will make people sick immediately. For instance, there have been cases where people have contracted e-coli by eating organic spinach.

OK. I give up and totally accept that the pesticides used in Thailand are not only completely harmless, they're great for the environment too.

The organic idea is totally stupid (despite the way it worked for milleniums until money became involved).

I agree too that the organic option harms people far more than the pesticide solution. ( )

Can we move on to the other interesting points raised?

The other points raised were similarly naive and childlike. If the thread went off topic in discussing farming, that's no great harm.

Perhaps you ought to address them then rather than making patronising comments?

You start, pick a point and run with it.

Edited January 22, 2010 by OriginalPoster

[Richb2004v2]

'Bees are disappearing at an alarming rate'

Brilliant!

Another fantastic topic to give me a laugh.

This isn't by any chance from the same guy that gave us the '7-11 stole a piece of my sausage' is it? :D

Well done.

[canuckamuck]

The disappearing bee problem is global not just specific to Thailand Colony collapse disorder

Dissapearing sausage bits is all Thai though

[IanForbes]

All those preservatives are good for you. Look how well they have preserved me! Some folks thought I was a mummy... until I moved. Scared the bejaysus out of them.

[dumball]

With no real constructive effort to change as they already know it all , will not listen to good advise proffered , where else would you expect them to be , all I read is mammoth amounts of procrastination , crack down on this , hub of this that and the other , and what ever else you care to mention , Thai are delusional about their being the best at all things , just not appreciated , 555 .

[cognos]

All those preservatives are good for you. Look how well they have preserved me! Some folks thought I was a mummy... until I moved. Scared the bejaysus out of them.

Thai women are developing a taste for "pickled sausage"..

..but ( semi ) seriously, will TV go back to the " dark ages " of 2003, with a single TV member, ( the owner ) if these unecessary crackdowns on foreign - owned sex bars persist?? Gosh, then he would have no one to play with but himself, and issan would have all its rice pickers back in tow.

signed: keeping the poor girls down on the ( issan) farm

[Eazy-Going]

Where is the certainty that pesticides are the cause of the demise of the bee population? A quick google and a scan of several sites say that might be the problem or part of it but that's never the first place they go when mentioning possible causes.

Why does life in Thailand have to be as it was in your home countries?

Growing up in Florida the people moving or vacationing there would start sentences with" where I'm from we do it this way" and go on a rant about how backwards we were to their home environs of New York or where ever they came from. we just did it a way we liked at the pace we wanted, not at what some loud mouth yankee thought best.

Its the same with many people here who constantly complain on how that needs to be changed or this needs to be done that way. Accept the differences, enjoy life. Bunch of whining old farts too set in their ways to accept a different way of life. embrace and go with the flow, might be a hassle at times, but lifes full of little problems where ever you be. Don't change paradise into a parking lot.

I'm with you my friend....live and let live!

[dumball]

That's a laugh , don't change paradise into a parking lot , did you not know in many parts of the world , Bangkok is known as 'The instant parking lot ' ? .

[phetaroi]

i ccomplrete agree wiht tthe OP. im shaking my head all tthe time wiht tthese peple, no helmets aadn barefoot on tthe motorbikes, little children piled up on tthe front aadn tthe back. its an axcident waiting to happen.

Boris, I agree with you. And, construction workers wearing flip-flops. And motorcycles weaving in and out of stopped traffic and hitting pedestrians...which happened to my mate...all because people have to hurry, hurry, hurry to go sit and wait.

[IanForbes]

i ccomplrete agree wiht tthe OP. im shaking my head all tthe time wiht tthese peple, no helmets aadn barefoot on tthe motorbikes, little children piled up on tthe front aadn tthe back. its an axcident waiting to happen.

Boris, I agree with you. And, construction workers wearing flip-flops. And motorcycles weaving in and out of stopped traffic and hitting pedestrians...which happened to my mate...all because people have to hurry, hurry, hurry to go sit and wait.

You are stealing my favourite line... "Hurry up and wait"

Safety is not an issue with Thais because Buddha is looking after their life. There IS no such thing as cause and effect, or being responsible for your own actions.

[GuestHouse]

Safety is not an issue with Thais because Buddha is looking after their life. There IS no such thing as cause and effect, or being responsible for your own actions.

I've an anecdote on this very theme.

Some years back I was talking with the Thai manager of a contracting company which we were just completing a very large project with - One of the successes of the project was we had a very low accident/incident rate (no fatalities, no really serious injuries). Contrary to the popular barstool belief that Thais just can't do safety, the project had achieved the this safety level by very high compliance to safety among the Thai workforce (not without constant management but nevertheless, a Thai construction site with near 100% compliance on use of safety helmets, googles, gloves, safety boots, harnesses etc ...... It can be achieved in Thailand)

I was discussing this very point with the Thai manager of the contract company when he responded.

"The Safety Record wasn't due to safety equipment and safety rules, it was simply the workers had good khama - if an accident was going to happen it would have happened".

This from a guy who manages huge projects with sometimes tens of thousands of workers - Educated and with years of experience in the construction industry he has no belief that anything mere mortals do can prevent accidents.