What's With Grace International School?

[orang37]

We agree with others posters here on TV CM that we can validly look at this as an issue of a legal dispute about property rights without getting into controversy about the particular religion involved.

With hindsight, ahhh, beautiful, illuminating, hindsight : the issue of the failure of "due diligence" in land purchase, and the issue of the "business competence" of the founders/managers of the school, and their attorneys or advisors, can be raised, but of what practical use is that now ?

But can we also question (without casting any aspersions) the idea of the "edifice complex" coming into play here ?

Are there alternatives other than the immediate purchase of land, building new facilities, at a cost of US $10 million ?

If the founders and directors of the School believe they are performing a special service of "redeeming social value" based on their religious and ethical principles ... i.e., for other reasons than financial profit ... : one wonders if they cannot carry on the important task of educating and nurturing young minds in temporary quarters.

One wonders if : from the vast "smorgasboord" of abandoned and unfinished properties one observes in many parts of Chiang Mai, some much lower-cost alternative might be found and "rehabilitated" quickly.

If we really wished to drown ourselves in fantasy, we could also imagine all the other educational institutions of this same particular religion coming together to help the students, and their fellow educators, at this school, but, given what we know of history, we'd rather stay on the dry sands of the beach of skepticism, just burning our bare feet, rather than go into those waters where amputation is so quickly offered by cruising sharks.

best, ~o:37;

[getgoin]

A big part of the reason for limiting the homeowner's rights to the club house had to do with the safety of the children. They are very protective of the kids.

It is obvious that some of the posters have never had any interaction with the folks at Grace and it appears that many of the criticisms are based on bigotry and hatred. Grace is a well run school, as good as any in Chiang Mai, and the parents and the kids are just normal people with a particular belief. The teachers and the administrators at Grace receive no payment for their work and raise all of the capital for their living by themselves. For anyone to berate the school and the people is pure ignorance.

Religion was also not the reason for the court's verdict nor was it the reason for the lawsuit.

It has become obvious that they made a poor choice in buying the building assets of the developer.

[Bill97]

A big part of the reason for limiting the homeowner's rights to the club house had to do with the safety of the children. They are very protective of the kids.

Are you suggesting that they were worried about homeowners being a threat in some way to the safety of the school children or what?

[harrry]

It appears it is the homeowners rights that have been violated not the children.

Edited January 24, 2010 by harrry

[getgoin]

A big part of the reason for limiting the homeowner's rights to the club house had to do with the safety of the children. They are very protective of the kids.

Are you suggesting that they were worried about homeowners being a threat in some way to the safety of the school children or what?

I am not privy to all the decisions that were made to restrict the home owners to using the facilities after school hours. It probably was disruptive having mostly men wandering around school while they were open.

I also do not know why they would have restricted access if they had not thought they were contractually allowed to do so.

It basically boils down to the developer selling off the club house in their development to a private party and the other parties were not happy about it. I don't think that you can blame the home owners for wanting their club house back.

I asked why didn't Grace offer to build another club house for the housing development and was told that the people bringing the suit only wanted their place back.

As for the developer, someone once told me that he and his family were ruined by the whole deal. As I understand it the development was basically bankrupt and the assets were sold off.

While there might not be religious overtones to the lawsuit, the fact that one of the major players in the suit is also a Thai judge we probably might never know who was right or who was wrong. We might just see who wins and how.

[BigWheelMan]

Grace's problem is that they are of a religion destined to lose.

If they were Jewish, Grace could claim anti Semitism, if Grace was Muslim, it could claim, racism, if it was Buddhist, of course this would be no problem in Thailand.

So if dear old Gracie can't play the race card, I'm afraid that educational institution based on Christianity will lose the battle.

Maybe Grace should walk into court singing, March On Christian Soldiers?

Edited January 24, 2010 by BigWheelMan

[Bill97]

A big part of the reason for limiting the homeowner's rights to the club house had to do with the safety of the children. They are very protective of the kids.

Are you suggesting that they were worried about homeowners being a threat in some way to the safety of the school children or what?

the fact that one of the major players in the suit is also a Thai judge we probably might never know who was right or who was wrong.

What does this Thai judge have to do with obscuring who was right or wrong? Are you suggesting something unfair is involved?

[ferd54]

A big part of the reason for limiting the homeowner's rights to the club house had to do with the safety of the children. They are very protective of the kids.

Are you suggesting that they were worried about homeowners being a threat in some way to the safety of the school children or what?

In fairness to Grace I can certainly understand the need to keep school kids, including teenaged girls, in an environment free from non-school adults of any nationality. In this instance good walls make good neighbors, but it appears they may not have had the legal right to do that. In all, a bad situation, but they certainly have to "err" on the side of safety for their students.

Obviously they need their own, purpose-built campus

What does this Thai judge have to do with obscuring who was right or wrong? Are you suggesting something unfair is involved?

Are you implying that a biased deal in favor of a Thai judge is beyond the realm of possibility in Thailand?

[Ulysses G.]

In fairness to Grace I can certainly understand the need to keep school kids, including teenaged girls, in an environment free from non-school adults of any nationality.

I don't blame the neighbors for getting resentful about having their health club privileges revoked, but ferd54 has made a point here that most of us can understand and sympathize with.

[Bill97]

A big part of the reason for limiting the homeowner's rights to the club house had to do with the safety of the children. They are very protective of the kids.

Are you suggesting that they were worried about homeowners being a threat in some way to the safety of the school children or what?

In fairness to Grace I can certainly understand the need to keep school kids, including teenaged girls, in an environment free from non-school adults of any nationality. In this instance good walls make good neighbors, but it appears they may not have had the legal right to do that. In all, a bad situation, but they certainly have to "err" on the side of safety for their students.

Obviously they need their own, purpose-built campus

What does this Thai judge have to do with obscuring who was right or wrong? Are you suggesting something unfair is involved?

Are you implying that a biased deal in favor of a Thai judge is beyond the realm of possibility in Thailand?

Certainly a biased decision for any number of reasons is not beyond the realm of possibility in Thailand or in any other country.

I agree with many other posters that Grace has made significant mistakes and it seems that now is time for them to pay the piper. If not now it will be later. There are some fine people associated with Grace and it is sad that they will suffer as a result of some poor decisions made by their leaders.

"Obviously they need their own purpose-built campus" but that has not been obvious to them. You ought to go give them the word Ferd, then they will know and just move on to build a new campus and end all the fuss.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Bill97

[ferd54]

"Obviously they need their own purpose-built campus" but that has not been obvious to them. You ought to go give them the word Ferd, then they will know and just move on to build a new campus and end all the fuss.

I surprised you haven't blessed them with all of your wisdom and taken charge already.

[Bill97]

"Obviously they need their own purpose-built campus" but that has not been obvious to them. You ought to go give them the word Ferd, then they will know and just move on to build a new campus and end all the fuss.

I surprised you haven't blessed them with all of your wisdom and taken charge already.

you can lead a horse to water but...........

[Thakkar]

In fairness to Grace I can certainly understand the need to keep school kids, including teenaged girls, in an environment free from non-school adults of any nationality.

I don't blame the neighbors for getting resentful about having their health club privileges revoked, but ferd54 has made a point here that most of us can understand and sympathize with.

Ferd45's point is valid only if you take it out of the actual context. Grace knew going in that they'd be sharing the clubhouse. It's a bit rich to say later that they're barring residents "to protect the children"

If I remember correctly from the previous thread which I'd read a long time ago, everything was fine till the school expanded, got more students and more after school activities which began to encroach on the residents' use of the club facilities. I think the residents only took action when their hours of use were cut back unilaterally by the school.

Of course the school is right to be concerned for the children. The concern should have been exhibited much earlier; it was irresponsible to sign a co-use agreement in the first place.

[earlofwindermere]

Was just sent this link.

Saving Grace Website

[harrry]

maybe they need a link to this

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

it is from their bible. Or maybe swimming pools are excluded,

[ferd54]

Was just sent this link.

Saving Grace Website

The opening sentence on the above site it asserts: "Saving Grace is a project to ensure that more than 600 missionary kids in Chiang Mai Thailand are able to continue their education at Grace International School."

Anyone with even passing knowledge knows that all the students at Grace are not the children of missionaries (nor are they "missionary kids" -- one pictures youngsters knocking on doors to spread the Word).

So is this a measure of Grace's honesty overall? The whole story continues to be a bit dodgy. And what's the one about "thou shalt not lie?"

[Ulysses G.]

Lies? It is called Marketing.

[Ricardo]

Lies? It is called Marketing.

Marketing ? It's called being extremely economical with the truth !

[getgoin]

Was just sent this link.

Saving Grace Website

The opening sentence on the above site it asserts: "Saving Grace is a project to ensure that more than 600 missionary kids in Chiang Mai Thailand are able to continue their education at Grace International School."

Anyone with even passing knowledge knows that all the students at Grace are not the children of missionaries (nor are they "missionary kids" -- one pictures youngsters knocking on doors to spread the Word).

So is this a measure of Grace's honesty overall? The whole story continues to be a bit dodgy. And what's the one about "thou shalt not lie?"

They are children of missionaries, children of Christians and/or about 10% others who want a good education for their kids. Are we splitting hairs here?

[ferd54]

Was just sent this link.

Saving Grace Website

The opening sentence on the above site it asserts: "Saving Grace is a project to ensure that more than 600 missionary kids in Chiang Mai Thailand are able to continue their education at Grace International School."

Anyone with even passing knowledge knows that all the students at Grace are not the children of missionaries (nor are they "missionary kids" -- one pictures youngsters knocking on doors to spread the Word).

So is this a measure of Grace's honesty overall? The whole story continues to be a bit dodgy. And what's the one about "thou shalt not lie?"

They are children of missionaries, children of Christians and/or about 10% others who want a good education for their kids. Are we splitting hairs here?

I SERIOUSLY doubt that 90 percent of the students at Grace at the children of missionaries. Again, the appeal for donations said "600 missionary kids" -- so don't you split hairs about the claim. It's very clear.

I would suspect that perhaps 50 percent -- or more -- of the students at Grace are Thais who have nothing to do with Christianity, but that's an admitted guess.

[Bill97]

I would suspect that perhaps 50 percent -- or more -- of the students at Grace are Thais who have nothing to do with Christianity, but that's an admitted guess.

and it is guess that is far from correct. call them up and ask about admissions and they will tell you they have only a small number spaces allocated for not missionary/christians. look at the kids leaving school at the end of the day and you will not find anywhere near 50% Thais.

"anyone with a passing knowledge", to use your own words, knows it

[getgoin]

Maybe you want to point out to them that they are exaggerating their statistics and that if 60 of their students are not Christians then they should say so.

It never ceases to amaze me the opinions and thoughts that people can have when in the confines of their homes. One of the unfortunate effects of the internet. Without actually being out in public people will say almost anything without actually thinking about what they are saying and realizing that their words do have meaning and do have effect.

Why would you even take the time to argue about this and about why 60 kids want to go to school at one of the best international schools in CM with people who are good hearted and kind?

I am sure that Grace International's mission statement is clear. Let's hear your's.

[ferd54]

Maybe you want to point out to them that they are exaggerating their statistics and that if 60 of their students are not Christians then they should say so.

Why am I "splitting hairs? I'm disputing their veracity. Either their claim is true or it's not true. Does "kind of close" enable students to get a correct answer on an algebra test?

They are held to a very high standards on two levels: They claim to know God and they are teachers of young people. The first ... well, let's not get into that ... the second point is something we can talk about and it is extremely important. So their public, published claims asking for money should be accurate.

And I have been at sporting events attended by all the international schools -- so I've seen a sample of their student body -- and have an acquaintance (a wealthy Sino-Thai Buddhist) whose son goes there. I still dispute that Grace's student body is anywhere near 600 "missionary kids".

[PeaceBlondie]

I tutored about 5 family members from Grace - students or parents. They were all Christian missionary types, all S. Koreans.

[Thakkar]

I would like to start a school for "Atheist kids" and solicit donations for that purpose. "Missionary kids" would be welcome to attend, and would in fact have priority entry as they are deemed more in need of open-minded learning.

Creationism would be thought as a joke class where kids could unwind, make up their own myths, or just have a belly laugh.

Donors may contact me via PM.

[Dante99]

I heard that Grace lost their legal appeal and has to move to a new location. Can anyone confirm this? If so, when does the move have to be made and where are they going?

[chaoyang]

I heard that Grace lost their legal appeal and has to move to a new location. Can anyone confirm this? If so, when does the move have to be made and where are they going?

This from their fundraising website called "Saving Grace":

Grace International School Educational Foundation (GIESF), the legal organization under which Grace International School operates, purchased 86 rai of land for the school's new campus last week. That's 2½ times the space currently occupied by the school.

If all the necessary funds were available today, the school could move to the new site within 2-3 years. More immediately, as the remaining funds come in for The Saving Grace Project of $1.2 million USD, the school's administration will be able to:

• •Raise the height of the land and develop infrastructure on the property including electrical, drainage, sewer and water systems and roads.

  
  

• •Hire the Thai architect.

  
  

• •Build temporary classrooms if necessary.

  
  

• •Begin the next phase of raising $7 million USD for the construction of buildings and other facilities.

  
  

The new campus site is about 10 kilometers south of the current campus -- and right behind a sign that says "Future Site of Grace International School"!

It's very possible that people will begin speculating and buying land near the new campus. An undeveloped muubaan close by has many pieces of vacant property. Property right next to the school's new location could also be available for purchase. Please be advised that, while everyone associated with The Saving Grace Project is excited and confident about the future, Grace International School and GISEF take no responsibility for what might happen with land around the school's new site and are making no promises regarding the timing of when the school will actually move.

Meanwhile, fundraising and publicity efforts will continue in order to raise the additional $1.2 million needed to complete The Saving Grace Project.

[Dante99]

Thank you Chaoyang. I looked at the website and it states that the new campus land is about 10 kilometers south of the existing one. Quite far from Chiang Mai.

[JimShortz]

I would like to start a school for "Atheist kids" and solicit donations for that purpose. "Missionary kids" would be welcome to attend, and would in fact have priority entry as they are deemed more in need of open-minded learning.

Creationism would be thought as a joke class where kids could unwind, make up their own myths, or just have a belly laugh.

Donors may contact me via PM.

How's it going?

You don't seem to have had many responses. Maybe you need a more catchy fund raising slogan. Have you considered "Saving the Human Race" or "A mission to evolve"?

Maybe others have better ideas? Lets evolve some ideas together...

[chaoyang]

I would like to start a school for "Atheist kids" and solicit donations for that purpose. "Missionary kids" would be welcome to attend, and would in fact have priority entry as they are deemed more in need of open-minded learning.

Creationism would be thought as a joke class where kids could unwind, make up their own myths, or just have a belly laugh.

Donors may contact me via PM.

How's it going?

You don't seem to have had many responses. Maybe you need a more catchy fund raising slogan. Have you considered "Saving the Human Race" or "A mission to evolve"?

Maybe others have better ideas? Lets evolve some ideas together...

Grace DOES HAVE slick websites to raise money. These folk clearly ain't just no backwaters bumpkins. They like the magic of what those bucks can do and what they need to do to get after it.

Thakkar, you will need to study the tax laws so you can promote donations as tax deductible. Build a couple of catchy websites, make some vague promises, and maybe one day you and those who think like you can have a nice American-style life in Chiang Mai. Bring on those burgers! Four kids, two cars, a nice walled compound!