Pm Abhisit Defends His Record On Human Rights

[animatic]

Same dilemna as abisit the abuser, he has to "prove it" at the Human Rights Watch.

One major difference:

Thaksin is known to have given multiple orders logically resulting in human rights abuses.

While most of the charges against Abhisit are caused in spite of his views and directives on human rights.

A big difference between the two leadership styles and end results.

Edited January 27, 2010 by animatic

[rixalex]

* I don't tell people what to do. YOU do.

The only thing i'm guilty of telling someone to do is telling you to stop telling other people on this forum what they should think concerning Thaksin. Rather than simply express your own opinion and making your own case, you seem compelled to day after day tell us how disgusted and sickened you are that members have the audacity to dislike Thaksin and push for his punishment to be delivered. For a man whom you claim to dislike, one doth protest a little too much, methinks.

* Yes, but you and me, being Farang, have no say in Thai Justice, that's why it's sickening of Farang to obsessively follow suit; as if Thai Justice would ever listen to those Farang.

Not this boring old chestnut surely? This is a forum that allows everyone to express an opinion. It does not discriminate between those who have a say and those who don't. It's simply an exchange of ideas / thoughts. All are welcome. Telling people they should stop having thoughts / ideas on the basis that if you can't change something, you should just stop thinking and be done with it, makes no sense to me. If it does to you, one wonders what you are doing on this forum expressing an opinion yourself.

That's your problem not mine.

The bitterness, anger and venom i see in your comments is by no means a problem of mine. I was simply making note of it as you were complaining of seeing this emotion in other people's comments.

* If "some people" don't want to listen why did HM especially address his speech to Thailand's Judges*** ?

The some people i was refering to was you. You repeatedly tell us I'm glad you chaps are no Thai Judges but it seems to me you don't have a particularly high opinion of them either (Thai judges). Otherwise, why do you contest their decisions? Or am i wrong? Is it not you who claims that Thaksin's conviction was politically motivated?

[animatic]

You say you are glad some of us are not the judges.

Well judge is much the same as juror in the Thaksin trial, just better versed in law.

Not all facts are always known, you deal with the information you can get.

....That's why all of us should always be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever.

LaoPo

Or what?

Some overly touchy person will turn us in to the thought police

for having overly critical opinions of where we are, and who runs it,

and try to run us off, or out of the country?

Sounds like a threat to silence opinion me.

Why might I think that?

[Oberkommando]

You still haven't proved Thaksin was worse.

All you have done is linked to the Human Right's abuses which we are all aware that Thaksin was accused of and allegedly committed under his premiership.

Looks a whole lot worse to me.

So in other words, Thaksin was worse in your opinion.

Don't try to qualify your opinion as fact.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Oberkommando

[LaoPo]

You say you are glad some of us are not the judges.

Well judge is much the same as juror in the Thaksin trial, just better versed in law.

Not all facts are always known, you deal with the information you can get.

....That's why all of us should always be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever.

LaoPo

Or what?

Some overly touchy person will turn us in to the thought police

for having overly critical opinions of where we are, and who runs it,

and try to run us off, or out of the country?

Sounds like a threat to silence opinion me.

Why might I think that?

Or what?...nothing.

...a threat to silence opinion me ?

Why might I think that? : I don't know what you might think but if people see spooky things in my sentence to be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever, I'm flabbergasted because I'm saying exactly the same thing as HM when he addressed his speech to Thailand's Judges.

LaoPo

[way2muchcoffee]

I don't know what you might think but if people see spooky things in my sentence to be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever, I'm flabbergasted

Well I, for one, was spooked by your comments. It gave me pause to reflect on some of my posts and the possibility of anything coming back and biting. Whether you meant it this way or not, it probably is pretty sage advice to consider what we write and how we write it. It is clear that this site is being monitored. And talk about spooky, this is my 666th post a TVF.

Edited January 27, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Asa]

It's TS administration policy daclaring war on drugs, to do good for the country. Governement officials get the idea and did some rough ups. I believe few of the missings are their jobs, but most were eliminated by the kingpin's order. What TS should be held responsible is that he didn't stop teh suppression where he can, and save lives. On southern bandits, protester died of suffocation due to junior officers stupidity under limited time and tools pressure. This is manslauther case, not a first degree as many thought.

Abhisit cleary stated that Laos Hmongs have to go, based on intelligent informations he received. He chose the right option for Thailand. Yet he receives condemnation from UN, US, EU and HRW. Goverment officials are exonerated. On Rohinga case, PM was just being pushed up there, can't really blame him for Burmese boat people exodus, which seems in line with Australian policy, and the US, they have been doing the same thing(push-out-tug-out) to boat people wishing for a new lives in the new world.

Can't judge them really, only express my view.

[LaoPo]

I don't know what you might think but if people see spooky things in my sentence to be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever, I'm flabbergasted

Well I, for one, was spooked by your comments. It gave me pause to reflect on some of my posts and the possibility of anything coming back and biting. Whether you meant it this way or not, it probably is pretty sage advice to consider what we write and how we write it. It is clear that this site is being monitored. And talk about spooky, this is my 666th post a TVF.

When I wrote: "...That's why all of us should always be careful with our judgements, whenever and where ever." I meant it to be for ALL OF US, all over the world.

If members take/took that remark personal it might have been a good thing that they have thought of it twice indeed.

"We" are always so very good in giving our opinions BEFORE we even consider that the "accused" has his/her rights to defence him/herself but especially on this board it's more common than exception that members have decided alread: GUILTY, before the "accused" has even had a chance to defend him/herself or to consider that they could be wrong.

That's why I also said that I'm happy that some Farang on this board are not the Thai Judges since they are not behaving according to HM's plead, telling the Judges to be neutral and just:

""Justice means when you judge something, you know what is just and what is not. Actually, it is not easy because everybody has their own ideas and desires. But you have to stay in the middle," the King said.

"Sometimes your judgement may lead to criticism. The judgement may not satisfy all sides. But the significance of your job is being neutral and just. If you can do it, that means you are doing your duty; but if you can't, it's tantamount to betraying justice. You may be viewed in a bad light and that is ugly," he said.

"If you can perform your duties by correctly realising what is fair and just, you will win in reality. So you should maintain justice and perform your duty bravely. If you lack bravery, for whatever the cause, that shows a lack of justice and points to ignorance."

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Brave-Hm-Kin...es-t333098.html

And: Congratulations on your 666th post ; don't be superstitious

LaoPo

[animatic]

I think we know why some should watch their words,

because some others WILL point things out and cause trouble

in others actual lives not just their little online worlds.

Yes all of us all over the world, because some one might be watching

and with malice aforethought mess with your life because your philosophy

is not matching theirs.

And I have specific reasons to NOT like the tone of this, in it's context.

[monkfish]

Monk it was by request.

I only had said it wasn't as bad this times as before.

And not specifically meaning Thaksin in many of those times.

But I had to prove it to someone.

Ani to make it fair could you dig some stuff up from his first year in office

[mca]

Commenting on cases related to lese majeste and computer crimes, he said his government had initiated a review mechanism to ensure fairness.

"My government intend to bring culprits to justice based on their motives rather than the politicization of these cases," he said.

I think the PM is missing the point by a country mile here.

In my humble opinion it's not the politicization of the HM law that would concern me as a human rights group.

More a case of sticking some poor bastard in prison for 10 years for posting a video on the internet.

[animatic]

Monk it was by request.

I only had said it wasn't as bad this times as before.

And not specifically meaning Thaksin in many of those times.

But I had to prove it to someone.

Ani to make it fair could you dig some stuff up from his first year in office

Was there life before 2004?

Hard to tell.

[mca]

"If my government had a poor human rights record as alleged, then we certainly would not have the audacity to join the race for a position in charge of human rights at the United Nations," he said.

Naturally I stand to be corrected but in the case of the Hmong repatriation weren't the ones sent back from Nong Khai on the UNHCR lists as Persons Of Concern and were not given access to until the day of departure where they en masse said they did not want to return contradicting the "voluntary repatriation " reports given out by the Thai authorities?

[monkfish]

Monk it was by request.

I only had said it wasn't as bad this times as before.

And not specifically meaning Thaksin in many of those times.

But I had to prove it to someone.

Ani to make it fair could you dig some stuff up from his first year in office

Was there life before 2004?

Hard to tell.

I guess what you mean is that you can not find anything

[animatic]

Didn't look actually.

[LaoPo]

I think we know why some should watch their words,

because some others WILL point things out and cause trouble

in others actual lives not just their little online worlds.

Yes all of us all over the world, because some one might be watching

and with malice aforethought mess with your life because your philosophy

is not matching theirs.

And I have specific reasons to NOT like the tone of this, in it's context.

It's not because of someone might be watching because, frankly spoken, I don't care if someone is watching or not, since there's nothing I can do about it.

It's about our own self esteem and dignity whether to accuse someone or not and like HM says: "..be neutral and just."

Are YOU neutral and just Animatic ?

If you don't like the tone, it's probably because you read spooky ghosts in the content which aren't around and/or meant to be but I can't be sure of that of course, not knowing about your specific reasons.

LaoPo

[monkfish]

"If my government had a poor human rights record as alleged, then we certainly would not have the audacity to join the race for a position in charge of human rights at the United Nations," he said.

Naturally I stand to be corrected but in the case of the Hmong repatriation weren't the ones sent back from Nong Khai on the UNHCR lists as Persons Of Concern and were not given access to until the day of departure where they en masse said they did not want to return contradicting the "voluntary repatriation " reports given out by the Thai authorities?

I think this is true according to Human Rights Watch

HRW also wrote 2 letters personally to Mr Abhisit requesting that they nor be deported.

1. http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/11/20/lett...o-hmong-refugee

2. http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/12/24/lett...ng-asylum-seeke

The question is then, why did he deport them? and what happened to them?

Edited January 27, 2010 by monkfish

[LaoPo]

"If my government had a poor human rights record as alleged, then we certainly would not have the audacity to join the race for a position in charge of human rights at the United Nations," he said.

Naturally I stand to be corrected but in the case of the Hmong repatriation weren't the ones sent back from Nong Khai on the UNHCR lists as Persons Of Concern and were not given access to until the day of departure where they en masse said they did not want to return contradicting the "voluntary repatriation " reports given out by the Thai authorities?

I think this is true according to Human Rights Watch

HRW also wrote 2 letters personally to Mr Abhisit requesting that they nor be deported.

1. http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/11/20/lett...o-hmong-refugee

2. http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/12/24/lett...ng-asylum-seeke

The question is then, why did he deport them? and what happened to them?

I agree and support your worries and thanks for the letter links!

If one reads those letters it's a shame that Abhisit even dares to say: "...then we certainly would not have the audacity to join the race for a position in charge of human rights at the United Nations."

As if the bluntly refused 4 countries, willing to take the first group of 158 Hmong Refugees, the US amongst them, would vote for Thailand to be in charge of the Human Rights Commission at the UN.

Thailand to be in charge for Human Rights at the UN

No way, and they better withdraw in order not to lose (more) face.

LaoPo

[monkfish]

LaoPo

No problem, I think the two letters are almost as important than the 2010 report as they indicate Mr Abhisit may be rejected the HRW request not to deport the refugees, although they had already found new homes for the people OUTSIDE of Thailand.

Agreed after reading the two letters it makes the PM statement seem well......mmmm......

Edited January 27, 2010 by monkfish

[CLOD]

Abisit is going to have to come up with some better excuses than his PAD apologists on here have done for his human rights abuse, when he is up before a proper court.

Somehow don't think he will be using any of it before that proper court.

Abisits writes his own jokes .

[mca]

I hope Aphisit does get the chance to be in charge of Human Rights at the UN. I'd like to see him use his eloquence ans suaveness to explain things such as the emergency decree for the security forces whitewashing any crimes committed by them and draconian prison sentences imposed for certain other things.

If he's going to talk the talk he'd better be prepared to walk the walk.

[rainman]

For anyone interested, here is the actual Human Rights Watch report on Thailand:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/87403

________________________________________________________________________________

_______

Political instability and polarization continued in 2009 and occasionally resulted in violence when anti-government groups, affiliated with Thaksin Shinawatra, clashed with Thai security forces. Public pledges of the army-backed government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva (who succeeded Somchai Wongsawat in December 2008) to give priority to human rights and the restoration of democracy have largely been unfulfilled.

Political Violence

Episodes of political violence involving supporters of former prime minister Thaksin broke out throughout the year. On April 7, anti-government protests turned violent when protesters from the Thaksin-backed United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) attacked Prime Minister Abhisit's motorcade in Pattaya. The red-shirted protesters then clashed with pro-government groups in Pattaya on April 10 and 11. After UDD protesters broke into the meeting site of the summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), the summit was cancelled. In response, the government declared a state of emergency in Pattaya on April 11 and in Bangkok and surrounding provinces on April 12. UDD protesters on April 12 forced their way into the Interior Ministry in Bangkok, where Abhisit was meeting with senior government officials, and again attacked the prime minister's motorcade, dragging people from cars and beating them.

Street battles erupted in Bangkok on April 13 when UDD protesters, who had been blocking main intersections in Din Daeng district with buses and taxis, attacked approaching soldiers with guns, petrol bombs, and other improvised weapons. UDD protesters also threatened to blow up trucks with liquefied petroleum gas near residential areas and hospitals. Soldiers used teargas and live ammunition to disperse the protesters and clear the blockades; while most gunfire was into the air, some soldiers fired assault rifles directly at the protesters. Clashes spilled across Bangkok through the next day, when two members of neighborhood watch groups were shot dead in a clash with UDD protesters. At least 123 people were injured, including four soldiers wounded by gunshots.

Leaders and members of the UDD were arrested and briefly detained after the dispersal of their protests. At this writing, the UDD continues periodically to mobilize anti-government protests across the country.

On September 7 the National Counter Corruption Commission (NCCC) ruled that National Police Chief Patcharawat Wongsuwan and six other high-ranking police officers should be charged with criminal offenses and subject to disciplinary action, and criminal charges should be brought against former prime minister Somchai and then deputy prime minister Chavalit Yongchaiyut, in connection with the crackdown on protesters from the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) on October 7, 2008, when police violently dispersed about 2,000 protesters in front of parliament. Two PAD supporters died and 443 were injured; about 20 police officers were wounded.

There has been no independent and impartial investigation into politically motivated violence and human rights abuses committed by the yellow-shirted PAD during its protests in 2008, which included occupying Bangkok's Suvarnabhumi airport. Prosecutions of PAD leaders and members have been delayed amid growing public perception that the PAD is immune to legal accountability. Ultra-nationalist protesters in the network of the PAD violently clashed with villagers, who were mobilized by the Interior Ministry and local politicians, during a rally in Srisaket on September 19, 2009.

Freedom of Expression and the Media

In 2009 Thai authorities have closed down more than 18,000 websites after accusing them of promoting anti-monarchy sentiments and posing threats to national security. The charge of lese majeste (insulting the monarchy, penal code article 112) has been used against Thai citizens and foreigners, journalists and academics, bloggers and web board discussants; government critics such as Giles Ji Ungpakorn, Jakrapob Penkair, and Suchart Nakbangsai have fled or been unable to return to the country after being so charged.

Those accused have reason to fear the consequences. On January 14, 2009, Suwicha Thakor was arrested for allegedly posting lese majeste comments on the internet, and on April 3 was sentenced to 10 years in prison under article 112 and the Computer Crimes Act. On January 18 Australian author Harry Nicolaides was sentenced to three years in prison for defaming the crown prince in his 2005 novel "Verisimilitude"; he was pardoned and freed on February 19 after an international outcry. On August 28 government critic Daranee Charnchoengsilpakul (also known as Da Torpedo) was sentenced to 18 years in prison for insulting the monarchy in her speeches at a UDD rally. She was reportedly put in solitary confinement in Lard Yao prison. On March 6 Chiranuch Premchaiyaporn of online news forum Prachatai was arrested and her office raided by police. She was accused of violating the Computer Crimes Act and disseminating lese majeste content on the website in October-November 2008. She has been released on bail while the Attorney General's Office processes the case.

On November 1 Katha Pajariyapong and Theeranan Vipuchan were arrested by police for posting on the internet their comments and Thai translations of international media reports about King Bhumibol Adulyadej's poor health. They have been charged under the Computer Crimes Act with feeding false information causing harm to national security and the public. Both received bail, on condition that they must not leave Thailand while police undertake further investigation.

Abusive Anti-Narcotics Policy

Abhisit supported the reopening of investigations into the 2,819 extrajudicial killings that allegedly accompanied Thaksin's "war on drugs" in 2003. Facing strong resistance from the Royal Thai Police, which was implicated in many of these killings, slow progress has been made to bring perpetrators to justice and end systematic police brutality and abuse of power in drug suppression operations. In a positive development, in September 2009 nine police officers from Kalasin and Bangkok were charged with murder and other serious offenses related to two separate "war on drugs" cases.

The government responded to a surge in drug sales and use by resuming executions of convicted traffickers, after a six-year hiatus. Bundit Jaroenwanit and Jirawat Poompreuk, convicted in March 2001, were executed by lethal injection on August 24, 2009. TV news reported their execution minute-by-minute in reality show style.

After arrest, many drug users are subject to compulsory treatment at centers run by the military and the Interior Ministry. Each year 10,000-15,000 people are sent to such centers, where drug treatment is based on military-style physical exercise. Most people experience withdrawal from drugs while detained in prison for assessment, with little or no medical supervision or medication provided.

Violence and Abuses in the Southern Border Provinces

There were fewer reports in 2009 of abuses committed by security forces in the southern border provinces of Pattani, Yala, Narathiwat, and Songkhla, as the government appeared to take seriously the human toll and the cycle of violence that such abuses contribute to. However, gunmen from a local Aor Ror Bor militia unit were suspected of responsibility for the massacre of 10 ethnic Malay Muslims inside Al-Furquan mosque in Narathiwat's Joh Ai Rong district on June 8, 2009. Despite public commitments from the government to bring the perpetrators to justice, at this writing no arrests have been made.

Separatist groups continue to target civilians, including roadside ambushes and beheading victims or burning them to death. Some attacks were aimed at spreading terror among Buddhist Thais, or justified by insurgents as reprisal for abuses committed by Thai security forces against ethnic Malay Muslims. Insurgents burned down government schools and continued to engage in killings of teachers; many government schools were closed temporarily in response to security threats. The insurgents recruit children from private Islamic schools to participate in the armed hostilities and to serve other secondary roles, such as spying or carrying out arson attacks. In response, government security forces have at times raided private Islamic schools, and detained teachers and students for questioning.

The Attorney General's Office decided in February not to press charges against soldiers and police officers responsible for the Krue Se mosque killings on April 28, 2004, while the provincial court of Songkhla ruled on May 29 that Thai security forces were not responsible for the death of 78 ethnic Malay Muslims in the Tak Bai incident of October 25, 2004. Both decisions fly in the face of the facts and led to outrage in the Muslim community in the south. No progress was made in 2009 in the criminal prosecution of soldiers from the army's 39th Taskforce who tortured and murdered Imam Yapa Kaseng in Narathiwat's Rue Soh district on March 21, 2008.

Refugees and Migrant Workers

Thai authorities continue to violate the international principle of nonrefoulement by returning refugees and asylum seekers to countries or origin where they were likely to face persecution. Throughout 2009, Lao Hmong seeking asylum in Petchabun continued to be repatriated to Laos. Staff of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees were barred from access to Lao Hmong detention camps in Petchabun or from taking part in the refugee status determination process. There were also reports that exiled Chinese dissidents, many of them linked with Falungong, were arrested and deported to China. Ongoing raids of undocumented migrants have forced Burmese human rights and democracy activists in northern Thailand to close down their offices.

Thai authorities adopted a hard-line stance toward Rohingya boatpeople from Burma and Bangladesh. In January 2009 the National Security Council (chaired by Abhisit) ordered authorities to intercept incoming Rohingya boats and detain passengers in off-shore holding centers. After being exposed by human rights groups and the international media, the government admitted that its navy had pushed some boats laden with Rohingyas back to international waters (see also Burma chapter). Despite many public promises, Thai authorities did not conduct independent investigations into this and related allegations of abuses.

Migrant workers remain largely unprotected by Thai labor laws, making them vulnerable to arrest, extortion, and other abuse.

Human Rights Defenders

There has been little progress in official investigations into the cases of 20 human rights defenders killed during the Thaksin administration. These include the 2004 "disappearance" and presumed murder of well-known Muslim lawyer Somchai Neelapaijit, whose case was accepted by the UN Working Group on Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances in June 2005. The Justice Ministry's Department of Special Investigation has since 2006 taken over investigation of Somchai's case from the Royal Thai Police, which was implicated in his "disappearance," but still failed to determine what happened to Somchai and who was responsible.

Key International Actors

The United States, United Kingdom, Australia, and the European Union worked to promote the restoration of democracy in Thailand, and expressed strong opposition to attempts by conflicting political factions to incite a military coup and violence.

Thailand, as the chair of ASEAN for 2009, has been active in promoting a regional human rights mechanism. But these efforts have been limited by the ASEAN principles of non-interference and consensus decision making. Human rights groups have little expectation that the ASEAN Intergovernmental Commission on Human Rights could take any meaningful steps in promoting and protecting human rights.

[way2muchcoffee]

Thanks rainman. Nice to read what they actually said.

Edited January 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[animatic]

Thanks rainman. Nice to read what they actually said.

Ditto. Nothing unexpected, and not much to be pleased with on the whole.

Still some progress on some fronts and slides backwards in too many.

Still it seems better than 2004, a point they keep making backhandedly.

[CLOD]

It just shows you the sort of person this guy //deleted by Admin// really is.

That is a terrible legacy.

An honourable man would resign faced with that lot,

But his record shows there is no honour there.

abists legacy - an unelected abuser.