I Can't Cope Without My Wife In Uk

[x9739777]

I really don't know what to do - my wifes setttlement visa refused - I haven't been able to sleep for last 2 weeks, i've lost 8 kg in that time due to not eating well and I am now about to begin counselling to help me with my thoughts.

I love my wife so so much - I so wish that we had met in the UK and she wasn't an illegal entrant - but she was and I saw past that - we have been together for 3.5 years ever since. I fell in love with the woman that only ever sees the good in people and who has been a good citizen since her time here. she had a part-time job but only because I wanted her to integrate better into UK society so we could prove to the government she wouldn't be a burden when the time came. she got sick so as any good boyfriend would do - I took her to a doctor - but this is not acceptable to help a fellow human being if they aren't entitled to it. we were honest and open on the application but they have used it all against us to villify us as a demon couple who are selfishly trying to bring harm to the UK. I wish I could speak with the person who wrote the letter to show how so wrong they are. we are possibly the most loving, selfless couple (as most of the UK) who care about others wellbeing as well as each other.

we are so close - I talk to her everyday - but the thought of not being able to begin our life as we had planned for in the UK - is too much for me. all my family (and now hers) are here in the UK - I have only left once and that was to go to Thailand to meet her family and get married. I was so happy.

then 13th Jan 2010 - the letter is sent - indicating our "breaches" and that we dont have a sustainable marriage. I can't see them being overturned. we will lose everything except each other but be forced to live in poverty in Thailand. surely that can't be right! my mother and father will lose one of their 2 sons (and new daughter in law) and my brother will lose his only sibling.

we apologised for the previous breaches, explaining the mitigating circumstances as to why they occured, but was still refused.

I truly believe it I didn't have the thought that I will hold my wife again - I would have no more thoughts at all.

I am truly sorry UK Government - I wish we had fallen in love under different circumstances but we didn't - and all we ever wanted to do was prove to you we can make it as a loving family oriented couple in this country - please let us have this dream fulfilled - dont deny us this. please

please.

[louialive]

Your post is rather confusing.

What kind of visa was your wife on. How long was she in the UK.

[kennkate]

I doubt you will get the answer on here. Maybe you should seek advise, CAB might be a start. That's Free

You could write to your MP. Human rights Ect.

Of course the question of her being in the UK after her Visa expired will come up. That in itself will raise the warning flags, And that one is not good.

Good luck I don't think you are in for a smooth ride. You will certainly have to keep at it. and it will take time.

[kennkate]

That would be a start. What sort of visa was she in the UK on? and how long did she stay after it expired ?

Edited January 25, 2010 by kennkate

[7by7]

Some of your post is confusing, maybe because of your emotional state.

I so wish that we had met in the UK and she wasn't an illegal entrant - but she was and I saw past that - we have been together for 3.5 years ever since.

Did you meet her in the UK while she was here illegally? Or in Thailand after she had returned home? Or before she came to the UK and she then entered the UK illegally to be with you?

Did she return voluntarily before being discovered, voluntarily after being discovered or was she deported or removed?

all my family (and now hers) are here in the UK

What is the status of her family in the UK, that is what type of visa do they have?

It would aid in offering advice if you could post exactly what the refusal notice says (deleting names and other identifying features).

With the refusal notice you wife would have been given a form with which to appeal. This must be submitted within 28 days of the refusal. Appeals are complicated and can take a long time. I highly recommend that you seek the aid of a professional; either a grade 2 or above OISC adviser or a solicitor who specialises in immigration matters. The CAB may be able to help you find one.

You could write to your MP, but she was in the UK illegally and so this refusal is justifiable under the rules. Whether it is correct is for an appeal tribunal to decide. There is little that an MP could do except offer emotional support.

See Asylum and Immigration Tribunal for more on appeals.

Be aware that an appeal is a lengthy process and is going to take at least 6 months. You must try and be positive during this time.

[Eff1n2ret]

Why does your sub-headline say "Appeal not looking good"? Have you had legal advice to that effect? If so, there is little practical advice that anyone on this forum can offer, only commiseration. If the decision is in accordance with the Rules, you can't expect them to be changed just to suit you.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Why not try Tony at Orchid of Siam for some advice they deal with appeals within the UK.

[dmax]

you dont state why she was refused ? anyway i hope everything works out in the end for you,s contact davis khan lawyers in liverpool . or there is a free service with law society in the uk where immigration lawyers will offer you free advice and help.

[CharlieB]

By reading the original post:

1) He met her in the UK where she was already illegally living.

2) He encouraged her to get a job and work illegally.

3) He then got her to use the NHS for what sounds like a serious illness.

4) Her family are not her actual blood relatives, but his family, which he is refering to as her family.

Here's where I am guessing:

5) After 3.5 years together in the UK they leave for Thailand to marry and get her a visa for the UK.

6) They have admitted to her illegal entry and stay in the UK, illegal working etc. on the application form and been refused.

[x9739777]

Thanks all - good to know alot of the info you have written. spoken with solicitor today and feel a little more upbeat but still not great. seems that it could come down to simply whether the Judge on the day of the hearing is in a good or bad mood and whether he believes that me and my wife are genuine and in a sustainable marriage to possibly outweigh the 320 (11) breaches. as we met every other criteria of the para 281 except the sustainable marriage bit - will be gathering mountain loads of evidence to produce.

does anyone, from previous hearings, have a good checklist of evidence that can prove a 3.5 year relationship and marriage (with the intent to live together and start a family). also going to try the EHR on the right to have a family as it could be deemed unfair to expect me to move to Thailand (different culture, language, living standards, pay) but again have to ensure our positives outweighs the HOs negatives.

anyone also know what extra the HO usually brings to the tribunal? will they carry out Police checks on me and my wife (one caution nearly 10 years ago)? speak to friends and family? or are they only allow to bring new evidence to back up the existing refusal notes (i.e. not a character assassination)?

[Eff1n2ret]

......also going to try the EHR on the right to have a family as it could be deemed unfair to expect me to move to Thailand (different culture, language, living standards, pay) but again have to ensure our positives outweighs the HOs negatives.

anyone also know what extra the HO usually brings to the tribunal? will they carry out Police checks on me and my wife (one caution nearly 10 years ago)? speak to friends and family? or are they only allow to bring new evidence to back up the existing refusal notes (i.e. not a character assassination)?

Given that many thousands of Europeans live with their wives in Thailand I wouldn't hang your hat on a Human Rights claim.

There is no requirement on a settlement application form to declare a sponsoring spouse's convictions, and any attempt to adduce such evidence at an appeal would probably be regarded as irrelevant. If the applicant has unspent convictions (as defined in the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act) and fails to declare them, that would be a relevant factor.

[tigerfish]

sorry to go against the grain, but i think you and your wife are a menace to all the those couples out their that have always tried to do the wright thing.

my wife and i, like alot of other couples have had to bit the bullet and have gone through lots of hardships to get to where we are today. alot of time, effort, hard graft and money has been spent. we have had a relationship for two and a half years prior to getting married, time spent in thailand together, time spent apart working to get to get everything in place so that when the time came there would be no problems once married in obtaining her visa to go to the u.k.

when in england my wife has worked for 6 years legally in a thai restaurant, got her own national insurance number,and payed her taxes. she now has her 25 years residency visa, and is free to travel between the u.k. and thailand, without any problems.

far to often i have seen at first hand thais who have tried to bend the rules whilst staying in the u.k.

you along with any other of the t.v posters who have spent time back in britain recently, should know that their is a increasing amount of ill feeling towards foreigners wishing to abuse the system for their own personal needs and gains.

what i would suggest is moving to thailand, which would be better suited to to you and your wifes way of thinking. i.e corrupt law inforcement, and turning a blind eye to everything with the mentality permantly stuck in the "mai pen rai" mode.

i would finally like to add that your not telling us the whole story and are missing out some key important facts about your situation.

yours, not just stepped off the last banana boat.

[wordchild]

As others have said,get yourself a good UK based immigration lawyer,and ,when the time comes, barrister. I would not waste your time with agents,charities or other non-qualified indeviduals. It sounds messy but ,as its a settlement visa, the key is whether or not you can convince the judge (and your testimony in court will be key) that the relationship is genuine. Nothing else really matters.At appeal her immigration history will be used by the other side to suggest a "marriage of convenience".You need to counter this with strong evidence of the relationship, all the usual stuff photos etc + things like supporting testimony from your family/friends and esp parents can be very powerful .The judge will put much less weight on the breaches than the Home Office, and will likely focus more on the totality of the relationship evidence . On your other point, the Home office can bring up new evidence (previously held back) if it is important to the case and esp to the credibility of your or your wifes statements.I understand, this is rare and that the HO case presenters are overworked and not always best prepared. But the best thing is to assume anything adverse in your wifes history will be known and could come up, best thing is get it all out there in your and her statements.

Edited January 27, 2010 by wordchild

[Eff1n2ret]

The OP has mentioned a refusal under Para 320(11), which is the catch-all for those deemed to have contrived to "frustrate the intentions of the Immigration Rules", i.e.not only entered illegally or overstayed, but committed some further misdemeanour in relation to their immigration status. The instructions to ECOs gives the following list of examples, but says it is not limited to those:-

"Aggravating circumstances can include actions such as:

absconding;

not complying with temporary admission / temporary reporting conditions / bail conditions;

not complying with reporting restrictions;

failing to comply with removal directions (RDs) after port refusal of leave to enter (RLE);

failing to comply with RDs after illegal entry;

previous working in breach on visitor conditions within short time of arrive in the UK (ie pre-meditated intention to work);

previous recourse to NHS treatment when not entitled;

previous receipt of benefits (income, housing, child, incapacity or otherwise) or NASS benefits when not entitled;

using an assumed identity or multiple identities;

previous use of a different identity or multiple identities for deceptive reasons;

vexatious attempts to prevent removal from the UK, eg feigning illness;

active attempt to frustrate arrest or detention by UK Border Agency or police;

a sham marriage / marriage of convenience / polygamous marriage in the UK;

harbouring an immigration offender;

facilitation / people smuggling;

escaping from UK Border Agency detention;

switching of nationality;

vexatious or frivolous applications;

not complying with re-documentation process.

All cases must be considered on their merits, the activities considered in the round to see whether they meet the threshold under paragraph 320 (11), taking into account family life in the UK and, in the case of children, the level of responsibility for the breach."

So the applicant's case will hinge on what she got up to whilst illegally in the UK, and whether the ECO is judged to have adequately taken into account her marriage to the OP. As he has divulged nothing of the actual reasons for refusal, any estimate of her chances is pure speculation.

By the way, I didn't understand this from Tigerfish:- "she now has her 25 years residency visa"

[spongeman]

sorry to go against the grain, but i think you and your wife are a menace to all the those couples out their that have always tried to do the wright thing.

my wife and i, like alot of other couples have had to bit the bullet and have gone through lots of hardships to get to where we are today. alot of time, effort, hard graft and money has been spent. we have had a relationship for two and a half years prior to getting married, time spent in thailand together, time spent apart working to get to get everything in place so that when the time came there would be no problems once married in obtaining her visa to go to the u.k.

when in england my wife has worked for 6 years legally in a thai restaurant, got her own national insurance number,and payed her taxes. she now has her 25 years residency visa, and is free to travel between the u.k. and thailand, without any problems.

far to often i have seen at first hand thais who have tried to bend the rules whilst staying in the u.k.

you along with any other of the t.v posters who have spent time back in britain recently, should know that their is a increasing amount of ill feeling towards foreigners wishing to abuse the system for their own personal needs and gains.

what i would suggest is moving to thailand, which would be better suited to to you and your wifes way of thinking. i.e corrupt law inforcement, and turning a blind eye to everything with the mentality permantly stuck in the "mai pen rai" mode.

i would finally like to add that your not telling us the whole story and are missing out some key important facts about your situation.

yours, not just stepped off the last banana boat.

Very helpful advice there - not.

[Thongkorn]

sorry to go against the grain, but i think you and your wife are a menace to all the those couples out their that have always tried to do the wright thing.

my wife and i, like alot of other couples have had to bit the bullet and have gone through lots of hardships to get to where we are today. alot of time, effort, hard graft and money has been spent. we have had a relationship for two and a half years prior to getting married, time spent in thailand together, time spent apart working to get to get everything in place so that when the time came there would be no problems once married in obtaining her visa to go to the u.k.

when in england my wife has worked for 6 years legally in a thai restaurant, got her own national insurance number,and payed her taxes. she now has her 25 years residency visa, and is free to travel between the u.k. and thailand, without any problems.

far to often i have seen at first hand thais who have tried to bend the rules whilst staying in the u.k.

you along with any other of the t.v posters who have spent time back in britain recently, should know that their is a increasing amount of ill feeling towards foreigners wishing to abuse the system for their own personal needs and gains.

what i would suggest is moving to thailand, which would be better suited to to you and your wifes way of thinking. i.e corrupt law inforcement, and turning a blind eye to everything with the mentality permantly stuck in the "mai pen rai" mode.

i would finally like to add that your not telling us the whole story and are missing out some key important facts about your situation.

yours, not just stepped off the last banana boat.

I agree in principal, But He is trying to put right the situation, and yes not helpful. But How many (falang) men Bring there girl over with good intentions , then it goes pear shaped, the Thai lady knows she has a better life in the UK and trys to stay. Would anybody not try and live in a better Environment. Judge all cases on there own merits.

[hhgz]

"we apologised for the previous breaches..."

Ah, then all is well. "We're sorry we got involved in illegal shenanigans, that we lied, cheated, and stole...but we never lost our integrity!"

I'm reminded of Steve Martin's excuse of "I forgot". Didn't you know it was illegal to sneak in a country? Hey, I forgot! Didn't you know that it was illegal to work? Hey, I forgot! Didn't you know it was against the law to kill someone? Hey, I forgot!

[tigerfish]

The OP has mentioned a refusal under Para 320(11), which is the catch-all for those deemed to have contrived to "frustrate the intentions of the Immigration Rules", i.e.not only entered illegally or overstayed, but committed some further misdemeanour in relation to their immigration status. The instructions to ECOs gives the following list of examples, but says it is not limited to those:-

"Aggravating circumstances can include actions such as:

absconding;

not complying with temporary admission / temporary reporting conditions / bail conditions;

not complying with reporting restrictions;

failing to comply with removal directions (RDs) after port refusal of leave to enter (RLE);

failing to comply with RDs after illegal entry;

previous working in breach on visitor conditions within short time of arrive in the UK (ie pre-meditated intention to work);

previous recourse to NHS treatment when not entitled;

previous receipt of benefits (income, housing, child, incapacity or otherwise) or NASS benefits when not entitled;

using an assumed identity or multiple identities;

previous use of a different identity or multiple identities for deceptive reasons;

vexatious attempts to prevent removal from the UK, eg feigning illness;

active attempt to frustrate arrest or detention by UK Border Agency or police;

a sham marriage / marriage of convenience / polygamous marriage in the UK;

harbouring an immigration offender;

facilitation / people smuggling;

escaping from UK Border Agency detention;

switching of nationality;

vexatious or frivolous applications;

not complying with re-documentation process.

All cases must be considered on their merits, the activities considered in the round to see whether they meet the threshold under paragraph 320 (11), taking into account family life in the UK and, in the case of children, the level of responsibility for the breach."

So the applicant's case will hinge on what she got up to whilst illegally in the UK, and whether the ECO is judged to have adequately taken into account her marriage to the OP. As he has divulged nothing of the actual reasons for refusal, any estimate of her chances is pure speculation.

By the way, I didn't understand this from Tigerfish:- "she now has her 25 years residency visa"

it is a resident permit. settlement, with indefinite leave to remain in the u.k.

[paully]

Let's not veer into the abusive towards the OP.

I think we can all agree he (plus she)'s not gone about it in quite the right way and that the appeal will be a tricky one based on what we can surmise so far, despite his solicitor making him feel 'more upbeat'.

My ha'pennoth of advice? The OP needs to work on the genuine and sustainable marriage issue - clearly this was not believed in the original application and a lot of evidence plus argument will be needed to turn this around. At least the OP's wife admitted her previous breaches, so she has a ghost of a chance of success.

Edited January 27, 2010 by paully

[7by7]

The OP and his wife are aware of the previous breaches of immigration law, and are now suffering the consequences. The rules do allow for settlement in situations like this and it is now up to an immigration tribunal to decide if they have a genuine case or not.

Any further posts lambasting the OP for his wife's past misdemeanors will be deemed as flaming and deleted.

[7by7]

By the way, I didn't understand this from Tigerfish:- "she now has her 25 years residency visa"

it is a resident permit. settlement, with indefinite leave to remain in the u.k.

Indefinte Leave to Remain is, as the name suggests, indefinite. That is there is no time limit.

Can I ask where you got this 25 years from?

[tigerfish]

By the way, I didn't understand this from Tigerfish:- "she now has her 25 years residency visa"

it is a resident permit. settlement, with indefinite leave to remain in the u.k.

Indefinte Leave to Remain is, as the name suggests, indefinite. That is there is no time limit.

Can I ask where you got this 25 years from?

what so im a liar now! when my wife recieved her passport back from sheffield, were the permit was issued. it came via courier in a large envelope with a load of paper work containing the terms and contitions. i clearly remember reading about the fact that there would be some kind of review process after 25 years(much like a driver in the u.k. may be asked to retake a driving test, when their licience expires). along with information like, she may stay outside of the u.k. for no more than 2 years at any one time otherwise the permit would be revoked.

why would i make something like this up, mr moderator?

[wordchild]

there is no such thing as a 25 year review of ILR you may have missread the information that was sent to you

Edited January 27, 2010 by wordchild

[louialive]

Is the marriage to someone in the UK who is here illegaly, valid. Just curious as I assume the OP and his wife married in the UK. How would that have been possible without all the legal paperwork and visa?

[khundon]

tigerfish wrote

"what so im a liar now! when my wife recieved her passport back from sheffield, were the permit was issued. it came via courier in a large envelope with a load of paper work containing the terms and contitions. i clearly remember reading about the fact that there would be some kind of review process after 25 years(much like a driver in the u.k. may be asked to retake a driving test, when their licience expires). along with information like, she may stay outside of the u.k. for no more than 2 years at any one time otherwise the permit would be revoked.

why would i make something like this up, mr moderator?"

Was the passport she received back from Sheffield her Thai passport, or was it a new British passport?

If it was British passport then she can leave the UK for as long as she likes and she will be allowed back in the UK, no problem.

If she has not got a UK passport, then, once she has passed LIUK test, she can apply for one after the correct time period, as she has ILR.

Edited January 27, 2010 by khundon

[CharlieB]

Is the marriage to someone in the UK who is here illegaly, valid. Just curious as I assume the OP and his wife married in the UK. How would that have been possible without all the legal paperwork and visa?

They didn't marry in the UK:

I have only left once and that was to go to Thailand to meet her family and get married.

[louialive]

Is the marriage to someone in the UK who is here illegaly, valid. Just curious as I assume the OP and his wife married in the UK. How would that have been possible without all the legal paperwork and visa?

They didn't marry in the UK:

I have only left once and that was to go to Thailand to meet her family and get married.

Appologies forget that was said. I assume the marriage was while the visa was still valid

[7by7]

what so im a liar now!......why would i make something like this up, mr moderator?

No one has called you a liar nor accused you of making anything up. Search the topic.

However, ILR is indefinite and this means there no time limit on a holders stay in the UK; although it can lapse as you describe. I have never heard of anyone, including my wife and step-daughter, having a time limit placed on their ILR, nor can i find anything in the immigration rules or any other UKBA publication to suggest that there is one.

Therefore, I feel that you must be mistaken in your interpretation of the letter.

However, I am prepared to accept that it may be I who is mistaken.

Maybe you could post the letter's contents here or provide a link to the relevant part of the immigration rules or any other UKBA publication to clear this matter up?

[7by7]

Is the marriage to someone in the UK who is here illegaly, valid. Just curious as I assume the OP and his wife married in the UK. How would that have been possible without all the legal paperwork and visa?

They didn't marry in the UK:

I have only left once and that was to go to Thailand to meet her family and get married.

Appologies forget that was said. I assume the marriage was while the visa was still valid

For information; it would be impossible for anyone who is an overstayer in the UK, or otherwise in the UK illegally, to legally marry in the UK.

Not all visa categories allow the holder to marry in the UK, and in order to do so they would need to present evidence that their immigration status allowed them to or obtain a certificate of approval from the Home Office. Neither of which would be possible were one in the UK illegally.

[tigerfish]

what so im a liar now!......why would i make something like this up, mr moderator?

No one has called you a liar nor accused you of making anything up. Search the topic.

However, ILR is indefinite and this means there no time limit on a holders stay in the UK; although it can lapse as you describe. I have never heard of anyone, including my wife and step-daughter, having a time limit placed on their ILR, nor can i find anything in the immigration rules or any other UKBA publication to suggest that there is one.

Therefore, I feel that you must be mistaken in your interpretation of the letter.

However, I am prepared to accept that it may be I who is mistaken.

Maybe you could post the letter's contents here or provide a link to the relevant part of the immigration rules or any other UKBA publication to clear this matter up?

fair enough 7by7! i have already asked the good lady if she has all the relavant paperout here in bangkok. no was the reply, its all back in the u.k.

sorry for jumping your throat. my appologies.