Red Shirt leaders pledge non-violent campaign

[rixalex]

I don't think the reds are daft enough these days to be drawn into violence on the streets by the elite.

Thats just the type of excuse the elites would want to cut the guns loose on the peasants, poor, and uneducated.

The elites want less red votes in the box, one way or another, then they dont have to coup.

Although it has always worked in the past for the elite, things have changed and the reds now have ways of expressing thailands elite ways to the world.

The thai elites ways are being exposed to the international community, for the first time, and more than a few eyebrows raised

No ,the way forward for the reds is to keep on harrassing and exposing this illigitimate military junta appointed government and judiciary to the democratic international community, democratic international court, and democratic human rights abuse court.

The reds now have ways to get the message out, and up to now are doing a grand job.

Abisit is already up before the human rights watch court, keep up the agitating, and the winkling out , and the exposing of the elite wrong doers, and make sure abisit stays there.Keep exposing the hypocrasy and double standards of the elites.

Abisit has to have elections sooner rather than later, then maybe the country can be returned to democracy, untill then keep exposing the elites, and keep abisit in the human rights watch court, where he belongs.

9 on the "elite" count. Good job.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

See my other post on this. It does not refer to financial wealth directly. Thaksin himself uses the phrase 'military-bureaucratic elite' when talking about the powers opposing democracy. That's what people mean with elite. Feel free to suggest a better term.

Nice of you by the way to completely ignore his points but agitage against verbiage. And even that without expressing why you find fault with the word! If you're doing a post without saying anything, why bother at all?

Edited February 28, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Moonrakers]

 Thaksin himself uses the phrase '......................

Contrary to what you might think, that adds no credibility to your post.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Contrary to what you might think, the above post doesn't contain any points of view or perspectives that I or anyone else could comment on. I'm exploring and explaining to you why people use the word elite and what is meant by it. I encourage you to take the discussion further by either agreeing with it, or stating why you disagree. You did neither, so you might as well enter an empty post?

So I'll just re-state my earlier point, (realizing full well that we didn't move forward one inch in the discussion): Feel free to suggest a better term. I'm sticking with MBE. (Military-Bureaucratic Establishment; that should make everyone happy because I dropped the word elite! (I'm an optimist) )

Edited February 28, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[brahmburgers]

Concern for the Issanites is not exclusively the realm of Thaksin and his supporters. Politics is fluid. Ideas come and go and resurface again. Thaksin did express concern for those in Issan, and along with lots of money channeled to Pu Yai Ban(s), he parlayed that supposed support for the downtrodden in to a large block of voters. Some of whom are still behind him, some aren't. If Abhisit and his friends express concern for those in Issan (and elsewhere), he could be partially influenced by political events which took place 7 years ago, but more likely he's aware of the demographics of governing a country with diverse regions, and the importance of showing concern for all Thais, whether downtrodden or not. If the disenfranchised Thais who can't vote (100's of thousands of hill tribers) were able to vote, Thaksin and Abhisit and all the other politicians would be showing concern for them also.

Fact remains, the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive in their entire existence. They've made numerous threats of big rallies, but haven't had any in 11 months. They're extrememely jealous of the Yellows because, even though they try to copy the Yellow's tactics of large effective demonstrations, they can't manifest anything remotely as effective. Threats, threats, threats ....that's what the Big Bad Wolf did in fairytale land, and the Reds are about as effective as that wolf - who was all bluff.

Really? How about changing the complete landscape and agenda of Thai politics, ensuring that the Thai majority can no longer be ignored and patronised, prompting the current government to replicate and even enhance TRT "populist" policies.

Read my post again, and you'll see see I used the adjective 'positive' when asserting that "the Reds haven't accomplished anything positive". As for "affecting the landscape and agenda of Thai politics" (your words), yes the Reds have done that, but so have newspaper editors, letter to the Editor writers, Nuclear Plant advocates/resistors, Climate change believers/non-believers, and a whole host of other outspoken people.

What positive initiatives have the Reds even proposed (let alone accomplished) in the past year? Nothing.

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation. In Thailand, political power = big money. So the Red movement is banking on Thaksin re-gaining control, so that more money will flow their way. Thus far they've been betting on the wrong horse, but at least the wages are still coming in. When the wages dry up, so will the movement.

Edited March 1, 2010 by brahmburgers

[jayboy]

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation.

And so in a few ill chosen words you join the ranks of those - extremists all - that nobody serious pays any attention to.Even Thaksin's most powerful political enemies don't talk in such an ill informed way, not least because they know that the red movement represents a powerful social force that can't be ignored.

[yoshiwara]

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation.

And so in a few ill chosen words you join the ranks of those - extremists all - that nobody serious pays any attention to.Even Thaksin's most powerful political enemies don't talk in such an ill informed way, not least because they know that the red movement represents a powerful social force that can't be ignored.

Certainly the Bangkok neighbourhood attacked by Red goons armed with baseball bats last year would no doubt tip their hats to the reds as a 'social force'. For the red apologists to paint the corrupt Thaksin as an enemy of 'elites' is disengenuous at best. What Thaksin wants (and wanted) was to put in his own elite. Since he has little support in the industrial centre the class forces supporting him remain subsidiary and condemn him to a continuing marginal presence. He came in on the wave of an economic crisis. The current crisis is abating. That is why he is screwed. Schoolboy reds prattling on about 'new politics' doesn't change reality one iota.

Edited March 1, 2010 by yoshiwara

[jayboy]

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation.

And so in a few ill chosen words you join the ranks of those - extremists all - that nobody serious pays any attention to.Even Thaksin's most powerful political enemies don't talk in such an ill informed way, not least because they know that the red movement represents a powerful social force that can't be ignored.

Certainly the Bangkok neighbourhood attacked by Red goons armed with baseball bats last year would no doubt tip their hats to the reds as a 'social force'. For the red apologists to paint the corrupt Thaksin as an enemy of 'elites' is disengenuous at best. What Thaksin wants (and wanted) was to put in his own elite. Since he has little support in the industrial centre the class forces supporting him remain subsidiary and condemn him to a continuing marginal presence. He came in on the wave of an economic crisis. The current crisis is abating. That is why he is screwed. Schoolboy reds prattling on about 'new politics' doesn't change reality one iota.

Whistling in the dark I'm afraid.Talk of schoolboy reds prattling really underlines the intellectual impoverishment of your position..It's fortunate that the current political leadership is wiser than those who think (a) it's a zero sum game ( it's all about one man.They know that the reds represent a potent social force and are struggling to win at least a part of it over.

As to Thaksin you may well be right about his motivation, but that's not really the point.The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.In essence the new politics that upsets you so much flows from this undeniable reality.Incidentally I suspect you are wrong in assuming little support for Thaksin (or at the parties associated with him) in the industrial areas.You talk about class forces without explanation. so I won't comment on that aspect.

[otherstuff1957]

Go on reds, give them hel_l!

I'll save the mods the trouble of editing my reply to this comment:

Only a (deleted) would say something like this.

[rixalex]

The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.

That's quite a statement coming from the most patronising person on this forum.

[jayboy]

The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.

That's quite a statement coming from the most patronising person on this forum.

Yes there's a certain irony that someone so clearly from an elite background can be so hard on a dominant elite.So far I haven't lost any sleep over this troubling dilemma.

[Cayenne]

Just saw on the breaking news that the red shirts have stopped a football match between Chaiyaphum and Buri Ram. The Thai football bloggers are criticizing them being unable to differentiate between sport and politics.

[brahmburgers]

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation.

And so in a few ill chosen words you join the ranks of those - extremists all - that nobody serious pays any attention to.Even Thaksin's most powerful political enemies don't talk in such an ill informed way, not least because they know that the red movement represents a powerful social force that can't be ignored.

Certainly the Bangkok neighbourhood attacked by Red goons armed with baseball bats last year would no doubt tip their hats to the reds as a 'social force'. For the red apologists to paint the corrupt Thaksin as an enemy of 'elites' is disengenuous at best. What Thaksin wants (and wanted) was to put in his own elite. Since he has little support in the industrial centre the class forces supporting him remain subsidiary and condemn him to a continuing marginal presence. He came in on the wave of an economic crisis. The current crisis is abating. That is why he is screwed. Schoolboy reds prattling on about 'new politics' doesn't change reality one iota.

Whistling in the dark I'm afraid.Talk of schoolboy reds prattling really underlines the intellectual impoverishment of your position..It's fortunate that the current political leadership is wiser than those who think (a) it's a zero sum game ( it's all about one man.They know that the reds represent a potent social force and are struggling to win at least a part of it over.

As to Thaksin you may well be right about his motivation, but that's not really the point.The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.In essence the new politics that upsets you so much flows from this undeniable reality.Incidentally I suspect you are wrong in assuming little support for Thaksin (or at the parties associated with him) in the industrial areas.You talk about class forces without explanation. so I won't comment on that aspect.

Jayboy, I challenge you to articulate one tangible and/or positive thing the Reds have accomplished in the past 11 months. They did a signature drive and submitted it. Other than that, I can't think of anything of substance. All I've seen/heard from the Reds is threats and bellyaching - that's what guys get from jilted ex-wives. Have the Reds proposed any detailed working plans for strengthening Thailand's economy? Have they proposed any policies on power generation/conservation? Have they proposed any ideas to assist disenfranchised hill tribe people? What have they done to alleviate the suffering of poorly documented workers? The list of what they haven't addressed could go on and on for pages. They're like a one trick pony. Their basic act is to make threats in order for their leader to get back power and they all amass lots more money on his coattails.

If they really have a political agenda, then they could work within the political arena. Find which of their people would make the best candidates, and put them forth in the next election cycle.

If they keep focusing only on resurrecting Thaksin and his family, they're going to continue to be roundly disappointed.

[RegularReader]

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation.

And so in a few ill chosen words you join the ranks of those - extremists all - that nobody serious pays any attention to.Even Thaksin's most powerful political enemies don't talk in such an ill informed way, not least because they know that the red movement represents a powerful social force that can't be ignored.

Certainly the Bangkok neighbourhood attacked by Red goons armed with baseball bats last year would no doubt tip their hats to the reds as a 'social force'. For the red apologists to paint the corrupt Thaksin as an enemy of 'elites' is disengenuous at best. What Thaksin wants (and wanted) was to put in his own elite. Since he has little support in the industrial centre the class forces supporting him remain subsidiary and condemn him to a continuing marginal presence. He came in on the wave of an economic crisis. The current crisis is abating. That is why he is screwed. Schoolboy reds prattling on about 'new politics' doesn't change reality one iota.

Whistling in the dark I'm afraid.Talk of schoolboy reds prattling really underlines the intellectual impoverishment of your position..It's fortunate that the current political leadership is wiser than those who think (a) it's a zero sum game ( it's all about one man.They know that the reds represent a potent social force and are struggling to win at least a part of it over.

As to Thaksin you may well be right about his motivation, but that's not really the point.The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.In essence the new politics that upsets you so much flows from this undeniable reality.Incidentally I suspect you are wrong in assuming little support for Thaksin (or at the parties associated with him) in the industrial areas.You talk about class forces without explanation. so I won't comment on that aspect.

Jayboy, I challenge you to articulate one tangible and/or positive thing the Reds have accomplished in the past 11 months. They did a signature drive and submitted it. Other than that, I can't think of anything of substance. All I've seen/heard from the Reds is threats and bellyaching - that's what guys get from jilted ex-wives. Have the Reds proposed any detailed working plans for strengthening Thailand's economy? Have they proposed any policies on power generation/conservation? Have they proposed any ideas to assist disenfranchised hill tribe people? What have they done to alleviate the suffering of poorly documented workers? The list of what they haven't addressed could go on and on for pages. They're like a one trick pony. Their basic act is to make threats in order for their leader to get back power and they all amass lots more money on his coattails.

If they really have a political agenda, then they could work within the political arena. Find which of their people would make the best candidates, and put them forth in the next election cycle.

If they keep focusing only on resurrecting Thaksin and his family, they're going to continue to be roundly disappointed.

As much as I agree with the general sentiments of your comments, aren't these issues things which should be addressed by a political party - err, such as the Peu Thai Party ?

And as they are supposed to be allies, they should therefore be working, to get them to focus on these issues as a good "opposition paty" would normally do, in a "democratic" country, instead of the selfish and revenge seeking agenda, of one man.

Edited March 1, 2010 by RegularReader

[anotherpeter]

If they keep focusing only on resurrecting Thaksin and his family, they're going to continue to be roundly disappointed.

I couldn't agree more. The sooner the Reds start developing plans for improving Thailand, rather than trying to get Thaksin back here, the sooner that they will get some results.

There is a lot of evidence that Thaksin abused his power while Prime Minister. There is also evidence of corruption by other powerful people in Thailand. And there is obvious corruption within ALL levels of Thai society (not everyone is corrupt, but there is corruption).

There are a lot of people within both the Reds and the Yellows that are fighting against the corruption on the other side. Maybe they should come together (Oranges??) and protest against ALL the corruption. Then they might really get democracy.

[rixalex]

The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.

That's quite a statement coming from the most patronising person on this forum.

Yes there's a certain irony that someone so clearly from an elite background can be so hard on a dominant elite.So far I haven't lost any sleep over this troubling dilemma.

I wasn't accusing you of being from an "elite" background, just of being patronising in the tone of a lot of your posts, but it's interesting that you seem to feel the two go hand in hand.

[rixalex]

There are a lot of people within both the Reds and the Yellows that are fighting against the corruption on the other side. Maybe they should come together (Oranges??) and protest against ALL the corruption. Then they might really get democracy.

Great idea.

[Credo]

Oh please, I am already limited in the colors I can wear--don't take orange away too.

One point that is being overlooked by a lot of posters is that the red-shirts is an anti-government group and as such it attracts a lot of fringe groups which are simply unhappy about a great many things. This includes quasi-delinquent teens with motorcycles who would gladly raise hel_l for any group who would let them.

[Cayenne]

Oh please, I am already limited in the colors I can wear--don't take orange away too.

One point that is being overlooked by a lot of posters is that the red-shirts is an anti-government group and as such it attracts a lot of fringe groups which are simply unhappy about a great many things. This includes quasi-delinquent teens with motorcycles who would gladly raise hel_l for any group who would let them.

Exactly! So with such "quasi-delinquent teens with motorcycles" among their numbers the red shirts should just simply stop pretending like they are really for democracy and call themselves the United Front for Anarchists and Thaksinistas (UFAT). At least it'll stop confusing the everyday Thai layman on what democracy is (yes, the PAD too. They should change their names too).

[Credo]

The point is that these fringe groups do not belong to the reds. They take orders from no one. You might want to review a little history of anti-government demonstrations historically. They start including a lot of different groups, and they don't have a central control.

Even now the reds are pretty factionalized. Some groups have a democratic agenda and aren't interested in Thaksin. Others are completely pro-Thaksin and would easily return to the era in which he ruled with some rather undemocratic means.

Like the poo thrower at Abhisit's house, there are lots of people who will take advantage of the situation and they aren't really 'red'.

[way2muchcoffee]

Like the poo thrower at Abhisit's house, there are lots of people who will take advantage of the situation and they aren't really 'red'.

That is true. On the other hand the bomb throwers could very well be red... or yellow, or blue, or green, or brown, or none of the above. As someone mentioned before we will not know until someone or multiple people have been arrested.

Edited March 1, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[yoshiwara]

They're basically a shrinking group of antagonizers who are paid/cajoled/pressured to campaign for one man and his family. Their ineffective campaign has very little to do with democracy or the rights of the downtrodden, and a whole lot to do with money. ....oh, and the seizure of power through threats and intimidation.

And so in a few ill chosen words you join the ranks of those - extremists all - that nobody serious pays any attention to.Even Thaksin's most powerful political enemies don't talk in such an ill informed way, not least because they know that the red movement represents a powerful social force that can't be ignored.

Certainly the Bangkok neighbourhood attacked by Red goons armed with baseball bats last year would no doubt tip their hats to the reds as a 'social force'. For the red apologists to paint the corrupt Thaksin as an enemy of 'elites' is disengenuous at best. What Thaksin wants (and wanted) was to put in his own elite. Since he has little support in the industrial centre the class forces supporting him remain subsidiary and condemn him to a continuing marginal presence. He came in on the wave of an economic crisis. The current crisis is abating. That is why he is screwed. Schoolboy reds prattling on about 'new politics' doesn't change reality one iota.

Whistling in the dark I'm afraid.Talk of schoolboy reds prattling really underlines the intellectual impoverishment of your position..It's fortunate that the current political leadership is wiser than those who think (a) it's a zero sum game ( it's all about one man.They know that the reds represent a potent social force and are struggling to win at least a part of it over.

As to Thaksin you may well be right about his motivation, but that's not really the point.The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.In essence the new politics that upsets you so much flows from this undeniable reality.Incidentally I suspect you are wrong in assuming little support for Thaksin (or at the parties associated with him) in the industrial areas.You talk about class forces without explanation. so I won't comment on that aspect.

Never mind Thaksin's motivation, it is his actions which have seen him convicted as a criminal and no amount of fake pompous wriggling on a stick can divert attention from the primary commitment of red apologists to defend Thaksin. Sorry that some reds on the forum do not appear to understand the term class. This is what happens when you have studied at a so-so university.

Edited March 1, 2010 by yoshiwara

[jayboy]

The critical factor is that the majority can no longer be patronised and ignored.

That's quite a statement coming from the most patronising person on this forum.

Yes there's a certain irony that someone so clearly from an elite background can be so hard on a dominant elite.So far I haven't lost any sleep over this troubling dilemma.

I wasn't accusing you of being from an "elite" background, just of being patronising in the tone of a lot of your posts, but it's interesting that you seem to feel the two go hand in hand.

Interesting that you think in terms of "accusing" someone for being of an elite background, as though it was an undesirable stigma.Strange also how so often those who are hyper sensitive about being looked down on by elite types in their home culture tend to grovel before their Thai equivalents.

[jayboy]

Never mind Thaksin's motivation, it is his actions which have seen him convicted as a criminal and no amount of fake pompous wriggling on a stick can divert attention from the primary commitment of red apologists to defend Thaksin. Sorry that some reds on the forum do not appear to understand the term class. This is what happens when you have studied at a so-so university.

"Fake pompous wriggling on a stick".Love it!

I'm not familiar with Soso University.Is it in Japan? Don't understand your comment on "class" I'm afraid.

Are you perhaps saying that most red activists support Thakin? I think you may be on to something here.Jolly well observed and well done for telling us all about it.

[rixalex]

I wasn't accusing you of being from an "elite" background, just of being patronising in the tone of a lot of your posts, but it's interesting that you seem to feel the two go hand in hand.

Interesting that you think in terms of "accusing" someone for being of an elite background, as though it was an undesirable stigma.

A patronising manner is something i would acccuse somebody of. Being of elite background is something i wouldn't. I wouldn't acccuse them, as i didn't accuse you, because it's not something i consider to be an undesirable stigma. Hope that clears that up for you.

Strange also how so often those who are hyper sensitive about being looked down on by elite types in their home culture tend to grovel before their Thai equivalents.

I'm not hyper sensitive about being looked down on by elite types in their home culture as you imply, nor am i inclined to grovel to all but the prettiest of girls - i simply object to pompous know-it-alls.

[mca]

i simply object to pompous know-it-alls.

Yeah where is animatic these days? He's usually all over these threads like a rash.

[jayboy]

I'm not hyper sensitive about being looked down on by elite types in their home culture as you imply, nor am i inclined to grovel to all but the prettiest of girls - i simply object to pompous know-it-alls.

Fair enough."Pompous know-it-all" is marginally preferable to "fake pompous wriggling on a stick.'

[hammered]

However peaceful their intentions may be, the problem the red shirts have is the specter of Songkhran past, and a few smaller and usually regional but well known violent events hang over any rally leaving them having to overstate they will be peaceful. One of their leaders being caught on film advocating bringing petrol to Bangkok also does not help. The very factional nature of the grouping is also problematic with nobody haivbng control over all including maybe even Thaksin now.

All of these problems they face are of course going to be used and emphasised by their opponents.

This is the nature of the PR strategy in the run up to the big demo and it will affect numbers and who the public blame if there is violence. It is a very important PR game and truth cannot be expected from any side in it.