Any One Been To Burma?

[sriracha john]

There is currently a USA State Dept. warning all Americans delay ALL

non-essential travel to Burma.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, to put things in to perspective, there are currently USA State Dept warnings (and also from other countries, eg Australia's DFAT) to avoid non-essential travel to a LOT of different countries, for a LOT of reasons.

The warnings should be read with some view of common sense, western governments would be negligent NOT to post some kind of warning for certain countries, no matter how small the perceived risks.

You could possibly put this in to perspective by stating WHY Americans are warned to delay non-essential travel to Myanmar/Burma. ie for what specific reasons? the recent bombs? bandits on the border? malaria? poor quality in-flight food on the national airline??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As to the why, for anyone that doesn't know:

On May 7, 2005, three large bombs exploded simultaneously in Rangoon, at two crowded shopping areas frequented by foreigners and at a trade center, killing at least twenty people and wounding several hundred others. On April 26, 2005, an explosive device detonated at a busy market in Mandalay, killing at least two people. Both events were a significant departure in terms of targeting and level of sophistication from other bombings that have occurred in recent years.

Furthermore, Burma's military junta has claimed that a global “superpower” was behind the three near-simultaneous bomb explosions. If the Burma military believes that the USA is responsible, it's safe to assume they may not be friendly right now with American tourists.

Sorry, I don't have any information on the in-flight food, but on the topic of forced labor:

The victims of Rangoon's junta range from villagers forced to work on agricultural land confiscated by the military to those compelled to ''provide compulsory cash contributions, in addition to their labour,'' the report released Wednesday by the International Labour Organisation (ILO) states.

''Forty-five persons from each village (in the western Rakhine State) had to work on gravel provision or bridge construction projects each day,'' adds the report, 'A global alliance against forced labour.'

The forms of forced labour that prevails mostly in the rural parts of that South-east Asian country also include men, women, children and the elderly being compelled by the army to porter for them, perform sentry duty and build and repair roads, according to the report. ''If villagers refuse to comply with orders, they can be subject to threats, imprisonment and violence.''

Such record of abuse by the junta is unparalleled in the world, officials from the Geneva-based U.N. labour agency said.

Additionally, a 600-page report - "Dying Alive: A Legal Assessment of Human Rights Violations in Burma." describes victims' statements, photographs, maps and film, purports to have documented slave labor, systematic rape, the conscription of child soldiers, massacres and the deliberate destruction of villages, food sources and medical services.

"Typically," the writer said, "the army will move into a village, confiscate anything of value, slaughter the animals, and destroy the cooking pots and looms. The village is burned and usually mined. The inhabitants are relocated to a new site, usually with inadequate food and water, where they're forced into labor schemes such as road-building. In the long run, many just can't survive."

"I kept coming across traumatized people - ragged, terrified and on the run. Many of them had wounds. Almost every conversation began with, 'When they came and burned the village.' At one village, two toddlers had been thrown into the flames, and a baby shot in its father's arms."

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Sorry, but as for me, I think I'll forego any trips to Burma .... for now, anyway.

[yeti]

We never questionned exactions from the military junta (too many concording reports), but we are more debating about the impact of tourism in such a country (sorry to the OP, it was not your original question).

Will a responsible tourist help the junta with the money given, or help more the population with the money spent ?

Will the use of forced labour increase to build infrastructure for tourists, or decrease because this is not the kind of things you do in front of foreigners ?

I don't have answers (I don't think anybody has answers to those questions), just a belief that some tourists can do more good than harm.

[SeaVisionBurma]

Sorry, but as for me, I think I'll forego any trips to Burma .... for now, anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problems friend. When you feel the need, Burma will still be here. With still the same extremes of negative and positive media....

anyone else??

[PeaceBlondie]

As little as I know about the 20th century history of South Africa, I think the measures against apartheid, including various boycotts against South African trade and tourism, eventually did far more good than harm, bringing an end to apartheid more than the violence used by the ANC. The example of the embargo against Iraq is quite different, and immaterial to the discussion about Burma. The USA imposed a totally immoral embargo against food, medicine, and sanitation facilities being sent to Iraq after they had bombed the country, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died because of those embargo, aided by the biggest criminal of all, their ruthless dictator. The USA should have done things very differently, but it doesn't relate to Burma.

Some questions, since I don't know the answer: if I go on my own to do tourism in Myanmar, how do I know I'm not staying at hotels or riding on roads that were built with slave labor? How do I know my payments don't indirectly end up in the junta's pocket? Even on my visa runs to Tachilek, do I now have to pay the entry fee in US greenbacks so the junta has hard dollars to buy its weapons?

Lastly, I have enough respect for Aung San Suu Kyi that I'd like to honor her request for us not to travel there.

[SeaVisionBurma]

Some questions, since I don't know the answer: if I go on my own to do tourism in Myanmar, how do I know I'm not staying at hotels or riding on roads that were built with slave labor?  How do I know my payments don't indirectly end up in the junta's pocket?  Even on my visa runs to Tachilek, do I now have to pay the entry fee in US greenbacks so the junta has hard dollars to buy its weapons?

Lastly, I have enough respect for Aung San Suu Kyi that I'd like to honor her request for us not to travel there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry I must have missed the point about South Africa - but can't see how it relates to here...

More answers (well, maybe only my opinions) to your questions:

- how do I know I'm not staying at hotels or riding on roads that were built with slave labor?

Hotels - highly unlikely, would be very hard for a construction company at the behest of a builder to use slave labor for a hotel.

Roads - why don't you check with your sources (whereever it is you have read that slave labor builds the roads in Myanmar) and ask them for specific road names and locations. (think also about the relationship of building roads in rural areas to poor economies in developing countries)

- How do I know my payments don't indirectly end up in the junta's pocket?

Use your common sense. If you are actually coming here for a visit, you will know when you are spending your funds as to how they are being used.

- Even on my visa runs to Tachilek, do I now have to pay the entry fee in US greenbacks so the junta has hard dollars to buy its weapons?

Yes, you have to pay your entry fees in hard currency, most (from my knowledge I would say all) payments to government departments by foreigners are received in hard currency. This is the norm in most developing countries.

Are your particular payments going directly to purchase weapons?? Get real. Do some research on tourist arrivals in Myanmar, and estimated govt spend on military hardware vs overall expenditure - then prove that your individual payment went directly through the pockets of the generals in charge to be used on weapons purchase.......

Are we missing the point here>>??

Meadish_sweetball is pretty close on the money (pardon the pun) for his observations. Ask yourself who really benefits from an embargo in a controversial country, and make your own judgement as to how best to spend your money so that the average Joe Bloke will be benefitting from the tourist dollar....

[udon]

Sorry I must have missed the point about South Africa - but can't see how it relates to here...

The embargo against SA worked and ended apartheid and may work on Burma.

I too go along with Aung San Suu Kyi's request NOT to spend hard currency in her country.

I would love to visit Burma, but not until the junta goes.

[sriracha john]

Why the ruling army junta, the State Peace and Development Council wants more tourists to come to Burma is no secret. The generals themselves declare that gaining hard currency is their prime motivation. They also hope that a large influx of international tourists will raise global respectability and credibility for a military dictatorship with one of the world's worst human rights records.

Little-visited and relatively unspoiled by mass tourism, Burma is now promoted as a new and exotic holiday destination. Some people argue that increased tourism in Burma will open the country to liberalizing influences. But most visitors have scant opportunity to discover the realities of everyday life in Burma. Most meet few ordinary Burmese. Even chance encounters are constrained by the people's fear of military intelligence agents, whose pervasive presence is a principal tool of the junta's harsh rule. The army's tight control keeps genuine interaction between Burmese and visitors to a minimum. Tourism profits rarely reach ordinary people. The army itself is a partner in many tourist ventures, and some hotel projects are suspected to be fronts for laundering profits from Burma's burgeoning heroin trade.

Groups promoting democracy in Burma urge tourists to stay away from the country and boycott the junta's tourist drives. Many travel agents and tour operators have publicly declared that they will not book or operate tours to Burma. These efforts have apparently been effective; the occupancy rate at Burma's top hotels is under forty percent. Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, Nobel Peace Prize winner and leader of Burma's democracy movement, agrees that tourists should not visit Burma until there is a restoration of democratic rule. "We think it is too early for either tourists or investment or aid to come pouring into Burma," she told visitors to her Rangoon residence.

[sriracha john]

- why don't you check with your sources (whereever it is you have read that slave labor builds the roads in Myanmar) and ask them for specific road names and locations. 

Some specifics from the U.N. and I.L.O. and some thoughts by Aung San Suu Kyi :

Large-scale forced labor has been reported on several major tourist development projects, including the rebuilding of the moat surrounding the Golden Palace in Mandalay, the construction of a new dam at scenic Inle Lake in Southern Shan State, the laying of a railway line near Pagan's temple complex, and the building or upgrading of airports around the country to accommodate passenger jets for tour groups. The United Nations and human rights organizations have documented the harsh conditions and often brutal treatment that accompany forced labor in Burma today. The junta's efforts to attract tourists "is responsible for a lot of forced labor," Aung San Suu Kyi has observed, ". . . for building up facades that will look impressive for the tourists." An International Labour Organization report provides evidence of forced labor on tourism development projects and goes on to conclude, "There is abundant evidence…showing the pervasive use of forced labour imposed on the civilian population throughout [burma] by the authorities and the military…"

[IMA_FARANG]

Hi any and all information about getting to Burma would be appriciated. I know nothing as of yet about the place. We will start from Bangkok.

It will be 2 men holding USA passports and would like to go on a low budget trip for 30 days.

We like natural places and natural  food/ fruits as well and if there is a nice snorkeling place that would be great too.

OK all ears let me know what cha think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are some stories I've heard about Burma.

First of all, it is a fascinating country and has many things to see

BUT......

1. My Burmese friend Mrs K--- (won't give whole name) who lives in Thailand told me she was visted by repersentative from military junta a couple of years ago. Her family was quite wealthy back in 30's, but had most of their land confiscated by Socialist government after WWII. The junta offered her chance to restart family business in Burma. Were willing to give her land back, if she agreed to business deal with military. Mrs K asked about people (several hundred) who now live on her family's former land (squatters). Military said,"Don't worry about them, if we need to we can use the soldiers to throw them off the land." Mrs K said no to deal.

2. If you go to cinema in Rangoon (Yangoon now?) be sure to bring stool so you can keep your feet up. That's because of the rats running around the cinema.

3. Hope you enjoy veggies. Meat is expensive and hard to find. So it is curries, rice, and veggies. Had a friend come back from Burma and ordered biggest steak they had in BKK guesthouse. Hadn't been able to eat any meat in about two weeks in Burma.

4. But if you're young, adventurous, and willing to tolerate that kind of stuff; you might enjoy Burma.

5. If I was 25 instead of 55, I might be willing to go for a visit.

[yeti]

3. Hope you enjoy veggies. Meat is expensive and hard to find. So it is curries, rice, and veggies. Had a friend come back from Burma and ordered biggest steak they had in BKK guesthouse. Hadn't been able to eat any meat in about two weeks in Burma.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, the food in Myanmar was awful. I wouldn't say expensive, but all the food has a lot of fat so that they can keep it a longer time.

4. But if you're young, adventurous, and willing to tolerate that kind of stuff; you might enjoy Burma.

5. If I was 25 instead of 55, I might be willing to go for a visit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was 25 when I went there, and enjoyed it (excepting being sick with the food )

[sonnyJ]

I'm sounding like the advice in the tour guide, "Let's Go Thailand" but - you can't travel that much in Mayanmar without contributing a substantial amount of your own money to one of the most despotic governments in the world.  Would you have visited Germany in 1939 if you'd known what the Nazis were doing, and that your money went to them?  That's almost a fair analogy.

Up to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can travel a lot and cheap, there's many restricted zones which you will need a permition and a gov. guide, thats a different story and more expensive.

(This is 2002).

Great scenery on mountains in Shan states.

Have a great time.

[sonnyJ]

Hey I don’t know all the facts for sure but I see Thailand as having a few problems here as well!

At least I hear in Burma there are no KFCs, Burger Kings and Mc Donalds etc allowed.

I think those types of places and many more are destroying Thailand from the inside out and much more dangerous if you ask me regarding the general health of the population.

Also such things as the cell phone microwave signals and other toxic transmitters (not to mention all the toxic sprays and poisons which Thais liberally cover this country with day in and day out) which are blasting us all, 24 /7, theses are quite upsetting to me too.

Maybe worse for us and Thailand than Hitler’s projects which only killed 4-5 million I was informed.

So what about you, are you supporting such places and projects here in Thailand, directly or indirectly?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure, there's many problems in Thailand.

But you go to far, bunch of buffalo crap to me.

[kat]

The "only" was referring to the fact that the toxic industries in Thailand will end up killing far more people than this number and very quickly too.

Is this clear?

I think I expressed my personal views which you might not agree with but possibly don’t have all the facts quite straight.

Maybe you could open your eyes to a bigger picture of what is happening around you?

Time will tell though and I would bet I am right on the money too.

Name calling should not be allowed here and think the Mods are not acting responsible on this matter!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

right, this has gone downhill far enough, I'm not even entering the above debate... why don't you all slug it out on PM?

Steve2UK - it's not all rosey here, but that's a bit much isn't it?  I have a close friend in the situation you describe above, but it's easy to make comments like that from outside the country.

Travel in Myanmar is possible, and can be an enlightening experience if approached with an open mind and some sensitivity to daily life. 

Flame me for anything else, but not for trying to give advice on travel here short of me giving you the wrong bus company number or something.....

peace!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't have time to read all of the posts here and only read up to page 2, so I apologize if I'm a little out of sync.

I've done plenty of research on Burma and have worked with Burmese migrants and activists extensively, and almost all have asked me not to go to Burma.

I am not judging people who decide to go, because that is a personal matter and not a clear-cut issue, but please don't suger-coat the situation. Yes, you can spend money to some extent with local people, and they love to talk to foreigners, mostly at their own risk, but you will never see the occupied ethnic areas in Eastern Burma, the land confiscations, the rapes, extortion, and complete subjugation of the entire population except for the military and governmental elites, most of whom are de facto drug traffickers.

At any rate, regardless of your rationale, you cannot escape the fact that the tourist infrastructure which you use (hotels, roads) has been constructed by forced labor.

Good day.

[SeaVisionBurma]

"...please don't suger-coat the situation...."

"At any rate, regardless of your rationale, you cannot escape the fact that the tourist infrastructure which you use (hotels, roads) has been constructed by forced labor."

Good day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So by your logic, Kat - there is not a single inch of a travellers journey in Myanmar that has not been built by forced labor (you said it is a fact that tourist infrastructure including hotels and roads is built by forced labor).

I am not in any way supporting wrongdoers in this or any other country, but I have enough of a grip on reality to see what I said in no way constitutes a 'sugar coating' on life here. I live here. Have done for some years. I see the good and the bad. Someone asked for travel advice. People do travel here.

Spare me the outside view on the country, I have heard it, and taken it on board with everything else I have seen here. If you have travelled here yourself, fine. If not, there's no logic in lecturing me from a one-sided perspective.

[kat]

I thought I qualified my comments by saying " ... I am not judging people who decide to go, because that is a personal matter and not a clear-cut issue ... "

I didnt have time to read earlier comments, including your post which in part states: " ... More answers (well, maybe only my opinions) to your questions:

- how do I know I'm not staying at hotels or riding on roads that were built with slave labor?

Hotels - highly unlikely, would be very hard for a construction company at the behest of a builder to use slave labor for a hotel.

Roads - why don't you check with your sources (whereever it is you have read that slave labor builds the roads in Myanmar) and ask them for specific road names and locations. (think also about the relationship of building roads in rural areas to poor economies in developing countries)

- How do I know my payments don't indirectly end up in the junta's pocket?

Use your common sense. If you are actually coming here for a visit, you will know when you are spending your funds as to how they are being used."

I therefore retract my former wording of "sugar-coating"; I think you are an outright apologist for the junta if you make unfounded and unsubstantiated comments such as your statements above.

And to answer your question - I cannot catalogue "every" hotel that has been constructed with forced labor. No one can, except for the government who conscripted them and the people who were forced or extorted for tax. What I can say is that it is a widely-used and documented practice within the country.

As to your being a "superior" witness because you live inside the country, I much rather base my facts on the people within the inside - those that have escaped, witnessed, or been a victim of : gang-rape by the military (and often on military property), pillaging, land confiscation, forced relocation sites in abandoned villages, starvation, forced labor, crippling rice and crop taxes on their paddy and produce, rampant money laundering and drug revenues, and other forms of abuse that assures Burma a top-5 ranking on the list of tyrannical governments.

How would you like me to substantiate this post? By referring you to the hundreds of refugees and migrants that I have interviewed? I'd love to, but guess what - they are either in jail or a forced relocation site in Thailand better known as a refugee camp with no rights. Better yet, why don't you read material that has been produced by NGOs, the UN, researchers, and the refugees themselves. I can point you to some material and websites if needed. (start with Christina Fink, License to Rape, and a bunch of research reports produced by various ethnic groups like Karen state - can't remember at the moment but will supply the names if necessary).

In this case, living inside the country affords you no advantage to the reality of the situation whatsoever.

[SeaVisionBurma]

aaah forget it!

edited to remove any conciliatory remarks posted earlier.

Mods, close the thread please.

Edited May 25, 2005 by SeaVisionBurma

[Rinrada]

Kat, I solemnly apologise.  It seems I have offended your completely unbiased view on the country.  However I suspect you still have some issues.

This thread should be closed.  What started out as a travel question turned into an ugly emotional synopsis on Burma's human rights record.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a travel item I feel that this thread has run its course and reluctantly I will now close it.

Burma as a political issue will of course and quite rightly so refuse to simply "Go-Away"but I think with the intense emotional aspects of this "synopsis" and under these circumstances further opinions and discussions could be addressed more constructively in another place (under another heading)

My personal opinion is fairly obvious on this subject but as moderator on a travel "thread" the subject should remain and be seen to be.....informative,interactive and err.......fun.