Organic Food Is A Lie And A Con

[ironhut]

"Lie and a Con" is a bit harsh...although my Food Science degree has me agreeing with much of what is posted.

Organic foods need optimum conditions with maximum maintenance (environmentally specific and costly to produce).

In an ideal system, there is no argument nutritionally between organic foods and massed produced engineered crops. Organic foods free of pesticides are low risk and offer max vitamins/minerals.

However......the most important aspect of crop production is the ability to produce foods at a HIGH YIELD with MAXIMUM SHELF LIFE in varying conditions. Unfortunately the world is not a cornucopia full of a bountiful harvest. Countries like Africa, South America, India, etc. (where people are on the brink of starvation) offer some of the poorest conditions. In these areas, pesticides and preservatives are an absolute must. If they are not used, some of the deficiencies are much worse than any risk associated with a pesticide or preservative.

Bottom line......you show me the slide where the pesticides and/or preservatives cause harm when consumed and I'll show you the slide where millions suffer from mal-nutrition (or die) due to inefficient production means (organics) and lack of food.

Preservatives and pesticides (although not perfect) increase the yield/shelf life by double-digit multiples. In countries where people are starving with poor farming conditions, the last thing we need is to be perfect when volume (with shelf life) is what is needed.

[welo]

LOL. Nice type of mine.

cucumber?

typO - dam_n, what's wrong with me!?

[Foreverford]

LOL. Nice type of mine.

cucumber?

typO - dam_n, what's wrong with me!?

I was going to jump in long ago but I guess now is the time. The original post was not really about pesticides it was some fellow stating categorically the örganics" is a sham.

But first to address the entire pesticide thing. The use of them are in many areas that a marginal growing areas for the crops that they are asttempting. Organics definitely does best in the areas where the crops are grown do very well. For example apples do much better in an area that is just touched by an occasional snow. If you try to grow them in the Los Angeles California area you are going to have real problems. To get optimum organic foods know your foods and the areas that they grow best and then search out your organic sources from there and enjoy. Unless you are the original poster or should I say Imposter, as it may be, as he can go to any hyper-mart and satisfy his food and taste requirements with perfect looking tasteless tomatoes.

The original poster can be educated by just looking at this link( http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dD...=STELDEV3003507 ) Just to read this specific info, let alone the entire text from the USDA will take a bit of time because quite a few people understand the need for organics and obviously so does the USDA, as this link shows. Just like your medicines and other things that are critical your your well-being the organic industry is highly highly regulated now. I helped to write the first legislation for the State Of California in the late 70's as everyone was using the word organics to try to cash in on something they had no concept of except that it could possibly help them make an extra buck. Organically raised foods are critical for some peoples lives and they now have many many more assurances that foods from organically "certified" farmer organisations meet all US and International standards based on their certifying bodies.

I'd like somebody to tell me that chem produced tomatoes could ever come close to Soidogs in Buri Ram'. Well a bit of Choke dee, we all can use a bit of good luck, for the guy who started this as he is a real dreamer but unfiortunately it appears that his view is going to create a bit of nightmares for his health. Forever Fords

[Samuian]

There was a case in Germany where some Farmer fell dead off the trailer of his truck because he used a very little or not diluted version of some very toxic chemical to spray timber.....

And there is always periods BEFORE harvest when the last time can be sprayed i the "west" it is controlled and one can make claims but out here?

I would be VERY careful - Doi Kham is residue free, cause they don't use any chemicals.... it says on the packages...

If you can peel it, peel, if not wash it!

[Token]

Unless you are the original poster or should I say Imposter, as it may be, as he can go to any hyper-mart and satisfy his food and taste requirements with perfect looking tasteless tomatoes.

Tasteless tomatoes often arise from the post-harvest storage conditions and particularly from premature harvesting so that the flavour components develop off the plant rather than on it - and they do less well that way. Premature harvesting when the fruits have not fully ripened is used to get the fruits to market, often over long distance, before overipening sets in along with too much softening and mould growth. It reduces post-harvest losses and hence makes the fruit cheaper in the long run. It's got little if anything to do with chemical use and chemicals are not an issue here. So the argument that tasteless fruit is caused by synthetic chemicals is part of the organic myth.

[Token]

I am still waiting for an answer to my previous question as to how many people here would trust any kind of health labels, including 'organic' on produce grown and marketed in Thailand.

[rice555]

Hello FF, I see the OP has not reposted to say more about his thoughts, however you bring up other things

that have no case against his opinion. Case in point, growing apples in the "LA area", what's that got to do with anything he said, or OG farming? They do grow veges in Antarctica, but no dirt. Same with your 2 comments on tomatoes, way off base. There is a difference buying from a store(one that doesn't advertise as OG) and out of your garden. If the same verity of seed was used from the non-OG farm and the OG farm, there's going to be little difference, except the price, no?

What you

It's not that the poster, "can be educated" as you say, by the regs., that's not what he's talking about the way I read his post, you might reread it with a half open mind instead, and reply with a positive rebut.

Also, Quoting you:

"I'd like somebody to tell me that chem produced tomatoes could ever come close to Soidogs in Buri Ram'."

All of my toms are grown with chemical fertilizer, no dirt, just ground up organic matter, and I try not to use chems to spray for bugs/fungi's, only as a last ditch effort. In a blind taste testing of the "same verity", same seed, from the same seedman, you couldn't tell the difference!

Again, just because it says "OG" doesn't make it taste better. To go further on that, I bought at "The Hyper

Mart", The Mall Korat, two different tom's, again, "not the same verity", but to see how they tasted.

You can see them in the two pictures. No you can't beat homegrown, but if you've read the TV threads about tom's and the problems people have growing them, so it's either buy at the hyper mart or do without for some.

Both are from the CM/ north area of LOS. The hydro was B.43.50 for see the picture for weight. The OG were B.41.25 for .358Kg.(109@K hydro - 115@K OG).

I don't mind if the hydro tom's were sprayed at a time in their growing cycle if needed, I doubt that they were over sprayed, I've met the grower, he's a Pro, he's set up most of the biggest hydro farms in LOS.

This picture is my old hydro bags from last season with I think, a Black Cherry, that I walked by(not seen)

till I took the pic. Coir and rice hulls, it got it's first nutes a few minutes later, now taller and doing great.

Since you brought up the reg's. pdf, would Soidogs be tom's be OG under this reg or not?

§ 205.204 Seeds and planting stock practice standard.

(a) The producer must use organically grown seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock: Except, That,

(1) Nonorganically produced, untreated seeds and planting stock may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced variety is not commercially available, Except, That, organically produced seed must be used for the production of edible sprouts;

(2) Nonorganically produced seeds and planting stock that have been treated with a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced or untreated variety is not commercially available;

(3) Nonorganically produced annual seedlings may be used to produce an organic crop when a temporary variance has been granted in accordance with § 205.290(a)(2);

(4) Nonorganically produced planting stock to be used to produce a perennial crop may be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced only after the planting stock has been maintained under a system of organic management for a period of no less than 1 year; and

(5) Seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock treated with prohibited substances may be used to produce an organic crop when the application of the materials is a requirement of Federal or State phytosanitary regulations.

The last question I have is what is the LA area? I'm from Nor Cal, to me every thing S. of the top of The Grapevine is the LA area.

Rice555

Southern California

The Southern California coast extends from San Diego to San Luis Obispo and includes Santa Barbara, Ventura, western portions of Los Angeles County and Orange County and San Diego. The Southern California coast is influenced by the Pacific Ocean and has a mild climate due to the marine air. Summers are moderate in temperature and coastal fog is common. Hot, dry winds, known as 'Santa Ana’s' can be damaging here and in the inland areas of Southern California. Inland Southern California includes Riverside, San Bernardino, Pasadena, Glendale, Burbank, the San Fernando Valley, Ojai Valley, and Santa Paula. The interior is more subject to hot, dry desert air than the coast and is considerably warmer. Annual rainfall along the northern coast can be as high as 16 inches in Santa Barbara and as low as 9 inches in San Diego. Droughts are not uncommon, and all crops are irrigated. The main temperate fruit and nut crops grown commercially in this region are apple, macadamia, olive, peach, persimmon, and English walnut. Since winters along the Southern California coast and interior are usually mild and often frost-free, temperate tree fruit varieties with low winter chill requirements are usually chosen because the low latitudes in this region receives a more limited number of total hours at 45℉, which are necessary to mature fruit, than other regions in the state.

[rice555]

Hello Samuian, was that live trees or cut up trees he was spraying or going to spray? If this was a non-farm incident, it can be very misleading statement. The use and handling of any chemical or hazards material, people need to be properly trained. One item I see here in LOS, we had restriction of it's use back in 1967,

later in the 80's, the use got more restricted, even the used rags had a special fireproof wast can and the guy that picked up the used rags, had to have haz-maz training, and they had to go to a special dump site You can buy it here in most home improvement/paint stores by the gal. (MEK)

When I was in Cub Scouts way back then(1954), we went on a field trip to SJO airport,(San Jose) and met a crop duster and got to see his plane. He crashed a couple of times before, that I know about, one time not far from my house. He was spraying strawberry's and lost power and crashed into a stack of 50Lb. lugs (wood fruit box's) from a prune orchard. When I was in high school, he fell over dead next to his plane at San Jose airport. Too much exposure over the years with NO PROTECTION, he had just tried to unclog a valve in the chem tank on the plane, his bare arm almost up to the shoulder, I wonder how many times this happened?

Education and training in the use of anything, is a must. Just look at moto's in LOS for an example.

rice555

[Foreverford]

Hello Samuian, was that live trees or cut up trees he was spraying or going to spray? If this was a non-farm incident, it can be very misleading statement. The use and handling of any chemical or hazards material, people need to be properly trained. One item I see here in LOS, we had restriction of it's use back in 1967,

later in the 80's, the use got more restricted, even the used rags had a special fireproof wast can and the guy that picked up the used rags, had to have haz-maz training, and they had to go to a special dump site You can buy it here in most home improvement/paint stores by the gal. (MEK)

When I was in Cub Scouts way back then(1954), we went on a field trip to SJO airport,(San Jose) and met a crop duster and got to see his plane. He crashed a couple of times before, that I know about, one time not far from my house. He was spraying strawberry's and lost power and crashed into a stack of 50Lb. lugs (wood fruit box's) from a prune orchard. When I was in high school, he fell over dead next to his plane at San Jose airport. Too much exposure over the years with NO PROTECTION, he had just tried to unclog a valve in the chem tank on the plane, his bare arm almost up to the shoulder, I wonder how many times this happened?

Education and training in the use of anything, is a must. Just look at moto's in LOS for an example.

rice555

My next door neighbor, where I grew up, had family with farms in Idaho. All the crop duster pilots became very ill there and died young from pesticide related problems, they knew about it and just were unfortunate enough to think that this was part of their trade. It surely was. Eyes are one of the major issue with most applications. Everybody usually uses some form of breathing protection, but it is very very common to not see any or bare minimal eye protection throughout time. I was licencsed by the State of California as an applicator of pesticides out of necessity when I was building and rebuilding golf courses and it was so common to have the guys who were experienced in applying the 'cides to have a little mask and no eye-gear. They never worked with me without a long lecture on the use and need of proper eye care. Try to remember that whatever you are spraying or dusting into the air, organic, or not, to try to keep the eyes shielded as you are much much more susceptible to intake through the eyes than you are of getting it through your mouth and down into the lungs. As a young kid not even in my teens I used to drive my grandma's old Cletrac track laying tractor through the apples and walnuts as my dad would be spraying from our old wooden spray rig. It seemed like no matter how early in the am we started the wind would always pick up the day we sprayed and I can remember the sweet smells of Diazanon and using 2-4-D now because it was the legal version of the same thing that got outlawed just before. My dad dropped dead at 50 as his heart just shrivelled up to nothing and I'm sure it wwas due to the pesticides that he had been exposed to over his life, I can remember him dripping in the stuff when the winds were strong the hose was too short and we had to finish today because he was back in school to teach the next day for a week and we couldn't miss this one of way too many sprays for the year. Fortunately for the original poster of this topic he can get his daily dose of what he thinks is the benefits of all this modern use of pesticides by buying shiny bright mega-corporate apples in any of the big mega-super-markets. I'm sure Dutch Shell and Exxon must own 100's of thousands, if not millions, of acres of US farm land so he will always have many sources to get his fill of his life sustaining 'cides. Oh and just in case he reads this (he hasn't had the courtesy to respond to any of our responses) were just writing these responses because we base our life on lies and conning folks that what's what organic is all about, so thanks buddy for keeping us doing what we do best

[Foreverford]

Hello FF, I see the OP has not reposted to say more about his thoughts, however you bring up other things

that have no case against his opinion. Case in point, growing apples in the "LA area", what's that got to do with anything he said, or OG farming? They do grow veges in Antarctica, but no dirt. Same with your 2 comments on tomatoes, way off base. There is a difference buying from a store(one that doesn't advertise as OG) and out of your garden. If the same verity of seed was used from the non-OG farm and the OG farm, there's going to be little difference, except the price, no?

What you

It's not that the poster, "can be educated" as you say, by the regs., that's not what he's talking about the way I read his post, you might reread it with a half open mind instead, and reply with a positive rebut.

Also, Quoting you:

"I'd like somebody to tell me that chem produced tomatoes could ever come close to Soidogs in Buri Ram'."

All of my toms are grown with chemical fertilizer, no dirt, just ground up organic matter, and I try not to use chems to spray for bugs/fungi's, only as a last ditch effort. In a blind taste testing of the "same verity", same seed, from the same seedman, you couldn't tell the difference!

Again, just because it says "OG" doesn't make it taste better. To go further on that, I bought at "The Hyper

Mart", The Mall Korat, two different tom's, again, "not the same verity", but to see how they tasted.

You can see them in the two pictures. No you can't beat homegrown, but if you've read the TV threads about tom's and the problems people have growing them, so it's either buy at the hyper mart or do without for some.

Both are from the CM/ north area of LOS. The hydro was B.43.50 for see the picture for weight. The OG were B.41.25 for .358Kg.(109@K hydro - 115@K OG).

I don't mind if the hydro tom's were sprayed at a time in their growing cycle if needed, I doubt that they were over sprayed, I've met the grower, he's a Pro, he's set up most of the biggest hydro farms in LOS.

This picture is my old hydro bags from last season with I think, a Black Cherry, that I walked by(not seen)

till I took the pic. Coir and rice hulls, it got it's first nutes a few minutes later, now taller and doing great.

Since you brought up the reg's. pdf, would Soidogs be tom's be OG under this reg or not?

§ 205.204 Seeds and planting stock practice standard.

(a) The producer must use organically grown seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock: Except, That,

(1) Nonorganically produced, untreated seeds and planting stock may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced variety is not commercially available, Except, That, organically produced seed must be used for the production of edible sprouts;

(2) Nonorganically produced seeds and planting stock that have been treated with a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced or untreated variety is not commercially available;

(3) Nonorganically produced annual seedlings may be used to produce an organic crop when a temporary variance has been granted in accordance with § 205.290(a)(2);

(4) Nonorganically produced planting stock to be used to produce a perennial crop may be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced only after the planting stock has been maintained under a system of organic management for a period of no less than 1 year; and

(5) Seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock treated with prohibited substances may be used to produce an organic crop when the application of the materials is a requirement of Federal or State phytosanitary regulations.

The last question I have is what is the LA area? I'm from Nor Cal, to me every thing S. of the top of The Grapevine is the LA area.

Rice555

Southern California

The Southern California coast extends from San Diego to San Luis Obispo and includes Santa Barbara, Ventura, western portions of Los Angeles County and Orange County and San Diego. The Southern California coast is influenced by the Pacific Ocean and has a mild climate due to the marine air. Summers are moderate in temperature and coastal fog is common. Hot, dry winds, known as 'Santa Ana's' can be damaging here and in the inland areas of Southern California. Inland Southern California includes Riverside, San Bernardino, Pasadena, Glendale, Burbank, the San Fernando Valley, Ojai Valley, and Santa Paula. The interior is more subject to hot, dry desert air than the coast and is considerably warmer. Annual rainfall along the northern coast can be as high as 16 inches in Santa Barbara and as low as 9 inches in San Diego. Droughts are not uncommon, and all crops are irrigated. The main temperate fruit and nut crops grown commercially in this region are apple, macadamia, olive, peach, persimmon, and English walnut. Since winters along the Southern California coast and interior are usually mild and often frost-free, temperate tree fruit varieties with low winter chill requirements are usually chosen because the low latitudes in this region receives a more limited number of total hours at 45℉, which are necessary to mature fruit, than other regions in the state.

Hi 555 I am truly a fool as i hadn't read the other posts before I posted my last one and i really should have addressed the issue you had brought up. I spent over an hour and a half doing it and was probably two minutes from sending it and as i was resting with my handsnowhere near the keyboard the entire site was wiped off the computer. I'm in the Us on a personal computer not in a thai internet cafe. This is the third time this has happend to me and i will never respond here agin without putting it in another format and then transferring it to here. It is ugly to see that much time and effort just dissolve and be gone. so sorry for not responding properly originally to your questions as i really spelled out what i was trying to convey in a rather complete and i felt positive way. ugly what this site has been doing, this really hurt because it wasn't really fun to have to spell all this out but was definitely educational. I don't know when I'll have the want or desire to try it again but hopefully soon maybe. good on you to try to reduce your 'cides to a minimum.

[Foreverford]

Hello FF, I see the OP has not reposted to say more about his thoughts, however you bring up other things

that have no case against his opinion. Case in point, growing apples in the "LA area", what's that got to do with anything he said, or OG farming? They do grow veges in Antarctica, but no dirt. Same with your 2 comments on tomatoes, way off base. There is a difference buying from a store(one that doesn't advertise as OG) and out of your garden. If the same verity of seed was used from the non-OG farm and the OG farm, there's going to be little difference, except the price, no?

What you

It's not that the poster, "can be educated" as you say, by the regs., that's not what he's talking about the way I read his post, you might reread it with a half open mind instead, and reply with a positive rebut.

Also, Quoting you:

"I'd like somebody to tell me that chem produced tomatoes could ever come close to Soidogs in Buri Ram'."

All of my toms are grown with chemical fertilizer, no dirt, just ground up organic matter, and I try not to use chems to spray for bugs/fungi's, only as a last ditch effort. In a blind taste testing of the "same verity", same seed, from the same seedman, you couldn't tell the difference!

Again, just because it says "OG" doesn't make it taste better. To go further on that, I bought at "The Hyper

Mart", The Mall Korat, two different tom's, again, "not the same verity", but to see how they tasted.

You can see them in the two pictures. No you can't beat homegrown, but if you've read the TV threads about tom's and the problems people have growing them, so it's either buy at the hyper mart or do without for some.

Both are from the CM/ north area of LOS. The hydro was B.43.50 for see the picture for weight. The OG were B.41.25 for .358Kg.(109@K hydro - 115@K OG).

I don't mind if the hydro tom's were sprayed at a time in their growing cycle if needed, I doubt that they were over sprayed, I've met the grower, he's a Pro, he's set up most of the biggest hydro farms in LOS.

This picture is my old hydro bags from last season with I think, a Black Cherry, that I walked by(not seen)

till I took the pic. Coir and rice hulls, it got it's first nutes a few minutes later, now taller and doing great.

Since you brought up the reg's. pdf, would Soidogs be tom's be OG under this reg or not?

§ 205.204 Seeds and planting stock practice standard.

(a) The producer must use organically grown seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock: Except, That,

(1) Nonorganically produced, untreated seeds and planting stock may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced variety is not commercially available, Except, That, organically produced seed must be used for the production of edible sprouts;

(2) Nonorganically produced seeds and planting stock that have been treated with a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced or untreated variety is not commercially available;

(3) Nonorganically produced annual seedlings may be used to produce an organic crop when a temporary variance has been granted in accordance with § 205.290(a)(2);

(4) Nonorganically produced planting stock to be used to produce a perennial crop may be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced only after the planting stock has been maintained under a system of organic management for a period of no less than 1 year; and

(5) Seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock treated with prohibited substances may be used to produce an organic crop when the application of the materials is a requirement of Federal or State phytosanitary regulations.

The last question I have is what is the LA area? I'm from Nor Cal, to me every thing S. of the top of The Grapevine is the LA area.

Rice555

Southern California

The Southern California coast extends from San Diego to San Luis Obispo and includes Santa Barbara, Ventura, western portions of Los Angeles County and Orange County and San Diego. The Southern California coast is influenced by the Pacific Ocean and has a mild climate due to the marine air. Summers are moderate in temperature and coastal fog is common. Hot, dry winds, known as 'Santa Ana's' can be damaging here and in the inland areas of Southern California. Inland Southern California includes Riverside, San Bernardino, Pasadena, Glendale, Burbank, the San Fernando Valley, Ojai Valley, and Santa Paula. The interior is more subject to hot, dry desert air than the coast and is considerably warmer. Annual rainfall along the northern coast can be as high as 16 inches in Santa Barbara and as low as 9 inches in San Diego. Droughts are not uncommon, and all crops are irrigated. The main temperate fruit and nut crops grown commercially in this region are apple, macadamia, olive, peach, persimmon, and English walnut. Since winters along the Southern California coast and interior are usually mild and often frost-free, temperate tree fruit varieties with low winter chill requirements are usually chosen because the low latitudes in this region receives a more limited number of total hours at 45℉, which are necessary to mature fruit, than other regions in the state.

Hi 555 I am truly a fool as i hadn't read the other posts before I posted my last one and i really should have addressed the issue you had brought up. I spent over an hour and a half doing it and was probably two minutes from sending it and as i was resting with my handsnowhere near the keyboard the entire site was wiped off the computer. I'm in the Us on a personal computer not in a thai internet cafe. This is the third time this has happend to me and i will never respond here agin without putting it in another format and then transferring it to here. It is ugly to see that much time and effort just dissolve and be gone. so sorry for not responding properly originally to your questions as i really spelled out what i was trying to convey in a rather complete and i felt positive way. ugly what this site has been doing, this really hurt because it wasn't really fun to have to spell all this out but was definitely educational. I don't know when I'll have the want or desire to try it again but hopefully soon maybe. good on you to try to reduce your 'cides to a minimum.

Wow 555 here i go again to put it all down in words but I'm doing it offsite and will never type directly again on thaivisa as I'm not a big fan of the keyboard and I can't take Thaivisa swallowing it up.

Let's get clear about "organic". It appears most people truly do need to be educated and it is obvious that you are extremely willing to do so as you took the time to read and study the info I put out there. fortunately the laws nowdays are rather voluminous and that protects the consumers (the original poster included). You can ascertain from the laws that to sum up what organic truly is, in a simple form, is that it is sustainable agriculture. It really isn't about not using chems and poisons. Organic basically could be defined as the never-ending process of improving soil quality. If you had land that you grew nothing but corn and cotton on for ten years and never used any chems or poisons it wouldn't qualify as an "organic" farm becuse you would be making the soil into a death patch depletely it of all its fertility. My other text, that was deleted, was a bit more involved but that is what we'll look at for now as the definig of organic and hopefully it is clear. Organic isn't about just pesticide free it is a philosophy of continual improvement of the soil and sustainability. This just can't be accomplished with modern chemical farming techniques as salts and poisons have no place in the process of revitalizing and improving the mother we call earth.

Your point of taste of tomatoes from identical seeds is what I'll try to address now. i would like to see if anyone would even think that the farm next to mine that is a sticky grey colored soil that has been chem'd and poisoned for more than the last ten years is going to produce tomatoes that taste as good as my adjacent plot that has been improved with chicken and kwai manure, multiple crops of green manure, bio-char and compost annually and is a lovely brown color with nice structure and tilth. The test could be done but with the same seeds or seedlings and exactly the same growing conditions I don't think there would be a chance that the depleted heavy sticky soil is going to produce anything that is going to come near what will come from our organic sustainable farm. It is conjecture but by looking at rice yields and health of the plants through all stages of growth their is no comparison between the farms and the difference is getting more and more as time goes on.

I will have to agree with you in regards to a planting and taste test on a neutral site with organic and non-organic methods employed that in the first year you might not be able to notice a difference in the two tomatoes. the point is that in organic you are going to have a farm that is constantly improving it's fertility where the chem is going in the other direction so in the long term you will get better food for you (quaranteed better for you because no chems and poisons) and consistently better tasting over the long term due to the improving soil conditions. My family's farm has been doing it for over a thousand years in Italy and the wine and olive oil is superb.

thanks for the geography/climate analysis of LA as i feel like you do that south of the Grapevine is definitely LA. My point was this, organic farming does best in areas where the climate is suited to the crops you are trying to grow (especially if you are trying to be a profit making farmer and not just having a truck farm). So if you don't farm and want to buy organic apples, LA ain't the place to look for farmers that are growing them. Watsonville in Santa Cruz county is home to Matinelli's famous apple cider but it isn't great apple country either and they are dependent on using at least a half dozen applications of oils and pesticides to get their crop in. If you go further north and near the snow-line you start to come to good apple country and people who try to grow organically have had much better luck growing organic apples. the reason being is that the many pests that apples have also have the many predators that prey on them and so when all those miserable aphids that constantly harass apples start to go crazy and atttack, you have a bazillion ladybugs hatching and smiling and gobbling them up and the apples thrive (sometimes, it's a tough crop to grow).

Sooo the point is the educated consumer who knows where the better climatic and geographic places are that grow the foods he desires, it can help him be able to hopefully search out organic farms in that area and be able to find a place to purchase their crops. If you can develop some kind of relationship (even a web-site) with farmers it will help find what you may want. If someone asked me to name three places and crops to grow organically in California maybe I could say apples in Placerville,El Dorado County, artichokes in Monterey county and Avocadoes in San Diego County. Those should all be well suited for the areas. Don't go looking for apple farms in the San Fernando Valley. I've grown great organic tomatoes,carrots, spices and tropical fuits down on the tip of the baja. In every major market in California you can get the lovliest organic cherrry tomatoes you can find from an organic farm at the tip of the Baja. They don't sell their beefstakes though because they are not as profitable and definitely they don't have any apples coming out of that area. I know what I say is a bit convoluted at times and i definitely didn't express myself properly with my first LA remark and that is where your question was derived from.

Please don't think I'm some pie in the sky space child as I have definitely purchased fungicide varieties that run in the hundreds of dollars a quart and have had to get them mixed right and applied immediately with the correct application equipment to fight pytheum and fusariumm attacks on golfing greens and without a few thousand dollars worth of chems and their corect and timely application you could be talking about multiple tens of thousands of dollars worth of loss so i UNDErstand chems (and maybe lived in a bit of a paradox) and their uses in many ways but never would I be putting any fungicides on the foods I eat or in the ground that I grow it in. People will possibly call me two face but such it is, i will definitely fill my body with chems if it is a matter of life or death and can say i am alive because of man made chems but now is not the time to discuss modern medicines. the phylloxera (sp) and nematodes that destroyed Europe and started to destroy American grapes was not over-come by the myriad of chems that they went underground with to go after it. It took one man and a blanket and good soles on his shoes to trek the mountains of afghanistan and Pakistan to find a wild grape that he was in searrch of. He did and now almost all the great vineyards use the stock this great fellow by the name of Olmos. I saw the stock from his original stock when it had a fruit set on, the clustur of grapes was much much smaller than the last digit of your baby finger and there were about 150 teeny tiny grapes in the cluster quite an outrageous looking cane also. There are alternatives to chems many times it is just a matter of design.

Wow again good old 555 this is 55 minutes and counting but hopefully I am addressing your questions and you can understand a bit more about the organic movement I know just putting this together has helped educate me a bit more and you can never be to old to be educated or too ignorant (as in my case). You can dang near grow anything anywhere it just becomes a point of practicality and cconvenience and in too many cases chems. Know your land and climates (as you show with your info on southern cal) is the best advice I can give the original fellow then educate yourself on the crops that do the best then search out your organic sources there visit on-site if opossible or get info any way you can then make intelligent educated decision on what you want to consume.

to address the organic in Thailand thing and who do you trust when reading a label. I would have to give the same advice don't buy your brocoli from Pattani, know what grows best where in Thailand. Try to get as close to the source and develop a relationship with your growers, if not, try to research them as the checks and balances in this country are very difficult when it comes to the law and its enforcement in every and anyway of life here.

Oh PS Mr original poster don't ever meet me on the street unless you have a big big apology because nobody and i do mean you calls me a liar because i am categorically going to call you a complete buffoon to have posted such an innflammatory statement but it obviously goes with your useless and spineless demeanor of not giving anyone a decent response for their help in trying to educate you in a field that you are completely clueless. I won't put you in the class of guys like Idi Amin, Dickie Nixon, Danny Moi and Taksin but I wouldn't be surprised if you felt that they, along maybe with another of their ilk, Mugabe, are people to look up to and emulate because if you had any bit of style you would have been able to use different words to convey a similar thought to start this topic, but don't worry you won and made me call you a name like buffoon so i stepped down to your level and that should make you proud.

Hey hey hey rice555 looks like I'm going to get this one through. hopefully I answered some of the voids I left in my other posting and sure do enjoy your input on a variety of issue. Enjoy a BL&T for me. peace and love and a warm ford tractor

[brahmburgers]

I can think of a bunch of reasons I'd rather eat organic than chemically laden foods.

The OP is making a claim somewhat like: Swimming in clean water is a con. People can swim in dirty water and it's no different. Has anyone had a death certificate stating "died by swimming in dirty water"?

I, for one, have experienced tangible debilitations from eating non-organic food on occasion.

Here are some of the results from eating foods with too much pesticides or herbicides:

headaches (the most common reaction)

rashes

aching joints

tightening of jaw and other muscles / grinding of teeth

Plus, cancer comes from somewhere, doesn't it? It starts small, on a cellular level. What triggers it? It's very hard to tell exactly. But it's likely some physiological trigger - quite possibly triggered by a little or a lot of a chemical that's not healthy. Even more plausible, cancer is triggered by a toxic chemical or combination of chemicals. Cancer could be initiated years before it shows up in a clinical test, by which time it has grown large enough to be detectable. Why play roulette with your health? Eat healthy, eat organic. If you were to start a serious study of toxic chemicals that may adversely affect one's health, you'll find the list is quite long (thousands) and the incidence of toxic and/or questionable chemicals being ingested by everyone is growing exponentially. Just the toxic chemicals from various common plastics is a long and scary list in itself.

And Thai food has few veges, and the few it has are overcooked, so you're relatively safe, except the heavily use of flavor additives - a whole other saga on that topic.

[Token]

I can think of a bunch of reasons I'd rather eat organic than chemically laden foods.

The OP is making a claim somewhat like: Swimming in clean water is a con. People can swim in dirty water and it's no different. Has anyone had a death certificate stating "died by swimming in dirty water"?

I, for one, have experienced tangible debilitations from eating non-organic food on occasion.

Here are some of the results from eating foods with too much pesticides or herbicides:

headaches (the most common reaction)

rashes

aching joints

tightening of jaw and other muscles / grinding of teeth

Plus, cancer comes from somewhere, doesn't it? It starts small, on a cellular level. What triggers it? It's very hard to tell exactly. But it's likely some physiological trigger - quite possibly triggered by a little or a lot of a chemical that's not healthy. Even more plausible, cancer is triggered by a toxic chemical or combination of chemicals. Cancer could be initiated years before it shows up in a clinical test, by which time it has grown large enough to be detectable. Why play roulette with your health? Eat healthy, eat organic. If you were to start a serious study of toxic chemicals that may adversely affect one's health, you'll find the list is quite long (thousands) and the incidence of toxic and/or questionable chemicals being ingested by everyone is growing exponentially. Just the toxic chemicals from various common plastics is a long and scary list in itself.

And Thai food has few veges, and the few it has are overcooked, so you're relatively safe, except the heavily use of flavor additives - a whole other saga on that topic.

This is all babble, without a modicum of evidence or good reasoning.

Yeah and the brevity of your post reflects your competence to make that judgement. Sustainability to you probably means your ability to keep stains off of your reclining chair while drinking Coca Cola. Get real and read the info that hard-working people have made available to you to show a different path, not an easier one by far, but one that they feel will make a difference in the world that we live in. I'm sure all that USDA info that was posted that you judiciously read and analyzed brought you to this well thought and eloquently stated hypothesis. You are great example and the true hope of future generations. But of course all organic growers are con men and liars so your help has been truly appreciated to show the world the meticulous journey you took to ascertain these set in concrete facts that so clearly prove your points.

All of these result from spewing babble:

headaches (the most common reaction)

rashes

aching joints

tightening of jaw and other muscles / grinding of teeth

[bina]

ok. i am now deleting the tirade between both of u (token and foreverford)... please act like adults... keep the discussion, which could be interesting, to facts, figures and information from both sides of the coin: organic or not...

namecalling, flaming, derailing the thread will result in suspensions and warnings.

bina

[Foreverford]

ok. i am now deleting the tirade between both of u (token and foreverford)... please act like adults... keep the discussion, which could be interesting, to facts, figures and information from both sides of the coin: organic or not...

namecalling, flaming, derailing the thread will result in suspensions and warnings.

bina

the gist of deleted response was that I think we have been conned as i don't believe that Token is real but someone's idea to play jokes on people just to get reactions from hard working farmers. I finally got it and it made me laugh to know I had been made the fool and i can laugh at myself with no problems. As i said in my deleted post previously, I'm not going to waste my time responding to any more posts in this link as it is obvious now with the repetitive nature of the token poster that we have been played as fools for a joke. I don't feel my post was offensive and also thought that it was somewhat witty at times but one's person's joke is another's....The "namecalling" was an interesting twist on words and I felt I responded very much like an adult but definitely like one who needed to make his point in no uncertain terms. I don't take kindly to being censored or called a liar and to delete my response when the post accuses our entire way of life of being "Lie And A Con"

is quite inflammatory in its essence. If the entire post was reread you will see that I have responded with helpful and detailed facts throughout and it was by these that i felt that we were all being played for a jokle. In that spirit I finished a somewhat lengthy response with some levity now it is gone forever as I didn't save it. I will agree with Bina in that I don't approve of namecalling especially when I am being accused of being a liar and a thief and even childish with my time. I am none of these and will continue to take offense to anyone who feels such. as stated before i was played the fool once too often here and i will not be the fool again and respond to this link. I think the regular contributors to this may somewhat understand my position. as I said in my previous post and this is a quote " Ayukka yuk yuk" It doesn't sound as funny as my previous post.

[bina]

ugh. now going to close the thread since nothing productive has come of it ...

the pros and cons of organcis can be discussed in a new, improved thread when anyone wants to do so, remembering that we can all agree to disagree, without insulting each other...

bina