The 2010 Formula One Season

[carmine]

Alonso IS one of the most talented drivers whether folks like to admit it or not. Problem is, he's as obnoxious as he is talented.

He is the most talented together with Hamilton and this is the reason why they have the highest salary in the F1 championship this year. All the information here below has been published by Business Book GP.

Fernando Alonso (Ferrari) 30M

Lewis Hamilton (McLaren) 16M

Felipe Massa (Ferrari) 14M

Jenson Button (McLaren) 9M

Michael Schumacher (Mercedes GP) 8M

Nico Rosberg (Mercedes GP) 8M

Robert Kubica (Renault) 7.5M

Rubens Barrichello (Williams) 5.5M

Mark Webber (Red Bull) 4.2M

Jarno Trulli (Lotus) 3M

Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull) 2M

Heikki Kovalainen (Lotus) 2M

Timo Glock (Virgin) 1M

Nico Hulkenberg (Williams) 700.000

Pedro Martínez (Sauber) 500.000

Kamui Kobayashi (Sauber) 500.000

Vitaly Petrov (Renault) 400.000

Sebastien Buemi (Toro Rosso) 400.000

Jaime Alguersuari (Toro Rosso) 400.000

Aadrian Sutil (Force India) 200.000

Vitantonio Liuzzi (Force India) 200.000

Lucas Di Grassi (Virgin) 200.000

Bruno Senna (Hispania Racing) 150.000

Karun Chandhok (Hispania Racing) 100.000

Surely some of those at the a**e end of the list should be negative amounts?

TBWG

Those guys are more about the sponsorship they bring with them. I would say Bruno Senna a case in point.

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8933655.stm

Sad to see Lauda and Ferrari going at each other.

Personally my feeling is that however Ferrari felt about his comments, they would have been better just keeping stum.

[carmine]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8933655.stm

Sad to see Lauda and Ferrari going at each other.

Personally my feeling is that however Ferrari felt about his comments, they would have been better just keeping stum.

I agree with you. I do find it quite unbelievable though that Ferrari are showing this total and utter disregard for the rules, and with such arrogance. Rather than holding up their hands they appear to be throwing down the gauntlet. Personally i hope, for the good of F1 they get hammered at the hearing. The governing body has to show them who is boss or ferrari will continue as they have been.

[b19bry]

Alonso IS one of the most talented drivers whether folks like to admit it or not. Problem is, he's as obnoxious as he is talented.

Oh right, and Hamilton, Schumacher,Vettel etc. aren't..............peerrrrleease

There are very few nice guys in F1, Barrichello is nice enough and he got trampled all over by Schumacher, Massa is also a nice enough guy (overpaid by the looks) but he will come off second best to Alonso. Webber is one of the few genuine and straight talking guys, be interesting to see how he fares against Vettel in the second half of the season.

You seem to have missed my point. I chose to comment on Alonso alone. That does'nt mean i think higher or less of any of the others does it. My point is whether people like him or not is irrelevent to his status as one of the best, if not the best F1 drivers.

Well I agree with your 'point' and if one's objective it's hard to see it any other way. Whether he's obnoxious or not though is a purely subjective judgement based on personal feelings or opinion. Personally I think he's no more obnoxious than any of the other drivers.

[rixalex]

I agree with you. I do find it quite unbelievable though that Ferrari are showing this total and utter disregard for the rules, and with such arrogance. Rather than holding up their hands they appear to be throwing down the gauntlet. Personally i hope, for the good of F1 they get hammered at the hearing. The governing body has to show them who is boss or ferrari will continue as they have been.

Indeed.

What's also unbelievable is their argument: "we aren't guilty of doing anything wrong, but anyway, why are you having a go at us? everyone else is guilty of the same thing".

[b19bry]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8933655.stm

Sad to see Lauda and Ferrari going at each other.

Personally my feeling is that however Ferrari felt about his comments, they would have been better just keeping stum.

Yes, it is sad but Lauda has always been outspoken and even when driving would not be shy in expressing some somewhat 'quirky' views.

It's really no surprise that as an Austrian he's now trumpeting Vettel in a Red Bull, but let's not forget it was Ferrari that made him and, in the 312B4, saved him from F1 obscurity. Up till then he'd shown only brief flashes of form, was totally outshone by Peterson at March and was an inconsistent runner at BRM. It was his former BRM teammate Regazzoni (who'd already signed to Ferrari for 74) that recommended him and effectively got him the drive. If it hadn't been for that nobody would remember him today.

It's little surprise that Luca Montezemolo, in particular, might feel a little 'peeved'.

[H2oDunc]

From the BBC article

"This time, good old Niki has missed out on a fine opportunity to keep his mouth shut, given that, when he was a Scuderia driver, the supposed Ferrari driver management policy suited him perfectly.

When Niki was driving for Ferrari then there was no law against team orders so exactly is the point in this ?

Ferrari were guilty of breaking the rules of that nobody can argue. The fact they did this to favour a guy who has form for throwing his dummy out of the cockpit when things are not going his way is also of no doubt. It made no difference to Ferrari whether Massa or Alonso finished first so for Alonso to say Ferrari made the decision is <deleted>. You only had to look at Mass's face and body language to see he was not happy at all being made to let Alonso past. As Niki says either the rules need to be changed or the book needs to be thrown at Ferrari.

[b19bry]

The fact they did this to favour a guy who has form for throwing his dummy out of the cockpit when things are not going his way is also of no doubt.

You're not a Hamilton fan by any chance ?

It made no difference to Ferrari whether Massa or Alonso finished first so for Alonso to say Ferrari made the decision is <deleted>.

Actually it made 7 points worth of difference which is quite significant when you consider Ferrari's leading points scorer was 47 points behind the championship leader going into the race. As a tactic to get one of their drivers into the drivers championship 'hunt' it made absolute sense, whether it was the correct thing to do is another matter.

I suspect Alonso may well shortly lose 25 points now though which effectively ends his championship challenge. You can at least rejoice in that :jap:

[rixalex]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8933655.stm

Sad to see Lauda and Ferrari going at each other.

Personally my feeling is that however Ferrari felt about his comments, they would have been better just keeping stum.

Yes, it is sad but Lauda has always been outspoken and even when driving would not be shy in expressing some somewhat 'quirky' views.

It's really no surprise that as an Austrian he's now trumpeting Vettel in a Red Bull, but let's not forget it was Ferrari that made him and, in the 312B4, saved him from F1 obscurity. Up till then he'd shown only brief flashes of form, was totally outshone by Peterson at March and was an inconsistent runner at BRM. It was his former BRM teammate Regazzoni (who'd already signed to Ferrari for 74) that recommended him and effectively got him the drive. If it hadn't been for that nobody would remember him today.

It's little surprise that Luca Montezemolo, in particular, might feel a little 'peeved'.

It's clear then that you subscribe to the same beliefs that Ferrari doggedly and desperately remain hanging on to; that being that anyone who thinks the manner and circumstances in which Ferrari so blatantly and crudely fixed the race was bad and wrong on so many levels - both for the team and the sport as a whole - must be in some way be unfairly biased against them.

I think it's time for Ferrari to consider that what they did was bad and wrong, and that claiming no crime has been commited whilst also waving the finger at other teams and drivers for also doing what they say they are not guilty of is just making them look silly and unprofessional.

[b19bry]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8933655.stm

Sad to see Lauda and Ferrari going at each other.

Personally my feeling is that however Ferrari felt about his comments, they would have been better just keeping stum.

I agree with you. I do find it quite unbelievable though that Ferrari are showing this total and utter disregard for the rules, and with such arrogance.

I didn't read that into this article at all. It seemed to be that Ferrari were expressing their disappointment at a former employee pontificating on what the WMSC's judgement would be with comments like "they will get a pasting from the World Council, that is for sure.", and rather suggesting that it would be better to leave any decision the the WMSC. Seemed reasonable enough to me.

[b19bry]

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8933655.stm

Sad to see Lauda and Ferrari going at each other.

Personally my feeling is that however Ferrari felt about his comments, they would have been better just keeping stum.

Yes, it is sad but Lauda has always been outspoken and even when driving would not be shy in expressing some somewhat 'quirky' views.

It's really no surprise that as an Austrian he's now trumpeting Vettel in a Red Bull, but let's not forget it was Ferrari that made him and, in the 312B4, saved him from F1 obscurity. Up till then he'd shown only brief flashes of form, was totally outshone by Peterson at March and was an inconsistent runner at BRM. It was his former BRM teammate Regazzoni (who'd already signed to Ferrari for 74) that recommended him and effectively got him the drive. If it hadn't been for that nobody would remember him today.

It's little surprise that Luca Montezemolo, in particular, might feel a little 'peeved'.

It's clear then that you subscribe to the same beliefs that Ferrari doggedly and desperately remain hanging on to; that being that anyone who thinks the manner and circumstances in which Ferrari so blatantly and crudely fixed the race was bad and wrong on so many levels - both for the team and the sport as a whole - must be in some way be unfairly biased against them.

I think it's time for Ferrari to consider that what they did was bad and wrong, and that claiming no crime has been commited whilst also waving the finger at other teams and drivers for also doing what they say they are not guilty of is just making them look silly and unprofessional.

our po

No I'm not saying that at all, I'm just trying to put things into perspective a little and explain why Ferrari might feel somewhat aggrieved at Lauda.

What Ferrari did was against the rules but I do think this thing has been blown way out of proportion as we've discussed previously and I don't want to go there again as you so obviously think differently.

However, I do reckon you will get you will get your 'pound of flesh' if that's any consolation.

[rixalex]

No I'm not saying that at all, I'm just trying to put things into perspective a little and explain why Ferrari might feel somewhat aggrieved at Lauda.

What Ferrari did was against the rules but I do think this thing has been blown way out of proportion as we've discussed previously and I don't want to go there again as you so obviously think differently.

However, I do reckon you will get you will get your 'pound of flesh' if that's any consolation.

I understand why Ferrari might have their noses out of joint with Lauda. I don't understand what good it does them to publicly cross swords with him.

If this is all a fuss over nothing, why are you so sure that the FIA will come down heavily?

[b19bry]

No I'm not saying that at all, I'm just trying to put things into perspective a little and explain why Ferrari might feel somewhat aggrieved at Lauda.

What Ferrari did was against the rules but I do think this thing has been blown way out of proportion as we've discussed previously and I don't want to go there again as you so obviously think differently.

However, I do reckon you will get you will get your 'pound of flesh' if that's any consolation.

I understand why Ferrari might have their noses out of joint with Lauda. I don't understand what good it does them to publicly cross swords with him.

If this is all a fuss over nothing, why are you so sure that the FIA will come down heavily?

I didn't say it was 'all a fuss over nothing', I said it 'had been blown out of all proportion', there's a difference there.

But the fact remains they broke a rule, the backlash in the media (which extends almost to a 'witch hunt' in the British media) means the consequences of this will likely be severe. I expect Alonso at least will lose points.

Edited August 22, 2010 by b19bry

[rixalex]

I didn't say it was 'all a fuss over nothing', I said it 'had been blown out of all proportion', there's a difference there.

But the fact remains they broke a rule, the backlash in the media (which extends almost to a 'witch hunt' in the British media) means the consequences of this will likely be severe. I expect Alonso at least will lose points.

If Alonso does lose points it will be strange considering he lost none for what happened in Singapore, which i think was much much more serious.

My feeling is a slap on the wrists is the more likely outcome. I hope you're right though. If not they might just as well do away with the rule.

[b19bry]

I didn't say it was 'all a fuss over nothing', I said it 'had been blown out of all proportion', there's a difference there.

But the fact remains they broke a rule, the backlash in the media (which extends almost to a 'witch hunt' in the British media) means the consequences of this will likely be severe. I expect Alonso at least will lose points.

If Alonso does lose points it will be strange considering he lost none for what happened in Singapore, which i think was much much more serious.

My feeling is a slap on the wrists is the more likely outcome. I hope you're right though. If not they might just as well do away with the rule.

I agree Piquet's 'crash' was a much much more serious affair, but to single out Alonso for punishment would have been unreasonable. Whatever anyone may think or choose to believe, there has never been any proof of his involvement and none of the protagonists have ever implicated him. Any sanction on him would have been 'kangaroo justice'.

You could argue that the team should have been punished, but in the previous instance of a team being punished by loss of points (Mclaren spygate) both drivers kept all their points.

There were many driver's who's race was ruined by the 'crash' (Massa still believes this race cost him the championship) and others beyond Alonso who were to profit from it. If any action were to be taken (and I don't believe there should have been) the fairest thing would have been to void the race entirely.

We'll just have to see what the WMSC decides, I guess the fact that Jean Todt is now FIA president may work in Ferrari's favour ?

They should definitely do away with the rule, it's a farce.

Edited August 22, 2010 by b19bry

[rixalex]

I agree Piquet's 'crash' was a much much more serious affair, but to single out Alonso for punishment would have been unreasonable. Whatever anyone may think or choose to believe, there has never been any proof of his involvement and none of the protagonists have ever implicated him. Any sanction on him would have been 'kangaroo justice'.

You could argue that the team should have been punished, but in the previous instance of a team being punished by loss of points (Mclaren spygate) both drivers kept all their points.

There were many driver's who's race was ruined by the 'crash' (Massa still believes this race cost him the championship) and others beyond Alonso who were to profit from it. If any action were to be taken (and I don't believe there should have been) the fairest thing would have been to void the race entirely.

Whether or not Alonso had knowledge of the cheating that his team had planned to hand him the race win i think is irrelevant. The fact is it was his team, of which he is obviously a part. Teams win as a team, lose as a team, and indeed cheat as a team.

Going by your logic that if a driver isn't a part of his team's cheating (or it can't be proved that he is) he shouldn't be punished, what then when a driver cheats all by himself out on the track? Should his team be protected from suffering any penalty from something they had no hand in? Of course not. It's a nonsense. Driver and team are one and the same, and we can't suddenly treat them as separate entities when punishment comes along. They must both take the hit in whatever form it comes in. If an easily quantifiable number of extra points has resulted from cheating then both the team and the driver must lose those points.

We'll just have to see what the WMSC decides, I guess the fact that Jean Todt is now FIA president may work in Ferrari's favour ?

They should definitely do away with the rule, it's a farce.

The rule is not a farce, it's just difficult to enforce and relies upon teams taking it upon themselves to act with some responsibility to the sport and to know when they are manipulating things too much. The rule had been working up until now. Does that mean the rule was being fully abided by? No. That was never expected. What was expected was that blatant manipulation of race results that makes a mockery of the "sport" would be stopped.

[b19bry]

Whether or not Alonso had knowledge of the cheating that his team had planned to hand him the race win i think is irrelevant. The fact is it was his team, of which he is obviously a part. Teams win as a team, lose as a team, and indeed cheat as a team.

Going by your logic that if a driver isn't a part of his team's cheating (or it can't be proved that he is) he shouldn't be punished, what then when a driver cheats all by himself out on the track? Should his team be protected from suffering any penalty from something they had no hand in? Of course not. It's a nonsense. Driver and team are one and the same, and we can't suddenly treat them as separate entities when punishment comes along. They must both take the hit in whatever form it comes in. If an easily quantifiable number of extra points has resulted from cheating then both the team and the driver must lose those points.

It's not my logic it's the FIA's and I have some sympathy with what you say, but did you miss the bit about Mclaren spygate ? When Mclaren were caught cheating (as a team), the team was stripped all it's points however the drivers suffered no such penalty. It's the FIA that has set this as a precedent in the case of a team caught cheating. I know you don't like the man but having allowed the drivers to escape in the Mclaren case It would have been nothing more than victimisation for the FIA to then sanction Alonso when there was no evidence against him personally.

The rule is not a farce, it's just difficult to enforce and relies upon teams taking it upon themselves to act with some responsibility to the sport and to know when they are manipulating things too much. The rule had been working up until now. Does that mean the rule was being fully abided by? No. That was never expected. What was expected was that blatant manipulation of race results that makes a mockery of the "sport" would be stopped.

The above paragraph only serves to confirm my original sentence. What you're saying is that with this particular rule the teams are expected to police themselves and know when not to go too far and that the FIA will turn a blind eye when you break it so long as you don't make it obvious......go figure !!

[rixalex]

It's not my logic it's the FIA's and I have some sympathy with what you say, but did you miss the bit about Mclaren spygate ? When Mclaren were caught cheating (as a team), the team was stripped all it's points however the drivers suffered no such penalty. It's the FIA that has set this as a precedent in the case of a team caught cheating. I know you don't like the man but having allowed the drivers to escape in the Mclaren case It would have been nothing more than victimisation for the FIA to then sanction Alonso when there was no evidence against him personally.

I don't know why you would say that "it's not my logic" when moments before it was you, not the FIA, typing these words:

I agree Piquet's 'crash' was a much much more serious affair, but to single out Alonso for punishment would have been unreasonable. Whatever anyone may think or choose to believe, there has never been any proof of his involvement and none of the protagonists have ever implicated him. Any sanction on him would have been 'kangaroo justice'.

The FIA may well agree with you but that doesn't make it any less your logic.

Anyway, as far the McLaren spygate situation is concerned i think the FIA got it wrong and i go back to the comment i made about deducting points of both driver and team in the circumstances when cheating has led to an advantage of points that is both fairly certain and to some degree quantifiable. For example if a team has used an illegal component on its car that has given it a speed advantage of an estimated half second a lap, well then take that time off the final results and deduct points accordingly - both team and driver.

In the case of McLaren as serious as it was and as worthy of punishment as it might have been, i don't think there was any way of knowing if it had had any effect on results, and if it had, it was quite impossible to know by how much. In a case such as this i believe a different sort of punishment is required. A fine for starters, as McLaren did indeed receive. Perhaps a period of a ban on development of their car for next season. These punishments hit both team and driver.

[rixalex]

The rule is not a farce, it's just difficult to enforce and relies upon teams taking it upon themselves to act with some responsibility to the sport and to know when they are manipulating things too much. The rule had been working up until now. Does that mean the rule was being fully abided by? No. That was never expected. What was expected was that blatant manipulation of race results that makes a mockery of the "sport" would be stopped.

The above paragraph only serves to confirm my original sentence. What you're saying is that with this particular rule the teams are expected to police themselves and know when not to go too far and that the FIA will turn a blind eye when you break it so long as you don't make it obvious......go figure !!

Yes that's exactly what i'm saying and whilst it's not a perfect situation, it's better than what we had before, and it was working until Ferrari crossed the line.

Nothing to figure.

[dominique355]

Rules that cannot be enforced should not be rules. That's a very old philosophy, which is also valid in politics and governments. I believe the French philosopher Montesquieu said it first over 200 years ago.

That is why the FIA rules about team orders should be abandoned, they cannot be enforced. To punish Ferrari just because they did it a little bit more obviously than others basically is punishing a team for their style, not for content.

This forum being predominantly British obviously has a little bias against Ferrari, and Max Mosely is port of this.

Why should Alonso be punished? Should he have also slowed down behind Massa (and let Vettel pass)? That's absurd. Should Massa be punished for slowing down? And how do you distinguish a driving error from a team order execution?

In my opinion, the drivers should not be punished, they are racers and could not have done differently. So punish the team with US$ 100,000? Well, a good example on how to reduce cost in Formula 1, right?

Stop the hypocrisy and let's race!

[rixalex]

Rules that cannot be enforced should not be rules. That's a very old philosophy, which is also valid in politics and governments. I believe the French philosopher Montesquieu said it first over 200 years ago.

Since when have laws against bribery, prostitution and drug abuse been able to be enforced completely successfully? Never. Does that mean we should do away with them?

Why should Alonso be punished?

Because he broke the rule perhaps? We can argue on the merits of the rule, but we can't disagree that it exists and that everyone was aware of it before the race begun, can we?

And how do you distinguish a driving error from a team order execution?

In this case, simply by listening to the pit to car radio.

Stop the hypocrisy and let's race!

Letting drivers race is precisely what this rule is all about.

[b19bry]

I don't know why you would say that "it's not my logic" when moments before it was you, not the FIA, typing these words:

I agree Piquet's 'crash' was a much much more serious affair, but to single out Alonso for punishment would have been unreasonable. Whatever anyone may think or choose to believe, there has never been any proof of his involvement and none of the protagonists have ever implicated him. Any sanction on him would have been 'kangaroo justice'.

The FIA may well agree with you but that doesn't make it any less your logic.

The point I was making was that the FIA had obviously employed this logic to conclude there were no grounds to sanction Alonso. I was merely re-stating it.

Anyway, as far the McLaren spygate situation is concerned i think the FIA got it wrong and i go back to the comment i made about deducting points of both driver and team in the circumstances when cheating has led to an advantage of points that is both fairly certain and to some degree quantifiable. For example if a team has used an illegal component on its car that has given it a speed advantage of an estimated half second a lap, well then take that time off the final results and deduct points accordingly - both team and driver.

In the case of McLaren as serious as it was and as worthy of punishment as it might have been, i don't think there was any way of knowing if it had had any effect on results, and if it had, it was quite impossible to know by how much. In a case such as this i believe a different sort of punishment is required. A fine for starters, as McLaren did indeed receive. Perhaps a period of a ban on development of their car for next season. These punishments hit both team and driver.

I love the way that you in your previous post confidently assert "Teams win as a team, lose as a team, and indeed cheat as a team". in an attempt to justify why Alonso should have been sanctioned yet when you see that no longer fits your argument you feel the need to qualify that statement as above.

[b19bry]

The rule is not a farce, it's just difficult to enforce and relies upon teams taking it upon themselves to act with some responsibility to the sport and to know when they are manipulating things too much. The rule had been working up until now. Does that mean the rule was being fully abided by? No. That was never expected. What was expected was that blatant manipulation of race results that makes a mockery of the "sport" would be stopped.

The above paragraph only serves to confirm my original sentence. What you're saying is that with this particular rule the teams are expected to police themselves and know when not to go too far and that the FIA will turn a blind eye when you break it so long as you don't make it obvious......go figure !!

Yes that's exactly what i'm saying and whilst it's not a perfect situation, it's better than what we had before, and it was working until Ferrari crossed the line.

Nothing to figure.

If you realised that many of the characters in motor sport management (including those at the very top) cut their teeth in the wheeling dealing world of the motor trade you'd understand that to implement the rule in the way you describe doesn't stand a cat in hel_l's chance.

[rixalex]

Anyway, as far the McLaren spygate situation is concerned i think the FIA got it wrong and i go back to the comment i made about deducting points of both driver and team in the circumstances when cheating has led to an advantage of points that is both fairly certain and to some degree quantifiable. For example if a team has used an illegal component on its car that has given it a speed advantage of an estimated half second a lap, well then take that time off the final results and deduct points accordingly - both team and driver.

In the case of McLaren as serious as it was and as worthy of punishment as it might have been, i don't think there was any way of knowing if it had had any effect on results, and if it had, it was quite impossible to know by how much. In a case such as this i believe a different sort of punishment is required. A fine for starters, as McLaren did indeed receive. Perhaps a period of a ban on development of their car for next season. These punishments hit both team and driver.

I love the way that you in your previous post confidently assert "Teams win as a team, lose as a team, and indeed cheat as a team". in an attempt to justify why Alonso should have been sanctioned yet when you see that no longer fits your argument you feel the need to qualify that statement as above.

You need to go back and read my comments more carefully, because nowhere in the argument concerning McLaren did i take any step back from my feelings that "Teams win as a team, lose as a team, and indeed cheat as a team". McLaren deserved to receive a punishment that impacted on both team and driver, but deducting points wasn't in my opinion the way to do it. Had their cheating resulted, as it did in the case of Renault, in an easily quantifiable number of extra points won, then absolutely points should have been taken from both team and driver. That was not the case, Doesn't mean however that the punishment should have singled out the team and excluded the driver.

[H2oDunc]

The fact they did this to favour a guy who has form for throwing his dummy out of the cockpit when things are not going his way is also of no doubt.

You're not a Hamilton fan by any chance ?

It made no difference to Ferrari whether Massa or Alonso finished first so for Alonso to say Ferrari made the decision is <deleted>.

Actually it made 7 points worth of difference which is quite significant when you consider Ferrari's leading points scorer was 47 points behind the championship leader going into the race. As a tactic to get one of their drivers into the drivers championship 'hunt' it made absolute sense, whether it was the correct thing to do is another matter.

I suspect Alonso may well shortly lose 25 points now though which effectively ends his championship challenge. You can at least rejoice in that :jap:

I would actually like to see Webber win but I do think Hamilton is a very good racer in a very average car this season.

I seem to be missing something on the finishing front. can you explain to me how Ferrari got an extra 7 points for Alonso finishing ahead of Massa. The way I see it They get points for their cars finishing first and second. It matters not one iota who was first or second to Ferrari but mattered hugely to both Alonso and Massa. The fact boils down to they broke the rules. Whether you agree with the rule or not is immaterial. They have to punish Alonso for the integrity of F1. I would simply like to see the positions reversed and then forgotten.

[rixalex]

Whether you agree with the rule or not is immaterial. They have to punish Alonso for the integrity of F1. I would simply like to see the positions reversed and then forgotten.

It would be very lenient in the sense that all you are doing is returning them to the positions they were in before they broke the rule, you are not actually punishing them for the breaking of the rule. That said, this is, as has been discussed at length, a very gray area and Ferrari are not the only culprits - they are just the ones who pushed things too far (in my opinion), and so perhaps going lightly on them would be the right move and it would be enough to just remind teams that we don't want to go back to the days of races being blatantly orchestrated, and that teams have a responsibility not only to share holders, bank managers and sponsors, but to the integrity of the sport.

[dominique355]

Yes indeed, laws against prostitution will NEVER be successful, remember, it's the oldest profession in the world. Most modern countries have therefore legalized prostitution, thus freeing the prostitutes from the pimps and giving the girls a clean and save "working" environment.

Corruption can be fought and there are many examples proving this.

To punish drug use is indeed stupid. Better help the addicted to cure their addiction and punish the dealers.

Which rule did Alonso break? Please clarify, perhaps quote the FIA rule. He saw the car in front of him slowing down and overtook, what's wrong with that? Remember he did not hear the radio between Massa and the pits. Drivers make mistakes, cars have problems ...

You cannot enforce the ban on team tactics by listening to the radio messages. Example: Pit to driver: "Mixture 27, mixture 27". It's a coded message and only the race engineer and the driver know what it means. How will you prevent that? You cannot and that's the whole point.

[rixalex]

Yes indeed, laws against prostitution will NEVER be successful, remember, it's the oldest profession in the world. Most modern countries have therefore legalized prostitution, thus freeing the prostitutes from the pimps and giving the girls a clean and save "working" environment.

Most modern countries have legalised prostitution? Really? My feeling is that is not true, but we are way off topic.

Corruption can be fought and there are many examples proving this.

You said: Rules that cannot be enforced should not be rules. Corruption is against the rules, and despite it being successfully fought on some occasions, it remains widespread. Following your logic we should do away with anti-corruption laws.

To punish drug use is indeed stupid. Better help the addicted to cure their addiction and punish the dealers.

Yes i agree, punish the dealers, but when it proves impossible to do so in all cases, we are then back to your motto about not bothering with laws that can't be enforced.

[H2oDunc]

Which rule did Alonso break? Please clarify, perhaps quote the FIA rule. He saw the car in front of him slowing down and overtook, what's wrong with that? Remember he did not hear the radio between Massa and the pits. Drivers make mistakes, cars have problems ...

It was not the Ferrari team that wanted Massa to slow down. It did not matter to them in the slightest whether Massa or Alonso came first. It was Alonso whining to the pit lane to TELL Massa to move over as he could not overtake him legally that makes him responsible for breaking the rules. I listened to Alonso try to say that it was the teams decision to make him move over <deleted> Just more lies from someone who has form for this type of behaviour. Yes team orders do happen but most teams do not do it so obviously as Ferrari did. They tend to do it in the pit lane where one driver needs to come in for a splash and dash etc. I think that the FULL conversations between the two drivers and the team should be made available so we can see once and for all just where the blame lies.

As said. Ferrari have been fined as a team and the reversing of positions would serve as a penalty for Alonso. Then lets just get on with the seasons racing, where the emphasis is on RACING and not FIXING!!!!

[rixalex]

Which rule did Alonso break? Please clarify, perhaps quote the FIA rule. He saw the car in front of him slowing down and overtook, what's wrong with that? Remember he did not hear the radio between Massa and the pits. Drivers make mistakes, cars have problems ...

You cannot enforce the ban on team tactics by listening to the radio messages. Example: Pit to driver: "Mixture 27, mixture 27". It's a coded message and only the race engineer and the driver know what it means. How will you prevent that? You cannot and that's the whole point.

It wasn't just Alonso who broke the rules, it was the entire Ferrari team, and that includes Massa.

As for your other points, if you are trying to argue that proving team orders came into play is difficult, i agree with you - but unlike you i don't think that's a reason to abolish the rule. If you are trying to argue that team orders didn't come into play, you must be having a laugh.

Let me ask your opinion on this: do you think that the McLaren spygate business was a one off? Or do you believe like many other people do that it was simply the tip of the iceburg and that every year there is information being surrupticiously passed from one team to another by some form or other? I myself believe that is the case. McLaren were just the unlucky ones in that they got caught out. Does that mean the law preventing such activity should be abolished? Of course not. Does that mean McLaren should have been let off without punishment? Certainly not.