Arrest Warrant Issued For Red-Shirt Core Leader Arisman

[cdnvic]

Post deleted that was so roughly edited that it was impossible to distinguish the quoted material from the poster's own.

[Ricardo]

The reds today are entirely too intertwined with Dr. Taksin and PT party. Better for them to choose their own leaders, who are untainted, and take over the government through the ballot box (democratic means). They claim they have a majority so it should be easy to organize and field candidates in the next scheduled election.

This is a parlimentary government. Why wait 2 years for an election? Schedule and internationally supervised election in 90 days! Problem solved.

Sadly it seems very unlikely that any Thai politician, of any party or colour, would agree to have international oversight of a Thai election, for reasons of 'face'. So this option is a non-starter in reality.

However the suggestion that genuine democrats within the Red-Shirts might elect new leaders & form a party to offer candidates at the next election, copying the PAD/NPP strategy incidentally, might be worth trying, especially if the 'Million Man March' fails to overthrow the current government immediately as had been its aim.

But Arisaman's ideas on violent protest, are only good for landing him in jail, whether as an April Fool (on 1st April) or at some other time. There is currently little/no support for the violent overthrow of the current government. The numbers on the streets show this.

[moresomekl]

Do you mean to say that the coup leaders including the generals who ,back in Sept 2006, overthrew an elected prime minister have been arrested and are now free on bail and awaiting judgement ? Overthrowing an elected government is not a small thing you know one would expect at least a long jail sentence . Or maybe they should arrest Arisman and give him a slap on his buttock and let him go .

My point is that while i feel right to arrest someone advocating armed sedition , and also right to confiscate the money earned through traffic of influence & corruption by a political leader . that should apply to everyone . There are very few political leaders not only in Thailand but also in the region who havent used their influence to award juicy governement contracts to friends and familly . Taksin is by far not the first . Am I right ? Well i dont see the jails full of them ... Nor they money confiscated .

Taksin did big mistakes but he also gave hope to many thais in the country side and not only in the far North (Korat is not far north is it ?)and not only thru vote buying , like providing cheap health care , micro loan and forums to start small businesses ,and so on and so forth . As long as one has money to put food on the table and provide cheap health care and education for his familly , he can be excused to give a dam_n about the money that Taksin did .

Perhaps the current government should learn from that and implement some of Taksin ideas minus his mistakes ,so that it would be less afraid to call for popular elections . Am not even sure that they (the current PM) are legally in place , does the thai constitution says that the prime minister is elected by parliament or by the people ?

Sorry kiddo --- but if you are unaware that there was no "elected government" at the time of the coup in 2006 then there is really no point even trying to educate you further.

Sorry dude but Thaksin was elected .... Or else how he came to power ?

[yoshiwara]

Do you mean to say that the coup leaders including the generals who ,back in Sept 2006, overthrew an elected prime minister have been arrested and are now free on bail and awaiting judgement ? Overthrowing an elected government is not a small thing you know one would expect at least a long jail sentence . Or maybe they should arrest Arisman and give him a slap on his buttock and let him go .

My point is that while i feel right to arrest someone advocating armed sedition , and also right to confiscate the money earned through traffic of influence & corruption by a political leader . that should apply to everyone . There are very few political leaders not only in Thailand but also in the region who havent used their influence to award juicy governement contracts to friends and familly . Taksin is by far not the first . Am I right ? Well i dont see the jails full of them ... Nor they money confiscated .

Taksin did big mistakes but he also gave hope to many thais in the country side and not only in the far North (Korat is not far north is it ?)and not only thru vote buying , like providing cheap health care , micro loan and forums to start small businesses ,and so on and so forth . As long as one has money to put food on the table and provide cheap health care and education for his familly , he can be excused to give a dam_n about the money that Taksin did .

Perhaps the current government should learn from that and implement some of Taksin ideas minus his mistakes ,so that it would be less afraid to call for popular elections . Am not even sure that they (the current PM) are legally in place , does the thai constitution says that the prime minister is elected by parliament or by the people ?

Sorry kiddo --- but if you are unaware that there was no "elected government" at the time of the coup in 2006 then there is really no point even trying to educate you further.

Sorry dude but Thaksin was elected .... Or else how he came to power ?

You miss the point. First check the chronology and second understand that the voters do not elect a leader.

[moresomekl]

The reds today are entirely too intertwined with Dr. Taksin and PT party. Better for them to choose their own leaders, who are untainted, and take over the government through the ballot box (democratic means). They claim they have a majority so it should be easy to organize and field candidates in the next scheduled election.

This is a parlimentary government. Why wait 2 years for an election? Schedule and internationally supervised election in 90 days! Problem solved.

Sadly it seems very unlikely that any Thai politician, of any party or colour, would agree to have international oversight of a Thai election, for reasons of 'face'. So this option is a non-starter in reality.

However the suggestion that genuine democrats within the Red-Shirts might elect new leaders & form a party to offer candidates at the next election, copying the PAD/NPP strategy incidentally, might be worth trying, especially if the 'Million Man March' fails to overthrow the current government immediately as had been its aim.

But Arisaman's ideas on violent protest, are only good for landing him in jail, whether as an April Fool (on 1st April) or at some other time. There is currently little/no support for the violent overthrow of the current government. The numbers on the streets show this.

Finally some constructive ideas

Agree about this Arisam , there is no excuse for violence , as there is none for military coups even those that receive flowers (in Bangkok only that is) .

I think the main issue is not really about Thaksin but about the decades of neglect of the country side by successive governments .

I doubt that this "awakening" by all parties involved would had happened without Thaksin , he was the trigger , and on that , perhaps on that only , he can be given credit .

Lets hope that some clean political leader or/and new party emerges from the "million march protest" as you say .

[OzMick]

The thing with democracy is that people have to learn to live with the will of the majority. American democrats hated that Bush won a disputed election, but got on with life; after all there'll be another election in 4 years.

Here, most people don't seem to be too worried about the government that they've got - the only protest coming from the small minority red shirts, and this weekends head count should prove that though substantial in number, they are still are a small minority. What is in question is how much even they care. If they truly despise the current govt, why is a nameless figure handing out wads of cash to get them to show up?

[moresomekl]

The coup happened. It's history now, you can talk about it as much as you like, but it's not going to change a thing. Anyone advocating history should be reset at August 2006 really needs to look at the facts. The last "democratically" elected government to be overthrown by a coup was the Choonhaven administration back in 2001. If you're going to continually bring up the unfairness of Thaksin's ouster then you really should be wanting to take things all the way back to then. The facts are:

Thaksin was the self appointed caretaker PM (despite resigning at one point) at the time of the coup. The elections he called in 2006, which were declared null and void by the EC, meant that he had exhausted his mandate.

The coup took place, the Surayad government was sworn in by HM the King. It was the legal government at the time.

Elections have since taken place, in 2007. Every current MP was elected in those, or in more recent by-elections, every current MP has voted for their choice of PM and Abhisit won.

Thaksin has been proven to have stolen vast sums of money from the Thai people. The evidence is freely available for all to examine. He would have been booted out, and no doubt arrested, in any Western democracy.

This is all very much off topic, but follows the pro red norm of hijacking and diverting threads with rubbish in order to detract from the debate at hand.

The debate at hand is that Arisman is on record, again the evidence is freely available, as having incited violence. He has broken the conditions of his bail, but, even if he hadn't have previously been arrested, the things he has been saying, including the call for molotov cocktails, and the brutal beating of one of his own supporters in Surat Thani, are reason enough to get this thug behind bars. I can't see why the government doesn't arrange to have him dragged off the stage and throw him in jail. After all, the reds are very peaceful, don't have any weapons and should applaud the government for removing a violent figure, who is as much a threat to their own safety as he is to non reds, from the demonstration. Or are they just lies too?

Well am not the first one here to have deviated from this forum core subject

a) Thaksin was the first prime minister in Thailand's history to lead an elected government through a full term in office . He soundly defeated the democratic party in 2001 . No coup in 2001 ...

Yes well anyone is entitled to his own opinion , am not defending one side or the other . Just wondering about the double standard.

And why Thakin is so popular anyway if his policies were so malignant ?

c) Its all a matter of the thai constitution , am neutral . Ppl are elected in parliement does not mean they are elected as PM . Unless the constitution says otherwise .

d) Did i ever say that Arisman or any other advocating violence , read ,yellow or blue or green whatever should not be prosecuted ? Agree he should be arrested if what you say is correct ..

Quote: "Thaksin was the first prime minister in Thailand's history to lead an elected government through a full term in office...."

Here we go again:

- He was not genuinly elected through free and fair elections, he bought the election through massive and quite open vote buying.

- Yes, he did last a full term, but you seem to forget that he would not allow any negative comment from anybody, he intimidated anybody who got in his way, government officials we're totally intimidated, the so called 'free press' was totally intimidated and he sued several journalists who dared to make negative comment, he severely intimidated the judiciary, and he used state radio and TV to broadcast his propaganda with no balanced comment whatever, other parties etc were not allowed access, and more

Agree that his methods of vote buying were not proper and he was too authoritarian . The muslim south and the sales of his telecom company are also not to his credit But he also presided over a boom of the thai economy after the 97 financial crisis , which i doubt would have been possible without him . And he brought the attention on the countryside

[animatic]

....

Perhaps the current government should learn from that and implement some of Taksin ideas minus his mistakes ,so that it would be less afraid to call for popular elections . Am not even sure that they (the current PM) are legally in place , does the thai constitution says that the prime minister is elected by parliament or by the people ?

Sorry kiddo --- but if you are unaware that there was no "elected government" at the time of the coup in 2006 then there is really no point even trying to educate you further.

Sorry dude but Thaksin was elected .... Or else how he came to power ?

You miss the point. First check the chronology and second understand that the voters do not elect a leader.

A couple of missed points.

Many of Thaksins IDEAS were not his, he just advertised his doing them very large.

Many of those ideas have ALREADY been implemented better and with more sustainability

by Abhist and Korn, but WITHOUT all the self aggrandizing PR fanafare Thaksin used.

Several ideas Thaksins cronies HATE, but are better for the poor farmers have also been implemented by A n K

Again with out the self aggrandizing fanfare... things like ditching the rice pledging fisaco

and assorted graft inducing crop schemes.

BOTH of the most recent constitutions 1997 AND 2007 BOTHJ say that ;

MPS are elected by the people and those MP's elect the PM.

The current government is legal in place via the laws of Thailand. FACT.

Thaksin was elected in 2001 and relected in 2005,

yes that is how he came to power... but it isn't an open ended term.

Each time he had bought in advancve other opposition parties through their power brokers,

and renamed them FACTIONS of his TRT, this enabled the appearance of ONE PARTY winning a majority.

Money talked and the power brokers listened. It was a coalition government hiding under one name.

When Thaksins TRT decendant parties failed a 2nd time, the other parties went back to being

other opposition parties as they were BEFORE Thaksin bought them up.

Thaksin himself dissolved the parliament in 2006 by calling a snap election,

that REMOVED HIS ELECTED MANDATE and his TITLE OF ELECTED PRIME MINISTER...

No one did this but Thaksin with his own pen...

He then was unable to run a successful snap election and win his mandate back,

and his caretaker status expired, and he was running the government without

even a basic constitutional mandate.

These are all verifiable facts.

He took that attempt to maintain and increase control in his hands alone, too far,

and the army acted. He was an 'Expired Caretaker Prime Minister" when the coup happened,

Nothing more, and no mandate at all, he had squandered it.

But he was clearly making moves to cause an SoE and gain greater, sole control.

Later those moves were tried by Samak, but the army wouldn't bite that rancid worm.

IMHO this is one of the main reasons he was removed from his EXPIRED CARETAKER POSITION

via a peaceful coup. His mental instability under preasure since brought so clear to MOST observers

since 2006 till today, was no doubt another underlying issue for his removal. He was turning dangerous.

Last Songkrans, and this weeks actions prove that to be so in no uncertain terms.

[animatic]

...But he also presided over a boom of the thai economy after the 97 financial crisis , which i doubt would have been possible without him . And he brought the attention on the countryside

Sorry to burst another bubble.

The recover was not possible with out the Democrats making some really hard

and unpopular choices to save the Thailand during 1997 crash of the Asian Tiger Economy.

This CRASH was caused in no small part by Prime Minister Chavalit...

yes Red Peoples Army Leader, denied, Chavalit from PTP, (silent this weekend you may note)

and under minster THAKSIN, who was one of a VERY FEW who grandly profited from Chavilts saying;

I will never devalue the baht on Friday, and then grandly devaluing the baht on Tuseday...

Causing a multinational freefall in valuation.... ending the Aisian Tiger Economy definitively.

You notice all this hulks of unfinished projects BIG projects scattered around Bangkok...

Chavalit, 'The Brain's legacy on display.

And oh yes PTP mp Chalerm was also loudly in the government that CAUSED

the whole asian monetary system to CRASH... Yes it started in THAILAND.

These guys were at the helm when it happened.

The Dems came in, and working with almost nothing left, salvaged the economy,

much as Korn has been doing this last year.

But of course stern measures in tight times are not popular. An easy sell for the opposition.

By the time their work was done, Thaksin had taken some of his cash earned from hedging his currency bets

most likely from insider information as a jr minister, and bought up a coalition with pure old fashioned CASH.

And rode the cyclical upswing, taking credit for it the whole time.

At this time the over all Asian economy was finally rebounding and he rode that wave rather grandly

and advertised this fact, as if HE created the wealth... he didn't.

He also refinanced the International Monetary Fund loan that the previous government had been

forced to take, because of the Chavalit debacle, to save the economy, and converted it , into lower interest ,

BUT MUCH LONGER TERM debt to Singapore... He told the upcountry folk that he paid off the IMF ,

and 'got the western shylocks off of Thailands back'... but actually just exchanged them for eastern shylocks....

more interest paid in the longer term... Same folks he sold his company too...

And he ignored the fact IMF is an international group of NATIONS,

banded together to help each other when in financial distress, like a safety valve.

And ignored the fact Thailand is a FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE IMF...

Thailand ALSO loans to other nations via IMF for the same reasons...

Thailand is a paid up signatory and member of the IMF.

The guy is a liar and a self aggrandizing cheat of his own people.

Edited March 14, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

Do you mean to say that the coup leaders including the generals who ,back in Sept 2006, overthrew an elected prime minister have been arrested and are now free on bail and awaiting judgement ? Overthrowing an elected government is not a small thing you know one would expect at least a long jail sentence . Or maybe they should arrest Arisman and give him a slap on his buttock and let him go .

My point is that while i feel right to arrest someone advocating armed sedition , and also right to confiscate the money earned through traffic of influence & corruption by a political leader . that should apply to everyone . There are very few political leaders not only in Thailand but also in the region who havent used their influence to award juicy governement contracts to friends and familly . Taksin is by far not the first . Am I right ? Well i dont see the jails full of them ... Nor they money confiscated .

Taksin did big mistakes but he also gave hope to many thais in the country side and not only in the far North (Korat is not far north is it ?)and not only thru vote buying , like providing cheap health care , micro loan and forums to start small businesses ,and so on and so forth . As long as one has money to put food on the table and provide cheap health care and education for his familly , he can be excused to give a dam_n about the money that Taksin did .

Perhaps the current government should learn from that and implement some of Taksin ideas minus his mistakes ,so that it would be less afraid to call for popular elections . Am not even sure that they (the current PM) are legally in place , does the thai constitution says that the prime minister is elected by parliament or by the people ?

Sorry kiddo --- but if you are unaware that there was no "elected government" at the time of the coup in 2006 then there is really no point even trying to educate you further.

Sorry dude but Thaksin was elected .... Or else how he came to power ?

I got sick of posting the same facts in every thread so started up a new one with details of the time line. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Abhisit-Legi...37#entry3414437

Feel free to correct anything.

[Moonrakers]

I got sick of posting the same facts in every thread so started up a new one with details of the time line. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Abhisit-Legi...37#entry3414437

Feel free to correct anything.

Personally, I am drawing a line as to how many posts somebody has before I respond. I haven't decided on a figure yet.

I might sound a bit sad, which it normally would be, but responding to everybody who doesn't understand the details of the subject will become a ridiculous task.

[animatic]

Personally, I am drawing a line as to how many posts somebody has before I respond. I haven't decided on a figure yet.

I might sound a bit sad, which it normally would be, but responding to everybody who doesn't understand the details of the subject will become a ridiculous task.

LOL I hear you.

But some of the newbies are clearly PR shills,

and a lie told often enough becomes a truth for too many,

if the reality is not shown in it's place.

[ballpoint]

Well am not the first one here to have deviated from this forum core subject

a) Thaksin was the first prime minister in Thailand's history to lead an elected government through a full term in office . He soundly defeated the democratic party in 2001 . No coup in 2001 ...

Yes well anyone is entitled to his own opinion , am not defending one side or the other . Just wondering about the double standard.

And why Thakin is so popular anyway if his policies were so malignant ?

c) Its all a matter of the thai constitution , am neutral . Ppl are elected in parliement does not mean they are elected as PM . Unless the constitution says otherwise .

d) Did i ever say that Arisman or any other advocating violence , read ,yellow or blue or green whatever should not be prosecuted ? Agree he should be arrested if what you say is correct ..

Sorry, I meant the coup in 1991, which was the last coup to remove an elected government with a current mandate. Where do the years go?

In reply to your point d) I never said you were advocating violence. I made an open post, replying to no one, to try and avoid such confusion.

[moresomekl]

A couple of missed points.

Many of Thaksins IDEAS were not his, he just advertised his doing them very large.

Many of those ideas have ALREADY been implemented better and with more sustainability

by Abhist and Korn, but WITHOUT all the self aggrandizing PR fanafare Thaksin used.

Several ideas Thaksins cronies HATE, but are better for the poor farmers have also been implemented by A n K

Again with out the self aggrandizing fanfare... things like ditching the rice pledging fisaco

and assorted graft inducing crop schemes.

BOTH of the most recent constitutions 1997 AND 2007 BOTHJ say that ;

MPS are elected by the people and those MP's elect the PM.

The current government is legal in place via the laws of Thailand. FACT.

Thaksin was elected in 2001 and relected in 2005,

yes that is how he came to power... but it isn't an open ended term.

Each time he had bought in advancve other opposition parties through their power brokers,

and renamed them FACTIONS of his TRT, this enabled the appearance of ONE PARTY winning a majority.

Money talked and the power brokers listened. It was a coalition government hiding under one name.

When Thaksins TRT decendant parties failed a 2nd time, the other parties went back to being

other opposition parties as they were BEFORE Thaksin bought them up.

Thaksin himself dissolved the parliament in 2006 by calling a snap election,

that REMOVED HIS ELECTED MANDATE and his TITLE OF ELECTED PRIME MINISTER...

No one did this but Thaksin with his own pen...

He then was unable to run a successful snap election and win his mandate back,

and his caretaker status expired, and he was running the government without

even a basic constitutional mandate.

These are all verifiable facts.

He took that attempt to maintain and increase control in his hands alone, too far,

and the army acted. He was an 'Expired Caretaker Prime Minister" when the coup happened,

Nothing more, and no mandate at all, he had squandered it.

But he was clearly making moves to cause an SoE and gain greater, sole control.

Later those moves were tried by Samak, but the army wouldn't bite that rancid worm.

IMHO this is one of the main reasons he was removed from his EXPIRED CARETAKER POSITION

via a peaceful coup. His mental instability under preasure since brought so clear to MOST observers

since 2006 till today, was no doubt another underlying issue for his removal. He was turning dangerous.

Last Songkrans, and this weeks actions prove that to be so in no uncertain terms.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer , rather then succumb to the sarcastic approach of many "knowitalls" here . In particular on the subject of the thai constitution of 1997 . History has prooven that parlementary democracy tends to be much more unstable as opposed to popular democracy but that is the law of Thailand , for thais to decide , and thus the current governement is legally in place .

I tend to agree on the subject of Thaksin but i dont believe all that he did was negative . He brought up the subject of the rural poor which without him the current government would have ignored as all of them did before him .

Today in Bangkok there is 100,000 (B.B.C numbers ) protesters demanding for new elections and i dont buy the fact , that their only aim is to recover billions on behalf of Thaksin or put him back as PM , which will never happen anyway . There must be some genuine discontent and frustration in the rank of the protesters .

Everyone here , I guess, agrees that Arisam or anyone promoting violence should be sternly prevented from spitting hate that is not really a very difficult subject , is like opening a forum on "Should rape be legalised ?" .

Anyway thanks again

[moresomekl]

Sorry to burst another bubble.

The recover was not possible with out the Democrats making some really hard

and unpopular choices to save the Thailand during 1997 crash of the Asian Tiger Economy.

This CRASH was caused in no small part by Prime Minister Chavalit...

yes Red Peoples Army Leader, denied, Chavalit from PTP, (silent this weekend you may note)

and under minster THAKSIN, who was one of a VERY FEW who grandly profited from Chavilts saying;

I will never devalue the baht on Friday, and then grandly devaluing the baht on Tuseday...

Causing a multinational freefall in valuation.... ending the Aisian Tiger Economy definitively.

You notice all this hulks of unfinished projects BIG projects scattered around Bangkok...

Chavalit, 'The Brain's legacy on display.

And oh yes PTP mp Chalerm was also loudly in the government that CAUSED

the whole asian monetary system to CRASH... Yes it started in THAILAND.

These guys were at the helm when it happened.

The Dems came in, and working with almost nothing left, salvaged the economy,

much as Korn has been doing this last year.

But of course stern measures in tight times are not popular. An easy sell for the opposition.

By the time their work was done, Thaksin had taken some of his cash earned from hedging his currency bets

most likely from insider information as a jr minister, and bought up a coalition with pure old fashioned CASH.

And rode the cyclical upswing, taking credit for it the whole time.

At this time the over all Asian economy was finally rebounding and he rode that wave rather grandly

and advertised this fact, as if HE created the wealth... he didn't.

He also refinanced the International Monetary Fund loan that the previous government had been

forced to take, because of the Chavalit debacle, to save the economy, and converted it , into lower interest ,

BUT MUCH LONGER TERM debt to Singapore... He told the upcountry folk that he paid off the IMF ,

and 'got the western shylocks off of Thailands back'... but actually just exchanged them for eastern shylocks....

more interest paid in the longer term... Same folks he sold his company too...

And he ignored the fact IMF is an international group of NATIONS,

banded together to help each other when in financial distress, like a safety valve.

And ignored the fact Thailand is a FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE IMF...

Thailand ALSO loans to other nations via IMF for the same reasons...

Thailand is a paid up signatory and member of the IMF.

The guy is a liar and a self aggrandizing cheat of his own people.

Thanks a lot for sharing your views . Nevertheless to brand those protesting in Bangkok today as Thaksin stooges or mercenaries seems to me rather simplistic . Anyway lets hope that some good comes out of it and violence is kept absent .

[moresomekl]

Well am not the first one here to have deviated from this forum core subject

a) Thaksin was the first prime minister in Thailand's history to lead an elected government through a full term in office . He soundly defeated the democratic party in 2001 . No coup in 2001 ...

Yes well anyone is entitled to his own opinion , am not defending one side or the other . Just wondering about the double standard.

And why Thakin is so popular anyway if his policies were so malignant ?

c) Its all a matter of the thai constitution , am neutral . Ppl are elected in parliement does not mean they are elected as PM . Unless the constitution says otherwise .

d) Did i ever say that Arisman or any other advocating violence , read ,yellow or blue or green whatever should not be prosecuted ? Agree he should be arrested if what you say is correct ..

Sorry, I meant the coup in 1991, which was the last coup to remove an elected government with a current mandate. Where do the years go?

In reply to your point d) I never said you were advocating violence. I made an open post, replying to no one, to try and avoid such confusion.

Thanks , no problem

[moresomekl]

I might sound a bit sad, which it normally would be, but responding to everybody who doesn't understand the details of the subject will become a ridiculous task.

LOL I hear you.

But some of the newbies are clearly PR shills,

and a lie told often enough becomes a truth for too many,

if the reality is not shown in it's place.

It's no use always pointing out that Thaksin was corrupt, etc. So are the rest and he's no different so what is to proove one way or another . The rural areas have been selling their votes since "democracy" began in Thailand lol . But Thaksin actually followed through on some promises that directly benefited them. Bangkok is not Thailand , the majority of the people lives in the rural areas . Then the protesters claims that Abhisit did not win elections , are they all liars ?

[SiriusBlack1]

No apology. If asking for elections is overthrowing the government, that is.

Exactly. Stop the repression and respect the people's wishes.

[SomTumTiger]

Can someone teach Moresomeki how to use the "Quote" function, so we don't have to decifer large amounts of text that all looks same?

[Cayenne]

Personally, I am drawing a line as to how many posts somebody has before I respond. I haven't decided on a figure yet.

I might sound a bit sad, which it normally would be, but responding to everybody who doesn't understand the details of the subject will become a ridiculous task.

LOL I hear you.

But some of the newbies are clearly PR shills,

and a lie told often enough becomes a truth for too many,

if the reality is not shown in it's place.

Do you see a pattern, guys? Every now and then some newbie would come in and declared some new statement (i.e. this government is illegitimate, etc.) without providing any sound legal or rational argument and of course, we respond with logic and rationale and then these guys would shrink away, only to be replaced by another newbie spouting the exact words in which we would have to start all over again. Might as well copy and paste our arguments in response to all of them.

[quiksilva]

It seems that many people's memories are either short or they have only just begun to take an interest in Thai politics.

Animatic's posts 190 and 191 are excellent summaries of the factual events that have led up to this current situation, they should be pinned.

For those of you who doubt them, do some research.

[scorecard]

...But he also presided over a boom of the thai economy after the 97 financial crisis , which i doubt would have been possible without him . And he brought the attention on the countryside

Sorry to burst another bubble.

The recover was not possible with out the Democrats making some really hard

and unpopular choices to save the Thailand during 1997 crash of the Asian Tiger Economy.

This CRASH was caused in no small part by Prime Minister Chavalit...

yes Red Peoples Army Leader, denied, Chavalit from PTP, (silent this weekend you may note)

and under minster THAKSIN, who was one of a VERY FEW who grandly profited from Chavilts saying;

I will never devalue the baht on Friday, and then grandly devaluing the baht on Tuseday...

Causing a multinational freefall in valuation.... ending the Aisian Tiger Economy definitively.

You notice all this hulks of unfinished projects BIG projects scattered around Bangkok...

Chavalit, 'The Brain's legacy on display.

And oh yes PTP mp Chalerm was also loudly in the government that CAUSED

the whole asian monetary system to CRASH... Yes it started in THAILAND.

These guys were at the helm when it happened.

The Dems came in, and working with almost nothing left, salvaged the economy,

much as Korn has been doing this last year.

But of course stern measures in tight times are not popular. An easy sell for the opposition.

By the time their work was done, Thaksin had taken some of his cash earned from hedging his currency bets

most likely from insider information as a jr minister, and bought up a coalition with pure old fashioned CASH.

And rode the cyclical upswing, taking credit for it the whole time.

At this time the over all Asian economy was finally rebounding and he rode that wave rather grandly

and advertised this fact, as if HE created the wealth... he didn't.

He also refinanced the International Monetary Fund loan that the previous government had been

forced to take, because of the Chavalit debacle, to save the economy, and converted it , into lower interest ,

BUT MUCH LONGER TERM debt to Singapore... He told the upcountry folk that he paid off the IMF ,

and 'got the western shylocks off of Thailands back'... but actually just exchanged them for eastern shylocks....

more interest paid in the longer term... Same folks he sold his company too...

And he ignored the fact IMF is an international group of NATIONS,

banded together to help each other when in financial distress, like a safety valve.

And ignored the fact Thailand is a FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE IMF...

Thailand ALSO loans to other nations via IMF for the same reasons...

Thailand is a paid up signatory and member of the IMF.

The guy is a liar and a self aggrandizing cheat of his own people.

And of top of all of that several independant economic gurus have written that the so called thaksinomics were 5 minute flag wavers and completely unsustainable long-term.

[scorecard]

It seems that many people's memories are either short or they have only just begun to take an interest in Thai politics.

Animatic's posts 190 and 191 are excellent summaries of the factual events that have led up to this current situation, they should be pinned.

For those of you who doubt them, do some research.

Agree, great posts.

[Ricardo]

Then the protesters claims that Abhisit did not win elections , are they all liars ?

Not liars, just misinformed or misled.

First, all PMs here are elected by the other MPs, who have been elected by their constituencies or the proportional-vote party-lists, so any PM has been elected, just not directly by the electorate.

Second, the protesters may well be referring to the fact that PM-Abhisit's Democratic Party did not achieve an overall majority, in the December-2008 elections, which are the most recent ones. They are correct. No party achieved an overall-majority, not the Dems nor PPP (now PTP), however this is all quite normal and leads to the coalition-governments common here.

The result is that one of the larger minority-parties talks to other minority-parties, and forms a coalition, which governs until it loses its overall majority, and another coalition is formed. Since the last elections there have been three administrations, the first two led by PM-Samak & PM-Somchai (of the former-PPP), the latest a new coalition led by PM-Abhisit.

The protesters either ignore, or do not know, that the PPP had similarly not got an overall majority, and was also merely the leader of a coalition. They may well feel aggrieved, that the minor-parties which supported 'their' PPP-led coalitions, then switched sides to support the Democrats in turn. But that's how it works here.

An interesting variation of the usual theme, was when Thaksin's TRT formed its coalition before the elections in 2001, combining small parties as 'factions of TRT', and was thus able to gain an overall majority at the election itself. Since Thaksin's removal in September-2006, from the unelected-post of caretaker-PM, his factional-party has begun to split up again, back into its original factions. One of these is now in the Democrat-led coalition, which no doubt causes further distress to the protesters, and even to former-PM Thaksin himself.

But that's Thai politics for you.

[moresomekl]

Can someone teach Moresomeki how to use the "Quote" function, so we don't have to decifer large amounts of text that all looks same?

tatata...

[SomTumTiger]

Can someone teach Moresomeki how to use the "Quote" function, so we don't have to decifer large amounts of text that all looks same?

tatata...

Point still stands. Use the quote button.

[moresomekl]

Not liars, just misinformed or misled.

First, all PMs here are elected by the other MPs, who have been elected by their constituencies or the proportional-vote party-lists, so any PM has been elected, just not directly by the electorate.

Second, the protesters may well be referring to the fact that PM-Abhisit's Democratic Party did not achieve an overall majority, in the December-2008 elections, which are the most recent ones. They are correct. No party achieved an overall-majority, not the Dems nor PPP (now PTP), however this is all quite normal and leads to the coalition-governments common here.

The result is that one of the larger minority-parties talks to other minority-parties, and forms a coalition, which governs until it loses its overall majority, and another coalition is formed. Since the last elections there have been three administrations, the first two led by PM-Samak & PM-Somchai (of the former-PPP), the latest a new coalition led by PM-Abhisit.

The protesters either ignore, or do not know, that the PPP had similarly not got an overall majority, and was also merely the leader of a coalition. They may well feel aggrieved, that the minor-parties which supported 'their' PPP-led coalitions, then switched sides to support the Democrats in turn. But that's how it works here.

An interesting variation of the usual theme, was when Thaksin's TRT formed its coalition before the elections in 2001, combining small parties as 'factions of TRT', and was thus able to gain an overall majority at the election itself. Since Thaksin's removal in September-2006, from the unelected-post of caretaker-PM, his factional-party has begun to split up again, back into its original factions. One of these is now in the Democrat-led coalition, which no doubt causes further distress to the protesters, and even to former-PM Thaksin himself.

But that's Thai politics for you.

Thanks a lot . Yes generally speaking parlementary democracy becomes often ungoverrnable , which ,it seems , is what is happening to Thailand . Weak governements dominated by small minority parties acting as arbiter in a coalition . Especially with such a bipolarisation between Bangkok and countryside the problem is accute . It seems the governments will all continue to come and go every now and then . Well election of the PM directly by the people would solve the issue but that is a drastic change of the constitution , anyway its for the thais to decide .

[scorecard]

Then the protesters claims that Abhisit did not win elections , are they all liars ?

Not liars, just misinformed or misled.

First, all PMs here are elected by the other MPs, who have been elected by their constituencies or the proportional-vote party-lists, so any PM has been elected, just not directly by the electorate.

Second, the protesters may well be referring to the fact that PM-Abhisit's Democratic Party did not achieve an overall majority, in the December-2008 elections, which are the most recent ones. They are correct. No party achieved an overall-majority, not the Dems nor PPP (now PTP), however this is all quite normal and leads to the coalition-governments common here.

The result is that one of the larger minority-parties talks to other minority-parties, and forms a coalition, which governs until it loses its overall majority, and another coalition is formed. Since the last elections there have been three administrations, the first two led by PM-Samak & PM-Somchai (of the former-PPP), the latest a new coalition led by PM-Abhisit.

The protesters either ignore, or do not know, that the PPP had similarly not got an overall majority, and was also merely the leader of a coalition. They may well feel aggrieved, that the minor-parties which supported 'their' PPP-led coalitions, then switched sides to support the Democrats in turn. But that's how it works here.

An interesting variation of the usual theme, was when Thaksin's TRT formed its coalition before the elections in 2001, combining small parties as 'factions of TRT', and was thus able to gain an overall majority at the election itself. Since Thaksin's removal in September-2006, from the unelected-post of caretaker-PM, his factional-party has begun to split up again, back into its original factions. One of these is now in the Democrat-led coalition, which no doubt causes further distress to the protesters, and even to former-PM Thaksin himself.

But that's Thai politics for you.

This all realates to one factor of the constitution that I believe should be amended.

Right now it is far too easy for people to simply jump from party to party to ensure they survive and can continue to get their hands into the spoils.

And to make it even easier, parties are not required to lodge an actual and detailed manifesto of their beliefs, their philosophies and their aims. Therefore 'jumpers' cannot be accussed of changing 'philosophy'.

Another point I believe needs adjustment is a control on how long one person can remain in the PM seat, which is a solid and valuable feature of many well structured constitutions / electoral laws across the developed world. It works.

Added to that there needs to be stronger laws which totally prevent one person / one group from gaining unchallengeable power and control.

Edited March 15, 2010 by scorecard

[animatic]

It seems that many people's memories are either short or they have only just begun to take an interest in Thai politics.

Animatic's posts 190 and 191 are excellent summaries of the factual events that have led up to this current situation, they should be pinned.

For those of you who doubt them, do some research.

Agree, great posts.

Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate the positive notice.

[ivowatson]

Personally, I am drawing a line as to how many posts somebody has before I respond. I haven't decided on a figure yet.

I might sound a bit sad, which it normally would be, but responding to everybody who doesn't understand the details of the subject will become a ridiculous task.

LOL I hear you.

But some of the newbies are clearly PR shills,

and a lie told often enough becomes a truth for too many,

if the reality is not shown in it's place.

Do you see a pattern, guys? Every now and then some newbie would come in and declared some new statement (i.e. this government is illegitimate, etc.) without providing any sound legal or rational argument and of course, we respond with logic and rationale and then these guys would shrink away, only to be replaced by another newbie spouting the exact words in which we would have to start all over again. Might as well copy and paste our arguments in response to all of them.

Yes I see it very clearly. But do the mods? Maybe they think they shouldn't do anything about it because of fear of called biased but this starts to be ridiculous.

Good on you guys to have the tenacity and time to counter with real arguments. Mind you, some will still believe any statement (smoke and water, you know).