Gay For A Day

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I have never engaged in a homosexual act, yet there have been times when I have felt “Gay for a Day”.

I remember seeing “Performance” with  James Fox, Mick Jagger, and Anita Pallenberg and actually wishing I could slide in between Mick and Anita on the screen.

And probably around the same time, crying with Dirk Bogarde in “Death in Venice” utterly convinced I also was in love with the boy Tadzio.

There have certainly been other instances, I have forgotten, or suppressed, that have become integrated into the yin and yang of my own sexuality.

Isn’t this what happens to everyone, regardless of whether they consider themselves homo or hetro sexual, inside us all are flashes of feelings that compel us to be Gay or hetro for a day?

And that the really sad fact is, denials of these feelings, can often be causal factors in many of the heart-rending cases of abuse we read about far too frequently.

Puritanism and sexual repression prevent open discussion on these subjects, resulting in, IMHO, unacceptable deviant behaviour from those who have no means to reconcile, justify and work out these feelings that the “norm” of society is telling them is wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly the best contribution yet.

Ironic, considering our Thomas has been branded a 'derailer'.

He's probably not gay and neither am I but we both have it in us to cut the crap and say it unshrouded.

Brett Anderson from the band Suede once said... 'I am a bisexual who has never had a homosexual experience' - which is a very profound quote, and one which I could relate to; until that time nine years ago when I snogged a geezer.

So don't worry Brit... ...You can't beat fanny and boobs when it comes down to it but you should also never knock what you haven't tried - including Khazakstan.

Edited May 23, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[Tornado]

oh dear! it must be the weather......

[ProThaiExpat]

This had been a lively thread and in general, very positive. Anytime the "gay forum" becomes less gettoed the better. I have enjoyed reading the posts so far and have a few comments.

The guy who kissed the "geezer" should be more selective of who he chooses to kiss as an "experiment" Most gays are discriminating and do not kiss just any man, notwithstanding one of the straight myths that every straight is in danger when a gay man is around. My guess is that an unattractive man, regardless of gay or straight, is in little danger of being the object of a gay "pass".

I have always enjoyed watching the Russian coaches kissing their gymnasts after every performance, and on the lips!! Some may actually be gay, but the proportion is no more than in any other group.

Thailand gay go-go bars are a special place since women are welcomed by all the staff and especially the straight men who are sex workers. The way they react to women is very annimated and enjoyable to watch as their interactions with gays are so wooden, understandably.

A true professional sex worker, regardless of straight or gay, makes the customer believe they are "in love with them for the hour", but these top of the line professionals and are hard to find, especially in Thailand. Gay sex with a straight man is about as boring as the opposite.

The process of becoming a good lover or being accomplished in having sex takes years and so the premise of "gay for a day" should not have a sucessful sexual experience as one of the objectives.

Having "crossed over" after a ten year marriage with a woman with children, I sure was a lousy "lay" for the first year or more. However, there are gays who "get off" on having sex with straight or almost straight men as a "type" regardless of how fulfilling the experience is. I don't envy their "fixation" as the sex is so half-hearted, in most cases.

Just as many women are "challenged" by "making it with a gay" to either convert them or prove that as a woman they can make a gay respond to them, gay men so approach straight men. I guess gays who are so "seduced" by straight women are "straight for a day" as the straight men are "gay for a day" when they have sex with a man.

My view on this is that having sex with a gay, if you are straight, doesn't make you in any way "gay" whether it is for a day or longer, and the opposite is true for gay men having sex with women. I had sex exclusively with a woman for ten years, but I would not argue with anyone that I was gay while doing it.

The Thai approach is so sane and mature, let the men and women do what they want sexually, whether it is opportunistic, for money or otherwise and don't worry about it, label it or make a big deal about it. The Christian-Judean heritage of the western world is a burnden that, hopefully with time, will be less of a "cross to bear", if you will excuse the pun.

Edited May 24, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[meadish_sweetball]

This had been a lively thread and in general, very positive.  Anytime the "gay forum" becomes less gettoed the better.  I have enjoyed reading the posts so far and have a few comments.

The guy who kissed the "geezer" should be more selective of who he chooses to kiss as an "experiment"  Most gays are discriminating and do not kiss just any man, notwithstanding one of the straight myths that every straight is in danger when a gay man is around.  My guess is that an unattractive man, regardless of gay or straight, is in little danger of being the object of a gay "pass".

I have always enjoyed watching the Russian coaches kissing their gymnasts after every performance, and on the lips!!  Some may actually be gay, but the proportion is no more than in any other group.

Thailand gay go-go bars are a special place since women are welcomed by all the staff and especially the straight men who are sex workers.  The way they react to women is very annimated and enjoyable to watch as their interactions with gays are so wooden, understandably.

A true professional sex worker, regardless of straight or gay, makes the customer believe they are "in love with them for the hour", but these top of the line professionals and are hard to find, especially in Thailand.  Gay sex with a straight man is about as boring as the opposite.

The process of becoming a good lover or being accomplished in having sex takes years and so the premise of "gay for a day" should not have a sucessful sexual experience as one of the objectives.

Having "crossed over" after a ten year marriage with a woman with children, I sure was a lousy "lay" for the first year or more.  However, there are gays who "get off" on having sex with straight or almost straight men as a "type" regardless of how fulfilling the experience is.  I don't envy their "fixation" as the sex is so half-hearted, in most cases.

Just as many women are "challenged" by "making it with a gay" to either convert them or prove that as a woman they can make a gay respond to them, gay men so approach straight men.  I guess gays who are so "seduced" by straight women are "straight for a day" as the straight men are "gay for a day" when they have sex with a man.

My view on this is that having sex with a gay, if you are straight, doesn't make you in any way "gay" whether it is for a day or longer, and the opposite is true for gay men having sex with women.  I had sex exclusively with a woman for ten years, but I would not argue with anyone that I was gay while doing it. 

The Thai approach is so sane and mature, let the men and women  do what they want sexually, whether it is opportunistic, for money or otherwise and don't worry about it, label it or make a big deal about it.  The Christian-Judean heritage of the western world is a burnden that, hopefully with time, will be less of a "cross to bear", if you will excuse the pun.

Interesting post, but I dont agree with everything you say here.

Thais in general are more tolerant against a lot of things - in the public eye - because controlling your feelings/reactions is set up as the highest of ideals. What they say to their friends in private or think to themselves may be a different matter though. After moving here and trying to make Thai friends, I was a bit surprised to discover more homophobia and prejudice than I first expected... but then again, these people would never consider 'gay-bashing' or whatever other stupid pastimes Judeo-Christian boys with a macho complex get up to.

As for labels, in my experience the Thais are experts at creating labels for different sexuality or preference people - the ladyboys call women "chanee" (a type of monkey with a distinct call, which they claim sounds like "phua" (a less polite word for husband). There are "tom" and "dee" - "butch" and "femme" lesbians... etc. etc.

But they dont take things so seriously... this may be the best thing about them.

[Ijustwannateach]

On topic, if you're going to be gay for a day or for a long time, even as a lark or as an experiment, prepare yourself to be like the White man who painted his face black and became a Negro during the bad days in the South.  You may not get bashed, although that's always literally, physically possible.  But you will know that people HATE you just because you're naturally gay (even though in this act, you aren't naturally like that).  Forget about going some of the places you normally go; they might not accept you.  You might lose your job, or your next promotion.  Your own mother might disown you.

It's not all positive.  But at the end of the day or the experiment, you can go back to what they call 'normal.'  Kind of like visiting Myanmar or North Korea, and then getting to leave because you have a foreign passport.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And if you think it'd be a challenge to pretend to be gay for a day as a straight man, that's really nothing at all- think about pretending to be straight as a gay man- for, oh, say, the first 20 years of your life. Or 30. Or 40. Or 50.....

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Been watching this thread for a while and have been alternately interested and bored senseless by it. Speed-reading it all again, I haven't found one observation that I think would come as a surprise to any semi-aware gay man - so, IMO, it seems to be benefiting mainly the straight visitors. Still, nothing wrong with that - the more they understand the better and 1,400-odd views of the topic must signify something.........

While I'm generally on the "don't knock it until you've tried it" side of things and, presumably, should therefore be ready to help out - the "gay for a day" bit is a no-no for me. "Want to see what it's like to find out if I like it" (i.e. might then continue with it - even as a part-time thing ) - yep, that's fine by me.

Unlike some gays, I've never found the idea of notching up a straight conquest remotely a turn-on. And, as I said to one straight guy who came on to me doing the "gay for a night" bit, I'm just not into tourists*.

I don't mean that to sound harsh - it's just that I (selfishly) have better things to do after 35-odd years of adulthood during which I've been straight, bisexual and gay. I'm tempted to add "and not necessarily in that order" which might be fun and interesting, but not totally accurate

* Unless they're wildly attractive......... "I can resist everything except temptation" (thank you, Oscar).

[kreon]

I am not gay, but I'll try anything once.

I always wanted to be gay for a day, mincing along when I walk, eating in expensive cafe's and listening to the Pet Shop Boys on my walkman.

Have any other straight people tried this, and what would a recommended itinerary be?

I can't promise I'll give it a go, but I am bored back in England so you never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

try a couple of days in boyz town in pattaya, see if you like to look at all that d1ck

took a couple of my girlfriends there and they loved it and were disgusted by it at the same time, for me...too small

[Jockstar]

i only came her to see what Scampy had to say for himself. Gay? Scampy? I dont think so. You are what you are. Gay or straight. Who cares? i knew someone a long time ago who said he wasnt gay. but his boyfriend was! As for TM he has an opinion on everything, No matter what, But he still makes no sense.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Jockstar

[PeaceBlondie]

Is 'Steven' the only poster who commented on my post about the negatives about playing 'gay for a day'? Nobody needs to even read it, but the point is that 'gayness' is not some sanuk activity all the time, some lark to run around wearing femme clothing. THEY MAY KILL YOU. I played a darn good act for 42 years, and never came out to my stepmother for the remaining 18 years of her life. She couldn't handle it.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Indeed PeaceBlondie, I posted also on that aspect of it also,but as you say, it was not taken up.

I tend to notice that on forums like this, that subject (homophobia) is an issue that straight people tend to shy away from. They like focussing on what they consider to be the amusing/sex-related aspects of the gay experience (talk about how all gay men are Pet Shop Boys loving, tireless cruising, expensive restaurant dining individuals etc).

But a more significant aspect of the "gay experience" for many gay people is how the general straight community reacts to their sexuality. A friend of mine told me recently about a lesbian who came out to her family at the age of 40. She is single and used to do a used to do a lot of babysitting for her younger sister. She got an ostensiably positive reaction when she came out. However, since she came out to the family, she gets the brush off when she volunteers to babysit now with all sorts of excuses. This is breaking her heart because she loves the children in question, they love her too and she would quite literally give her life to prevent any harm from coming to them.

Biut if you bring up this aspect of the gay experience straight people tend to ignore it or accuse you of being whining. (e.g. such as the suggestion from a straight poster in response to my original post that us gays should consider ourselves lucky we dont live in Pakistan! )

That is part of the reason i suggested to Scamp that if he wanted to experience part of the "gay experience" the most useful/educational thing for him to do would be to self-identify himself as gay in a 'straight space' and see the reaction he got.

Personally I believe that one has little control over ones sexual attractions, and any attempt to see what it felt like to be attracted to the same sex for a day would be a fatuous exercise. As would flouncing about in Soho for a spell.

But i doubt that any straight person would have any interest in carrying out my suggestion. No fun in that! Far better if you are straight to restrict ones discussion of homosexual issues in internet forums to such imbecilic topics as whether or not wearing a pink shirt will make you look gay.

[The_Moog]

Edited May 24, 2005 by The_Moog

[Totster]

But if you bring up this aspect of the gay experience straight people tend to ignore it or accuse you of being whining. (e.g. such as the suggestion from a straight poster in response to my original post that us gays should consider ourselves lucky we dont live in Pakistan! )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see you fell the need to seperate us by calling me "a straight poster". You have made this distinction, and by doing so have created "them and us". I wonder if you have this attitude in your everyday life. If so, then is it any wonder why straight people have the same view..? IMO just saying "a poster" would have got the same message across.

Now regarding the Pakistan thing. I have re-read my post and can't see any mention of "whining". In fact I made sure that I didn't say that, because that is not what I meant. Maybe this is something you feel subconciously.

The thing is, everybody gets labelled, and has to suffer the concequence at some point, whether it be malicious or just general piss taking. Now the more gay people voice the fact that they are so hard done by ( in the UK and other like minded countries ) the more people will look at this group of people and make judgements. That's the sad truth of it.

There are so many gay people with the attitude "I'm gay, so what, I don't care what you think, why, have you got a problem with it..? etc", negative from the outset, thinking that everyone will be bigoted and not able to accept this fact, when in my experience there are more people who just don't care whether someone is gay, black, fat, whatever... big deal ...so what..!

totster

[Steve2UK]

I see you fell the need to seperate us by calling me "a straight poster".  You have made this distinction, and by doing so have created "them and us".  I wonder if you have this attitude in your everyday life.  If so, then is it any wonder why straight people have the same view..?  IMO just saying "a poster" would have got the same message across.

Now regarding the Pakistan thing.  I have re-read my post and can't see any mention of "whining".  In fact I made sure that I didn't say that, because that is not what I meant. Maybe this is something you feel subconciously.

The thing is, everybody gets labelled, and has to suffer the concequence at some point, whether it be malicious or just general piss taking.  Now the more gay people voice the fact that they are so hard done by ( in the UK and other like minded countries ) the more people will look at this group of people and make judgements.  That's the sad truth of it. 

There are so many gay people with the attitude "I'm gay, so what, I don't care what you think, why, have you got a problem with it..? etc", negative from the outset,  thinking that everyone will be bigoted and not able to accept this fact, when in my experience there are more people who just don't care whether someone is gay, black, fat, whatever... big deal ...so what..!

totster 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now I'm bored senseless again.

[ProThaiExpat]

I still think this thread is lively and productive because it is far more educational than the posters realize. Look at all the readers!!

Totster: I wonder if "I don't care" are your true feelings or whether you mean "It doesn't matter to me" "It doesn't affect me"? etc.

Those of us in a minority, and I include falang in Thailand, whites in Los Angeles, blacks in America, gays in the world, if we tap into the feelings we have about being in a minority, especially if we are in a discriminated minority. we can approach understanding of this thread.

Many posters complain, ad naseum, about higher admission fees for falang in Thailand. Discrimination for sure.

Blacks in the civil rights movement in the U.S. (Interesting now that many black ministers are against gays being given the same rights that they fought for)

Militancy is foregn to many of us, but it was the "flamers" of the gay community who have done the most to advance "gay" equality by bringing attention to what most like to "sweep under the carpet".

A good friend of mine was a very black Mr. America in the 80's who when he would arrive late to a party of mine, would bring a hushed, nervous break in the conversation by just entering the room. A true gentle giant, it was his size and color that did it. How he must have suffered by this reaction to his just "being". The studies of otherwise un-bigoted whites encountering a black man in a deserted public parking garage is proof enough of this phenomina.

Likewise, gays, if we look, walk, talk and act like the general populace, we can avoid discrimination, however, we do nothing to advance the cause of gay rights.

The benefit of a forum such as this is we can discuss our feelings, if we choose to and educate others, without the barrier of appearance. Especially, if we attack an issue raised and not the poster who raised it.

[ProThaiExpat]

meadishsweetball: I can agree with what you posted, all except with your disagreement with my posting, because are points diverge. Your point that there is much open prejudice in Thailand is so correct, especially when referring to "class".

My point is that many Thai men engage in opportunistic same-sex-sex without a thought, and without telling anyone.

Many gay Thais have told me that with the correct approach, usually free drinks and a dinner, most Thai men will permit fellatio to be performed on them without a thought. They are just being nice.

In the West, due to the Christian-Judean culture and the foistered guilt complex attached, the same situation would engender post sexual disharmony, perhaps outright gay bashing, if it was permitted at all.

I agree that if gay rights ever becomes a big issue in Thailand, it would have as big a difficulty gaining recognition as in the west.

[Thomas_Merton]

Many gay Thais have told me that with the correct approach, usually free drinks and a dinner, most Thai men will permit fellatio to be performed on them without a thought.  They are just being nice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is really interesting the differences in sexuality between gays and hetro men.

Just slightly rewriting your sentence to illustrate the point:

Many hetro men have told me that with the correct approach, usually free drinks and a dinner, most hetro men will permit fellatio to be performed on them without a thought. They are just being nice (and the girl's being quite nice too).

Edited May 25, 2005 by Thomas_Merton

[Totster]

Totster: I wonder if "I don't care" are your true feelings or whether you mean "It doesn't matter to me" "It doesn't affect me"? etc.

Good point. I think where I am concerned "it doesn't matter to me" is probably more appropriate. And speaking for many people I know it's the same for them. IMO people (in the UK at least but I suspect the same for Europe) are becoming disinterested in whether someone gay or not. It is an everyday occurance and with that comes exceptance. I'm not saying that gay people won't get strange looks and be discriminated against, but it will be from a decreasing number of people.

Saying that.... "it doesn't affect me" also rings true, because it doesn't affect me. What people do in their own life is up to them

I just wish that when someone says that they are gay, they don't then immediately become defensive, when it isn't needed.

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

Not to be defensive or anything, but which of us is it that gets to decide whether it's necessary or not to be defensive?

Edited May 25, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[Totster]

Not to be defensive or anything, but which of us is it that gets to decide whether it's necessary or not to be defensive?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok... fine.... point taken.

totster

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Totster said: "I see you fell the need to seperate us by calling me "a straight poster". You have made this distinction, and by doing so have created "them and us".

OK, Totster, i admit i was presumptuous in calling you a "straight poster" I do not know for certain what you sexuality is, and therefore what i should have said was that a "presumably straight poster said"...

However, to deal with your substantive point, there ARE differences in how a a straight person will view this issue to compared to a gay one. I have not created the "them and us". It exists already.

I know that there is a view (what might be called the PC viewpoint i suppose) that we should all hold hands together and skip over the rainbow and not acknowledge any divergence between how gay and straight people view this issue, based on different life experience of gay and straight people.

However, that is not my view. I believe that a clear picture of what it is like to be gay can be very difficult for a straight man (or woman) to achieve as thay do not have the expereienc of years of pretending to be straight, and wishing they were normal, and having to come out, and seeing the gay scene (not just in its more fashionable or outrageous manifestations) from the inside, and seeing their friensds interactions with straight people, etc.etc. for their lifetime. To claim that a liberal straight person can easily have a genuine empathy with gay people is I think pretty unlikely. Sorry if you find that unappealing, Totster, but thats my view.

Now, you claim that you reread over your previous post and and "can't see any mention of "whining". "

Well, i will concede that you did not use that word, but here is a direct quote from what you said earlier :

"Oh...gay men and women are so hard done by in the UK/Ireland aren't they..... why don't you go to Pakistan and walk hand in hand with your gay partner and see what happens, then you will be thankful of where you live..."

I dont know, maybe i am too sensitive (or even "defensive" perhaps), but i took that as a comment on the previous posters (me included) that had talked about the difficulties of living as a gay person in the UK/Ireland, that we should be grateful for what we have got in our home countries. Maybe I was misreading your point, but it still seems to be a rebuke to us that we were being ...well, "whining".

Edited May 25, 2005 by RonanTheBarbarian

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Anytime the "gay forum" becomes less gettoed the better.

Finally... ...The 'Gay For A Day' title opening post was not based on a serious long time yearning, more of a passing thought - and I also did it to get attention and see what the reaction would be, and it has been interseting.

One thing I have noticed on this forum is that the gay section and the rest of the forum rarely cross paths and I thought it would be interesting to lure the straight members in here, knowing that my name in the gay forum would spark intrigue but not quite knowing the outcome, yet at the same time hoping it wouldn't turn into a silly post which wouldn't have done me any favours.

I agree, Totster also made a very valid point on the previous page regarding the 'them and us' status, that statement can swing both ways - excuse the pun.

Edited May 25, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[RonanTheBarbarian]

I would like to add that, i (along with most other gay people i think) do not go around with a chip on my shoulder the whole time.

In fact my first reaction in seeing Scamps's post was "If he is going to be gay for a day, I wonder is he cute? - perhaps i should suggest that he spends that gay day with me!"

And you know it is funny - sometimes it is not the more militant gays that have the greatest "us and them" attitude, in our hearts. Totster might be surprised to know that I have many straight friends that I dont spend the whole time arguing with.

However, recently I was talking to a gay friend of mine who is very conservative on "gay rights" issues. He is in a long-term monogamous relationship with his boyfriend, and he would never go to Gay pride because he thinks that all the drag queens make a show of the gay community, and he thinks that gay people pushing for full marriage equality are being needlessly provocative to the majority community.

Anyway we were talking, and he said somrthing that shocked me a little. He said that even though he had many straight friends, he sometimes felt very paranoid and wonders "All those straight friends of mine who are seemingly accepting of my sexuality; are they really? I don't really know what's inside their minds."

I was taken aback because as i say he is quite conservative and I though that he fitted in very well with his straight friends. To think that he was going about thinking that of them (when he was feeling a bit paranoid) was a surprise.

I don't tend to think like that of my straight friends at all.

When i told him this he was disinclined to believe me as he claimed he thought every gay man thinks like him, deep down

But personally, i do not. Perhaps i am too naive, but perhaps he is too paranoid - i dont know.

But it is perhaps a salutary note to straights out there that more "tame" gays may not REALLY like you all that much more in their hearts than us irritating "militant types"

Anyway, that was just a rather long-winded way of saying that trying to tell us gays to not be defensive or chippy is a bit of a waste of time - we will react to the society that is around us. We will become less defensive when the majority society ends the offensive against us.

Ronan.

Edited May 25, 2005 by RonanTheBarbarian

[Totster]

I have not created the "them and us". It exists already.

Ok... I'll concede that it already exists... but if gay people continue to promote it, how will it go away...??

However, that is not my view.  I believe that a clear picture of what it is like to be gay can  be very difficult for a straight man (or woman) to achieve as thay do not have the expereienc of years of pretending to be straight, and wishing they were normal, and having to come out, and seeing the gay scene (not just in its more fashionable or outrageous manifestations) from the inside, and seeing their friensds interactions with straight people, etc.etc. for their lifetime. To claim that a liberal straight person can easily have a genuine empathy with gay people is I think pretty unlikely. Sorry if you find that unappealing, Totster, but thats my view.

I believe you are probably right.... I can't begin to know what gay people go through before and after coming out... that's true.

Well, i will concede that you did not use that word, but here is a direct quote from what you said earlier :

"Oh...gay men and women are so hard done by in the UK/Ireland aren't they..... why don't you go to Pakistan and walk hand in hand with your gay partner and see what happens, then you will be thankful of where you live..."

I already covered this earlier

Well I didn't say anything was untrue.... The thing is, everybody has to deal with some sort of prejudice in everyday life, and deals with it... as long as there are humans in the world there will be prejudice..... I just though it would be better to remember that there are some in the world that suffer a lot more through prejudice than just a "funny look". You must seem quite lucky to these people.

Maybe I was too sarcastic in my first post.... it's just that whenever a subject like this is broached all I see is negative negative negative.... for me it just gets tiresome.

It's as if we have pussy foot around any group thats in a minority so we don't hurt their feelings... well sorry not me... I'm sorry Ronan if you don't find that appealing.

I dont know, maybe i am too sensitive (or even "defensive" perhaps), but i took that as a comment on the previous posters (me included) that had  talked about the difficulties of living as a gay person in the UK/Ireland, that we should be grateful for what we have got in our home countries. Maybe I was misreading your point, but it still seems to be a rebuke to us that we were being ...well, "whining".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After reading my post I have to agree, it does seem like a rebuke - maybe I did mean you were whining after all....

Anyway... I just think you went a bit deep, what I mean is I rather thought that Scampy was having a more light hearted view about this, not to say it wasn't a seriousish topic, but more of a light hearted one. Then people like yourself started posting about "how could you know what we have gone through" and such like, turning this thread into a dark look at what gay people have gone through in their everyday life... as if we haven't heard it all before.

Steve2UK - Hope I'm not boring you senseless again.

totster

[PeaceBlondie]

I didn't come out publicly in my home country, completely. Not at work, even though it was practically against the law to discriminate against me in the workplace. I just didn't want the complication. That may have been cowardly, but I had a very busy full time job, especially when I was a manager. 'My plate was full' already. Sorry if my fellow gays consider that was a cop-out. But I went to gay venues if I wanted to, dated, etc. Didn't live in the gay neighborhood, though.

Perhaps the point I'm trying to make is this: even these last two years in Thailand, when I worked full time teaching and lived with a boyfriend and had gay expatriate friends, I didn't come out at work. It was hard enough, being the only farang on a campus with 3,300 students and 155 Thai teachers, without having to try to communicate about a much more complicated topic. Even around the home neighborhood, I didn't parade around as "Miss Priss" or "Miss Thing." You buy groceries, swim in the pool, go to the movies (well, maybe hand in hand there) - you live a life.

Straight people - unless you're a serious sex addict, doesn't a working career primarily amount to nonsexual activities? You don't talk incessantly about whether last night's romp in the hay was good, large or small, etc. Unless you're psychotically macho, you don't walk around everywhere saying, "First let me state that I'm active as a heterosexual, penetrating female organs with my large male organ."

Was it Charlie Pride who sang, "Nobody knows what goes on, behind closed doors"?

[Thomas_Merton]

I feel certain sadness in reading these last few posts in this thread.

Primarily because there seems to me, despite the obvious differences, a common dilemma underlining the feelings expressed by the Gays and the Straights.

To talk of a great divide is false. The norms and morals of the nurturing society in which both the Gays and the straights have grown up in, have been the same. Anglo –Saxon puritanical pressures and ignorance has created huge holes in the psycho-sexual maturity of both sides of the bathroom. Each has had their development towards sexual freedom stunted. Each has felt a need in some way to seek this sexual freedom within the sexual licence of Thailand.

But licence is not liberty. Licence is not freedom. Within Thai society there are just as many prejudices concerning sexuality as in the USA, UK or Australasia. These are perhaps shielded and disguised in a way sophisticated to the farang, without the overt brutality of the old countries, but they are there nevertheless. Also imported, and often expressed on this forum, by fellow ex-pats, are views and understandings on sexual matters that, to say the least, are so primitive; one would think nothing had been learnt since the days of Oliver Cromwell.

30 years ago I had a conversation with a 25 year old Swedish girl, who said to me, in her opinion, every English speaking man she had ever met had the sexual maturity of a 12 year old. Offended as I was, I demanded an explanation. She recalled several sexual experiences she had had with various men, explaining the reasons why this or that relationship had not been successful. As she saw the incomprehension slowly creeping over my face, she, rather exasperatedly remarked, “Look when you swear, every word you use has a sexual reference. In Swedish, this is meaninglessly inoffensive, sexual words have no dirty connotations. Don’t you see how your society has made unclean the act of love?”

As luck had it, I became stationed for the next 20 years in Scandinavia (Denmark), where I met my first wife and where my two older children received their education. During that period my own sexuality was tried and tested, exposed to the severe scrutiny of Scandinavian psychology. Whether I have exorcised any of the demons of my previous life, only others can tell, but in my children I see a sexual maturity of which I am immensely proud. Bad language, pornography and sexual innuendo are never a part of their daily life. My children have, as all do, sexual relationships. These they administer with a coolness I can only admire.

They also work and play with friends of all sexual persuasions, treating these differences, no more importantly than one would the colour of an associates’ hair.

This is the norm in Scandinavia. Why, oh, why do people who feel their sexuality repressed in their home country, torment themselves in Thailand?

[The Gentleman Scamp]

As luck had it, I became stationed for the next 20 years in Scandinavia (Denmark), where I met my first wife and where my two older children received their education. During that period my own sexuality was tried and tested, exposed to the severe scrutiny of Scandinavian psychology. Whether I have exorcised any of the demons of my previous life, only others can tell, but in my children I see a sexual maturity of which I am immensely proud. Bad language, pornography and sexual innuendo are never a part of their daily life. My children have, as all do, sexual relationships. These they administer with a coolness I can only admire.

Danish women are wonderful from my limited experience and I agree that they do have a different attitude to sexual swearwords and are more liberated towards sex in general.

I doubt they are as celebrity obsessed and insecure as modern Britain either.

********************************************************************

Before this strays off topic though, I would like to post the lyrics to a song I hread last year from an album by a band called The Beautiful South called Gaze...

Excellent lyrics that should prompt some discussion...

I've seen these people described as mad

But find men kissing too odd

Say all their friends are gay when in fact

They gave a man in tight vest a quick nod

And all those threats if you keep kissing

They're gonna go report you to god

Yet if Christ really had that many disciples

There was probably one of you in his squad

And any news you receive would lead you to believe

Of the other world little is known

So that every gay presenter should really wear a sweater

With kids don't try this at home

There are gay men you've knocked homophobics clean out

When most would have turned and ran

Gay men who hate it when they get called queer

And gay men who don't give a ######

Some gay men go wearing women's makeup

Just to prove to themselves they can

And on the masculine side of this whole wide world

There is no 101% man

Those who have only seen Gay Pride

Think it's a life long license to shock

But men have kissed men since way back when

If you were caught you'd be put in a stock

And any news you receive would lead you to believe

Of the other world little is known

So that every gay presenter should really wear a sweater

With kids don't try this at home

There are gay men who've knocked homophobics clean out

When most would have turned and ran

Gay men who hate it when they get called queer

And gay men who don't give a damm

Some gay men go wearing women's makeup

Just to prove to themselves they can

And on the masculine side of this whole wide world

There's no 101% man

And when the Tom Robinson band sang

"Sing if you're glad to be gay"

We all joined in, and though most of us weren't

The song seemed to show us the way

And as the song reached it's end you looked for the friend that

That made singing along feel O.K

It aint San Francisco but your end of term disco

And the dancefloor's beginning to sway

There are gay who've knocked homophobices clean out

When most would have turned and ran

Gay men who hate it when they get called queer

And gay men who don't give a damm

Some gay men go wearing women's makeup

Just to prove to themselves they can

And on the masculine side of this whole wide world

There's no 101% man.

Edited May 25, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[ProThaiExpat]

Humor and lighheartedness when discussing gay issues is quite common and it is the the way straights deal with a subject that makes most straights nervous. Gay T.V. shows must be humerous to be popular among the majorty straight world. Need I remind of the early film days when most blacks were cast in humerous roles.

The scars of discrimination are deep otherwise gays would join in the humor. Straights should expect defensive behaviour from infringed minorities.

The Prime Minister of Canada recently said befor the parliment that he couldn't put the issue of same-sex-marriage before the electorate, as it was the obligation of the legislature to protect a minority from the tyranny of the majority.

When one is in the majority, it is quite difficult to cut through the "society argument", since society is the majority by definition.

When anti-mixed marriage laws were struck down in the U.S. in 1954 by the Supreme Court, more than 80% of the electorate were against mixed marriage. Thus, any argument that, what society dictates rules, is fatuous when it comes to civil rights. The whole push for states ammending their constitutions to prevent same-sex-marriage is a blantant admission that if they don't, the courts will act to enforce this basic civil right. Even the Cathlolic church today welcomes mixed marriages, anathema to them prior to 1954. So much for society's dictates and the will of the majority when it comes to gay issues.

Imagine, the Pope summoning the Prime Minister of Spain for a "dressing down" on the issue of same-sex-marriage before it even became a proposed law. The utter gall. Dictatorship of the majority is a fact of life and the creator of defensiveness in minorities in and of itself.

If your of the mind that gays must "get over" the majority not approving of their lifestyle and their basic civil rights at the present time, the majority of straights must "get over" gays being just a bit "prickly" when it comes to thier attitude toward straights in society these days.

Edited May 26, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[Guest endure]

Oh...gay men and women are so hard done by in the UK/Ireland aren't they..... why don't you go to Pakistan and walk hand in hand with your gay partner and see what happens, then you will be thankful of where you live... 

If you walk around hand in hand with another man in Pakistan (or most of the Middle East) no-one will blink an eye as hand-holding between males is indicative of friendship and is a widely spread practice.

[Thomas_Merton]

...

This is the norm in Scandinavia. Why, oh, why do people who feel their sexuality repressed in their home country, torment themselves in Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(just corrected a grammatical error in my last sentence, and made some other changes to clarify my point)

This is the norm in Scandinavia. Why, oh, why do people who feel they are sexuality repressed in their home country, torment themselves in Thailand, the country that allows them sex but denies them the right to live and love?

Is not, pretending you are free until your visa runs out, just as bad as playing Gay for a day?

Edited May 26, 2005 by Thomas_Merton

[Totster]

Oh...gay men and women are so hard done by in the UK/Ireland aren't they..... why don't you go to Pakistan and walk hand in hand with your gay partner and see what happens, then you will be thankful of where you live... 

If you walk around hand in hand with another man in Pakistan (or most of the Middle East) no-one will blink an eye as hand-holding between males is indicative of friendship and is a widely spread practice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I did say "with your gay partner", not just any old male. Maybe to make the experience more real they can do a bit of heavy petting as well.

totster