One Parent + Child Travel (consent?)

[wkrolph]

Hi,

I've been on here before when asking questions regarding divorce and custody in Thailand.

I am Canadian and my ex is Thai. We were married in Thailand. I subsequently got pregnant, moved back to Canada and our son was born in Canada. The father is listed on the original birth certificate.

Long story short, our marriage broke down shortly after our son was born. Since travel back to Thailand was not an option for me at the time and seeing as my son was so young I decided to proceed with a divorce and custody in Canada, of which everything is complete. We are divorced by Canadian law, but as far as I'm aware we are still "legally" married as per Thai law. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a Canadian order for custody and travel without consent of the father - I know this would not stand up in Thailand because they have totally different laws.

My question is, if my son was never registered as a Thai national, will I have problems in Thailand (arriving or departing) if I ever decide to go there on holidays with my son alone? I do not have contact with the father and can not get any kind of letter from him to give permission. Are there any documents that I can get from the Thai courts to make it easier to travel with my son, without permission of the father?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Mario2008]

You are divorced also according to Thai law, although the Thai register probably still shows you as married. You could contact the Thai embassy and see if you can notify them of the divorce.

This might be helpful: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/divorce-in...-under-thai-law

Different is the situation of the custody of your son. That might not be recognized under Thai law, but I doubt that as your son was born in Canada. (By the way, he is also Thai by way of his father. The Thai government just isn't aware of him being Thai).

For Thailand you do not need the fathers consent to travel with your son. What the father could do is try to get custody over the child, if he wanted that. But Thai courts act in the interest of the child, so they will award you the child.

[wkrolph]

You are divorced also according to Thai law, although the Thai register probably still shows you as married. You could contact the Thai embassy and see if you can notify them of the divorce.

This might be helpful: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/divorce-in...-under-thai-law

Different is the situation of the custody of your son. That might not be recognized under Thai law, but I doubt that as your son was born in Canada. (By the way, he is also Thai by way of his father. The Thai government just isn't aware of him being Thai).

For Thailand you do not need the fathers consent to travel with your son. What the father could do is try to get custody over the child, if he wanted that. But Thai courts act in the interest of the child, so they will award you the child.

Thanks for the link. I will check into it, although I am not sure that that will necessarily prevent problems when travelling. Perhaps I worded my question wrong. How much concern should I have about entering and leaving Thailand without parental consent from the father?

Thanks

[Mario2008]

In reality, none. Especially if the father doesn't know you are there.

You should be careful if the father knows you are ccomming and wants costudy over the child or has an unsolved argument with you. Than thinks can get nasty, in the sense of a court battle, but in the end you will still have costudy over the child.

[phuketrichard]

Mine is close to the same BUT a few slight diferneces. I was married in America and divorced in Thailand.

I petioned the court for sole custody at the same time as the divorce in the courts in thailand and was granted becasue she never bothered showing up in court.

All you need do is go to the thai emabassy and show them your divorce papers so that they may amend their records. As you have sole custody you would never have any trouble. You can also claim thai citizenship for your son and he can get a thai passport in Canada if u wish BUT he would also possible need to serve in the military as all thai men do. He can keep both .

as to travelling to thailand. How would he know you were?? I would advise against visiting the childs thai grandparents thou cause for sure they would tell their son you were there. A pity but....

Edited April 4, 2010 by phuketrichard

[wkrolph]

Mine is close to the same BUT a few slight diferneces. I was married in America and divorced in Thailand.

I petioned the court for sole custody at the same time as the divorce in the courts in thailand and was granted becasue she never bothered showing up in court.

All you need do is go to the thai emabassy and show them your divorce papers so that they may amend their records. As you have sole custody you would never have any trouble. You can also claim thai citizenship for your son and he can get a thai passport in Canada if u wish BUT he would also possible need to serve in the military as all thai men do. He can keep both .

as to travelling to thailand. How would he know you were?? I would advise against visiting the childs thai grandparents thou cause for sure they would tell their son you were there. A pity but....

Thanks again for all the great feedback! Some issues have come to light and my ex and I are trying to keep things civil and communicate about the divorce/custody issues. I will be sending him the divorce certificate from Canada and he is going to register the divorce at the Amphur in Bangkok. I have asked him to make a statement saying I have sole custody of my son and that I am permitted to travel without his consent (i.e. in and out of Thailand). I am not sure if he will agree to it yet, but I have told him that I will draft a document that he can present to the Amphur with both our signatures on it. IS there anything that anyone feels is pertinent to be on that document as it pertains to custody/travel/etc?

I don't think that anyone would ever take my son from me, but like you said you never know. And seeing as Thailand is not signatory to the Hague convention, if he ever was, it would be a nightmare getting him back. I want to make sure that I'm doing everything I possibly can to avoid legal issues, and to make sure I have legal power before taking my son there. If everything is in order than I don't have any problems taking him to visit his father....I have not made that decision 100% yet, but I have thought about it.....so, any advice on that matter is appreciated.

Thanks again,

Wendy

[wkrolph]

P.S. I do NOT wish to obtain a Thai passport for my son, or have him registered as a Thai if I can help it. If he wants that when he is older that is fine, but not under 18 years old. Just want to protect him as much as I can and of course, as a mother, would rather him not serve in any army, especially if his "home" is in Canada now.

[MikeyIdea]

P.S. I do NOT wish to obtain a Thai passport for my son, or have him registered as a Thai if I can help it. If he wants that when he is older that is fine, but not under 18 years old. Just want to protect him as much as I can and of course, as a mother, would rather him not serve in any army, especially if his "home" is in Canada now.

Army is not a problem at all, it is just to request to be exempted and state reason and it will be granted. The Thai army doesn't want westernised Thais who has been taught to question everything to join their ranks

Western law and perception in many countries is that children should have nothing or very little to say about custody etc. The value of the childs opinion generally starts to be recognised later in western interpretations of family law and it does generally not carry the same weight either. Thai family law always mentions the child first, then father and mother. I am not implying anything about this case so please do not be offended but shouldn't formal Thai citizenship be the childs decision much much earlier than you say?

[Mario2008]

P.S. I do NOT wish to obtain a Thai passport for my son, or have him registered as a Thai if I can help it. If he wants that when he is older that is fine, but not under 18 years old. Just want to protect him as much as I can and of course, as a mother, would rather him not serve in any army, especially if his "home" is in Canada now.

If his home is in Canada, he doesn't have to serve in Thailand. Only when he lives, ( is registered on a hosehold book in Thailand), will he have to go to the drafting process.

[wkrolph]

P.S. I do NOT wish to obtain a Thai passport for my son, or have him registered as a Thai if I can help it. If he wants that when he is older that is fine, but not under 18 years old. Just want to protect him as much as I can and of course, as a mother, would rather him not serve in any army, especially if his "home" is in Canada now.

Army is not a problem at all, it is just to request to be exempted and state reason and it will be granted. The Thai army doesn't want westernised Thais who has been taught to question everything to join their ranks

Western law and perception in many countries is that children should have nothing or very little to say about custody etc. The value of the childs opinion generally starts to be recognised later in western interpretations of family law and it does generally not carry the same weight either. Thai family law always mentions the child first, then father and mother. I am not implying anything about this case so please do not be offended but shouldn't formal Thai citizenship be the childs decision much much earlier than you say?

Thanks for your comments. I don't believe that Canada puts the parents first with regards to custody. The child always comes first with regards to custody and what is in their best interest, regardless of where they live - Canada, Thailand, UK, etc. If any child said to me at 5 years of age that they wanted to gain their right to a certain citizenship, I would reply by saying that they are incapable of making that decision at such a young age. Especially, when all their family members are in their current country of residence...except of course for a parent that has had nothing to do with them since their birth. The line at which to let a young adult make their own decisions is one that is thin and imaginary and up to each parent to decide when they're ready....when to allow them to make their own decisions in such matters is one that needs to be respected, but also is unique to each individual. If I feel that my son is capable of making that decision at a younger age, then great. However, I can't see anyone making an informed, practical decision before their teens, which is why I chose 18, which is also the age of majority in Canada. I am also assuming that my son will be a productive member of Canadian society, which includes him going to school. Typically, people here finish college or university at at 21 or 22 years of age, if they choose to go at all. There is so much that Canada has to offer that I don't see why he would choose to abandon it, although I can see why he would want to know about his roots and where he came from. It will be his decision when and if he wants Thai citizenship, however, until he's capable of making that decision then it is the parents duty to make decisions for him.

Being so young and with all the issues that Thailand currently has, I would not be taking him there unless everything is legal for me to do so in a court of Thai law, and then only to visit and have a holiday and show him where he came from...not to live forever. I would not want any of my ex's family members "stealing" my child and me have no way to get him back to his home in Canada. Crazy things happen, and I know Thailand all too well....a beautiful country with beautiful people who love children and also one that has some laws that are quite different from the West. My choice to keep him a sole Canadian citizen at this point is to make it easier to travel there and keep his safety in mind. Things change as soon as you register them as Thai and want to travel without the other parent.

Again, all of this is a matter of opinion and I don't mean to come across as anti-Thai. I love the place and am sure that my son will too....I just want to protect him as a mother would until he's able to make informed decisions on his own.

[Mario2008]

I doubt that you can divorce at the amphur, without going there yourself.

Regarding your childs nationality, he already has Thai nationality. Only the Thai government isn't aware that a Thai citizen was born, as they have no record of his birth.

A Thai court will also takes the child interest at heart, not that of the parents.

[wkrolph]

I doubt that you can divorce at the amphur, without going there yourself.

Regarding your childs nationality, he already has Thai nationality. Only the Thai government isn't aware that a Thai citizen was born, as they have no record of his birth.

A Thai court will also takes the child interest at heart, not that of the parents.

My ex (who is currently in Spain with his new gf) says that he is going to take the divorce papers (from Canada) that I am sending him, to the Thai Embassy in Spain to register the divorce. As far as I know, as long as they're certified by the Thai Embassy in Canada, then he will be able to do this.? It does not matter to me where it's registered, but would prefer it done at the Amphur where we were married, just so that everything is guaranteed to be resolved in Thailand. I am also told that he can submit a statement to any Thai embassy stating that I am to have sole custody of our child, and that will be suffice...should i trust him that this is accurate???

Thanks again

[Mario2008]

I forgot you are already divorced in Canada, but need to notify the Thai government. Make sure the papers are properly certified, it is going to be complicated as they will go from Canada to Spain to the Thai Embassy. It will need some signatures to certify they are true.

Normaly with a divorce at an amphur you can enter arrangements regarding the children, including that you will have sole custody. So I guess that would be the same at the embassy. I would ask the Embassy in Canada about it, also about how to certify the papers for the Embassy in Spain. It might be easier if you do it yourself in Canada.