Royal Language

[bhoydy]

I'm translating something at the moment (as best as i can) and i always get really stuck with the formal Royal language. Can anyone help with this bit, please?

หนังตะลุงครั้งนั้นเกิดขึ้นตรงกับรัชสมัยพระบาทสมเด็จพระนั่งเกล้าเจ้าอยู่หัวรัชกาลที่ ๓ แห่งกรุงรัตนโกสินทร์

[aanon]

The long title is referring to the third king of the Rattanakosin period. You might refer to him as Rama III, or King Jessadabodindra, or look around the net for other possible titles based on this starting point.

Hope that helps.

[bhoydy]

The long title is referring to the third king of the Rattanakosin period. You might refer to him as Rama III, or King Jessadabodindra, or look around the net for other possible titles based on this starting point.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for that, i understand that it was the reign of the 3rd King of the Rattanakosin period. What i'm trying to work out is all the other formal language in the title. When we translate that to English does it just disappear or could we use some of those words? For instance, สมเด็จ would translate as great or most excellent. Does that, as a word, just disappear in the translation or could it be included along the lines of 'in the reign of the 3rd great/most excellent King of the Rattanakosin era?

[dobadoy]

The long title is referring to the third king of the Rattanakosin period. You might refer to him as Rama III, or King Jessadabodindra, or look around the net for other possible titles based on this starting point.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for that, i understand that it was the reign of the 3rd King of the Rattanakosin period. What i'm trying to work out is all the other formal language in the title. When we translate that to English does it just disappear or could we use some of those words? For instance, สมเด็จ would translate as great or most excellent. Does that, as a word, just disappear in the translation or could it be included along the lines of 'in the reign of the 3rd great/most excellent King of the Rattanakosin era?

It's part of the title/name and is untranslatable into English in any way that would connote the required level of respect. English tranlsations of honorable titles along the lines of "the great most excellent ....' always sound like mockery, which is definitely not what you want with this subject.

[bhoydy]

The long title is referring to the third king of the Rattanakosin period. You might refer to him as Rama III, or King Jessadabodindra, or look around the net for other possible titles based on this starting point.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for that, i understand that it was the reign of the 3rd King of the Rattanakosin period. What i'm trying to work out is all the other formal language in the title. When we translate that to English does it just disappear or could we use some of those words? For instance, สมเด็จ would translate as great or most excellent. Does that, as a word, just disappear in the translation or could it be included along the lines of 'in the reign of the 3rd great/most excellent King of the Rattanakosin era?

It's part of the title/name and is untranslatable into English in any way that would connote the required level of respect. English tranlsations of honorable titles along the lines of "the great most excellent ....' always sound like mockery, which is definitely not what you want with this subject.

With all respect, that is a matter of opinion, rather than fact which is what i am looking for. I, for one, don't see any mockery there.

[aanon]

Well, this is a question which requires a good knowledge of Pali/Sanskrit and Buddhism, as well as perhaps Brahmanism, royal history and a number of other subjects. Which is to say that I can't help you much here. As a translator, I would use the accepted English title for the person, accepting some loss of information for the sake of clarity and brevity. I'm sure there is a lot to be learned, of course, by analysing the full name. I would certainly be interested in such an analysis. For anyone who wants to try, here is the full version:

"สมเด็จพระบรมราชาธิราชรามาธิบดี ศรีสินทรบรมมหาจักรพรรดิราชาธิบดินทร์ ธรณินทราธิราช รัตนากาศภาสกรวงศ์ องค์ปรมาธิเบศร์ ตรีภูวเนตรวรนายก ดิลกรัตนราชชาติอาชาวไสย สมุทัยดโรมน สากลจักรวาลาธิเบนทร์ สุริเยนทราธิบดินทร์ หริหรินทราธาธิบดี ศรีสุวิบูลย คุณอถพิษฐ ฤทธิราเมศวร ธรรมิกราชาธิราช เดโชชัย พรหมเทพาดิเทพนฤบดินทร์ ภูมินทรปรมาธิเบศร โลกเชษฐวิสุทธิ มงกุฏประเทศคตา มหาพุทธางกูร บรมบพิตร พระพุทธเจ้าอยู่หัว"

[dobadoy]

With all respect, that is a matter of opinion, rather than fact which is what i am looking for. I, for one, don't see any mockery there.

Sure, you're right it was an opinion. The trouble is you won't find any 'facts' with regard this topic, or with translation - which is largely interpretative - in general. The key (IMHO ) with this sensitive subject is to hit on the appropriate tone of respect your intended audience expects.

Good luck with your efforts.

Edited March 30, 2010 by dobadoy

[bhoydy]

With all respect, that is a matter of opinion, rather than fact which is what i am looking for. I, for one, don't see any mockery there.

Sure, you're right it was an opinion. The trouble is you won't find any 'facts' with regard this topic, or with translation - which is largely interpretative - in general. The key (IMHO ) with this sensitive subject is to hit on the appropriate tone of respect your intended audience expects.

Good luck with your efforts.

Thanks for your opinion on the subject. The translation i'm looking for is not for the piece which i am translating, but rather it's something i would be interested in hearing about from someone who has perhaps studied the language at university level or has a great interest in the topic and could shed some light on the subject.

[Rikker]

For practical translation you'd lose most of the detail that is included by traditional convention, but that does not clarify the subject at all.

In this case:

Thai shadow plays became popular during the reign of King Rama III.

Or if you prefer:

Thai shadow plays became popular during the reign of King Jessadabodindra, third king of the Bangkok period.

I wouldn't translate any more literally than that, personally. And I also added "Thai" at the beginning to give it more context in English.

[HAL9000]

Thanks for that, i understand that it was the reign of the 3rd King of the Rattanakosin period. What i'm trying to work out is all the other formal language in the title. When we translate that to English does it just disappear or could we use some of those words? For instance, สมเด็จ would translate as great or most excellent. Does that, as a word, just disappear in the translation or could it be included along the lines of 'in the reign of the 3rd great/most excellent King of the Rattanakosin era?

Translating functions in a variety of means ranging from literal to functional, depending on the needs of the translation.

For example, a Greek New Testament for English readers wanting to know the meaning of the original might have the exact English word below each Greek word. While useful for academic understanding, it does not produce meaningful English phrases, much less comprehensible sentences.

On the other extreme is the functional translation where you produce the English as if the document were produced by an English writer without regard for the nuances of the original foreign language text. These translations, especially where poetry is involved, can be so far from the original intent of the author as to be hardly considered a good translation, so most translations try to balance the two to produce a compromise as a best effort at rendering the document.

So in your example, in English we normally would not say "great, most excellent King", although those words could certainly be uttered in an individual case, as, for example, if an MC was introducing the King for a speech. But the routine English way of rendering this would be to say, "in the reign of His Majesty, Rama III"

Edited April 4, 2010 by jkolak