Data Recovery (from External Lacie 2tb)

[guudboy]

Hi guys,

I turned into a helpless mad man when my only external hard drive storage (2TB Lacie brought over from the US) died 10 days ago. I'd appreciate if anyone could share comment or suggest a reasonably-priced data recovery service.

• Symptom: The drive is nearly full and about half of the 2TB is critical data (mostly work in excel, words, powerpoint, some irreplaceable personal audio/video files). Software could locate and connect to the drive and I could see the main single folder, but will not let me go further into the folder.
  

• Spent a few days corresponded with Lacie tech support in the US, very slow response and waste of time. They concluded that this is unlikely firmware/software issue and most likely hardware failure. They asked me to ship over the unit for warranty repair with no guarantee of any data recovery. Sounded like they would not bother to recover any data, simply throwing me a free repair or new unit.
  

• I took the unit to Pantip and had the unit opened. The unit is composed of 2 disks, 1TB each. They noticed one little piece of components in the main circuit board burned up. After direct connecting each disk to their system, they could get one disk running fine, and could see folders in this disk. The other disk does not spin, just silent. Their opinion of the possible problems are: 1) The short circuit of the main board cause all problem, they will try to locate spare part and fix the main board. or 2) The second drive was not running because, based on how the unit is constructed, the second disk is dependent upon the first disk and could not spin on its own if direct connected.
  

• I left this disk with these guys at Pantip for 5 days now, calling them several times, but they appeared always too busy to work on this (or even to talk to me) and preferred other easier work, like installing Windows OS on new laptops. I have spoken to Maxwell, who is the distributor of Lacie, they said, if recoverable, it will cost at the minimum 10,000 Baht and up. I really hope I don't have to go this route.
  

So now I am helpless. I'd appreciate any suggestion from anyone with any kind of expertise in this area. Or perhaps, recommendation to a reliable and reasonably-price data recovery service.

Thanks guys.

[niveknedwob]

The drives will be dependent on each other if formatted as a single volume - so I would expect you to be able to see the contents of the first one (which has the MBR) but not the second one if they are connected to a PC independently (as the PC would have no way of knowing the structure of the second HD).

If both drives are connected into a working, replacement, case then there is no reason why everything shouldn't be accessible - unless the second hard drive has indeed suffered a hardware failure.

"Intensive" data recovery from the second hard disk would be costly if treated as a 'stand-alone' disk ... but it depends on how much the target data is worth to you.

[stolidfeline]

The one drive will be extremely easy to recover. The other is probably also OK but missing a boot sector. In any case, modern recovery software running on any PC, such as Disk Doctor Recovery, would probably recover it easily. We do it every day. But ... it's probably too late now. The fact they say the second disk cannot spin on it's own shows they do not have much knowledge of disk drive operation. They might have meant it's a RAID setup, but there are only 2 drives, and since they can read one without the other, it's almost certainly not. So, it's usually easy enough unless the disk is physically damaged, because you have both drives which are probably identical. Transplanting the electronics from an identical drive usually is the easy way to get a failed drive going. That's why we keep a couple models of every disk drive made in the last 10 years or so on hand in the workshops.

Edited April 9, 2010 by stolidfeline

[kiwiinasia]

Pay the 10k.

[welo]

Good advise given so far from more knowledgeable people than I am. Still, I want to point out that you should try to clarify whether the second harddisk has a hardware failure or not.

You've said that some component on the 'mainboard' is broken - are you referring to the electronics of the 'enclosure' or to one of the actual harddisks?

As stolidfeline has already mentioned, there might have been a misunderstanding. Does the second drive really not spin up when connected to a power source (meaning no sound at all) or is it that the file system/data is just not accessible.

If the harddisk suffered a hardware failure you will need an expert to access the data (switch parts with an identical working harddisk), otherwise you will 'only' need the Lacie device (the 'enclosure', not the 2 harddisk) fixed or replaced.

I am basically just repeating what the other posters already said in one way or the other..

welo

[robblok]

Good advise given so far from more knowledgeable people than I am. Still, I want to point out that you should try to clarify whether the second harddisk has a hardware failure or not.

You've said that some component on the 'mainboard' is broken - are you referring to the electronics of the 'enclosure' or to one of the actual harddisks?

As stolidfeline has already mentioned, there might have been a misunderstanding. Does the second drive really not spin up when connected to a power source (meaning no sound at all) or is it that the file system/data is just not accessible.

If the harddisk suffered a hardware failure you will need an expert to access the data (switch parts with an identical working harddisk), otherwise you will 'only' need the Lacie device (the 'enclosure', not the 2 harddisk) fixed or replaced.

I am basically just repeating what the other posters already said in one way or the other..

welo

Like welo said get a identical lacy drive and try it else pay the 10.000 its not to much for important data. In future remind yourself that its better to invest a bit in a backup solution.

Many of us can close their business when they loose their data. I recently bought an real expensive setup to make sure all data is in raid 5 and will be copied at night to an internet server. Costly.. yes.. but feeling safe has its price too. I knew it could have been done cheaper but then i needed to do it manually and we all know how that goes.

[guudboy]

Thanks everyone for your inputs/opinions. I'm still trying and thought I posted some updates and questions for further opinions, in case this is the solution.

• Brought my 2TB Lacie to another shop. He opened and jumped each disk to his machine. Results: He noticed the burnt component on circuit board. First disk worked and he could see many partitions, including one large 900GB partition where my data is kept. The second drive was silent. He thought this box is RAID, both drives should be healthy but it's broke because of the main circuit board. He thought solution is to put both disks into new RAID box. Their shop didn't have RAID box, so asked me to come back in 2weeks.
  

• I also asked Lacie, who said this box is .........."proprietary" RAID0 system that cannot be manipulated. If I ever send this box to them, Lacie would not try to recover any data, but suggested I try "Data Rescue" software http://www.prosofteng.com/ to try to recover the data then send the box to them.
  

My questions:

1. What exactly is "proprietary" RAID0 ? If it is proprietary, do u think I can use the method that the guy suggested (put both disks into a new RAID box) to recover data? Will this method risk damage to the drive/disks, because it is "proprietary"?
   
2. Is anyone familiar with "Data Rescue" software? Do you think it can help recover data in my situation? Also, this means I have to plug in the box again, will this risk more damage to this broken drive?
   

Please share some thoughts/knowledge. Any opinion/suggestion shared is appreciated. Thank you!

Edited April 15, 2010 by guudboy

[robblok]

RAID 0

RAID 0 (striped disks) distributes data across multiple disks in ways that gives improved speed at any given instant. If one disk fails, however, all of the data on the array will be lost, as there is neither parity nor mirroring. In this regard, RAID 0 is somewhat of a misnomer, in that RAID 0 is non-redundant. A RAID 0 array requires a minimum of two drives. A RAID 0 configuration can be applied to a single drive provided that the RAID controller is hardware and not software (i.e. OS-based arrays) and allows for such configuration. This allows a single drive to be added to a controller already containing another RAID configuration when the user does not wish to add the additional drive to the existing array. In this case, the controller would be set up as RAID only (as opposed to SCSI in non-RAID configuration), which requires that each individual drive be a part of some sort of RAID array.

RAID 0 -- Striped Disk Array without Fault Tolerance: Provides data striping (spreading out blocks of each file across multiple disk drives) but no redundancy. This improves performance but does not deliver fault tolerance. If one drive fails then all data in the array is lost.

In short if one drive breaks the whole array of 2 drives is useless. The way i read it here it means in your situation even though 1 drive is readable its still useless. If it were raid 1 adding an other drive to the array would solve your problem because it would rebuild the array. Now its raid 0 and it seems your in trouble.

If the guy saw your data could he get it or not ?

http://spench.net/drupal/resources/raid0 hopefully the moderators will allow this link. I am in no way affiliated with it.

Edited April 16, 2010 by robblok

[welo]

Just to repeat what has already been said, but in more simple language. When writing files to the RAID each single file will not be placed on either one of the drives but parts of it will be written to one drive while other parts of the same file will be written to the other drive.

Hence if one disk fails maybe half of the data is lost and the file cannot be recovered as a whole. Recovering only parts of the file from the healthy drive contents is nearly impossible for most file types.

Sorry, if you have understood this already, just want to make sure.

I also assume that the File Allocation Table (the index of all files on the RAID) is located on the first harddrive, but of course holds the location of ALL files on the entire RAID. Actually I don't know how the FAT (File Allocation Table) is organized on RAID-0 setups, but since you said in your very first post that the IT shop could see folders on the first drive I assume that it somehow conforms to the standard and therefore can be read. However, I further assume that as soon as you try to copy one of the files the process will fail since the actual data to the file cannot be found. The files and folders seem to be present but it is actually only information on the structure and names you see, and the actual file contents is not accessible.

This is probably where the part about the 'proprietary' system comes into play. Maybe this File Allocation Table does not conform to standard RAID-0 and therefore can only be interpreted by LaCie's own firmware. It IS possible but I would not rely on this information given by the LaCie support too much. It might as well have been their effort to try to explain you that RAID-0 drives cannot be easily accessed individually. But a Google search might turn up an answer to this...

However, I am still confused about what exactly is wrong with the second harddrive. You did not really answer that question. Is the 'main circuit' on the 2nd harddisk broken or do you refer to some electronics in the RAID box.

You repeatedly stated that there is no sound from the second harddrive, so I conclude that it does not spin up and 'main circuit' refers to the electronics on the harddisk itself.

If the second harddisk has a hardware failure your best bet is a problem with the electronics. If the magnetic platters are severely damaged (maybe due to a head crash) it will be very difficult to recover.

Changing the electronics board on the harddrive with that from an identical working model can be done (by a professional) and should allow you to place the two harddrives back into the LaCie box and access the data. Of course, if the LaCie box is also damaged you will need to fix/replace this box, too.

Please remember that you should not do any WRITE operation to any of the disks. You risk that the data is corrupted or lost, especially if you try to access the harddisks individually with a non RAID0 system/driver.

Your best chance is to keep the first harddisk unaltered, then fix the second drive (by a professional), hoping that the magnetic platterns and therefore the data is still OK, and then find a way to access the setup (both disks together) with fitting RAID0 drivers.

If LaCie indeed uses a proprietary RAID0 system then this has to be the LaCie box, otherwise any RAID0 system (e.g. a Linux PC) might work. Of course this again is nothing for an average user and should be done by a professional who has experience with RAID systems.

For instance I would try that myself only if the data is not essential, like a mp3/movie archive which is 'nice-t0-have' but not a problem if the data is lost.

Most harddisk data recovery software will only work on a single drive, and maybe be able to recover data fragments (because the data for each file is spread over both disks). It actually depends on the RAID0 algorithm how big those data junks are. I guess small files might not be fragmented at all, but I do not have any experience on that matter.

The recovered data of fragmented files will be of very limited use, and most file types will not be accessible by the associated program and just report a 'corrupted file' error message or similar. You might be able to extract fragments of some text based formats, but it will be cumbersome work and, again, the results will be very disappointing. For instance from a Word or PDF document you will not be able to retrieve any formatting and layout information (if the file has been spread over 2 disks), just fragments of raw text.

I would consider that your last choice if you don't find a way to fix the 2nd harddrive and restore the RAID.

welo

[negreanu]

Invest in a Drobo for your next external storage devices.

[robblok]

Invest in a Drobo for your next external storage devices.

Or qnap, but only when you really want to protect your data. I have invested in one of those beasts and they are expensive but you get safety back for it . IMHO its only viable if your either rich or a business.

My Qnap 459 pro has 4 1tb drives in raid 5 and that means 3tb of safe space. I also let it back up automaticaly to a an USB drive every night. (my computer is turned off at that time). Later i will set it up that it also backs up to an internet server.

But for me my data means that i can make a living without it im nothing. I loose my income then.

Going to such extremes is stupid if you just backup some pictures or mp3's

[guudboy]

Just to repeat what has already been said, but in more simple language. When writing files to the RAID each single file will not be placed on either one of the drives but parts of it will be written to one drive while other parts of the same file will be written to the other drive.

Hence if one disk fails maybe half of the data is lost and the file cannot be recovered as a whole. Recovering only parts of the file from the healthy drive contents is nearly impossible for most file types.

Sorry, if you have understood this already, just want to make sure.

I also assume that the File Allocation Table (the index of all files on the RAID) is located on the first harddrive, but of course holds the location of ALL files on the entire RAID. Actually I don't know how the FAT (File Allocation Table) is organized on RAID-0 setups, but since you said in your very first post that the IT shop could see folders on the first drive I assume that it somehow conforms to the standard and therefore can be read. However, I further assume that as soon as you try to copy one of the files the process will fail since the actual data to the file cannot be found. The files and folders seem to be present but it is actually only information on the structure and names you see, and the actual file contents is not accessible.

This is probably where the part about the 'proprietary' system comes into play. Maybe this File Allocation Table does not conform to standard RAID-0 and therefore can only be interpreted by LaCie's own firmware. It IS possible but I would not rely on this information given by the LaCie support too much. It might as well have been their effort to try to explain you that RAID-0 drives cannot be easily accessed individually. But a Google search might turn up an answer to this...

However, I am still confused about what exactly is wrong with the second harddrive. You did not really answer that question. Is the 'main circuit' on the 2nd harddisk broken or do you refer to some electronics in the RAID box.

You repeatedly stated that there is no sound from the second harddrive, so I conclude that it does not spin up and 'main circuit' refers to the electronics on the harddisk itself.

If the second harddisk has a hardware failure your best bet is a problem with the electronics. If the magnetic platters are severely damaged (maybe due to a head crash) it will be very difficult to recover.

Changing the electronics board on the harddrive with that from an identical working model can be done (by a professional) and should allow you to place the two harddrives back into the LaCie box and access the data. Of course, if the LaCie box is also damaged you will need to fix/replace this box, too.

Please remember that you should not do any WRITE operation to any of the disks. You risk that the data is corrupted or lost, especially if you try to access the harddisks individually with a non RAID0 system/driver.

Your best chance is to keep the first harddisk unaltered, then fix the second drive (by a professional), hoping that the magnetic platterns and therefore the data is still OK, and then find a way to access the setup (both disks together) with fitting RAID0 drivers.

If LaCie indeed uses a proprietary RAID0 system then this has to be the LaCie box, otherwise any RAID0 system (e.g. a Linux PC) might work. Of course this again is nothing for an average user and should be done by a professional who has experience with RAID systems.

For instance I would try that myself only if the data is not essential, like a mp3/movie archive which is 'nice-t0-have' but not a problem if the data is lost.

Most harddisk data recovery software will only work on a single drive, and maybe be able to recover data fragments (because the data for each file is spread over both disks). It actually depends on the RAID0 algorithm how big those data junks are. I guess small files might not be fragmented at all, but I do not have any experience on that matter.

The recovered data of fragmented files will be of very limited use, and most file types will not be accessible by the associated program and just report a 'corrupted file' error message or similar. You might be able to extract fragments of some text based formats, but it will be cumbersome work and, again, the results will be very disappointing. For instance from a Word or PDF document you will not be able to retrieve any formatting and layout information (if the file has been spread over 2 disks), just fragments of raw text.

I would consider that your last choice if you don't find a way to fix the 2nd harddrive and restore the RAID.

welo

Thank you welo.

Sorry if i missed out some information. You are mostly correct, after some research I think 2 things are broke.

• The 2nd disk: It did not even try to spin (no sound of any kind) when connected individually to a computer. Two Pantip shops that I went to thought it is because of the RAID setup. But after some research, I realize that the disk should spin up when connected individually, regardless of the original setup or use. So I conclude that the some thing is wrong with the 2nd disk but not sure what exactly.
  

• Lacie box controller: The burnt component was on the only one big circuit board inside the box. I presume it is the Lacie box controller circuit and not the individual disk controller, because when connected separately the first disk spins up fine.
  

These are bad news. 1) It may be hard to find people at Pantip to fix the broken 2nd disk. After these series of trips to Pantip, I didn't find many experts that I could trust. 2) The component on the circuit will definitely need to be replaced, and unlikely that any one has it, because Lacie is not widely used here. 3) Nearly impossible to find an identical box to try and switch/swap to hopefully get to the data.

So, my conclusion is to have Maxell Thailand try to recover data, if they can. They distribute Lacie here and has the service so they are my best bet, at least 10,000 baht but there are some of my works that I need in the drive, so this is sad and frustrating for a few weeks now.

Thanks very much for sharing your opinion/knowledge, really appreciate it.

[guudboy]

Invest in a Drobo for your next external storage devices.

Or qnap, but only when you really want to protect your data. I have invested in one of those beasts and they are expensive but you get safety back for it . IMHO its only viable if your either rich or a business.

My Qnap 459 pro has 4 1tb drives in raid 5 and that means 3tb of safe space. I also let it back up automaticaly to a an USB drive every night. (my computer is turned off at that time). Later i will set it up that it also backs up to an internet server.

But for me my data means that i can make a living without it im nothing. I loose my income then.

Going to such extremes is stupid if you just backup some pictures or mp3's

Robblok, Thanks very much for sharing your view.

I think I will have Maxell Thailand try to recover data, if they can. They distribute Lacie here and has the service, components, so they are my best bet, at least 10,000 baht but there are some of my works that I need in the drive, so this is sad and frustrating for a few weeks now.

Once this problem is resolved. I will def. consider upgrading to a more reliable product as you mentioned. I will also get the UPS (some sort of battery and electrical stabilizer) that I now realize is a necessity in Thailand.

Thanks very much for sharing your opinion/knowledge, really appreciate it.

[robblok]

Invest in a Drobo for your next external storage devices.

Or qnap, but only when you really want to protect your data. I have invested in one of those beasts and they are expensive but you get safety back for it . IMHO its only viable if your either rich or a business.

My Qnap 459 pro has 4 1tb drives in raid 5 and that means 3tb of safe space. I also let it back up automaticaly to a an USB drive every night. (my computer is turned off at that time). Later i will set it up that it also backs up to an internet server.

But for me my data means that i can make a living without it im nothing. I loose my income then.

Going to such extremes is stupid if you just backup some pictures or mp3's

Robblok, Thanks very much for sharing your view.

I think I will have Maxell Thailand try to recover data, if they can. They distribute Lacie here and has the service, components, so they are my best bet, at least 10,000 baht but there are some of my works that I need in the drive, so this is sad and frustrating for a few weeks now.

Once this problem is resolved. I will def. consider upgrading to a more reliable product as you mentioned. I will also get the UPS (some sort of battery and electrical stabilizer) that I now realize is a necessity in Thailand.

Thanks very much for sharing your opinion/knowledge, really appreciate it.

I have lost data from my clients in the past (emails harddrive with mozilla backup got corrupt) It was real frustrating and after that i started thinking what would happen if i really lost a lot of data. My income would be gone, so i decided to invest some money.

It all depends on how important the data is, you could always go for manual backups (copying it yourself) That would save money but in general people tend to forget to make those backups (i know i do) and then when you need it you dont have the latest version of your data.

I got an UPS too after loosing my excel for a few times in a power outage (just seconds usually) i decided to get one of those too.

Ill give you a few suggestions, i have learned a bit from buying stuff.

First off you could buy a western digital my book that has raid1 (you can connect it with USB or fire wire). Your pretty safe then and its one of the cheaper solutions (make sure you get the raid 1 ones and you have to configure it)

I got a Q-NAP 459 Turbo but that is an big investment.

I got it set up with raid 5 so my data is safe, but it also makes an copy to an usb drive everynight (the q-nap is a standalone server so it does it when the computer is off and im asleep)

I will also set it up to backup to the internet every night while i sleep (havent done it yet because its real much data)

This solution might be overkill for you so first think about what you want then buy it.

I also bought a cheaper buffalo NAS station that i could put in raid but it was unfortunately a waste of money it wasn't fast enough for me and limited to what i wanted. So that is now gathering dust and i lost money on it. My advice look around ask around and buy only if your really sure.

The good thing of an extra internet backup is that when there is fire you loose everything at your home... also your data. So normal backups stored in your home arent safe then. Just think about it.

[welo]

OK, I've been re-reading the whole thread again and it seems we are still missing out on the most important fact - how does the LaCie box write the data to the disks.

I assumed it is set that it uses RAID0 which means it spreads data over the 2 drives to increase performance. This is deduced from what you said that the LaCie support told you ('proprietary RAID0').

But actually the 'LaCie 2big Dual' supports various modes. Not sure if this is your model but I assume that most of similar LaCie boxes support different modes.

You write that 'The drive is nearly full and about half of the 2TB is critical data'. If your drive showed up on your PC with a capacity of about 2TB (instead of about 1TB) then you probably configured it in one of the non-mirror modes (bad!). Still, the LaCie drive I googled supports a RAID0 mode as well as a 'concatenated' mode. The latter might be considerably easier to recover, since files are not (necessarily) spread over two disks. It is sometimes referred to as SPAN or JBOD (whereas JBOD can also refer to usage as 2 individual drives). On this model one uses a rotary switch on the enclosure to configure the mode.

So what is the exact model of LaCie box you have, and what mode was it configured to use. Did you have 2TB available or (considerably) less?

I also recommend going with a professional company, maybe Maxell, though I would clarify those questions before. Then you can provide more detailed information about the state of your box and they should be able to tell you before if they can recover data or not and how much it will cost.

EDIT: Of course do not mess around with the mode switch - your box is not operational but still, switching modes would re-initialize the RAID and delete any data, so better avoid any risk.

welo

Edited April 16, 2010 by welo

[guudboy]

OK, I've been re-reading the whole thread again and it seems we are still missing out on the most important fact - how does the LaCie box write the data to the disks.

I assumed it is set that it uses RAID0 which means it spreads data over the 2 drives to increase performance. This is deduced from what you said that the LaCie support told you ('proprietary RAID0').

But actually the 'LaCie 2big Dual' supports various modes. Not sure if this is your model but I assume that most of similar LaCie boxes support different modes.

You write that 'The drive is nearly full and about half of the 2TB is critical data'. If your drive showed up on your PC with a capacity of about 2TB (instead of about 1TB) then you probably configured it in one of the non-mirror modes (bad!). Still, the LaCie drive I googled supports a RAID0 mode as well as a 'concatenated' mode. The latter might be considerably easier to recover, since files are not (necessarily) spread over two disks. It is sometimes referred to as SPAN or JBOD (whereas JBOD can also refer to usage as 2 individual drives). On this model one uses a rotary switch on the enclosure to configure the mode.

So what is the exact model of LaCie box you have, and what mode was it configured to use. Did you have 2TB available or (considerably) less?

I also recommend going with a professional company, maybe Maxell, though I would clarify those questions before. Then you can provide more detailed information about the state of your box and they should be able to tell you before if they can recover data or not and how much it will cost.

EDIT: Of course do not mess around with the mode switch - your box is not operational but still, switching modes would re-initialize the RAID and delete any data, so better avoid any risk.

welo

Hey Welo, thanks for your post.

My Lacie is called "Ethernet Big Disk" It is about 1.5 year old but Lacie had since upgraded this line so it's no longer on their site but still on Newegg and Amazon

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16822154182

http://www.amazon.com/LaCie-301239U-Ethern...d/dp/B000RL8K9U

Because of my limited knowledge I don't know if the disk uses or supports different modes. I am inclined to say no because i have read their instruction manual many times and never familiar with such options. Also I always see the drive as one single drive at 2TB capacity. I attached some documents with this post.

I have wasted much time and worry into this, now I am ready to have Maxell charge me and get this over with. Praying for the best

Thanks again for your post and opinions.

ethernetbigdisk.pdf

ethernetbigdisk_en.pdf

[robblok]

I read both manuals quickly and never saw anything about raid in there. Has anyone actually connected one of the drives to a computer and tried to get the data off. I mean directly connected it with a sata cable and power just like a normal drive ?

[welo]

I was hoping that you own this model.

It seems that this model doesn't use RAID0 but just the mentioned simpler 'concatenation' mode called SPAN or JPOD.

Few facts about the Lacie Big Disk Ethernet (1TB)

• It is Using a custom built Linux to run
  
• It uses JBOD (linear / span) to build a 1TB disk out of two 500GB.
  

source: http://snorripall.com/recovering-data-from-lacie-big-disk

I assume that the 2TB model works the same, even though we cannot rule out that your model is newer and uses a different mode, but I very much doubt it.

Based on the linked website and the comments posted there it is possible to connect the individual harddisks from the LaCie box to a PC directly and use Linux to access the data.

There seems to be nothing 'proprietary' about the LaCie box other than it runs Linux and uses software RAID drivers to build a single large partition based on two physical drives. Seems I was right about the LaCie support not being technically accurate.

My conclusion (assuming that the information given on the linked website is correct):

Data on the first harddisk should be mostly recoverable in any case (no matter whether the second harddisk can be fixed or not), since the LaCie box just spans the two individual drives to one large logical drive in a linear way - meaning any file written is not necessarily spread over the two drives, but defragmentation might still result into parts of a file being split between drives, especially for large files.

Your second harddisk still needs a non-trivial repair (switching electronics with an identical drive).

Assuming that the second harddisk can be fixed and the magnetic platters and therefore the data is not corrupted, it is possible to access the data even without the identical LaCie drive. I would not consider this task trivial but doable by an advanced user / technician with some Linux skills.

Still, if Maxell can do the whole process for 1x.xxx,- 10.000,- THB I would go for it, especially if it includes the fixed harddisk (updated after EDIT below)

Just not let them dramatize the RAID recovery process which is fairly simple (if the actual data on the second harddrive is not corrupted!!) - I'd consider fixing the electronics on the second harddisk to be the difficult part of the job, but maybe that's because I'm software engineer and I don't like hardware stuff like that

EDIT: well, doesn't seem to hard to change a harddisk's logic board... http://www.deadharddrive.com/

A basic electronic system failure.

Really here we are talking about power spikes or surges that affect the controller board of the hard disk. This then knocks out the hard disk and the BIOS has no idea it exists anymore. You will often see a burn if you take the drive out and have a look. You will here no spinnning at power on, the drive is effectively dead. source: http://data-recovery.mirandasbeach.com/

welo

Edited April 16, 2010 by welo

[guudboy]

I was hoping that you own this model.

It seems that this model doesn't use RAID0 but just the mentioned simpler 'concatenation' mode called SPAN or JPOD.

Few facts about the Lacie Big Disk Ethernet (1TB)

• It is Using a custom built Linux to run
  
• It uses JBOD (linear / span) to build a 1TB disk out of two 500GB.
  

source: http://snorripall.com/recovering-data-from-lacie-big-disk

I assume that the 2TB model works the same, even though we cannot rule out that your model is newer and uses a different mode, but I very much doubt it.

Based on the linked website and the comments posted there it is possible to connect the individual harddisks from the LaCie box to a PC directly and use Linux to access the data.

There seems to be nothing 'proprietary' about the LaCie box other than it runs Linux and uses software RAID drivers to build a single large partition based on two physical drives. Seems I was right about the LaCie support not being technically accurate.

My conclusion (assuming that the information given on the linked website is correct):

Data on the first harddisk should be mostly recoverable in any case (no matter whether the second harddisk can be fixed or not), since the LaCie box just spans the two individual drives to one large logical drive in a linear way - meaning any file written is not necessarily spread over the two drives, but defragmentation might still result into parts of a file being split between drives, especially for large files.

Your second harddisk still needs a non-trivial repair (switching electronics with an identical drive).

Assuming that the second harddisk can be fixed and the magnetic platters and therefore the data is not corrupted, it is possible to access the data even without the identical LaCie drive. I would not consider this task trivial but doable by an advanced user / technician with some Linux skills.

Still, if Maxell can do the whole process for 1x.xxx,- 10.000,- THB I would go for it, especially if it includes the fixed harddisk (updated after EDIT below)

Just not let them dramatize the RAID recovery process which is fairly simple (if the actual data on the second harddrive is not corrupted!!) - I'd consider fixing the electronics on the second harddisk to be the difficult part of the job, but maybe that's because I'm software engineer and I don't like hardware stuff like that

EDIT: well, doesn't seem to hard to change a harddisk's logic board... http://www.deadharddrive.com/

A basic electronic system failure.

Really here we are talking about power spikes or surges that affect the controller board of the hard disk. This then knocks out the hard disk and the BIOS has no idea it exists anymore. You will often see a burn if you take the drive out and have a look. You will here no spinnning at power on, the drive is effectively dead. source: http://data-recovery.mirandasbeach.com/

welo

Thanks welo.

My primary concern is the data. Based on your opinion, however, the broken parts may need to be fixed before we can even get to the data recovery.

1) The burnt circuit board needs repair, and I am guessing that only Lacie affiliates have those exact spare parts. I hope they do have parts or identical drives.

2) The second disk needs repair, there may be someone at Pantip that can do this but it's no simple task.

Both problems point to Maxell, coz I don't know anyone at Pantip can fixed both items (plus the component). Quick question, other than Maxell, do u happen to know anyone/anyshop in Bangkok that you know or would trust to do this?

Edited April 16, 2010 by guudboy

[guudboy]

I was hoping that you own this model.

It seems that this model doesn't use RAID0 but just the mentioned simpler 'concatenation' mode called SPAN or JPOD.

Few facts about the Lacie Big Disk Ethernet (1TB)

• It is Using a custom built Linux to run
  
• It uses JBOD (linear / span) to build a 1TB disk out of two 500GB.
  

source: http://snorripall.com/recovering-data-from-lacie-big-disk

I assume that the 2TB model works the same, even though we cannot rule out that your model is newer and uses a different mode, but I very much doubt it.

Based on the linked website and the comments posted there it is possible to connect the individual harddisks from the LaCie box to a PC directly and use Linux to access the data.

There seems to be nothing 'proprietary' about the LaCie box other than it runs Linux and uses software RAID drivers to build a single large partition based on two physical drives. Seems I was right about the LaCie support not being technically accurate.

My conclusion (assuming that the information given on the linked website is correct):

Data on the first harddisk should be mostly recoverable in any case (no matter whether the second harddisk can be fixed or not), since the LaCie box just spans the two individual drives to one large logical drive in a linear way - meaning any file written is not necessarily spread over the two drives, but defragmentation might still result into parts of a file being split between drives, especially for large files.

Your second harddisk still needs a non-trivial repair (switching electronics with an identical drive).

Assuming that the second harddisk can be fixed and the magnetic platters and therefore the data is not corrupted, it is possible to access the data even without the identical LaCie drive. I would not consider this task trivial but doable by an advanced user / technician with some Linux skills.

Still, if Maxell can do the whole process for 1x.xxx,- 10.000,- THB I would go for it, especially if it includes the fixed harddisk (updated after EDIT below)

Just not let them dramatize the RAID recovery process which is fairly simple (if the actual data on the second harddrive is not corrupted!!) - I'd consider fixing the electronics on the second harddisk to be the difficult part of the job, but maybe that's because I'm software engineer and I don't like hardware stuff like that

EDIT: well, doesn't seem to hard to change a harddisk's logic board... http://www.deadharddrive.com/

A basic electronic system failure.

Really here we are talking about power spikes or surges that affect the controller board of the hard disk. This then knocks out the hard disk and the BIOS has no idea it exists anymore. You will often see a burn if you take the drive out and have a look. You will here no spinnning at power on, the drive is effectively dead. source: http://data-recovery.mirandasbeach.com/

welo

I am placing all hope on Maxell. But, for what it's worth, I attached here the log from Lacie drive. I don't understand any of it, but it your mentioning of Linux reminded me of this log, coz I was doing some search on this before but didn't understand it. Lacie said only that all that this log said was that problem was not a software failure. But may be you may have some more idea/understanding from it.

Thanks again.

edmini_log.txt

[welo]

Some thoughts derived from the log file:

• Operating System in use is indeed a custom Linux build, Kernel version 2.6.12.6
  
• Filesystem used is XFS - XFS, originally developed by Silicon Graphics and then Open Sourced, is supported in all major Linux distributions as of v2.4 - it is not unique to LaCie boxes at all!
  
• The drivers/software used supports various modes ('linear concatenation' as well as RAID0)

  md: linear personality registered as nr 1
  md: raid0 personality registered as nr 2
  md: raid1 personality registered as nr 3
  md: raid10 personality registered as nr 9

  from the log I cannot tell which mode is used. The website I cited yesterday stated 'linear', but we can't be sure.
  
• The first harddisk contains 3 partitions: one for the OS, one for the swap file, and one data partition. Only the latter is XFS. Based on the website cited yesterday the second harddisk does not contain a proper partition table, just the XFS filesystem.
  Hence if you connect the second harddrive to a PC, and even if it did spin up, you would not see a proper partition in most cases (including running MS Windows), the drive appearing empty or unreadable.
  
• The LaCie box still seems to work and is able to boot from the first harddisk, starting up the OS and everything, but fails when starting the XFS data partition.

  md: md0 stopped.
  md: bind<sda2>
  XFS: SB read failed

  sda2 is on the first harddisk, I guess the 'SB read failed' error message is triggered when trying to access the second harddisk.
  The second harddisk is not detected at all (this usually happens very early in the startup process)

  sda: sda1 < sda5 sda6 sda7 sda8 sda9 > sda2
  kernel: Attached scsi disk sda at scsi1, channel 0, id 0, lun 0

  Only sda, no sdb, meaning no 2nd harddisk detected at all.
  
• The beginning of the log file could be explained by the failing second harddrive, causing errors during file access (XFS), then causing the system to shutdown

  Jan 1 18:05:25 (none) user.alert kernel: Filesystem "md0": Corruption of in-memory data detected. Shutting down filesystem: md0
  Jan 1 18:05:25 (none) user.alert kernel: Please umount the filesystem, and rectify the problem(s)

  Upon next boot the 2nd harddisk is not detected anymore.
  

OK, that's a lot of tech talk, so let's get back to your questions.

I'm a bit confused about what about the LaCie box electronics is broken exactly, since the system obviously still works. My guess is that maybe a power surge damaged a component in the LaCie box that provides power to the second harddisk and at the same time also damaged electronic components on the harddisk itself. But this is just a wild guess.

But yes, if you want to fix the LaCie box (not talking about the harddisk) it is best to replace the affected electronics board completely, and this has to be an original spare part. (If the damage is only to an easily replaceable component like a capacitor it might be fixed instead of replaced, but I doubt that).

The point is that there are ways to access the data on the 2 harddisks (after repairing the 2nd) without the LaCie box. Keep this in mind to find the best and most economic solution for you.

About fixing the 2nd harddisk: the real problem there is finding the exact harddisk model and revision to match your drive. The disks itself are standard harddisks, nothing specific to LaCie. LaCie probably made a large order/contract with one of the major manufacturers (Seagate, Maxtor, Hitachi,...) and therefore should have matching models available. Don't know if Maxell Thailand keeps a stock of harddisk for this purpose though.

However, I guess you could always just take the logic board from the first harddisk, switch it to the 2nd, restore the data to another drive of similar capacity, and then put the logic board back on the first disk...

Unfortunately I don't know anybody in Bangkok who I could recommend. I'm sure that there are, at Pantip they do a lot of hard-core hardware fixing, but I just don't know a lot of people there

And since your data is valueable to you, I just can't recommend to ask around - I think it was already quite a bit risky to let some shops mess around with the harddisks. There are very talented people around, but you don't necessarily end up with those when shopping around for a tech.

Did you contact Maxell already for details. I mean 10.000 THB up can mean a lot of things. I would push for a more detailed quote. If you want I can help with a summary of what we found out. Do the have English speaking staff?

welo

[guudboy]

Hey Welo,

Thank you very much for reading the log for me. I will call Maxell tomorrow for an appraisal, based on what I know so far. I can speak Thai and will tell them the following:

Problem:

2TB Lacie drive could be detected but data could not be accessed. Based on the Drive Log, the drive was able to boot from the first harddisk, starting up the OS and everything, but failed when starting the XFS data partition, probably triggered when the drive tried to access the second disk and failed. Likely cause is component damage after a surge of electricity. Both inside disks are Samsung brand.

Condition of the Drive:

• Main electronic board (Lacie Box electronic board): Has a small burnt component, but not sure if this is the only cause of the problem.
  
• First Disk: Identified as healthy when directly connected to a Windows PC. Noticeable partitions, but haven't attempted to recovered the data.
  
• Second Disk: Didn't spin up at all, could be damaged electronic components (logid board) on this disk.
  

Data recovery:

-Fix the second disk or swapping the electronic components (logic board) between an identical Samsung hard disk (i.e. the first disk) and the damaged one.

Repair:

-After fixing the second disk, fix the main electronic board (Lacie Box electronic board) with Maxell's spare part.

I hope this gives them better idea about the problem, whether they can fix it, and how much. I will also send them the log. Please let me know if you think there's something I'm missing. Otherwise, thanks for sharing your knowledge, I hope I don't have to bother you again with problems like these...haha

Thank you--GB

[welo]

Good summary! Respect!

Just one point:

Your main problem is the broken second harddisk, which is completely silent when connected to any power source (not spinning up, no noise at all, even when connected to the power source of another PC). I would somehow make that the first point in your problem description since other problems derive from this one.

Not sure how people will react to YOU telling THEM how to fix the problem, especially in Thailand But since you obviously speak Thai well enough to describe all this tech stuff, I guess you know how to handle that without pissing them off LOL

You might ask them some questions in addition to your description:

• Do they think switching the logic board will fix the 2nd harddisk and that the data is not corrupted?
  
• Do they keep disks in stock for those purpose (A) or will they have to switch the board with the 1st (working) harddisk (?
  
• If (A) can you keep the repaired 2nd harddisk, and if ( will they copy the data to a suitable harddisk that can be used in the LaCie box alongside the working 1st harddisk?**
  
• IF the data on the 2nd harddrive is corrupted (meaning damage to the magnetic platters like bad blocks) how does this affect the costs.
  
• Can the data from the first harddrive be recovered even if the 2nd disk cannot be repaired?
  
• 
  

**My guess is that the 2 harddrives in the LaCie RAID don't necessarily have to be of the same model, mostly a properly sized disk will do it.

One last question to you? Is it correct that the device is still starting up? I assume that you retrieved the log file via web interface or telnet.

Good luck!

Keep me updated what's going on!

welo

EDIT: Btw here is a guy on the forum that works/runs a company for professional data recovery services.

Edited April 18, 2010 by welo

[guudboy]

hey Welo.

I don't know if the drive will startup again. Didn't dare restarting the drive after 3 shops already took it apart. The log was downloaded when the drive first failed, but I didn't pay attention after Lacie Tech support told me that the log said nothing.

haha, good point, will def. try to not to sound condescending when speaking to them, just a combination of helplessness and frustration, thats all.

Thanks for your help. Will def. keep u posted!

[guudboy]

Hi Welo,

I hope you are still around and don't mind helping with some more questions.

Update:

Maxwell was not interested in taking my case, they had me waited for the past 2 weeks. So, today I took the drive to Pantip again. The repairman suggested we first tested the dud by swapping the electronics from the healthy disk. It worked, the disk spun up, using the electronic from the healthy disk.

I have some more questions, if you don't mind....

- When we connected the first disk to PC, it showed the partitions and show the capacity used. But when we connected the second drive (the problem disk), it only showed the capacity but then said "unused". Is this an indication of a problem with the disk itself, even though the electronic is now working?? -- P.S. Please note that this is a RAID0 that runs Linux and we were looking at the information using Windows.

- Now that we know we can run both disks (albeit using the same electronics), the guy said he would use recovery software to extract data from each disk on to a 2TB Western Digital drive that I gave him. Will you please explain a little about the process of the recovery and transfer data, because this is a RAID0 and it runs Linux?

- Assuming that we can access data on both disks and transfer them onto my WD drive, will I be able just access and use the data immediately? I meant, will there be incompatibility issue i.e., Linux vs Windows, Lacie vs. WD, or some restrictions about data access from the recovered data from 2 RAID0 disks??

Again, I'd really appreciate your advice.

Thanks again. !!

[welo]

I hope you are still around and don't mind helping with some more questions.

Sure! You're afraid that I was one of the Farangs injured during the riots?

Sorry to hear that Maxwell didn't help, but your report about the Pantip repairs sounds good to me.

Before we start I want you to understand a view tech terms, so you don't get to confused with my writing:

harddisk - OK, we know what this is - the physical device

partition - a contained data area on the disk, a logical structure. A harddrive can be devided into one or more partitions.

partition table - a small block of information at the very beginning of a harddisk that contains information about how this disk is devided into partitions (number, size, etc).

file system - a raw partition cannot be used to read/write data yet, it has to be formatted with a specific file system. The file system is a way of organizing directories and files within a partition. The format process creates all required structures within a partition, basically sets up the partition to allow data to be written and read.

*****

The most important thing during the whole process is that you DO NOT WRITE to the two disks, only read. As long as the two disks are not modified, you can try again and again to retrieve the data until you succeed.

*****

Foremost this means no copying/deleting/formatting/partitioning or any kind of manipulation of the data/structure on the two disks. You should make sure that any program you run to access the disks does not execute any write operations.

So for the first hdd this means that even if you can read the partition on Windows don't fiddle around with it. Windows cannot access the file structure anyway, because it doesn't support the file system - so you should be pretty safe here. On the other hand there is no real reason to connect the drives to Windows any more. There is a minor risk that any OS or application might want to format, initialize or do-whatever with the two disks since they appear empty or not accessible. Only a very untalented person would press YES/OK on such a dialog.

So I'm a bit paranoid here, but just want to point out that accidents like this CAN happen - so just watch out

- When we connected the first disk to PC, it showed the partitions and show the capacity used. But when we connected the second drive (the problem disk), it only showed the capacity but then said "unused". Is this an indication of a problem with the disk itself, even though the electronic is now working?? -- P.S. Please note that this is a RAID0 that runs Linux and we were looking at the information using Windows.

From what I read on the internet this is to be expected. The first and second harddrives differ in that respect: the first actually contains 2 'standard' partitions (system, data) and hence a valid partition table (information about the structure).

The second drive does not contain any standard partition table, I remember reading that one guy said the data/partition is created 'directly on the disk' - whatever that means exactly, I assume that any standard Operating System (Windows, Linux) would not recognize that structure and show it as 'unused', 'unallocated' or whatsoever.

Do NOT FIDDLE AROUND with any harddisk partitioning tool or partition recovery tool on those drives!

- Now that we know we can run both disks (albeit using the same electronics), the guy said he would use recovery software to extract data from each disk on to a 2TB Western Digital drive that I gave him. Will you please explain a little about the process of the recovery and transfer data, because this is a RAID0 and it runs Linux?

As I pointed out before, the most important aspect with any data recovery software is that the software DOES NOT WRITE any data back to the disk that is to be recovered. Any serious data recovery software nowadays follows that guideline. Check the website of the software that will be used and it will probably state that somewhere.

On the matter of data recovery software: there are different kind of disaster scenarios involving hard-drives. Many deal with damage to the magnetic surface (bad blocks), and will try to find those and recover data from those sectors. This is NOT what you need (though often applications try to cover all aspects of harddisk recovery)

I assume that guy wants to use software that is able to read data without partition table or file table (meaning the information where to find files on the harddrive is lost, but the files are still there). This happens when somebody accidentally formats a partition, or deletes the partition table information or deletes data on the drive. Of course this might also happen as a result of physical damage (bad sectors) and therefore those areas are overlapping.

Data Recovery Tools often provide several features to retrieve 'lost' data. In case of an inaccessible partition they will try to restore the partition table first so that data is then accessible by standard means. If this doesn't work out they will scan sector by sector of the hard-disk reading the data and trying to identify the structure (files). This is a lengthy process and stresses the hard-drive due to the extensive read operations. In case of a physically damaged harddrive this will often worsen the situation - since your harddrives most likely don't have any damage to the magnetic surface it should be OK. But we don't know for sure if the damage was limited to the electronics or if the magnetic platters have been damaged, too.

If your drive doesn't make any weird sounds when spinning up it should be fine. Check out the audio files on the following website (on the right) - this is the sound physically damaged harddrives produce.

http://www.acsdata.com/lacie-data-recovery.htm

I guess the technician at Pantip can identify a damaged harddrive - it happens often enough in 'overheated' Thailand - and he would have told you.

OK, back to the data recovery process: the data recovery application of course has to understand the file system that is used on the 'damaged' drive. I couldn't find information on which file system the LaCie box uses. I guess it is a standard Linux file system like Ext2, Ext3, but it also might be something less ordinary such as ReiserFS. The data recovery tool used will need to support that specific file system used. Not sure if it determines the file system type automatically.

Some tools only work with Windows file systems (FAT32, NTFS) but most professional tools support multiple file systems including various Linux types.

- Assuming that we can access data on both disks and transfer them onto my WD drive, will I be able just access and use the data immediately? I meant, will there be incompatibility issue i.e., Linux vs Windows, Lacie vs. WD, or some restrictions about data access from the recovered data from 2 RAID0 disks??

Usually this is a lengthy process (a view hours or even days) - not sure though how long it would take on an otherwise healthy drive - usually recovery processes also have to deal with bad blocks which prolongs the process. So honestly... I don't know.

If the recovered files can be accessed from Windows depends on the file system used on the WD drive. I guess that recovery software should be able to write recovered data to a Windows (NTFS or FAT32) partition even if the recovered partition has a Linux file system. But this depends on the recovery software used.

More Advice (aka my take on that problem)

I recommend duplicating the 2 drives to 2 other drives before proceeding. You can use disk imaging software to create a 'copy' of the two drives even though the partition and file system is not accessible or even supported. This is a low level binary copy that just copies bit by bit from the source to the target drive. So it doesn't matter what partition or file system is used.

The resulting disks should be identical data-wise. Any recovery process could be done on those drives then.

Of course this is an extra step that is not absolutely necessary. It is for data safety in case anything goes wrong during the recovery process.

To be honest, I am not absolutely sure if the target drives just have to have the same (or larger) size than your original drives or if they have to have same 'geometry' (same number of sectors etc). I think this is not necessary.

So my take would be to duplicate the two drives first, then connect the duplicated drives to a PC and run Linux (e.g. Ubuntu Live CD or any other) to access the RAID. Big advantage: no need to 'recover' data in a lengthy process, just access it. I guess that people might be scared of the Linux part, but with some Linux experience and the website I posted last time, it is a matter of 15 minutes to get it up and running (excluding the duplication process beforehand)

You could even try to get the Lacie box up and running again. From the log files you showed me I assume that the box is still functional. My guess - and of course that cannot be anything other than a guess since I've never seen the box in real - is that maybe only the power supply to the drives is broken, and the rest still working. You could try to power the drives from an external power supply (a standard PC power supply). Maybe the box still works that way. That way you don't even have to use Linux.

Of course it's a risk connecting the drives to the box, that's why the disks should be duplicated.

welo

Edited May 5, 2010 by welo

[guudboy]

Hey Welo,

Hehe, that's not what I meant. I thought you already left the country, hehe.

Thank you so much for this info. I think my repair guy moved in the right direction, he did say something about ext but stopped after noticing that I was clueless. It's been 3 days still no news, so I hope he has been careful enough to not accidentally wrote something as he tried the recovery.

I'll send him your suggestion first thing morning, hope he understands english. Thanks very much for spending time writing me these suggestions, always very helpful. I truly appreciated your time. Will keep u posted.

Stay out of trouble!

--GB

[guudboy]

Welo,

Wanted to update on my dead drive situation that you helped me with. "Howto" also asked if I could post the result. It's been awhile but there has been no progress, so i didn't have anything to update.

I left my drive with a guy at Pantip, who knows some guys that know how to fix dead drive and recover data on Linux. After 8 months, with intermittent updates, he finally said to me last week "sorry krub they don't think your drive can be fixed and the data can never be recovered". The one dead disk in the drive would not start up, even when swapping the electronics with the good disk (odd i thought). Also they cannot find a replacement for a small burnt component on the electronic board of the box itself. I frankly don't trust this diagnosis, but after 8 months, Im abit sick of trying to fix it.

I will not name the shop where this guy works coz the guy accepts this as freelance. He also wouldn't detail about those other guys that actually tried to fix my drive either, so no info there. And I wouldn't recommend him or them anyway, given my result.

All this didn't cost me anything (except for the 8-month wait, plus 1,500 Baht deposit, which he will return with my dead drive sometime next week) I have learned to live without those data but I do miss some of the important irreplaceable stuffs, ie. old works, old family pics etc. Someday, I may bring it to someone else to look at again, just sick of it now.

So, thanks again for everything. I appreciate your help.

Happy Holidays !--

P.S. I now need to shop for a new external storage and thinking of NAS RAID5, but not sure which brand or model (some names thrown around this site: Buffalo, Drobo, Qnap). I have yet to read more on this, but any thoughts here?